Since you are splashing for G now, have you considered Qasali Pridemage? You need to sac him to remove artifacts/enchants, but you can use it after he comes into play. He also has Exalted, which helps your little dudes out.
I've setup a number of BWG aggro decks kind of like this. Might try your version out since I have pretty much all the cards already.
Edit: Oh wait, you mentioned him. Never mind! I just like the Pridemage a lot more than Relic-Warder and was wondering why he is not on the list.
Since you are splashing for G now, have you considered Qasali Pridemage? You need to sac him to remove artifacts/enchants, but you can use it after he comes into play. He also has Exalted, which helps your little dudes out.
I've setup a number of BWG aggro decks kind of like this. Might try your version out since I have pretty much all the cards already.
Edit: Oh wait, you mentioned him. Never mind! I just like the Pridemage a lot more than Relic-Warder and was wondering why he is not on the list.
Hooah and I keep going back and forth about the two of them. The problem with Pridemage is that we have to get rid of him in order to use him. Yes Exalted is good, but the increased green density just isn't worth it IMHO. I think that Relic-Warder is the better choice here, but I may be wrong.
That's the thing. We've done some testing, and a whole lot of theorycrafting, but we can't do it all by ourselves. We posted the deck here to spark some interest in others in an attempt to get some testing results from others. We're open to any and all opinions/results at this point.
We have to completely rely on our opponents to fill their yard and grow Goyf and he's just a straight beater. Like I said in an earlier post, atm, I like Serra Avenger better because it has evasion and vigilance.
Knight of the Reliquary has been discussed. It's off curve and doesn't get especially big while swinging. At this point the only land that she's gonna fetch are Wastelands. I do love the Knight though. I think she may be a one of to tutor for and throw in a Karakas. Having access to Maze of Ith would be nice but I really don't know what to cut.
The manabase is gonna need some testing with the new green especially if we want to throw in a Knight. I think adding Pridemages might strain the mana base, which I think is already gonna be kinda greedy. The thing that I really like about the Relic Warders is that they can't try to trick you into using them. Plus you can actually get rid of aWurmcoil Engine instead of just making smaller ones.
Would you mind posting the list you used so I can see what you took out for Goyf and your mana base?
How was Goyf? How did the mana base work for you? I expected Zoo to be a bad match, but how bad was it?
At first I thought this would be a pretty straight forward deck, but the more I play it the more I realize that there really are a lot of complex decisions to be made. I expect even more so once I start running Fauna Shaman.
I've been arguing with dorpkickdude over whether we should be running Vindicate or Oblivion Ring and now with green I'm leaning more towards O Ring due to the color requirements. Testing is still required but I like that it's an out to Emrakul as well.
The Zoo matchup was hard due to the efficiency of their burns, almost every creature this deck plays has toughness of 3 or less so it limits you:
- Tidehollow Sculler MUST grab the burn or will take it EOT. (unless there is something lot more relevant on his hand which we'll be in problem if he casts, in that case we gain some tempo with them burning our sculler)
- Mother of Runes isn't enough to protect your creatures
- Phyrexian Revoker has no target on this matchup
- Stoneforge package doesn't help us too much
- Their creatures are faster than we can remove them.
I've had no decent SB choice for this matchup, the match i've won was thanks for mana vial followed by 3 wastelands.
The Zoo matchup was hard due to the efficiency of their burns, almost every creature this deck plays has toughness of 3 or less so it limits you:
- Tidehollow Sculler MUST grab the burn or will take it EOT. (unless there is something lot more relevant on his hand which we'll be in problem if he casts, in that case we gain some tempo with them burning our sculler)
- Mother of Runes isn't enough to protect your creatures
- Phyrexian Revoker has no target on this matchup
- Stoneforge package doesn't help us too much
- Their creatures are faster than we can remove them.
I've had no decent SB choice for this matchup, the match i've won was thanks for mana vial followed by 3 wastelands.
Thank you for this. It is exactly what we needed. I'm still firmly against Goyf in this deck. He offers no disruption. It looks like you put him in for Serra Avenger. At any point in your testing (particularly the matches you lost) would an evasive, vigilant angel been better than a big meat shield on the ground? How well were you able to pump Goyf by yourself?
@Hooah: I agree, now that we're going 3 color we should be running O-Ring.
So what can we do to sure up the Zoo matchup? I like SoBaM in the side. Did you side that in grixis? If so, did you ever see it? What do you guys think about Burrenton Forge-Tender in the side? Maybe side them in for Revokers if they are playing burn spells over Grim Lavamancer. Is it too narrow of usage? Is our matchup so bad that it warrants it? I think it may be too narrow myself, but I know some decks/people that like it.
I think we should either find a way to run 3 Mystics main, or run the third in the board. That may be better against Zoo. Finding SoBaM against them is practically game. I think in order to beat Zoo we have to turn up our clock a bit, and I think she's the way to do it.
SoBaM is not game against Zoo because they burn every creature you have so it never connects. Dueling Grounds Might be worth looking into over E Plague.
Dueling Grounds is helpful when you have fewer, bigger creatures like Tarmogoyf or Knight of the Reliquary. Your small dudes, aside from the Avenger, cannot stand up to Zoo's creatures generally and you will often win the game by massing a horde of little guys on the field and pinging the opponent to death. Dueling Grounds contradicts that, and would also be a terrible miscalculation against Zoo, which will then burn your face until you run out of Burrenton Forge-Tenders and make Tarmo bigger, and is especially bad versus Big Zoo, which will proceed to wreck you by flying over Knights and Tarmos with Elspeth, Knight-Errant, which the creatures here simply have no chance against outside of having a Sword of Body and Mind orSword of Feast and Famine equipped to Serra Avenger.
Additionally, you cannot rely on equipment too much to take advantage of Dueling Grounds because Qasali Pridemage is a staple of Zoo and has LOTS of great targets, including Dueling Grounds itself. Phyrexian Revoker stops the Pridemage, which is great, and versus big zoo you have Noble Hierarch, Elspeth and Knight of the Reliquary as targets, but this is admittedly a matchup where he is only delaying the inevitable. At least he serves as a wonderful lightning rod.
Some options I can think of:
Kor Firewalker: Matches the 2cc focus of the deck and greatly slows down the burn strategy. Can only be removed by Swords to Plowshares. Beats for 2 and is a more reliable equipment holder than most versus Zoo. Has the benefit of hosing straight burn like no tomorrow, which this deck will also have some trouble against.
Burrenton Forge-Tender: This card is very useful despite my criticizing it above, but it needs to be in combination with a good 'out' to really help you win. My problem with it is it doesn't really contribute to the fight at all unless she is equipped. Additionally, good Zoo players will try to trick you into sacrificing her before moving in for the kill.
Jotun Grunt: I am aware you removed him for more techy cards, but this guy is one of your best bets versus Zoo. He can't be outright killed by any one of their removal spells save Plowshares or Fireblast (which they won't waste on him unless you are definitely going to win) and he is dedicated graveyard hate, getting rid of Lavamancer fuel and shrinking their biggest creatures. Additionally, he is a 4/4 for 2cc who can kill any of Zoo's obnoxiously strong 1-drops. If you're expecting Zoo, you really need to run this guy, at least in the SB. He will really, really help this matchup.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant: She gives your guys +3/+3 and makes them fly. Zoo has no inherent flyers. Good? Yes. I see it on SBs already but you might consider it MB if you expect a lot of Zoo.
Pernicious Deed: Set to 1cc, it kills your Aether Vials, but this can be a complete Zoo board wipe occasionally. Not a bad choice if Zoo's board position looks better than yours, too (this will be very often).
Maze of Ith: If you're set on running Dueling Grounds, run this too to take full advantage of it. That said, it's starting to change the focus of the deck, but I figured I'd mention it anyway!
I don't think Zoo will ever be a wonderful matchup for this deck - their creatures are just so efficient and fast, and their removal wipes pretty much all of the creatures in Hate Crimes. Additionally, this deck likes its artifact creatures, which the Pridemage can easily kill if necessary. But you might be able to make it 50/50 with enough stuff.
Maindeck changes were minimal. We decided on a 4:1 split of Phyrexian Revoker and Leonin Relic-Warder because Revoker is better almost all the time. The two Warders in the board come in against the matchups where he truly shines (CounterTop, Enchantress, and decks with Vial).
3 Fauna Shamans allow us to run the full set of Serra Avengers, which we really want. I cannot stress enough how good she is. She is a 4-of no matter what else you want to play.
Chalice of the Void is something we're really happy with in the board. It replaces StP against any Storm Combo or Belcher, and is deceptively good against Team America (shutting off their draw) and Zoo (blanking their burn, and not letting them play their annoying 1-drops), where we drop Teeg, Warder, and likely 2 Revokers. Team America and Zoo were the two decks we were most concerned with making sure we have stuff in the board to help us out against, as we see them as our worst matchups.
Perish also helps against those decks, and any others running Goyf as well. That is why we have 3 in the board, to replace O-Ring in such matchups. It also comes in the same against Elves.
Dueling Grounds is really helpful against tribal based aggro. It comes in against Goblins and Merfolk alongside the 2 extra Warders replacing SoBaM, 3 Revokers, and Teeg.
Gaddock Teeg is in the main as a tutor target against any deck where the primary method of victory is a high-cmc card, such as Tendrils of Agony, Natural Order, Progenitus, or Emrakul. He also warrants an extra slot in the board against those same decks.
Ethersworn Canonist is another Storm hate card that comes in alongside the extra Teeg replacing our O-Rings. She really shines there.
We figure we have such a bad matchup against Lands anyways, that we're just going to punt it. If your meta has Lands in it, perhaps you should consider Jotun Grunts. We figure it's not prevalent enough to worry about.
I really like Chalice of the Void here. Perish seems alright. Not a huge fan of the Dueling Grounds in this deck personally, but I also haven't tested it or anything so what do I know.
Kind of questioning SoBaM actually. The green protection is alright, and getting a dumb blocker is okay, but is milling ten cards really a good idea with all of the gy-based decks around? Creatures that would be this deck's bane, like Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary, could actually really benefit from the mill. I would probably take Feast and Famine over Body and Mind if you really want pro: green.
Also, is there any reason you have no grave hate at all?
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I go by the name Elesti on MTGO. I mostly play EDH nowadays. Feel free to hit me up for a game sometime.
I really like Chalice of the Void here. Perish seems alright. Not a huge fan of the Dueling Grounds in this deck personally, but I also haven't tested it or anything so what do I know.
Kind of questioning SoBaM actually. The green protection is alright, and getting a dumb blocker is okay, but is milling ten cards really a good idea with all of the gy-based decks around? Creatures that would be this deck's bane, like Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary, could actually really benefit from the mill. I would probably take Feast and Famine over Body and Mind if you really want pro: green.
Also, is there any reason you have no grave hate at all?
No yard hate because Reanimator and Survival are dead and no one can afford to play Lands (and also because we're semi-retarded). We spent a lot of time discussing SB options and what we would put it/take out for certain matches. Of course we didn't talk about any of the yard based strategies because I've only played Lands, long enough to know that it wrecks us every time, and am more inclined to play Rock/Bant strategies so I always forget about the rest since Reanimator and Survival aren't around.
Dueling Grounds is for Tribal MUs and I can see it working really well. We did side it in, along with Canonist, against Thresh Vine today and it worked really well. Believe it or not we actually searched for and used SoBaM, attached to a Canonist, to win one game!
You're right that SoBaM grows creatures that are already a problem for us but the dumb blocker will step in front of them for and we might be able to pull out the win with the mill. Not ideal but it seems to be better than the others. Feast and Famine wouldn't be bad if we could consistently capitalize on the untap ability, but since we cant the blocker seems better imho.
I like Jotun Grunt, but I'm not real sure what I would cut from the board for him.
The SB is geared toward a local meta which I expect to be full of Combo and Tribal decks. I don't really expect to see much Zoo. Of course SB cards are always going to be meta dependent and I'm eager to hear people's opinions and testing with different cards in different MUs.
I really like Chalice of the Void here. Perish seems alright. Not a huge fan of the Dueling Grounds in this deck personally, but I also haven't tested it or anything so what do I know.
Kind of questioning SoBaM actually. The green protection is alright, and getting a dumb blocker is okay, but is milling ten cards really a good idea with all of the gy-based decks around? Creatures that would be this deck's bane, like Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary, could actually really benefit from the mill. I would probably take Feast and Famine over Body and Mind if you really want pro: green.
Also, is there any reason you have no grave hate at all?
The more I think abut it, I think we're fine against gy decks. Teeg shuts off Dread Return, Dueling Grounds makes Zombie tokens useless, and StP makes Ichorid or Bloodghast a non issue. CotV at 1 hoses Reanimator pretty well if I'm not mistaken as well. Our only issue then is Loam, and you can't fix everything.
Hey, reading over this deck. Think I'll give it a spin online tonight. These are just my thoughts while reading things over. No criticisms, just thoughts, ideas, etc.
Teeg: I like teeg against these 12-post decks that are all over MWS. they stop repeal, all is dust, and that force of will they are somehow able to cram in, so he can protect your equipment, vials, etc.
Mom, Revoker: Check
SoB&M: Like others I'm not sold on soB&M. I like having access to protection from more than 3 colors. In theory it would be great to have access to all 5, but if you can only have 2 swords, then I would think 4 colors would be the best route. So which do you choose?
SoL&S: Pro-removal is nice. Pro-Kotr/Pridemage is nice. Lifegain is nice (though jitte can do this), but its weakness (was) a not-so-relevant ability since your other creatures weren't in the graveyard. They were exiled or grunted to the bottom of your library. With Fauna shaman you _will_ have creatures to return.
SoF&F: Pro-goyf, pro-elves, and pro-go for the throat is nice. Discard is nice but it's argued that it's not as relevant that late in the game? Maybe, but O-ring, attack, discard, untap, play untapped blocker (think sculler!) seems better than mill + token.
I worry about the amount of 2cc in the deck. Very little in the deck can be pierced but much can be snared. Deed on 2 sucks (not that it's much better on 3, but at least you should get a turn to try and deal), but I guess teeg can at least help against EE. Correct me if I'm wrong, but teeg needs to be in play when a spell is cast to stop it, and cannot be vialed in in-response correct?
Deuling Grounds: I like this because casually I love playing Silent Arbiter. I just wish it could be protected against grip or zealot. revoker can stop pridemage from taking it, though.
Really want an extirpate in the sb for well, just cause.
Thoughts about weathered wayfarer as a 1-of somewhere? Enables you to run the singleton karakas which can pseudo-protect your teeg, bounce iona (which then turns your only removal back on), recover from land destruction/give card advantage, and how cool is tutoring for a tutor for a land?
I am trying to make the Mom/Equipment/Vial route work for me in some form, d&T, uw tempo, deadguy ale... Just looking for the right combination to stick. I fear that this type of deck, whether aggro, control, taxing, whatever plays too fair to compete. I hope not!
I'll try it out tonight against the 12-post, affinity, and stax that seem to dominate mws and post my results.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but teeg needs to be in play when a spell is cast to stop it, and cannot be vialed in in-response correct?
This is correct. Just like Silence it won't uncast a spell that's been cast if you do it in response... You don't gain priority to respond until the spell is on the stack.
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I really like Weathered Wayfarer in the Mom slot. She hasn't really performed as well I would like and with only running 20 lands and now being tri-colored Wayfarer could be really good. Getting above 3 land can be difficult, and while winning with a one land hand happens fairly often, if you don't have Vial or they answer it you want that land.
Tendrils: won 2:1
MUD: Got smashed 0:2 but he drew the nuts both times.
UGB Control: lost 1:2 but it was close
Tendrils:
G1 I was on the play and T2 took an LED with Sculler seeing Thoughtseize, 2 Lotus Petal, Infernal Tutor and land. he Seizes my Revoker and I play Stoneforge for SoBaM equip it to Sculler and swing in hitting Tendrils, LED and some other stuff. He's at 10 and plays Cabal Ritual for AN taking him down to 5 and giving him Ill Gotten Gains LED and Infernal Tutor. He barely goes off.
G2 I side in 2 Canonist 1 Teeg and 4 Chalice. I mulligan and keep Chalice and Canonist. I ☺☺☺☺ up and don't play Chalice at 0 on my first turn! T2 I draw another Chalice, play one at 0 and play Canonist. He concedes
G3 I play Vial. T2 Sculler takes I Tutor. T3 I play Shaman. T4 I Shaman for Canonist and Vial it in. T5 I Shaman for Teeg and he concedes.
MUD:
G1: He plays T1 Ancient Tomb for Lightning Greaves which I take with Relic Warder. T3 he play Metalworker. I He makes 8 mana with it and plays Lodestone Golem and Crucible and goes to town on my manabase. I play revoker on Metalworker but it's a turn too late.
G2 He plays Ancient Tomb into Grim Monolith for Trinisphere. I had a good hand with Teeg and 2 Relic Warders but costing 3 keeps me off them since he plays Metalworker then Sundering Titan to destroy all my lands. I don't think it's unwinnable but without a Vial and him with a Metalworker life is difficult.
UGB Control:
G1: Nothing special. I Swords a Goyf and get in there with an Avenger with a Jitte thanks to Stoneforge. Side in 1 Teeg for the lone Relic Warder.
G2: This an epic battle that lasts forever. I survive 2 Pernicious Deed and play a Revoker naming Deed just in case. A couple turns later he K Grips my Revoker, which means no Mom protection, and deeds the rest of the board which was a Mom Bob and SobaM on Bob. A while later he EEs for 2 :(. Ultimately my Bob and his Goyf are trading punches and we both end up at 2 on my turn with no blockers on his side. I flip Serra Avenger to Bob... double
G3 I keep Plains, Vial, Mom, 2 Avenger, Sculler and a Relic Warder. I play Vial he Thoughtseizes Mom. Vial gets to 2 and he K Grips it on his turn. I draw 2 Wasteland and get my face beat by 2 Bobs with a Top out.
OP Updated to show current list as well as general SB strategies
Played the "stock" list last night, just with feast/famine in the body/mind slot.
Thoughts:
Deed=sigh
A revoker set on deed doesn't stop it if they swords the revoker. Against any deck with white I would much rather have had a needle in there, which leads me to believe we want light/shadow instead of the other swords, if nothing more than to protect the revoker. 3 moms isn't consistent enough to protect our hate bears, even with the shaman because then it takes 3 full turns to get mom going (pun intended)
mom: I so want her to work but as a 3-of you can't get her out quick enough, which in a perfect world would be end of turn two off vial after opponent has played a two drop and is tapped out.
Teeg: win. Took out aluren before I even knew what he was playing.
Two people quit on me calling me a noob because of the main deck revokers and o-rings. One of those being forgemaster which had its welder revoked and then forgemaster o-ringed after he was bragging about winning.
bob: yup
relic-warder: boo! most times I would have rathered a vindicate or even an o-ring. At least with sculler you get to see their hand and get to pick a spell. If they get it back at least you know what they have AND they still have to cast the removed spell if they get it back. Also, With warder you have to wait for a target or it's just a bear.
Vial: yes, please. having 2 out isn't that bad. Might want to drop to 3 if you add wayfarer?
sword of feast & famine: I'm so used to playing spells after attack that I messed this up twice. Against non blue decks this is really good. Cast bob, attack, untap, cast something else. The curve is so low that we can really speed up tempo if this connects.
stp: is it wrong that I wished this was pte or go for the throat? Whittle away the opponent's life to 10 and then they drop 2 6/7 goyfs or a 7/7 kotr that you have to stp. Now they are back up to 23!
I'm going to try soL&S tonight and also try a B/W only version. The teeg really helps the combo matchup, but what else would you tutor for with shaman? In short, what is green bringing that makes it better than being able to run vindicate? With so many vials you could probably run a single savannah and sb 3 teegs
Played the "stock" list last night, just with feast/famine in the body/mind slot.
Thoughts:
Deed=sigh
A revoker set on deed doesn't stop it if they swords the revoker. Against any deck with white I would much rather have had a needle in there, which leads me to believe we want light/shadow instead of the other swords, if nothing more than to protect the revoker. 3 moms isn't consistent enough to protect our hate bears, even with the shaman because then it takes 3 full turns to get mom going (pun intended)
mom: I so want her to work but as a 3-of you can't get her out quick enough, which in a perfect world would be end of turn two off vial after opponent has played a two drop and is tapped out.
Teeg: win. Took out aluren before I even knew what he was playing.
Two people quit on me calling me a noob because of the main deck revokers and o-rings. One of those being forgemaster which had its welder revoked and then forgemaster o-ringed after he was bragging about winning.
bob: yup
relic-warder: boo! most times I would have rathered a vindicate or even an o-ring. At least with sculler you get to see their hand and get to pick a spell. If they get it back at least you know what they have AND they still have to cast the removed spell if they get it back. Also, With warder you have to wait for a target or it's just a bear.
Vial: yes, please. having 2 out isn't that bad. Might want to drop to 3 if you add wayfarer?
sword of feast & famine: I'm so used to playing spells after attack that I messed this up twice. Against non blue decks this is really good. Cast bob, attack, untap, cast something else. The curve is so low that we can really speed up tempo if this connects.
stp: is it wrong that I wished this was pte or go for the throat? Whittle away the opponent's life to 10 and then they drop 2 6/7 goyfs or a 7/7 kotr that you have to stp. Now they are back up to 23!
I'm going to try soL&S tonight and also try a B/W only version. The teeg really helps the combo matchup, but what else would you tutor for with shaman? In short, what is green bringing that makes it better than being able to run vindicate? With so many vials you could probably run a single savannah and sb 3 teegs
After some talking today, Hooah and I have decided that Weathered Wayfarer should replace Mother of Runes. At merely a surface level he gets us more land, which is good because we only run 20. WW also allows us to tutor for Wastelands, which is just so good for us. Because we need so few land to operate, we can dedicate the resources we don't need in order to disrupt our opponent further. An extension of this strategy is to replace 1 Wasteland with a Rishadan Port, now that we have a tutor for it. Port allows us to shut off even Basic Land, and unlike Wasteland, allows us to both disrupt and use it for mana.
Sword of Feast and Famine should replace Sword of Body and Mind now that Wayfarer and Port have entered. We really liked BaM because of how well it played out against Goyf. Allowing us to swing through him and leaving a chump blocker behind at the cost of 0 cards is just so good. I was thinking today however, that FaF can do the same thing. With just one other creature on the board it acts similarly, because the untapping allows us to equip the sword to a now Goyf-proof creature and nets a card due to the discard effect as well. Alternatively, we can also use the mana to play a creature from our hand, which gives us a chump blocker that also likely has some disruptive effective as well. Thirdly it opens up a whole new world of disruption when combo'd with Port. We liked FaF before because of the protection alone (it wrecks Team America), but we didn't have to abuse the untapping mechanic.
With those changes in mind, we have decided to add a singleton Karakas to the board in place of a Dueling Grounds.
Played the "stock" list last night, just with feast/famine in the body/mind slot.
Thoughts:
Deed=sigh
A revoker set on deed doesn't stop it if they swords the revoker. Against any deck with white I would much rather have had a needle in there, which leads me to believe we want light/shadow instead of the other swords, if nothing more than to protect the revoker. 3 moms isn't consistent enough to protect our hate bears, even with the shaman because then it takes 3 full turns to get mom going (pun intended)
mom: I so want her to work but as a 3-of you can't get her out quick enough, which in a perfect world would be end of turn two off vial after opponent has played a two drop and is tapped out.
Teeg: win. Took out aluren before I even knew what he was playing.
Two people quit on me calling me a noob because of the main deck revokers and o-rings. One of those being forgemaster which had its welder revoked and then forgemaster o-ringed after he was bragging about winning.
bob: yup
relic-warder: boo! most times I would have rathered a vindicate or even an o-ring. At least with sculler you get to see their hand and get to pick a spell. If they get it back at least you know what they have AND they still have to cast the removed spell if they get it back. Also, With warder you have to wait for a target or it's just a bear.
Vial: yes, please. having 2 out isn't that bad. Might want to drop to 3 if you add wayfarer?
sword of feast & famine: I'm so used to playing spells after attack that I messed this up twice. Against non blue decks this is really good. Cast bob, attack, untap, cast something else. The curve is so low that we can really speed up tempo if this connects.
stp: is it wrong that I wished this was pte or go for the throat? Whittle away the opponent's life to 10 and then they drop 2 6/7 goyfs or a 7/7 kotr that you have to stp. Now they are back up to 23!
I'm going to try soL&S tonight and also try a B/W only version. The teeg really helps the combo matchup, but what else would you tutor for with shaman? In short, what is green bringing that makes it better than being able to run vindicate? With so many vials you could probably run a single savannah and sb 3 teegs
I really want to like Mom but she just never seems to perform for me which is why I think Weathered Wayfarer is better. The original version was just BW and had 4.
I understand the thoughts about Relic Warder but he's always been good to me.
StP actually used to be Path in the original decklist. StPing Goyfs does suck, but so does Pathing Bob, just about everyone else.
I've really like Fauna Shaman every time I played her because she allowed me to get whatever the most pertinent creature/hate was. Being able to fetch Canonist and Teeg back to back is just good.
Contemplating going back to just BW and using the Enlightened Tutor, like someone suggested on the first page, instead of green. I'll definitely miss Teeg but the E Tutor targets are amazing. Outside of all the amazing targets main the SB is pretty much packed with targets already and we've already made room main for 4 tutors.
Ghostly Prison will replace Dueling Grounds, which is better anyway I just hadn't thought of it, and Another Canonist might replace the Teeg. Meekstone and Serenity are both good options as well. Meekstone for Zoo and Goyf/Knight control and Serenity obviously for Affinity, MUD, and Enchantress. Yes Serenity hurts us quite a bit but it's better than any of the alternatives and pretty much spells "Game OVER" for Affinity.
I would also replace the MD SoBaM with Feast and Famine instead now that we have Weathered Wayfarer. For the lands I would only play 4 Plains and play all 4 Wastelands and 1 Rishadan Port. You could probably take out even more plains for Ports if you really wanted but I'm not 100% sold on it without testing.
I've setup a number of BWG aggro decks kind of like this. Might try your version out since I have pretty much all the cards already.
Edit: Oh wait, you mentioned him. Never mind! I just like the Pridemage a lot more than Relic-Warder and was wondering why he is not on the list.
Hooah and I keep going back and forth about the two of them. The problem with Pridemage is that we have to get rid of him in order to use him. Yes Exalted is good, but the increased green density just isn't worth it IMHO. I think that Relic-Warder is the better choice here, but I may be wrong.
That's the thing. We've done some testing, and a whole lot of theorycrafting, but we can't do it all by ourselves. We posted the deck here to spark some interest in others in an attempt to get some testing results from others. We're open to any and all opinions/results at this point.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
Knight of the Reliquary has been discussed. It's off curve and doesn't get especially big while swinging. At this point the only land that she's gonna fetch are Wastelands. I do love the Knight though. I think she may be a one of to tutor for and throw in a Karakas. Having access to Maze of Ith would be nice but I really don't know what to cut.
The manabase is gonna need some testing with the new green especially if we want to throw in a Knight. I think adding Pridemages might strain the mana base, which I think is already gonna be kinda greedy. The thing that I really like about the Relic Warders is that they can't try to trick you into using them. Plus you can actually get rid of aWurmcoil Engine instead of just making smaller ones.
Goblins: 2-1
Merfolks: 2-1
Staxx: 2-1
Enchantress: 1-2
Zoo: 1-2
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
Would you mind posting the list you used so I can see what you took out for Goyf and your mana base?
How was Goyf? How did the mana base work for you? I expected Zoo to be a bad match, but how bad was it?
At first I thought this would be a pretty straight forward deck, but the more I play it the more I realize that there really are a lot of complex decisions to be made. I expect even more so once I start running Fauna Shaman.
I've been arguing with dorpkickdude over whether we should be running Vindicate or Oblivion Ring and now with green I'm leaning more towards O Ring due to the color requirements. Testing is still required but I like that it's an out to Emrakul as well.
4x Marsh Flats
3x Windswept Heath
3x Scrubland
3x Savannah
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Forest
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Dark Confidant
3x Mother of Runes
3x Fauna Shaman
3x Tarmogoyf
3x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Leonin Relic-Warder
2x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Oblivion Ring
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Engineered Plague
4x Duress
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Gaddock Teeg
1x Leonin Relic-Warder
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Sword of Body and Mind
The Zoo matchup was hard due to the efficiency of their burns, almost every creature this deck plays has toughness of 3 or less so it limits you:
- Tidehollow Sculler MUST grab the burn or will take it EOT. (unless there is something lot more relevant on his hand which we'll be in problem if he casts, in that case we gain some tempo with them burning our sculler)
- Mother of Runes isn't enough to protect your creatures
- Phyrexian Revoker has no target on this matchup
- Stoneforge package doesn't help us too much
- Their creatures are faster than we can remove them.
I've had no decent SB choice for this matchup, the match i've won was thanks for mana vial followed by 3 wastelands.
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
Thank you for this. It is exactly what we needed. I'm still firmly against Goyf in this deck. He offers no disruption. It looks like you put him in for Serra Avenger. At any point in your testing (particularly the matches you lost) would an evasive, vigilant angel been better than a big meat shield on the ground? How well were you able to pump Goyf by yourself?
@Hooah: I agree, now that we're going 3 color we should be running O-Ring.
So what can we do to sure up the Zoo matchup? I like SoBaM in the side. Did you side that in grixis? If so, did you ever see it? What do you guys think about Burrenton Forge-Tender in the side? Maybe side them in for Revokers if they are playing burn spells over Grim Lavamancer. Is it too narrow of usage? Is our matchup so bad that it warrants it? I think it may be too narrow myself, but I know some decks/people that like it.
I think we should either find a way to run 3 Mystics main, or run the third in the board. That may be better against Zoo. Finding SoBaM against them is practically game. I think in order to beat Zoo we have to turn up our clock a bit, and I think she's the way to do it.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Additionally, you cannot rely on equipment too much to take advantage of Dueling Grounds because Qasali Pridemage is a staple of Zoo and has LOTS of great targets, including Dueling Grounds itself. Phyrexian Revoker stops the Pridemage, which is great, and versus big zoo you have Noble Hierarch, Elspeth and Knight of the Reliquary as targets, but this is admittedly a matchup where he is only delaying the inevitable. At least he serves as a wonderful lightning rod.
Some options I can think of:
Kor Firewalker: Matches the 2cc focus of the deck and greatly slows down the burn strategy. Can only be removed by Swords to Plowshares. Beats for 2 and is a more reliable equipment holder than most versus Zoo. Has the benefit of hosing straight burn like no tomorrow, which this deck will also have some trouble against.
Burrenton Forge-Tender: This card is very useful despite my criticizing it above, but it needs to be in combination with a good 'out' to really help you win. My problem with it is it doesn't really contribute to the fight at all unless she is equipped. Additionally, good Zoo players will try to trick you into sacrificing her before moving in for the kill.
Jotun Grunt: I am aware you removed him for more techy cards, but this guy is one of your best bets versus Zoo. He can't be outright killed by any one of their removal spells save Plowshares or Fireblast (which they won't waste on him unless you are definitely going to win) and he is dedicated graveyard hate, getting rid of Lavamancer fuel and shrinking their biggest creatures. Additionally, he is a 4/4 for 2cc who can kill any of Zoo's obnoxiously strong 1-drops. If you're expecting Zoo, you really need to run this guy, at least in the SB. He will really, really help this matchup.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant: She gives your guys +3/+3 and makes them fly. Zoo has no inherent flyers. Good? Yes. I see it on SBs already but you might consider it MB if you expect a lot of Zoo.
Pernicious Deed: Set to 1cc, it kills your Aether Vials, but this can be a complete Zoo board wipe occasionally. Not a bad choice if Zoo's board position looks better than yours, too (this will be very often).
Maze of Ith: If you're set on running Dueling Grounds, run this too to take full advantage of it. That said, it's starting to change the focus of the deck, but I figured I'd mention it anyway!
I don't think Zoo will ever be a wonderful matchup for this deck - their creatures are just so efficient and fast, and their removal wipes pretty much all of the creatures in Hate Crimes. Additionally, this deck likes its artifact creatures, which the Pridemage can easily kill if necessary. But you might be able to make it 50/50 with enough stuff.
3 Scrubland
3 Savannah
4 Wasteland
3 Marsh Flats
3 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
Creatures 26
3 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
1 Leonin Relic Warder
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Serra Avenger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Fauna Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Spells 7
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Leonin Relic Warder
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Dueling Grounds
3 Perish
Maindeck changes were minimal. We decided on a 4:1 split of Phyrexian Revoker and Leonin Relic-Warder because Revoker is better almost all the time. The two Warders in the board come in against the matchups where he truly shines (CounterTop, Enchantress, and decks with Vial).
3 Fauna Shamans allow us to run the full set of Serra Avengers, which we really want. I cannot stress enough how good she is. She is a 4-of no matter what else you want to play.
Chalice of the Void is something we're really happy with in the board. It replaces StP against any Storm Combo or Belcher, and is deceptively good against Team America (shutting off their draw) and Zoo (blanking their burn, and not letting them play their annoying 1-drops), where we drop Teeg, Warder, and likely 2 Revokers. Team America and Zoo were the two decks we were most concerned with making sure we have stuff in the board to help us out against, as we see them as our worst matchups.
Perish also helps against those decks, and any others running Goyf as well. That is why we have 3 in the board, to replace O-Ring in such matchups. It also comes in the same against Elves.
Dueling Grounds is really helpful against tribal based aggro. It comes in against Goblins and Merfolk alongside the 2 extra Warders replacing SoBaM, 3 Revokers, and Teeg.
Gaddock Teeg is in the main as a tutor target against any deck where the primary method of victory is a high-cmc card, such as Tendrils of Agony, Natural Order, Progenitus, or Emrakul. He also warrants an extra slot in the board against those same decks.
Ethersworn Canonist is another Storm hate card that comes in alongside the extra Teeg replacing our O-Rings. She really shines there.
We figure we have such a bad matchup against Lands anyways, that we're just going to punt it. If your meta has Lands in it, perhaps you should consider Jotun Grunts. We figure it's not prevalent enough to worry about.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Kind of questioning SoBaM actually. The green protection is alright, and getting a dumb blocker is okay, but is milling ten cards really a good idea with all of the gy-based decks around? Creatures that would be this deck's bane, like Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary, could actually really benefit from the mill. I would probably take Feast and Famine over Body and Mind if you really want pro: green.
Also, is there any reason you have no grave hate at all?
No yard hate because Reanimator and Survival are dead and no one can afford to play Lands (and also because we're semi-retarded). We spent a lot of time discussing SB options and what we would put it/take out for certain matches. Of course we didn't talk about any of the yard based strategies because I've only played Lands, long enough to know that it wrecks us every time, and am more inclined to play Rock/Bant strategies so I always forget about the rest since Reanimator and Survival aren't around.
Dueling Grounds is for Tribal MUs and I can see it working really well. We did side it in, along with Canonist, against Thresh Vine today and it worked really well. Believe it or not we actually searched for and used SoBaM, attached to a Canonist, to win one game!
You're right that SoBaM grows creatures that are already a problem for us but the dumb blocker will step in front of them for and we might be able to pull out the win with the mill. Not ideal but it seems to be better than the others. Feast and Famine wouldn't be bad if we could consistently capitalize on the untap ability, but since we cant the blocker seems better imho.
I like Jotun Grunt, but I'm not real sure what I would cut from the board for him.
The SB is geared toward a local meta which I expect to be full of Combo and Tribal decks. I don't really expect to see much Zoo. Of course SB cards are always going to be meta dependent and I'm eager to hear people's opinions and testing with different cards in different MUs.
The more I think abut it, I think we're fine against gy decks. Teeg shuts off Dread Return, Dueling Grounds makes Zombie tokens useless, and StP makes Ichorid or Bloodghast a non issue. CotV at 1 hoses Reanimator pretty well if I'm not mistaken as well. Our only issue then is Loam, and you can't fix everything.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Teeg: I like teeg against these 12-post decks that are all over MWS. they stop repeal, all is dust, and that force of will they are somehow able to cram in, so he can protect your equipment, vials, etc.
Mom, Revoker: Check
SoB&M: Like others I'm not sold on soB&M. I like having access to protection from more than 3 colors. In theory it would be great to have access to all 5, but if you can only have 2 swords, then I would think 4 colors would be the best route. So which do you choose?
SoL&S: Pro-removal is nice. Pro-Kotr/Pridemage is nice. Lifegain is nice (though jitte can do this), but its weakness (was) a not-so-relevant ability since your other creatures weren't in the graveyard. They were exiled or grunted to the bottom of your library. With Fauna shaman you _will_ have creatures to return.
SoF&F: Pro-goyf, pro-elves, and pro-go for the throat is nice. Discard is nice but it's argued that it's not as relevant that late in the game? Maybe, but O-ring, attack, discard, untap, play untapped blocker (think sculler!) seems better than mill + token.
I worry about the amount of 2cc in the deck. Very little in the deck can be pierced but much can be snared. Deed on 2 sucks (not that it's much better on 3, but at least you should get a turn to try and deal), but I guess teeg can at least help against EE. Correct me if I'm wrong, but teeg needs to be in play when a spell is cast to stop it, and cannot be vialed in in-response correct?
Deuling Grounds: I like this because casually I love playing Silent Arbiter. I just wish it could be protected against grip or zealot. revoker can stop pridemage from taking it, though.
Really want an extirpate in the sb for well, just cause.
Thoughts about weathered wayfarer as a 1-of somewhere? Enables you to run the singleton karakas which can pseudo-protect your teeg, bounce iona (which then turns your only removal back on), recover from land destruction/give card advantage, and how cool is tutoring for a tutor for a land?
I am trying to make the Mom/Equipment/Vial route work for me in some form, d&T, uw tempo, deadguy ale... Just looking for the right combination to stick. I fear that this type of deck, whether aggro, control, taxing, whatever plays too fair to compete. I hope not!
I'll try it out tonight against the 12-post, affinity, and stax that seem to dominate mws and post my results.
This is correct. Just like Silence it won't uncast a spell that's been cast if you do it in response... You don't gain priority to respond until the spell is on the stack.
[Legacy]
ANT
Imperial Painter
I just want to reaffirm how much Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives wreck us. It's bad but can be overcome if you play smart.
I did a little more testing today:
Tendrils: won 2:1
MUD: Got smashed 0:2 but he drew the nuts both times.
UGB Control: lost 1:2 but it was close
Tendrils:
G1 I was on the play and T2 took an LED with Sculler seeing Thoughtseize, 2 Lotus Petal, Infernal Tutor and land. he Seizes my Revoker and I play Stoneforge for SoBaM equip it to Sculler and swing in hitting Tendrils, LED and some other stuff. He's at 10 and plays Cabal Ritual for AN taking him down to 5 and giving him Ill Gotten Gains LED and Infernal Tutor. He barely goes off.
G2 I side in 2 Canonist 1 Teeg and 4 Chalice. I mulligan and keep Chalice and Canonist. I ☺☺☺☺ up and don't play Chalice at 0 on my first turn! T2 I draw another Chalice, play one at 0 and play Canonist. He concedes
G3 I play Vial. T2 Sculler takes I Tutor. T3 I play Shaman. T4 I Shaman for Canonist and Vial it in. T5 I Shaman for Teeg and he concedes.
MUD:
G1: He plays T1 Ancient Tomb for Lightning Greaves which I take with Relic Warder. T3 he play Metalworker. I He makes 8 mana with it and plays Lodestone Golem and Crucible and goes to town on my manabase. I play revoker on Metalworker but it's a turn too late.
G2 He plays Ancient Tomb into Grim Monolith for Trinisphere. I had a good hand with Teeg and 2 Relic Warders but costing 3 keeps me off them since he plays Metalworker then Sundering Titan to destroy all my lands. I don't think it's unwinnable but without a Vial and him with a Metalworker life is difficult.
UGB Control:
G1: Nothing special. I Swords a Goyf and get in there with an Avenger with a Jitte thanks to Stoneforge. Side in 1 Teeg for the lone Relic Warder.
G2: This an epic battle that lasts forever. I survive 2 Pernicious Deed and play a Revoker naming Deed just in case. A couple turns later he K Grips my Revoker, which means no Mom protection, and deeds the rest of the board which was a Mom Bob and SobaM on Bob. A while later he EEs for 2 :(. Ultimately my Bob and his Goyf are trading punches and we both end up at 2 on my turn with no blockers on his side. I flip Serra Avenger to Bob... double
G3 I keep Plains, Vial, Mom, 2 Avenger, Sculler and a Relic Warder. I play Vial he Thoughtseizes Mom. Vial gets to 2 and he K Grips it on his turn. I draw 2 Wasteland and get my face beat by 2 Bobs with a Top out.
OP Updated to show current list as well as general SB strategies
Thoughts:
Deed=sigh
A revoker set on deed doesn't stop it if they swords the revoker. Against any deck with white I would much rather have had a needle in there, which leads me to believe we want light/shadow instead of the other swords, if nothing more than to protect the revoker. 3 moms isn't consistent enough to protect our hate bears, even with the shaman because then it takes 3 full turns to get mom going (pun intended)
mom: I so want her to work but as a 3-of you can't get her out quick enough, which in a perfect world would be end of turn two off vial after opponent has played a two drop and is tapped out.
Teeg: win. Took out aluren before I even knew what he was playing.
Two people quit on me calling me a noob because of the main deck revokers and o-rings. One of those being forgemaster which had its welder revoked and then forgemaster o-ringed after he was bragging about winning.
bob: yup
relic-warder: boo! most times I would have rathered a vindicate or even an o-ring. At least with sculler you get to see their hand and get to pick a spell. If they get it back at least you know what they have AND they still have to cast the removed spell if they get it back. Also, With warder you have to wait for a target or it's just a bear.
Vial: yes, please. having 2 out isn't that bad. Might want to drop to 3 if you add wayfarer?
sword of feast & famine: I'm so used to playing spells after attack that I messed this up twice. Against non blue decks this is really good. Cast bob, attack, untap, cast something else. The curve is so low that we can really speed up tempo if this connects.
stp: is it wrong that I wished this was pte or go for the throat? Whittle away the opponent's life to 10 and then they drop 2 6/7 goyfs or a 7/7 kotr that you have to stp. Now they are back up to 23!
I'm going to try soL&S tonight and also try a B/W only version. The teeg really helps the combo matchup, but what else would you tutor for with shaman? In short, what is green bringing that makes it better than being able to run vindicate? With so many vials you could probably run a single savannah and sb 3 teegs
After some talking today, Hooah and I have decided that Weathered Wayfarer should replace Mother of Runes. At merely a surface level he gets us more land, which is good because we only run 20. WW also allows us to tutor for Wastelands, which is just so good for us. Because we need so few land to operate, we can dedicate the resources we don't need in order to disrupt our opponent further. An extension of this strategy is to replace 1 Wasteland with a Rishadan Port, now that we have a tutor for it. Port allows us to shut off even Basic Land, and unlike Wasteland, allows us to both disrupt and use it for mana.
Sword of Feast and Famine should replace Sword of Body and Mind now that Wayfarer and Port have entered. We really liked BaM because of how well it played out against Goyf. Allowing us to swing through him and leaving a chump blocker behind at the cost of 0 cards is just so good. I was thinking today however, that FaF can do the same thing. With just one other creature on the board it acts similarly, because the untapping allows us to equip the sword to a now Goyf-proof creature and nets a card due to the discard effect as well. Alternatively, we can also use the mana to play a creature from our hand, which gives us a chump blocker that also likely has some disruptive effective as well. Thirdly it opens up a whole new world of disruption when combo'd with Port. We liked FaF before because of the protection alone (it wrecks Team America), but we didn't have to abuse the untapping mechanic.
With those changes in mind, we have decided to add a singleton Karakas to the board in place of a Dueling Grounds.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
I really want to like Mom but she just never seems to perform for me which is why I think Weathered Wayfarer is better. The original version was just BW and had 4.
I understand the thoughts about Relic Warder but he's always been good to me.
StP actually used to be Path in the original decklist. StPing Goyfs does suck, but so does Pathing Bob, just about everyone else.
I've really like Fauna Shaman every time I played her because she allowed me to get whatever the most pertinent creature/hate was. Being able to fetch Canonist and Teeg back to back is just good.
Ghostly Prison will replace Dueling Grounds, which is better anyway I just hadn't thought of it, and Another Canonist might replace the Teeg. Meekstone and Serenity are both good options as well. Meekstone for Zoo and Goyf/Knight control and Serenity obviously for Affinity, MUD, and Enchantress. Yes Serenity hurts us quite a bit but it's better than any of the alternatives and pretty much spells "Game OVER" for Affinity.
EDIT: D'oh. Ghostly Prison.
Lands WUBG
EDH:
Doran WBG
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Serenity
3 Ghostly Prison
1 Meekstone
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
I would also replace the MD SoBaM with Feast and Famine instead now that we have Weathered Wayfarer. For the lands I would only play 4 Plains and play all 4 Wastelands and 1 Rishadan Port. You could probably take out even more plains for Ports if you really wanted but I'm not 100% sold on it without testing.