I don't want more rituals, I don't want more protection (except at the possible expense of Show and Tell), and I don't want more business.
emidln, I've been toying with the idea of cutting two Show and Tell for two Duress (or Thoughtseize), but I've found that that substitution doesn't give you enough blue to reliably use Force while still playing your cantrips. If you were to cut them (say, you were in a metagame where you'd expect to combo out with Tendrils more, but wanted a backup plan against blue in game 1), what modifications would you make? I've been thinking of the following:
1) Cut 4x Force of Will for 4x Duress and substitute 2x Show and Tell for 2x Thoughtseize.
2) Replace 2x Show and Tell with 2x Misdirection.
3) Replace 2x Show and Tell with 2x Ponder.
4) Replace 2x Show and Tell with 2x Counterbalance, possibly removing a Ponder or two for some more.
Any suggestions or am I going dangerously down the wrong route?
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Due to real-life obligations, I am taking a long break from Magic which may include missing the local Legacy GP. Apologies for not being able to keep my threads updated.
I played around with that, basically swapping them for spell pierces (could be misdirection). Basically pre-boards the counters you'd run anyway. If you want you could cut a ponder to run it as a 3-of and free up a SB slot.
I didn't really like it. Dropping the MB bomb density is a mistake imo, but you should play around with it and figure out what works for you.
@Emidln: A+
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Quote from "Warden" »
rsaunder has beautiful eyes. Think of a sunset, sunrise, and cool breeze at the beach rolled into one moment. Now make that moment blue...because those are his eyes
The results were: i won 3 of 5 games, losing the other two because of the storm pile going wrong (i still didn't completely studied this deck and i'm not running LED as i've been having dificulties on finding them, any suggestions about what could substitute them?)
i haven't played the deck yet, but at least i know to not even try unless you've got the led's. what kind of a doomsday pile could you possibly make with out them?
there is absolutly no replacment. I'm working on getting my last couples as well.
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
Finally I've gotten some LED's to playtest the deck.
There's a deffinite learning curve you almost gotta get over; I know at first I started to doubt how to pull it off, but reading more Emidln posts really helped lot. Study some of the 5-card piles he uses.. but also do a lot of "make up as you go", it helped me a lot just messing around, even when I didn't think it'd work 'cause you learn what NOT to do sometimes and that was almost as important lol. I've gotten to the point of being able to pull consistent kills within a few turns, but at first it was hard to do. Trying to decide whether to go for meditate or not was confusing at first and fudging up on colors and rookie mistakes is all part of the process so I don't mess it up in a real tourney lol.
The one suggestion I noticed that got me confused was Blazing Archon. Was this to be used with S&T only, 'cause it seems like cheating it into play with DD would deck you?
You can put another Doomsday at the bottom of your pile to keep your library full, if needed.
I do this with almost every emrakul pile I build. Only problem is that with the merfolk matchup (where archon shines) they're likely to counter anything you try. I'd call archon as mostly a show and tell target because of the matchups where it comes in. Against merfolk you board out doomsday.dec, especially shelldock since its so dangerous to run into stifle, waste, and a million other little things. Same with tempo thresh.
In other news I cut archon down to a 1-of in favor of an iona. Pretty happy with this so far.
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Quote from "Warden" »
rsaunder has beautiful eyes. Think of a sunset, sunrise, and cool breeze at the beach rolled into one moment. Now make that moment blue...because those are his eyes
To those of you wondering if this deck can Top 8 - YES.
I got steamrolled by it, playing Bant Survival (with maindecked Meddling Mage, even!), in the Top 8 at Super Games in Roswell, GA last Wednesday. There were 38 people there.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
I've played it to Top 4 at my last couple local tournaments, just steamrolling my opponents. Even when I'm half asleep, not paying attention at all, the deck does the work for me
If you know your piles, you just have to be able to look for scenareos, combinations, and variations. After developing some proficency with doomsday's decision trees the deck should feel a little auto-piloty.
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Quote from "Warden" »
rsaunder has beautiful eyes. Think of a sunset, sunrise, and cool breeze at the beach rolled into one moment. Now make that moment blue...because those are his eyes
You can put another Doomsday at the bottom of your pile to keep your library full, if needed.
I mean, not really. Unless you mean to say that you've played all of the other 4 doomsday cards. You have VERY diminishing returns with this strategy.
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Asking people to remove quotes in their signatures is tyranny! If I can't say something just because someone's feelings are hurt then no one would ever be able to say anything! Political correctness is stupid.
I mean, not really. Unless you mean to say that you've played all of the other 4 doomsday cards. You have VERY diminishing returns with this strategy.
If you only need one more turn, which is the situation that you'll run into most often, then stacking 1-2 more cards is an excellent play.
My most frequent pre-board stack (where this might be relevant) :
Isle
Eldrazi
FoW
Blue Card // dark rit
Doomsday
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Quote from "Warden" »
rsaunder has beautiful eyes. Think of a sunset, sunrise, and cool breeze at the beach rolled into one moment. Now make that moment blue...because those are his eyes
Dear emidln, why must all of your decks have ridiculous nonsensical names? It's a good thing you didn't pioneer Merfolk, or it would be called "The Unbearable Likeness of Being" or something. That being said, I ☺☺☺☺ing love this deck. It's all I'm going to play for the foreseeable future. Nice work.
been playing this for a lil now at local 1.5 tourney and im liking the results i still have to get used to the piles and which ones to go for. honestly i find myself making mistakes with the math. seems one mistake can really screw ya. but i like it, definitely interesting to play
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Am I allowed to print or write out on a piece of paper notes for all the different piles, or is that considered cheating?
I'm just worried about doing the math wrong which seems to happen at times like other people mentioned too.
I'm fairly sure you cannot bring a specific cheat sheet but paper is always allowed for crap like life totals, a thoughtseized "revealed" hand, etc. I'm fairly sure if you go through the pile steps as you play (write down options as you go), that's fine.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I think the rule is that you can bring Notes, but can't refer to them while playing. So you could bring a sheet, look at it before each game while shuffling or whatever, then you have to put the notes away once the game begins.
Also, as Warden said, you can take notes during games, but they can't be the same notes you brought in from before the game started.
@Emidln: I was wondering have you consider testing out Burning wish in this? It seems like it can be a stretch on your manabase but I think having the ability to go get a show and tell, doomsday or tendrils of agony can be pretty good. Of course, then you might have to consider dropping force of wills for more proactive disruption like duress and such.
It's probably not a good idea but just thought I would mention it to you Brandon.
@Emidln: I was wondering have you consider testing out Burning wish in this? It seems like it can be a stretch on your manabase but I think having the ability to go get a show and tell, doomsday or tendrils of agony can be pretty good. Of course, then you might have to consider dropping force of wills for more proactive disruption like duress and such.
It's probably not a good idea but just thought I would mention it to you Brandon.
I'm fairly sure I showed you this list already, but I may not have. It's been making its rounds via PMs and Instant Messenger for awhile. This deck is not Rev614 btw. It's a deck that pulp_fiction calls DDGO. I'd like to keep the decks separate for the moment as they approach the game a little differently:
I'm not yet certain if I want the 4th Doomsday to be wishable.
The wishboard looks large, but the only thing you never side in is 1 Sadistic Sacrement (in matchups where you want this, you often fear enemy sad-sacs so you keep 1 wishable on the assumption that a resolved sad-sac is basically gg). The rest of the stuff is all reasonable to side in when you think you might need it. Vs hatebears, you bring in Deathmark along with Chain of Vapor. Vs Chalices you bring in Meltdown. There are times when you might want to side out 1 Burning Wish for the 4th Doomsday if you play it in the sb (like vs CB). Thoughtseize is likely to come in for most matchups (vs aggro, it's better than a Duress as it can hit hatebears and the lifeloss is mostly irrelevant).
ETW is notably absent the sideboard (where it originally was) as I found that I'd very rarely have Wish + a lot of accel and want to put Goblins on the table.
DDGO, w/ or w/o the splash to Wish (which I believe makes it strictly better) is a more aggressive combo deck than Rev614. It plays many of the same cards and has similar lines of play, but it ups the acceleration and adds another easy way to abuse IGG into the maindeck (via Infernal Tutor). The discard package is better in certain matchups (Merfolk for instance) and it shows that this deck has an improved Merfolk matchup between 6-8 discard and 3-4 Xantid Swarm (you get to stay a Tendrils deck vs them instead of trying to become a Show and Tell deck). You are faster vs aggro, although you give up some vs Dredge (who loses almost every hand you open Force + blue card) and Reanimator (although not much here). It may be in a better position in the current metagame than Rev614 due to its better Merfolk matchup and relatively similar Counterbalance matchup.
I'm fairly sure I showed you this list already, but I may not have. It's been making its rounds via PMs and Instant Messenger for awhile. This deck is not Rev614 btw. It's a deck that pulp_fiction calls DDGO. I'd like to keep the decks separate for the moment as they approach the game a little differently:
I'm not yet certain if I want the 4th Doomsday to be wishable.
The wishboard looks large, but the only thing you never side in is 1 Sadistic Sacrement (in matchups where you want this, you often fear enemy sad-sacs so you keep 1 wishable on the assumption that a resolved sad-sac is basically gg). The rest of the stuff is all reasonable to side in when you think you might need it. Vs hatebears, you bring in Deathmark along with Chain of Vapor. Vs Chalices you bring in Meltdown. There are times when you might want to side out 1 Burning Wish for the 4th Doomsday if you play it in the sb (like vs CB). Thoughtseize is likely to come in for most matchups (vs aggro, it's better than a Duress as it can hit hatebears and the lifeloss is mostly irrelevant).
ETW is notably absent the sideboard (where it originally was) as I found that I'd very rarely have Wish + a lot of accel and want to put Goblins on the table.
DDGO, w/ or w/o the splash to Wish (which I believe makes it strictly better) is a more aggressive combo deck than Rev614. It plays many of the same cards and has similar lines of play, but it ups the acceleration and adds another easy way to abuse IGG into the maindeck (via Infernal Tutor). The discard package is better in certain matchups (Merfolk for instance) and it shows that this deck has an improved Merfolk matchup between 6-8 discard and 3-4 Xantid Swarm (you get to stay a Tendrils deck vs them instead of trying to become a Show and Tell deck). You are faster vs aggro, although you give up some vs Dredge (who loses almost every hand you open Force + blue card) and Reanimator (although not much here). It may be in a better position in the current metagame than Rev614 due to its better Merfolk matchup and relatively similar Counterbalance matchup.
No, I don't believe you did. At least I don't really remember, I just remember you sending me two prototype rev lists with force of will in them.
I like the burning wish version better actually it seems much more intuitive, imo. I am curious though, since I only see 2 burning wish, care to explain why your not running a playset emidln? Wait, nevermind, I didn't see the +2 burning wish at the bottom of your post.
As for not dedicating a slot for empty of the warrens, I totally understand that because there alot of lists that play firespout nowadays to combat merfolks and zoo. The last thing you want to do is have your opponents play more relevant cards against you.
Finished a tourney today and just got beaten 1-3. This is JUST my opinion so take it with a grain of salt ('cause I'll prolly get slammed for this) BUT:
S&T and Shelldock -- good
Storm -- not so good
It just tries to do too many things, leaving it very fragile to... well, everything. I promise, I'm not done testing yet, but I've gone against ANT, Dragon Stompy, mono black control and deadguy ale... and I've taken a few notes. I spent the last week just goldfishing hands and playtesting, it wasn't uncommon getting turn 2, 3 Storms and such, that was never a problem, but against other decks messing your game plan its so hard to pull off. I almost wish I just had a few more removal or bounce, since one game a resolved Magus just ended me :rolleyes::)
It's just way too easy for opponents' Duress/Therapy, Hymns, FoW's, Chalice1's to set you 3 turns back... and the card disadvantage with Mysticals and FoW and quick mana like lotus made it even harder to keep my hand above 3 many times. Deffinitely not down about the losses, I know most the players and they're pretty gg but being able to Storm was a huge let down not 'cause I didn't know how to do it but it was so hard to pull off. :{
one thing that i have done is taken out a ponder in favor of 1 helm of awakening for an alternate storm route. but yes ive also found the control matchup to be a bit difficult, not so much MBC but people siding in things like aura of silence really hurts, and Thorn of Amethyst.
force is always a problem but thats with every deck.
decks ive had most problems with have been UW tempo and Dreadstill
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deadguy and dragon stompy are some of your harder decks. You have to go the combo route against deadguy, as their main game plan against you will be to disrupt your hand. Dragon stompy you want to go show and tell -> emrakul. They have no way of dealing with it short of racing
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BZK! "so swagga' our swagga' got swagga"
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emidln, I've been toying with the idea of cutting two Show and Tell for two Duress (or Thoughtseize), but I've found that that substitution doesn't give you enough blue to reliably use Force while still playing your cantrips. If you were to cut them (say, you were in a metagame where you'd expect to combo out with Tendrils more, but wanted a backup plan against blue in game 1), what modifications would you make? I've been thinking of the following:
1) Cut 4x Force of Will for 4x Duress and substitute 2x Show and Tell for 2x Thoughtseize.
2) Replace 2x Show and Tell with 2x Misdirection.
3) Replace 2x Show and Tell with 2x Ponder.
4) Replace 2x Show and Tell with 2x Counterbalance, possibly removing a Ponder or two for some more.
Any suggestions or am I going dangerously down the wrong route?
Legacy
UWR Miracles UWR
GWB Maverick GWB
GB Elves GB
UBR ANT UBR
RG Combo Lands RG
Vintage
BUG BUG Fish BUG
Modern
GBW
Junk PodMagic: the BuylistingI didn't really like it. Dropping the MB bomb density is a mistake imo, but you should play around with it and figure out what works for you.
@Emidln: A+
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK Level 4 Bad Guy
The results were: i won 3 of 5 games, losing the other two because of the storm pile going wrong (i still didn't completely studied this deck and i'm not running LED as i've been having dificulties on finding them, any suggestions about what could substitute them?)
Do you think this deck can enter a top8 ?
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
there is absolutly no replacment. I'm working on getting my last couples as well.
There's a deffinite learning curve you almost gotta get over; I know at first I started to doubt how to pull it off, but reading more Emidln posts really helped lot. Study some of the 5-card piles he uses.. but also do a lot of "make up as you go", it helped me a lot just messing around, even when I didn't think it'd work 'cause you learn what NOT to do sometimes and that was almost as important lol. I've gotten to the point of being able to pull consistent kills within a few turns, but at first it was hard to do. Trying to decide whether to go for meditate or not was confusing at first and fudging up on colors and rookie mistakes is all part of the process so I don't mess it up in a real tourney lol.
The one suggestion I noticed that got me confused was Blazing Archon. Was this to be used with S&T only, 'cause it seems like cheating it into play with DD would deck you?
GWRUB[EDH] Reaper KingGWRUB
GW[Legacy] BEARS (#1 Threat in America)GW
UR[Legacy] Arcane MeleeUR
[180 classic cube]
In other news I cut archon down to a 1-of in favor of an iona. Pretty happy with this so far.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK Level 4 Bad Guy
[180 classic cube]
I got steamrolled by it, playing Bant Survival (with maindecked Meddling Mage, even!), in the Top 8 at Super Games in Roswell, GA last Wednesday. There were 38 people there.
This deck is stupid powerful.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK Level 4 Bad Guy
I mean, not really. Unless you mean to say that you've played all of the other 4 doomsday cards. You have VERY diminishing returns with this strategy.
If you only need one more turn, which is the situation that you'll run into most often, then stacking 1-2 more cards is an excellent play.
My most frequent pre-board stack (where this might be relevant) :
Isle
Eldrazi
FoW
Blue Card // dark rit
Doomsday
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK Level 4 Bad Guy
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Am I allowed to print or write out on a piece of paper notes for all the different piles, or is that considered cheating?
I'm just worried about doing the math wrong which seems to happen at times like other people mentioned too.
GWRUB[EDH] Reaper KingGWRUB
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I'm fairly sure you cannot bring a specific cheat sheet but paper is always allowed for crap like life totals, a thoughtseized "revealed" hand, etc. I'm fairly sure if you go through the pile steps as you play (write down options as you go), that's fine.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Also, as Warden said, you can take notes during games, but they can't be the same notes you brought in from before the game started.
[180 classic cube]
It's probably not a good idea but just thought I would mention it to you Brandon.
I'm fairly sure I showed you this list already, but I may not have. It's been making its rounds via PMs and Instant Messenger for awhile. This deck is not Rev614 btw. It's a deck that pulp_fiction calls DDGO. I'd like to keep the decks separate for the moment as they approach the game a little differently:
DDGO by Pulp_Fiction:
4 Doomsday
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Wipe Away
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Meditate
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Shelldock Isle
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacomb
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Pithing Needle
2 Infernal Tutor
2 Krosan Grip
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Reverent Silence
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Sadistic Sacrament
Based on that, I've been suggesting this decklist to people:
3-4 Doomsday
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Infernal Tutor
2 Burning Wish
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Meditate
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Shelldock Isle
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Duress
2-3 Thoughtseize
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Infernal Tutor
0-1 Doomsday
1 Thoughtseize
1 Meltdown
1 Deathmark
2 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Extirpate
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Wipe Away
1 Pithing Needle
3 Xantid Swarm
The basic changes from the maindeck:
-1 Wipe Away
-1 Cabal Ritual
(-1 Doomsday)
+2 Burning Wish
(+1 Thoughtseize)
I'm not yet certain if I want the 4th Doomsday to be wishable.
The wishboard looks large, but the only thing you never side in is 1 Sadistic Sacrement (in matchups where you want this, you often fear enemy sad-sacs so you keep 1 wishable on the assumption that a resolved sad-sac is basically gg). The rest of the stuff is all reasonable to side in when you think you might need it. Vs hatebears, you bring in Deathmark along with Chain of Vapor. Vs Chalices you bring in Meltdown. There are times when you might want to side out 1 Burning Wish for the 4th Doomsday if you play it in the sb (like vs CB). Thoughtseize is likely to come in for most matchups (vs aggro, it's better than a Duress as it can hit hatebears and the lifeloss is mostly irrelevant).
ETW is notably absent the sideboard (where it originally was) as I found that I'd very rarely have Wish + a lot of accel and want to put Goblins on the table.
DDGO, w/ or w/o the splash to Wish (which I believe makes it strictly better) is a more aggressive combo deck than Rev614. It plays many of the same cards and has similar lines of play, but it ups the acceleration and adds another easy way to abuse IGG into the maindeck (via Infernal Tutor). The discard package is better in certain matchups (Merfolk for instance) and it shows that this deck has an improved Merfolk matchup between 6-8 discard and 3-4 Xantid Swarm (you get to stay a Tendrils deck vs them instead of trying to become a Show and Tell deck). You are faster vs aggro, although you give up some vs Dredge (who loses almost every hand you open Force + blue card) and Reanimator (although not much here). It may be in a better position in the current metagame than Rev614 due to its better Merfolk matchup and relatively similar Counterbalance matchup.
No, I don't believe you did. At least I don't really remember, I just remember you sending me two prototype rev lists with force of will in them.
I like the burning wish version better actually it seems much more intuitive, imo. I am curious though, since I only see 2 burning wish, care to explain why your not running a playset emidln? Wait, nevermind, I didn't see the +2 burning wish at the bottom of your post.
As for not dedicating a slot for empty of the warrens, I totally understand that because there alot of lists that play firespout nowadays to combat merfolks and zoo. The last thing you want to do is have your opponents play more relevant cards against you.
S&T and Shelldock -- good
Storm -- not so good
It just tries to do too many things, leaving it very fragile to... well, everything. I promise, I'm not done testing yet, but I've gone against ANT, Dragon Stompy, mono black control and deadguy ale... and I've taken a few notes. I spent the last week just goldfishing hands and playtesting, it wasn't uncommon getting turn 2, 3 Storms and such, that was never a problem, but against other decks messing your game plan its so hard to pull off. I almost wish I just had a few more removal or bounce, since one game a resolved Magus just ended me :rolleyes::)
It's just way too easy for opponents' Duress/Therapy, Hymns, FoW's, Chalice1's to set you 3 turns back... and the card disadvantage with Mysticals and FoW and quick mana like lotus made it even harder to keep my hand above 3 many times. Deffinitely not down about the losses, I know most the players and they're pretty gg but being able to Storm was a huge let down not 'cause I didn't know how to do it but it was so hard to pull off. :{
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force is always a problem but thats with every deck.
decks ive had most problems with have been UW tempo and Dreadstill
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