I agree now that I have tested it and JTMS seems to not be that good due to the four mana cost. I am currently running Qasali Pridemage in its place but that also seems bad because it weakens the effect of EE. I havn't played it to much so I am going to see how it plays out at the next legacy tournament. After that I may get back to 8 cantrips but that just seems weak. How is your list working out?
I am back to playing 4 Ponder. Seems to be the best. Now my only difference is that I am running 1 less fetch and in its place 1 Maze of Ith. Seems to work really well. This deck only needs to hit 3 mana so the Maze doesn't screw with it to bad although when it is bad... It is REALLY bad. Plenty of hands where I wished it was a fetch so I wouldn't have to mulligan to 6. I think I will keep it though.
Merfolk is the best deck in legacy right now IMHO. Our MU against it isn't great because of the islands. The good news is that our creatures are bigger. If we can keep Lord of Atlantis off of the table then we have a solid chance to race. Standstill isn't that great against us after turn two because we can then just keep pumping our creatures by playing fetch lands or Horizon Canopy. Overall I would guess about 50/50 if you are both good pilots.
Burn isn't bad as you can usually race and they will have to waste multiple spells on your creatures to kill them. Price of Progress is not that great against us because we are usually sitting on 3-4 lands. They are faster, however, and you do not play nearly enough hate to win this consistently game one. I have only played against it two or three times when I first started playing the deck so I would guess about 60/40 in there favor. Now that I'm a better pilot, my MU may improve but I will have to wait and see.
Zoo is good if not great for us. We play a solid amount of removal and counters and Engineered Explosives can handle multiple threats so the MU only gets better after board. They also play so many fetches and non basics that it is hard to lose this one. 75/25 our favor and I think that is being generous.
Our MU against combo is ridiculously good. We can stifle storm and we play the usual 4 Daze and 4 Force of Will.
Noremac; Do you test on MWS? I imagine Zoo would have a great match here, although my list is a little different that what's normally proposed. Would you like to test a few matches?
Has this deck been topping tournaments at all lately? My friend and I are thinking of throwing it together for a GP since we have most all the deck from BANT.
Joshua D: I actually do not play online. We have a fairly large legacy community around my area and that is how I manage to play test against just about everything.
bradstone: As to my knowledge this deck has been out of the main scene for a while. I started to play it after Thresh got pretty bad in my meta and I believe New Horizons to be a lot better. Dark Horizons was really big during the age of Survival Vine but hasn't seen much play since then. If you have a well developed meta, this deck is solid but if you have a lot of rouge decks then I would avoid it. Europe plays a lot of combo so I went to Thresh and then this to combat it (I know Counter top is better but it isn't fun for me)... Short answer, no
Even the deck's creator doesn't play it anymore, by my understanding.
When this deck hit the scene, the decks to beat where the Mystical Tutor combo decks and Zoo. Zoo had enough penetration in the metagame to keep down the Merfolk and Goblins builds from then to pretty reasonable levels. Your matchups overall against the field were mostly decent.
Things were pretty good!
Soon thereafter, Legacy went on a five month bender where we just threw as many Vengevines into the graveyard as possible.
After the DCI put an end to that, things had changed a lot when everyone started looking at other decks again, and that's been the downfall of this deck. Just to list things out.
A) Junk is now a deck ,and NH, like other threshold-shell decks, has a pretty bad matchup. They just have too many things that blow your dudes up and getting your threats Hymn'd/Seized sucks when you run so few.
B) Merfolk now has Coralhelm Commander , started running Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, and a sharply optimized build. You get overrun.
C) Zoo has diminished in the metagame. There are more Goblins, and the MU is very bad for you.
Without a good game plan or a good way to approach tribal, things get rough. I still think there's room for a Bant stifle/wasteland deck (and have run one in a local tournament or two with some good results), but I think you have to look either at Mystics/equipment and a different creature/disruption set. In this metagame having something swinging with a Jitte or a Sword of Fire and Ice has a lot more value than beating down with one huge fatty or wastelanding them out with Knight.
One good thing to take out of this deck though is the mana base. IMO all decks running G/W should see how NH played a very healthy number of lands and self-regulated its draws (and pumped Knight at the same time) through Horizon Canopy. Easily my favorite part about the deck.
Hey I am preparing for a tournament at the end of this month and I would like your advice on Mental Misstep.
This card seems very good for this deck but what would we remove for it?
My Current build runs only 8 creatures so I run mental misstep in those extra slots and have removed 1 daze for it to fit.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Should have draw a card on it, still only playable in casual or limited. I mean it loses to liquify"
Said about Yawgmoth’s Will
I would like to get rid of the spell pierce because we already have a really good game one against combo but I am not sure for what. One of my friends plays dredge so I have been playtesting that a lot and that MU doesn't seem to bad but tbh he is a fairly new pilot and he makes a lot of mistakes. Next Saturday I hope to have it ready for tournament play so I could use help from everyone.
So I played it at GP Prauge and got really bad MUs.
Match 1:
Merfolk: Was against a Level 6 Pro but even without it he had a huge advantage. Countered any real spells and I just lost to lords both games.
Match 2:
Elves: Not a very good player but game one he just kept playing relevant spells and couldn't counter all of them. Game 2 he K-Grips 2 EE back to back turns and then overran me.
Match 3:
Mirror: He played an odd build that was more aggro oriented and no Stifle. Either one of us could have won the match but it ended in his favor game 3.
Match 4:
Charbelcher: Really odd build and couldn't put him on Charbelcher until turn 3 and then made a huge play error and lost game 1. Game 2 I won easy with a well timed FoW. Game 3 he had a nutty hand and I had no force. On the play I would have had a chance but I was on the play and he won that turn.
All in all it wasn't a good meta for it or at least I didn't have good match ups. I still like the deck and will try it for a while.
I have had similar problems with the deck, however I have added red to fit firespout in the side. This improved both my elves and merfolk match-up a lot.
And well sometimes you just loose to belcher.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Should have draw a card on it, still only playable in casual or limited. I mean it loses to liquify"
Said about Yawgmoth’s Will
Well i think the thing is that New Horizons preys on multi-colored decks with fragile manabases while having one itself. It uses its stifles and wastelands to get tempo, but versus a deck like Pox (mono-colored and running few nonbasics/fetches) the tempo package just doesn't do very much. On top of that, the Pox player can simply recur lands as well so the NH player simply doesn't gain an advantage with his distruption package. If you want NH to beat Pox, you could try more removal like PtE to simply remove their threats when they do resolve and increase the number of creatures by a bit. But then that'd be going more towards a Bant build.
So with misstep being banned I thought that this deck was supposed to make a comeback is that not the case because it seems like noone is talking about it at all.
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Big Thanks to DNC and all the guys at Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig and avvie.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=298966
On Thunderous Wrath
Keon on MODO
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=298966
On Thunderous Wrath
Keon on MODO
I especially since I run more lands than usual.
Said about Yawgmoth’s Will
Credits to Miraculous Recovery Signatures for the truly miraculous sig.
GURRUG Delver
RGoblins
RUGPunishing Balance
Modern:
UR Izzet Tron
Burn isn't bad as you can usually race and they will have to waste multiple spells on your creatures to kill them. Price of Progress is not that great against us because we are usually sitting on 3-4 lands. They are faster, however, and you do not play nearly enough hate to win this consistently game one. I have only played against it two or three times when I first started playing the deck so I would guess about 60/40 in there favor. Now that I'm a better pilot, my MU may improve but I will have to wait and see.
Zoo is good if not great for us. We play a solid amount of removal and counters and Engineered Explosives can handle multiple threats so the MU only gets better after board. They also play so many fetches and non basics that it is hard to lose this one. 75/25 our favor and I think that is being generous.
Our MU against combo is ridiculously good. We can stifle storm and we play the usual 4 Daze and 4 Force of Will.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=298966
On Thunderous Wrath
Keon on MODO
I fared quite well against those pesky blue men and believe that I will run red again next time around.
Said about Yawgmoth’s Will
Credits to Miraculous Recovery Signatures for the truly miraculous sig.
GURRUG Delver
RGoblins
RUGPunishing Balance
Modern:
UR Izzet Tron
Retired
Legacy:
GRUB Lands
Modern:
U Tron
RG Tron
RG Ponza
bradstone: As to my knowledge this deck has been out of the main scene for a while. I started to play it after Thresh got pretty bad in my meta and I believe New Horizons to be a lot better. Dark Horizons was really big during the age of Survival Vine but hasn't seen much play since then. If you have a well developed meta, this deck is solid but if you have a lot of rouge decks then I would avoid it. Europe plays a lot of combo so I went to Thresh and then this to combat it (I know Counter top is better but it isn't fun for me)... Short answer, no
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=298966
On Thunderous Wrath
Keon on MODO
When this deck hit the scene, the decks to beat where the Mystical Tutor combo decks and Zoo. Zoo had enough penetration in the metagame to keep down the Merfolk and Goblins builds from then to pretty reasonable levels. Your matchups overall against the field were mostly decent.
Things were pretty good!
Soon thereafter, Legacy went on a five month bender where we just threw as many Vengevines into the graveyard as possible.
After the DCI put an end to that, things had changed a lot when everyone started looking at other decks again, and that's been the downfall of this deck. Just to list things out.
A) Junk is now a deck ,and NH, like other threshold-shell decks, has a pretty bad matchup. They just have too many things that blow your dudes up and getting your threats Hymn'd/Seized sucks when you run so few.
B) Merfolk now has Coralhelm Commander , started running Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, and a sharply optimized build. You get overrun.
C) Zoo has diminished in the metagame. There are more Goblins, and the MU is very bad for you.
Without a good game plan or a good way to approach tribal, things get rough. I still think there's room for a Bant stifle/wasteland deck (and have run one in a local tournament or two with some good results), but I think you have to look either at Mystics/equipment and a different creature/disruption set. In this metagame having something swinging with a Jitte or a Sword of Fire and Ice has a lot more value than beating down with one huge fatty or wastelanding them out with Knight.
One good thing to take out of this deck though is the mana base. IMO all decks running G/W should see how NH played a very healthy number of lands and self-regulated its draws (and pumped Knight at the same time) through Horizon Canopy. Easily my favorite part about the deck.
This card seems very good for this deck but what would we remove for it?
My Current build runs only 8 creatures so I run mental misstep in those extra slots and have removed 1 daze for it to fit.
Said about Yawgmoth’s Will
Credits to Miraculous Recovery Signatures for the truly miraculous sig.
GURRUG Delver
RGoblins
RUGPunishing Balance
Modern:
UR Izzet Tron
2 Rhox War Monk
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Spell Pierce
I would like to get rid of the spell pierce because we already have a really good game one against combo but I am not sure for what. One of my friends plays dredge so I have been playtesting that a lot and that MU doesn't seem to bad but tbh he is a fairly new pilot and he makes a lot of mistakes. Next Saturday I hope to have it ready for tournament play so I could use help from everyone.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=298966
On Thunderous Wrath
Keon on MODO
Match 1:
Merfolk: Was against a Level 6 Pro but even without it he had a huge advantage. Countered any real spells and I just lost to lords both games.
Match 2:
Elves: Not a very good player but game one he just kept playing relevant spells and couldn't counter all of them. Game 2 he K-Grips 2 EE back to back turns and then overran me.
Match 3:
Mirror: He played an odd build that was more aggro oriented and no Stifle. Either one of us could have won the match but it ended in his favor game 3.
Match 4:
Charbelcher: Really odd build and couldn't put him on Charbelcher until turn 3 and then made a huge play error and lost game 1. Game 2 I won easy with a well timed FoW. Game 3 he had a nutty hand and I had no force. On the play I would have had a chance but I was on the play and he won that turn.
All in all it wasn't a good meta for it or at least I didn't have good match ups. I still like the deck and will try it for a while.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=298966
On Thunderous Wrath
Keon on MODO
I have had similar problems with the deck, however I have added red to fit firespout in the side. This improved both my elves and merfolk match-up a lot.
And well sometimes you just loose to belcher.
Said about Yawgmoth’s Will
Credits to Miraculous Recovery Signatures for the truly miraculous sig.
GURRUG Delver
RGoblins
RUGPunishing Balance
Modern:
UR Izzet Tron
Big Thanks to DNC and all the guys at Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig and avvie.
Currently Playing:
Legacy:
BUGBUG DelverGUB
UWRUWR MiraclesRWU
RUGRUG DelverGUR
UUHigh TideUU
Modern:
UWRUWR ControlRWU
UBUB FaeriesBU
BGRJundRGB
URUR StormRU
Standard:
UWUW ControlWU