This thing is very nice!
My opinion would be: more counters or disruption, less vials. The may eat a counter but they can even be responded with the bazillion stifles or pridemages in the meta, plus needle is always out there.
Then, I'd add 4 cunning wish MD and a copy of quicken and of orim's chant in the board. This way you could
1) get stifles and manamorphoses from the board
2) get quicken to banefire in response of a shuffle trigger
Also, scout's warning could let you play the guildmage EOT.
I'd cut the azorius, too mana intensive for what they do, for vendilion cliques that can disrupt and block, and the resets and eventually the brain freeze or the stroke of genius.
Ponder and serum visions are nice and powerful, but are even sorcery speed. I don't really know if it is a good idea to keep those ones, I'd rather have a tutor in those spots.
Thanks! About cutting the Vials, and possibly replacing them with Scout's Warning- Everytime I think about it I decide against it. The Vials are very valuable, and allow for us to set up our combo while digging for the other parts of it and countering opposing threats. Vial allows us to circumnavigate almost all creature removal, and that is a huge plus. Simply wait til an opportune time & combo out at instant speed with FoW protection. The main downside with Scout's Warning is that it will require :symw::symu::symu: to put that Izzet Guildmage into play, rather than and then a tap with the Vial. That's a large drawback.
@the Azorius Guildmages: They are pretty dang helpful, and if you've a Training Grounds out, they are hardly mana-intensive. They can stall rather well for you to achieve your combo.
Quote from TheRogue »
less i'm reading your combo wrong it keeps the original copy of manamorphoses on the stack, while izzet makes his copies. that said you could just let the last copy resolve for 2 black instead to power a tendrils of agony.
A sorcery-speed win condition is not worth it when we've access to an instant-speed win condition.
Quote from .nemesis »
Xanth, I love it when you post new deck ideas.
Shucks, thanks! I wasn't sure if anyone would recall much of my past involvement here in the Developing Competitive forum, I've been out of the loop for several months!
Quote from taz »
Why don't you play Lightning Bolt instead of Brain Freeze?
The fewer requirements for red mana the better (as we want to run predominantely blue mana sources), the more blue than non-blue cards the better (for Force of Will).
That being said, I am contemplating running a copy or few of Fire/Ice maindeck. Thoughts?
Quote from Squee, Goblin Nabob »
i would have to agree that words is alot better but the familar gives you mana so you can actually do things. instead of JUST trying to burn them out. i would say 2 words and 1 familar as an optional way out and maybe even as an alt lockdown
These additions are uncessary. The deck can win with the resources it has; it does not need to go infinite.
While it is cute, I don't find it necessary. Sorceries are slower, too. Having the ability to consistently combo out at instant speed is a huge, huge plus.
Quote from Halted Asylum »
I think Muddle the Mixture might be cool to tutor your combo pieces (Guildmage, Manamorphose and maybe Ritual), in the place of some digger (Ponder/Serum Visions).
Again, unnecessary, not pitchable to FoW, and sorcery speed.
Quote from pyro »
This is my new favorite deck in legacy.
You are my hero.
Quote from Practical Joke »
How often/easily can you find those 1-4 creatures and that 1-4 enchantment and the 1-4 vials and the 1-4 manamorphosis out of 60 cards.
This seems like a very fragile combo, even though it's very creative as well. I like this creativity a lot.
A fair point to make, but after the revisions we're looking pretty darn decent in this department. Impulse digs further and at instant speed, Muddle the Mixture can transmute into a variety of choices if needed, Cunning Wish gets us a combo piece or win condition. Keep in mind that the Vials aren't needed to combo out, but they are a huge help Also keep in mind that if you want you can land an early Izzet Guildmage and simply use him to help you dig further by copying Brainstorms, etc.
Quote from Practical Joke »
Isn't it safer to rely on cunning wish so those cards cannot be extracted/discarded and stuff like that.
It shouldn't be any inconvenience considering the combo and it might even bring an additional solution for your difficulties you might face while trying to combo out.
Agreed.
Quote from Practical Joke »
What does happen when your opponent can succesfully cast a STP between the gaining of mana ( when the copying effects goes on the stack and you have no mana in your pool since neither of the manamorphosis's have resolved yet).
You can combo out at instant speed. You can wait until the prime moment. If your opponent is keeping a open, it would behoove you to wait until you have counter backup in the form of Daze or Force of Will. Also, the most obvious way to deal with it:
Quote from .nemesis »
In case you fear removal, you just need to have another mana open to copy a Manamorphose in response and continue to go off on top of the STP/Smother/whatever.
The updated decklist (edited into the OP as well):
Asking people to remove quotes in their signatures is tyranny! If I can't say something just because someone's feelings are hurt then no one would ever be able to say anything! Political correctness is stupid.
Another alternative way to go once you've got the guildmage on the table would be to ramp up using Transmute Artifact with Lion's Eye Diamond and Lotus Bloom providing 2 mana per iteration, and ramping into some kind of finish.
You could go off at sorcery speed with Heartstone instead of Training Day if you put some LED and Lotus Petal/Chrome Mox/SSG in the deck.
A clan-mate of mine has made some excellent suggestions, some of which have also been made by comments in this thread since my last posting.
Quote from Blutsau »
Ghitu Fire should be Comet Storm/Volcanic Geyser, it's an Instant thus a Wish target (and cost less for the same amount of dmg ), if you go off generating :symr::symr: shouldn't be a problem).
A definite change to make. I incorrectly thought Ghitu Fire was an instant, my mistake.
Oona's Grace over Stroke? It's also cheaper and friggin Oona's Grace!
I agree with this change. It's a small difference, but it allows us to Wish an Oona's Grace if we're stalled out and use it on ourselves, and would still be able to use it on our opponent later in the game to force a win. Also, if they counter it when we attempt to resolve it for the win, we should be able to simply play it again. Not that I expect that scenario to happen very often, as typically if the opponent was holding onto a counterspell they'd use it prior when we attempt to go off in the first place.
I'd cut 2 impulse and add 2 SDT.
The latter one makes you get to search for cards every turn again and again.
Impulse does this only once.
Ponder is also quite strong since it looks at 3 cards, make you pick the best one, fetch the rest away. If all cards are good you can have them and if neither is good shuffle them away and take one random ( also seeing 4 cards like impulse does)
Then again, It isn't an instant, but if I see it right you should already have the combo assembled if you want to try and go off at instant speed.
SDT makes your deck a whole lot stronger against discard, making your topdecks a lot stronger. Cards like ponder/brainstorm with fetch make the flow of cards you see a lot faster.
I'm not a fan of Mystical Tutor in here- it doesn't find Training Grounds nor the Guildmages. It can find Muddle the Mixture which can transmute into one, but that is quite a roundabout process.
I'm alright with adding more Ponders in lieu of the two Spell Pierces, but I would definitely prefer those or Impulse to SDT, simply because the guildmage can copy the instants/sorceries but not the SDT.
A lot of win cons were mentioned that are dead cards until they come online as the kill card. Fire // Ice is better because it kills and it can draw cards.
I've thought about it for hours and the more I think about this deck the more I feel it should have white for enlightened tutor.
Another problem I ran into was that (especially if we go three colors) that the deck is always super desperate for mana and fragile to boot.
Enlightened tutor is slow but if you plan on drawing it with brainstorm or the like afterward - that really does eat up a lot of mana.
With white I think meddling mage can earn a spot. Doesn't hurt w/ aether vial if that's still in the list. Protecting yourself from raping discard or other disruption is needed on top of the countersuite imo.
Training grounds seems like a sitting duck for krosan grip or the like. You can't go off in response to that one.
I'm sorry. A "Broadway Nails" commercial just came on. It killed every brain cell I've got.
first of all, awsome deck.
way to bring solidarity into the 21st century. but the reason that deck dropped off the radar, is becuase countertop kills it and other combo decks are just plain faster (ANT and belcher). doesn't this deck fall prey to the same weeknesses?
I feel it should have white for enlightened tutor.... With white I think meddling mage can earn a spot....Training grounds seems like a sitting duck for krosan grip or the like. You can't go off in response to that one.
i too was thinking about enlightened tutor, maybe as a two of. fetches training grounds, vial, cb+top (if you wanted to go that route), anyt silver bullets.
grip is a HIGHLY played card.. aside from meddling mage, what else is your plan against grip?... just scoop?
why no pact of negation? when i played flash, i played 4 forces and 4 pacts.. because the turn you play your card, you're going to win.
also, i wouldn't shy away from playing brainfreeze in the maindeck. just look at solidarity lists for inspiration/years of testing... 1-2 maindecked with one more in the board, and 3 cunning wishes was the norm.
please refresh my memory... why the single reset?
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
I'm confused, why all the wish shenanigans when you can just run lightning bolt as the wincon? Sure its a little less effective but the card is great removal in the meantime and against aggro torching their 1 drop could buy you the time you need.
Yeah I've been playing with the wish board and I'm really liking it, makes the consistency that much better and usually nobody counters it
One problem is this deck is weak against enchantress hate since if they take out the training grounds you're screwed
Another problem I've had is actually finding the guildmages to finish the game.
I've also decided to add ray of revelation in the board to deal with enchantress and humility, now I'm running a Tropical Island and a single forest with a misty as a fifth fetch to allow me to run ancient grudge for artifact hate.
Does Pyro Ascension get counters when the spells are COPIED? I think it just says when it's cast.
Very cool deck concept.
idk if Words of War is worth it though. As it is right now, you literally need: Training Ground, Izzet Guildmage, Manamorphose to win. Words of War adds another piece of luggage that you'd need to resolve, protect from Krosan Grip, is dead in multiples, and can't be copied by a Guildmage.
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Legacy Currently playing:
Merfolk
EDH Currently playing:
:symb::symu::symw: Sharuum, the Hegemon
Hmm, playing around with the build, and I actually like Blue Red Green - one because it gives you access to Worldly Tutor, which fetches the Guildmage and his best friend - Vexing Shusher. Vexing doesn't make each instance of Manamorphose uncounterable, sadly, but he does provide uncounterable Tutor and Win Condition. I've combo'd out using him as backup to FoW's and everything else...
Here's my decklist, opinions and suggestions are welcome.
The deck is also on budget constraints, think to replace the Shocklands with actual Duals for a real deck. It works well enough, and the Dizzy Spell is a Transmute for Training Grounds without having to play Enlightened Tutor! Neato ^^
EDIT: MAN that took me a long time to make it work, was just hoping copying from MWS would be fine :L
Thanks! About cutting the Vials, and possibly replacing them with Scout's Warning- Everytime I think about it I decide against it. The Vials are very valuable, and allow for us to set up our combo while digging for the other parts of it and countering opposing threats. Vial allows us to circumnavigate almost all creature removal, and that is a huge plus. Simply wait til an opportune time & combo out at instant speed with FoW protection. The main downside with Scout's Warning is that it will require :symw::symu::symu: to put that Izzet Guildmage into play, rather than and then a tap with the Vial. That's a large drawback.
@Cunning Wish: Excellent suggestion.
Deck revision:
-1 Manamorphose
-1 Reset
-1 Stroke of Genius
+3 Cunning Wish
Sideboard:
-1 Banefire
-4 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Ghitu Fire
+1 Scout's Warning
+1 Orim's Chant
+1 Stifle
+1 Manamorphose
@the Azorius Guildmages: They are pretty dang helpful, and if you've a Training Grounds out, they are hardly mana-intensive. They can stall rather well for you to achieve your combo.
A sorcery-speed win condition is not worth it when we've access to an instant-speed win condition.
Shucks, thanks! I wasn't sure if anyone would recall much of my past involvement here in the Developing Competitive forum, I've been out of the loop for several months!
The fewer requirements for red mana the better (as we want to run predominantely blue mana sources), the more blue than non-blue cards the better (for Force of Will).
That being said, I am contemplating running a copy or few of Fire/Ice maindeck. Thoughts?
These additions are uncessary. The deck can win with the resources it has; it does not need to go infinite.
I agree with this change
Deck Revision:
-2 Serum Visions
+2 Impulse
While it is cute, I don't find it necessary. Sorceries are slower, too. Having the ability to consistently combo out at instant speed is a huge, huge plus.
An excellent suggestion.
Deck Revision:
-2 Ponder
+2 Muddle the Mixture
Again, unnecessary, not pitchable to FoW, and sorcery speed.
A fair point to make, but after the revisions we're looking pretty darn decent in this department. Impulse digs further and at instant speed, Muddle the Mixture can transmute into a variety of choices if needed, Cunning Wish gets us a combo piece or win condition. Keep in mind that the Vials aren't needed to combo out, but they are a huge help Also keep in mind that if you want you can land an early Izzet Guildmage and simply use him to help you dig further by copying Brainstorms, etc.
Agreed.
You can combo out at instant speed. You can wait until the prime moment. If your opponent is keeping a open, it would behoove you to wait until you have counter backup in the form of Daze or Force of Will. Also, the most obvious way to deal with it:
The updated decklist (edited into the OP as well):
4x Volcanic Island
4x Tundra
1x Steam Vents
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Island
1x Mountain
Creatures (6)
4x Izzet Guildmage
2x Azorius Guildmage
Other (36)
4x AEther Vial
4x Training Grounds
3x Manamorphose
1x Reset
2x Ponder
2x Impulse
2x Muddle the Mixture
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
1x Brain Freeze
3x Cunning Wish
1x Ghitu Fire
1x Scout's Warning
1x Orim's Chant
1x Manamorphose
1x Stifle
1x Stroke of Genius
1x Pact of Negation
2x Azorius Guildmage
4x Shattering Spree
2x Spell Pierce
Also people see training grounds and they don't care, they see the guildmage and don't care (even though copying force is awesome) then you win
Now, I'm not alone.
mystical tutor
Sensei's divining top
You could go off at sorcery speed with Heartstone instead of Training Day if you put some LED and Lotus Petal/Chrome Mox/SSG in the deck.
A definite change to make. I incorrectly thought Ghitu Fire was an instant, my mistake.
Deck Revision:
(Sideboard)
-1 Ghitu Fire
+1 Comet Storm
I agree with this change. It's a small difference, but it allows us to Wish an Oona's Grace if we're stalled out and use it on ourselves, and would still be able to use it on our opponent later in the game to force a win. Also, if they counter it when we attempt to resolve it for the win, we should be able to simply play it again. Not that I expect that scenario to happen very often, as typically if the opponent was holding onto a counterspell they'd use it prior when we attempt to go off in the first place.
Deck Revision:
(Sideboard)
-1 Stroke of Genius
+1 Oona's Grace
This seems like a no-brainer;
Deck Revision:
-1 Brain Freeze
+1 Cunning Wish
(Sideboard)
-1 Shattering Spree
+1 Brain Freeze
I'm not a fan of Mystical Tutor in here- it doesn't find Training Grounds nor the Guildmages. It can find Muddle the Mixture which can transmute into one, but that is quite a roundabout process.
I'm alright with adding more Ponders in lieu of the two Spell Pierces, but I would definitely prefer those or Impulse to SDT, simply because the guildmage can copy the instants/sorceries but not the SDT.
Deck Revision:
-2 Spell Pierce
+2 Ponder
The updated list:
4x Volcanic Island
4x Tundra
1x Steam Vents
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Island
1x Mountain
Creatures (6)
4x Izzet Guildmage
2x Azorius Guildmage
Other (36)
4x AEther Vial
4x Training Grounds
3x Manamorphose
1x Reset
4x Ponder
2x Impulse
4x Daze
2x Muddle the Mixture
4x Force of Will
4x Cunning Wish
1x Manamorphose
1x Brain Freeze
1x Oona's Grace
1x Pact of Negation
1x Comet Storm
1x Scout's Warning
1x Orim's Chant
4x Shattering Spree
2x Azorius Guildmage
2x Spell Pierce
I mentioned Fire // Ice
A lot of win cons were mentioned that are dead cards until they come online as the kill card. Fire // Ice is better because it kills and it can draw cards.
I've thought about it for hours and the more I think about this deck the more I feel it should have white for enlightened tutor.
Another problem I ran into was that (especially if we go three colors) that the deck is always super desperate for mana and fragile to boot.
Enlightened tutor is slow but if you plan on drawing it with brainstorm or the like afterward - that really does eat up a lot of mana.
With white I think meddling mage can earn a spot. Doesn't hurt w/ aether vial if that's still in the list. Protecting yourself from raping discard or other disruption is needed on top of the countersuite imo.
Training grounds seems like a sitting duck for krosan grip or the like. You can't go off in response to that one.
I'm sorry. A "Broadway Nails" commercial just came on. It killed every brain cell I've got.
Checking back later.
Thanks Darth Monkey
way to bring solidarity into the 21st century. but the reason that deck dropped off the radar, is becuase countertop kills it and other combo decks are just plain faster (ANT and belcher). doesn't this deck fall prey to the same weeknesses?
i too was thinking about enlightened tutor, maybe as a two of. fetches training grounds, vial, cb+top (if you wanted to go that route), anyt silver bullets.
grip is a HIGHLY played card.. aside from meddling mage, what else is your plan against grip?... just scoop?
why no pact of negation? when i played flash, i played 4 forces and 4 pacts.. because the turn you play your card, you're going to win.
also, i wouldn't shy away from playing brainfreeze in the maindeck. just look at solidarity lists for inspiration/years of testing... 1-2 maindecked with one more in the board, and 3 cunning wishes was the norm.
please refresh my memory... why the single reset?
Good thing I only copied dazes
Yeah I've been playing with the wish board and I'm really liking it, makes the consistency that much better and usually nobody counters it
One problem is this deck is weak against enchantress hate since if they take out the training grounds you're screwed
Another problem I've had is actually finding the guildmages to finish the game.
I've also decided to add ray of revelation in the board to deal with enchantress and humility, now I'm running a Tropical Island and a single forest with a misty as a fifth fetch to allow me to run ancient grudge for artifact hate.
Now, I'm not alone.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
I Believe sir, you have just broken words of war.
Does Pyro Ascension get counters when the spells are COPIED? I think it just says when it's cast.
Very cool deck concept.
idk if Words of War is worth it though. As it is right now, you literally need: Training Ground, Izzet Guildmage, Manamorphose to win. Words of War adds another piece of luggage that you'd need to resolve, protect from Krosan Grip, is dead in multiples, and can't be copied by a Guildmage.
Currently playing:
Merfolk
EDH
Currently playing:
:symb::symu::symw: Sharuum, the Hegemon
MY SALES THREAD!
Here's my decklist, opinions and suggestions are welcome.
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
4 Steam Vents
4 Island
2 Vexing Shusher
4 Izzet Guildmage
3 AEther Vial
2 Worldly Tutor
2 Muddle the Mixture
2 Dizzy Spell
4 Ponder
4 Training Grounds
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Cunning Wish
3 Manamorphose
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Dizzy Spell
4 Shattering Spree
1 Wipe Away
1 Pact of Negation
1 Rebuild
2 Spell Peirce
1 Manamorphose
1 Volcanic Geyeser
The deck is also on budget constraints, think to replace the Shocklands with actual Duals for a real deck. It works well enough, and the Dizzy Spell is a Transmute for Training Grounds without having to play Enlightened Tutor! Neato ^^
EDIT: MAN that took me a long time to make it work, was just hoping copying from MWS would be fine :L
Heroes of the Plane
The Price of Legacy
The Price of Legacy 2.0!
Decks:
EDH
Malestrom Wanderer Group Chaotic Hugs
Tasigur, The Golden Fang Valu-Town
Modern
Too many to List...
Legacy
GWBNic-Fit PodGWB
G12-Post (Building)G