Don't really like Fauna here. All your creatures seem to be doing somethinge effective to the game state, so not alot of discarding them as you go along. Why not try Wordly Tutor in it's place. That way your 1 of's are still accessible early.
It's nice to see you guys interested in this deck. Hooah and I talk about this deck multiple times a week, but we haven't been updating this thread. We both have gone back to the simple BW build, utilizing Enlightened Tutor to find a few things main, but to give us an extremely versatile sideboard. We were discussing Worldly Tutor just yesterday. Hooah didn't like the 3-color manabase, and still doesn't, but we both missed Gaddock Teeg in the main as well as a way to tutor up Serra Avenger. I will let Hooah give you his list, as I haven't updated mine recently, but expect us back here for more discussion. We liked Fauna Shaman, but she always seemed too slow. I think Worldly Tutor is the right choice in a build that goes the three color route, but we're sticking with just BW I think.
You could try Vexing Shusher for control decks, and Phyrexian Revoker is considered a hate bear as well, for random stuff. I'm sure there are others as well. Peacekeeper exists for decks that want to attack, but as a deck that wants to attack, I might pass on that one here.
Has there been any discussion about Eladamri's Call as a tutor? It costs one more, which is huge, but it works well with Vial and doesn't waste a draw phase. If the deck is keeping green in it, that is. Looking in another thread made me wonder, would it be crazy to splash red instead for Lightning Helix and Bolt and Grim Lavamancer?
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
Eladamri's Call is a legit choice if you're staying green I suppose, but what makes Worldly and Enlightened better in my opinion is that just about everything you want to tutor for costs 2, and you can find it turn 1 with them.
I think that splashing for red would take away from the creature base of the deck, but I welcome you to post a list for me to look at. I think Grim Lavamancer is sub-par simply because we don't fill the yard quick enough.
I went back to a WB build because I got tired of losing to Wasteland, and Fauna Shaman is often a turn too slow. We don't play enough lands to lose many and Wasteland things ourselves. I do like having the option to drop a big fat fattie like KotR (which is one of my pet cards anyway). Here's my current build which I'm testing for SCG Charlotte.
I moved up to 21 lands because I found the equipment extremely cumbersome but necessary. With 21 it makes it much easier to cast and equip the same turn. I found that I never really wanted to see more than 1 equipment ever so I cut SFM back to 2. SoBM is awesome against Bant, until they get a Pridemage, but I like it better than any of the swords that I don't MD and the wolf token is vital. Obviously getting your dead bears with Light and Shadow is good but you still have the problem of casting them after that.
If I were to play green here Worldy Tutor would definitely get the nod over any other creature tutor simply because it let's you play your hate on T2. I tried Go for the Throat over StP for a minute and the extra one cc was just too much, which means that Eladamri's Call is probably not good enough. GG for Shusher is going to be difficult to get and then you still need open green, making your stuff even more expensive :/
1 Canonist main is because I miss Teeg and I can fetch it with E Tutor. O Ring is also fetchable which is why I left one in. E Tutor let's you effectively play a much bigger board by giving you a variety of answers and a way to find the right one for the situation. The only thing E Tutor doesn't get that green does is Serra Avenger.
Null Rod is just plain good against some very nasty decks. It's auto win against Affinity (it even shuts off their land!) and MeanDeck MUD, as long as they haven't already got the game, and really good against ANT/TES and Counterbalance oddly enough, especially if they're wincon is Thopter Foundry. It also shuts off EE!!!!! Of course you probably wanna side out Vial, which just seems silly against CB but you win some you lose some.
The split between T Crypt and Relic is due to Pithing Needle. You want your GY hate to be as diverse as possible against Dredge.
The rest of the SB should be pretty self explanatory.
If you run into a deck playing EE or Deed you name it with Revoker try to get there with an equipped creature while holding back for when they do blow it. I once survived 3 Deed and an EE only to die to my own Bob the turn I was gonna win. I was Racing a Goyf and he hit for me 6 bringing us both to 2 and I flipped a Serra Avenger
I don't like True Believer at all. I just don't think he's disruptive enough. Against Storm you already have 2 Teeg, 2 Canonist, and probably some amount of Chalice. It's always best to stop the combo before it happens so they can't ADN or Wish for bounce.
Kataki isn't good because you don't have the mana to pay for all the artifacts you're going to need to keep on the board. Last tournament I played Lands against Affinity and they stayed even through a The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale for several turns until I dropped a Smokestack. Null Rod really is the only answer.
I had thought about Yxlid Jailer and she seems good but with E Tutor I went with artifacts instead.
grixis: What does your SB look like?
I was thinking about Bitterblossom today. I don't like losing more life, but losing 1 life a turn instead of a bear is good. A swarm of flyers can often win by themselves and even faster when they have something to carry. I'm not sure if it's good enough though. I really like that I can tutor for it though.
Unfortunately that's all I've got right now since I stopped testing this for a while because Lands was just so much better for my meta. I'm actively testing it again though and looking to play it for real soon.
And, any thoughts about running maybe 1-2 Vampire Hexmage and Dark Depths ? If we go that way we could use Living Wish. Maybe i'm just wanting too much but it's an idea.
Aven Mindscensor is terrible in this deck since it actually wants to search for stuff. It's good against a fair amount of decks but not backbreaking by the time it comes down usually.
I thought I had addressed Vexing Shusher. I think his GG requirement is gonna be really bad without a Vial in play at which point you don't need him anyway. Having to also use that G to pay for your stuff is pretty bad too. I'd just play Gaea's Herald instead, though I don't think he's necessary either.
Yes, you adressed Shusher, but when you posted i was writing my post.
I see your point. Have ideas for my sb? I expect an meta filled with at least 60% aggro.
Peacekeeper perhaps? You can't search him up, but it pretty much solves the aggro problem. Of course, you'll eventually have to sacrifice him to alpha strike, but that should be eventually possible with a large pile of swords and equipment available.
Ghostly Prison and Engineered Plague are musts against aggro. Meekstone is really good against Big Zoo/Junk/Team America. Null Rod if you're expecting any Affinity or MeanDeck MUD. Jotun Grunt is good against Thresh and other GY based stuff.
Unfortunately most of the answers aren't creatures, which is why I moved to E Tutor.
If you're really expecting aggro you might consider Damnation/***. I know they hurt you too, but if you plan for it you can hold cards back, wipe the board then vial things in and start swinging right away. But those don't work with Teeg.
A Goyf or two from the board could really help those MUs or maybe even Bitterblossom.
Edit: I missed your board earlier. I still don't like True Believer at all. I would play Tormod's Crypt over Bojuka Bog because it's almost alway better. If you have a Knight out you want to be swinging not holding her back and telegraphing that you're gonna a Bog as soon as it becomes relevant. Crypt is free to play and free to use and still gives you diversity. I like Ghostly Prison better than Dueling Grounds because it taxes their resources if they want to attack instead of them sending over one creature that we can't kill because everything is bigger than our guys. It has no downside for us especially if we Wasteland them a couple times. While you could tutor for Hexmage and Depths in the list you're running, I think it's just greedy. The list is tight enough and you're talking about two turns of tutoring before you can do anything and most likely it'll eat an StP or some other removal.
I think that Believer is as good as Teeg on the storm MU: Both serves with the purpose of won't let your opponent cast Tendrils of Agony. The difference is that Believer helps on burn matchups and Teeg helps against FOW.
I've been thinking on switching KotR or Avenger for Tarmogoyf.
The problem with Believer is that every Storm deck packs bounce, especially post board, and while you stop them from actually killing you with Tendrils/Empty the Warrens you don't stop them drawing every piece of removal they need with Ad Naseum or getting said bounce spell back with Ill-gotten Gains and bouncing it.
Teeg physically stops almost every card you should be worrying about against combo. He stops ADN, Iggy, Time Spiral, Turnabout, Empty the Warrens, Diminishing Returns, Dread Return (Breakfast and Dredge), Belcher, NO, Jace, Smokestack (OK not combo but I'm on a roll). Now that I remember how awesome Teeg is I might just have to play one or two again with one Savannah.
Chalice of the Void is amazing, especially with the other back up, against Storm and it pretty much spells GG for Burn while seriously slowing down Zoo, until they get a Pridemage which should be Revoker target #1 in that match up.
well, your guys are all weenies, and while it's not exactly tutorable, if the creatures are big enough, retribution of the meek should be a good answer to zoo and heavily lorded tribal. won't do diddly to goblins,t hough.
I really prefer Sword of LS over FF. The only deck that FF gives you almost complete immunity to is Team America and LS is still REALLY good against them. All the creatures they countered or killed on the early turns waiting to drop their own threat now get to come back and you gain life, which is really nice, plus it says pro targeted removal. Making them discard is often only so so by the time you actually play and equip the sword and you still need something to do the mana after you untap.
I like Meekstone more than Retribution of the meek. Often Retribution will only kill one creature, in which case I'd rather have StP/Vindicate/ORing and Meekstone is tutorable (if you're running E Tutor). Meekstone also stops a 3/4 Goyf, which they almost always are, as well as anything else that may come down and swing, or use an ability like KotR, later. Either way it's a SB card at best, but thinking outside the box is good keep it up.
Speaking of Team America, I played a handful of games against it today and did really well over all. Baiting counters and playing around Stifle is important. With some smart play and a Sculler or two you should be good. I brought in 1 Meekstone, 1 E Tutor, 1 Relic of Prog, 1 Tormod's Crypt, and 1 Sword of LS for 1 Revoker (EE is bad news), 1 Canonist, 1 Aether Vial, 1 Mom, and 1 SoFI. It worked really well and dropping a Meekstone against a tapped 3/4 Goyf bought me about 4 turns until he EEd for 1, leaving me with a Bob and something else while killing Meekstone and Vial.
I also played a couple games against Elfball no SB. I learned the hard way that Glimpse of Nature is almost ALWAYS the card you want to take with Sculler. Revoker being able to stop mana abilities is straight pro and he should never ever be sided out here. The games were pretty good overall and I think that especially post-board the MU is very strongly in our favor, but that's purely speculation. One game I gambled T1 and Wastelanded his Pendlehaven instead of StPing his Priest. He just happened to topdeck a Forest allowing him to continue to really be in the game
I really like FaF over LaS or BaM, but that's just me. I like the fact that it allows us to use Wasteland for mana on Main 1, then use it to destroy something Main 2. I like that it increases our clock while letting us play our own guys instead of a vanilla 2/2. And I really like it's ability to let us come back from negative board states. BaM is win-more for me, and LaS is only good if we've been trading guys (which we shouldn't be doing). What I want out of my Equipment is the ability to make the come back, and I think that FaF does that best.
I really like FaF over LaS or BaM, but that's just me. I like the fact that it allows us to use Wasteland for mana on Main 1, then use it to destroy something Main 2. I like that it increases our clock while letting us play our own guys instead of a vanilla 2/2. And I really like it's ability to let us come back from negative board states. BaM is win-more for me, and LaS is only good if we've been trading guys (which we shouldn't be doing). What I want out of my Equipment is the ability to make the come back, and I think that FaF does that best.
Edit: Expect a list from me later today.
Bant isn't an especially good MU and Bam says Pro-Bant which is awesome. There are a lot more people playing Bant than Team America. A vanilla 2/2 that doesn't cost us a card, therefore not overextending, and we don't care if it dies is usually better than untapping our lands.
Light and Shadow is definitely a SB card, but a good one I think.
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
2x Scrubland
2x Savannah
1x Bayou
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Forest
4x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Mother of Runes
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Serra Avenger
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Fauna Shaman
1x Leonin Relic-Warder
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x True Believer
1x Eternal Witness
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
Ok, not every creature on this deck is 2cmc which makes them more vulnerable to counterspells but...
Knight of the Reliquary gets really huge, fetches wasteland and may fetch any hate-land i put into my SB.
Kitchen Finks is amazing against aggro-burn matchups, specially Zoo, which on my first tests seemed like a bad match.
Eternal Witness, although is a 1-of, may recurr anything you need.
The 2-2 split of KotR and Avenger is an personal test. The 1-ofs is kind of an Toolbox for Fauna Shaman: True Believer for Storm MU's, Gaddock Teeg for Storm and also to "counter" FOW, Eternal Witness to recurr any card i need and Leonin Relic-Warder to any artifact/enchantment.
I'm kinda afraid of Engineered Explosives and Pernicious Deed, what should i do if i face an deck packing one of those cards?
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
Fauna Shaman
Pros:
- Beater to swing with a sword
- Puts card directly into your hand
- Constant tutor
- Can be vialed in
Cons:
- Dies to almost any removal
- Fragile body
- Has to stay on the board for at least 1 turn to be active.
Worldly Tutor
Pros:
- 1cmc
- Instant
- Doesn't need you to discard a useful creature to have another.
Cons:
- Can tutor only once
- Can be countered easily
- Tutors only once
Which one would you guys choose ?
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
Most important pro:
Gives you access to the game breaker you need T1 against Affinity/TES/Ad decks/GY based/etc.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Also:
Can you guys help-me posting cheap hate-creatures against those decks? I can think of:
Affinity -> Kataki, War's Wage
Storm -> True Believer, Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist
GY Base -> Yixilid Jailer
Are there more hate bears ?
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
Has there been any discussion about Eladamri's Call as a tutor? It costs one more, which is huge, but it works well with Vial and doesn't waste a draw phase. If the deck is keeping green in it, that is. Looking in another thread made me wonder, would it be crazy to splash red instead for Lightning Helix and Bolt and Grim Lavamancer?
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
I think that splashing for red would take away from the creature base of the deck, but I welcome you to post a list for me to look at. I think Grim Lavamancer is sub-par simply because we don't fill the yard quick enough.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
At the 2:
Kataki
Teeg
Shusher
Jailer
Believer
Canonist
Revoker
A Guildmage (tapping effect)
At the 3:
Mindcensor
Finks
Harmonic Sliver
Necrotic Sliver
Caller of the Claw
too tired to think of all of them...But WT is better than Shaman or Call imo.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
1 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Serra Avenger
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Phyrexian Revoker
Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Vindicate
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Swords to Plowshares
Land
4 Marsh Flats
2 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
1 Karakas
5 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Null Rod
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Engineered Plague
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Runed Halo
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Meekstone
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
I moved up to 21 lands because I found the equipment extremely cumbersome but necessary. With 21 it makes it much easier to cast and equip the same turn. I found that I never really wanted to see more than 1 equipment ever so I cut SFM back to 2. SoBM is awesome against Bant, until they get a Pridemage, but I like it better than any of the swords that I don't MD and the wolf token is vital. Obviously getting your dead bears with Light and Shadow is good but you still have the problem of casting them after that.
If I were to play green here Worldy Tutor would definitely get the nod over any other creature tutor simply because it let's you play your hate on T2. I tried Go for the Throat over StP for a minute and the extra one cc was just too much, which means that Eladamri's Call is probably not good enough. GG for Shusher is going to be difficult to get and then you still need open green, making your stuff even more expensive :/
1 Canonist main is because I miss Teeg and I can fetch it with E Tutor. O Ring is also fetchable which is why I left one in. E Tutor let's you effectively play a much bigger board by giving you a variety of answers and a way to find the right one for the situation. The only thing E Tutor doesn't get that green does is Serra Avenger.
Null Rod is just plain good against some very nasty decks. It's auto win against Affinity (it even shuts off their land!) and MeanDeck MUD, as long as they haven't already got the game, and really good against ANT/TES and Counterbalance oddly enough, especially if they're wincon is Thopter Foundry. It also shuts off EE!!!!! Of course you probably wanna side out Vial, which just seems silly against CB but you win some you lose some.
The split between T Crypt and Relic is due to Pithing Needle. You want your GY hate to be as diverse as possible against Dredge.
The rest of the SB should be pretty self explanatory.
If you run into a deck playing EE or Deed you name it with Revoker try to get there with an equipped creature while holding back for when they do blow it. I once survived 3 Deed and an EE only to die to my own Bob the turn I was gonna win. I was Racing a Goyf and he hit for me 6 bringing us both to 2 and I flipped a Serra Avenger
I don't like True Believer at all. I just don't think he's disruptive enough. Against Storm you already have 2 Teeg, 2 Canonist, and probably some amount of Chalice. It's always best to stop the combo before it happens so they can't ADN or Wish for bounce.
Kataki isn't good because you don't have the mana to pay for all the artifacts you're going to need to keep on the board. Last tournament I played Lands against Affinity and they stayed even through a The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale for several turns until I dropped a Smokestack. Null Rod really is the only answer.
I had thought about Yxlid Jailer and she seems good but with E Tutor I went with artifacts instead.
grixis: What does your SB look like?
I was thinking about Bitterblossom today. I don't like losing more life, but losing 1 life a turn instead of a bear is good. A swarm of flyers can often win by themselves and even faster when they have something to carry. I'm not sure if it's good enough though. I really like that I can tutor for it though.
Unfortunately that's all I've got right now since I stopped testing this for a while because Lands was just so much better for my meta. I'm actively testing it again though and looking to play it for real soon.
Thoughts on Vexing Shusher ?
I'm currently building my SB, but for now it is:
3x Leonin Relic-Warder
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Dueling Grounds
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x True Believer
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Bojuka Bog
And, any thoughts about running maybe 1-2 Vampire Hexmage and Dark Depths ? If we go that way we could use Living Wish. Maybe i'm just wanting too much but it's an idea.
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
I thought I had addressed Vexing Shusher. I think his GG requirement is gonna be really bad without a Vial in play at which point you don't need him anyway. Having to also use that G to pay for your stuff is pretty bad too. I'd just play Gaea's Herald instead, though I don't think he's necessary either.
I see your point. Have ideas for my sb? I expect an meta filled with at least 60% aggro.
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
Peacekeeper perhaps? You can't search him up, but it pretty much solves the aggro problem. Of course, you'll eventually have to sacrifice him to alpha strike, but that should be eventually possible with a large pile of swords and equipment available.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Unfortunately most of the answers aren't creatures, which is why I moved to E Tutor.
If you're really expecting aggro you might consider Damnation/***. I know they hurt you too, but if you plan for it you can hold cards back, wipe the board then vial things in and start swinging right away. But those don't work with Teeg.
A Goyf or two from the board could really help those MUs or maybe even Bitterblossom.
Edit: I missed your board earlier. I still don't like True Believer at all. I would play Tormod's Crypt over Bojuka Bog because it's almost alway better. If you have a Knight out you want to be swinging not holding her back and telegraphing that you're gonna a Bog as soon as it becomes relevant. Crypt is free to play and free to use and still gives you diversity. I like Ghostly Prison better than Dueling Grounds because it taxes their resources if they want to attack instead of them sending over one creature that we can't kill because everything is bigger than our guys. It has no downside for us especially if we Wasteland them a couple times. While you could tutor for Hexmage and Depths in the list you're running, I think it's just greedy. The list is tight enough and you're talking about two turns of tutoring before you can do anything and most likely it'll eat an StP or some other removal.
I've been thinking on switching KotR or Avenger for Tarmogoyf.
Also, i agreed on Ghostly Prison being better than Dueling Grounds
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
Teeg physically stops almost every card you should be worrying about against combo. He stops ADN, Iggy, Time Spiral, Turnabout, Empty the Warrens, Diminishing Returns, Dread Return (Breakfast and Dredge), Belcher, NO, Jace, Smokestack (OK not combo but I'm on a roll). Now that I remember how awesome Teeg is I might just have to play one or two again with one Savannah.
Chalice of the Void is amazing, especially with the other back up, against Storm and it pretty much spells GG for Burn while seriously slowing down Zoo, until they get a Pridemage which should be Revoker target #1 in that match up.
Would you guys rather have Sword of L&S or Sword of F&F ?
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
I like Meekstone more than Retribution of the meek. Often Retribution will only kill one creature, in which case I'd rather have StP/Vindicate/ORing and Meekstone is tutorable (if you're running E Tutor). Meekstone also stops a 3/4 Goyf, which they almost always are, as well as anything else that may come down and swing, or use an ability like KotR, later. Either way it's a SB card at best, but thinking outside the box is good keep it up.
Speaking of Team America, I played a handful of games against it today and did really well over all. Baiting counters and playing around Stifle is important. With some smart play and a Sculler or two you should be good. I brought in 1 Meekstone, 1 E Tutor, 1 Relic of Prog, 1 Tormod's Crypt, and 1 Sword of LS for 1 Revoker (EE is bad news), 1 Canonist, 1 Aether Vial, 1 Mom, and 1 SoFI. It worked really well and dropping a Meekstone against a tapped 3/4 Goyf bought me about 4 turns until he EEd for 1, leaving me with a Bob and something else while killing Meekstone and Vial.
I also played a couple games against Elfball no SB. I learned the hard way that Glimpse of Nature is almost ALWAYS the card you want to take with Sculler. Revoker being able to stop mana abilities is straight pro and he should never ever be sided out here. The games were pretty good overall and I think that especially post-board the MU is very strongly in our favor, but that's purely speculation. One game I gambled T1 and Wastelanded his Pendlehaven instead of StPing his Priest. He just happened to topdeck a Forest allowing him to continue to really be in the game
Edit: Expect a list from me later today.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Bant isn't an especially good MU and Bam says Pro-Bant which is awesome. There are a lot more people playing Bant than Team America. A vanilla 2/2 that doesn't cost us a card, therefore not overextending, and we don't care if it dies is usually better than untapping our lands.
Light and Shadow is definitely a SB card, but a good one I think.
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos