Green Sun Bant is rough because of Qasali Pridemage and Jace, of course NO is bad if it happens too.
I haven't actually played against Zoo but I imagine pre-board it would be fairly tough. Of course post board you have Chalice at 1 and Meekstone if you drop it before Chalice. It's still probably the worst MU overall. Good thing not that many people play it much anymore.
If Painter switches to Show and Tell it's usually gonna be pretty bad because the only thing you can do is ORing Emrakul.
G1 most combo can get you if they have a fairly quick hand and you can't tell what they're playing before they go off. The fact that Revoker stops mana abilities gives you a fighting chance if you guess what they're playing quickly.
This deck is a lot like New Horizons in the sense that there are no free wins but you don't roll over to any either. Tight play and knowing what cards they are probably playing is key. Knowing what cards to use to bait counters is really handy too, but it only works if you can figure out what they have.
The SB is probably more important to this deck than most other decks I've played, and also what makes it really good against the majority of the field. I almost always side 5-7 cards.
Edit: OP updated with the list that I think is currently optimal.
Played in a small local event last night and got 3rd losing to Dreadstill (which I lent the guy)in the T4.
R1 got paired against Team America and got blown out by a double Wasteland hand G1. G2 he mulled once and I beat him fairly well with a T2 Relic of Progenitus. G3 he mulled to 5 and I was able to play around Stifle and drop a timely Revoker to stop from being EEd.
R2: Jank Aggro Elves. I beat him easily with a Sculler that had a SoFI on it with mom protection and a Revoker naming Ezuri. G2 I keep a hand with E Plague and SFM. T2 SFM for SoBaM. T3 Play plague bringing his elves back to 1/1s. EoT4 I E Tutor for another Plague and win with a sword.
R3: Merfolk. I don't remember a whole lot about G1. G2 I'm staring down 2 Cursecatchers and 2 Adepts. I have an E Plague and Ghostly Prison in hand. He only has 2 lands and I drop an E Plague as counter bait. It sticks! I win.
ID against Dreadstill and play some games anyway. He drops T2 Dreadnought a couple times and counters my Tutored ORing and Vindicate. I see Threads of Disloyalty out of the board and frown. In retrospect I should've just played it out and let the standing fall where they will.
3-0-1 after swiss.
I play against Dreadstill and keep a bad hand, it's midnight and I'm already mad about some other things. I keep Wasteland, Vial and 5 others. Vial gets forced and he has forever to win. G2 and Early Dreadnought gets StPed. I get Firespouted. He beats with Mishra's Factory. He starts fatesealing Jace and I decide I can race with my Avenger. At this point I have Chalice at 1 and another in my hand. I misplay and don't drop a land, I draw another land and would've played Chalice at 3... get Firespouted losing my threat. Jace continues to roll up and he lets me keep a Runed Halo just to hard cast FoW. I get Jaced with 3 land in my hand. I was at 2 he was at 3 I didn't see a single Revoker, which I would've been able to Vial in to stop Jace and ultimately win. Them's the breaks.
We've discussed them. I really like Yixlid Jailer in the green version where you can actually tutor for it, but in our BW stock build we have no way to go find it. Kataki, War's Wage is not very good for us though. We run only a small amount of mana sources, and we play a great deal of artifacts ourselves. Phyrexian Revoker, Tidehollow Sculler, Aether Vial, Swords, Umezawa's Jitte, and just about anything out of the board. I don't think Kataki fits here.
Sooooo.... I just got 6th in Charlotte with this. You can see my list on SCG as well as a full write up on how AJ Sacher curb stomped me in the T8. I said Junk was my worst MU... I was wrong. I never want to play against AJ's build again with this deck. I'll post more about it later when I've had more than 9 hours of sleep in 2 days.
Sooooo.... I just got 6th in Charlotte with this. You can see my list on SCG as well as a full write up on how AJ Sacher curb stomped me in the T8. I said Junk was my worst MU... I was wrong. I never want to play against AJ's build again with this deck. I'll post more about it later when I've had more than 9 hours of sleep in 2 days.
That's amazing bro! Congratufrickinlations!!!! Just read (and bookmarked) the article. Talk about a bad matchup... Unfortunately the decklist shows "BW Aggro" instead of what it should say, but meh. I will certainly call you on my way home from work today to talk about it all.
Tournament report: Top 8 SCG Legacy Open Charlotte. I didn't take very good notes and it was a long day so some of the information may be slightly wrong but I'm pretty confidant in most of it.
Round 1: Philip Braverman playing Junk. He ended up 12th
G1: He opens with Diamond, land and I expect to hymned but he drops Bob. I crack a fetch for a Plains during my turn and he says "Don't swords him bro!" Play STP. He StPs my T2 Confidant. I end up playing Avenger and I beat him without any trouble.
SB: In comes Meekstone, E Tutor, and the yard hate.
G2: I play T1 Vial he Hymns me for 2 land. I end up with a relic removing a card a turn to keep his critters small. He plays Top and gets good ☺☺☺☺. I get him to 6 and he beats my face from 20-16-10-dead. He ends up playing 2 StpS and I think 3 Vindicates. it sucked.
G3: I play Vial into Mom, he breaks Deed at 1 leaving his Bob on board. I don't remember how I got him to 6. In the end I have Meekstone and Relic against his 2 Bob and 2 Goyf. I know he has a KotR in hand. He swings all out when I'm at 14 and I'm forced to break Relic to Survive. Somehow he ends up hitting me for 10 next turn, or maybe I scooped, I don't remember.
0-1 Matches, 1-2 Games. ☺☺☺☺ty way to start the day.
Round 2: Doug with Fishies
G1: I cant get a Revoker to stick on Vial He gets 2 Adepts and an LoA. I get him to 15 before his army of lords and adepts smashes me.
SB: In comes 2 Ghostly Prison, 1 Meekstone, 1 E Tutor and miser's Plague (probably not the best call and I take it out for G3)
G2: I Sculler and see Kira, Coralhelm Commander, and Merfolk Sovereign. I take Kira. He plays Coralhelm and I drop a Revoker naming it before he can level it. plays a Cursecatcher and a Merfolk Soverign and hits me with the 2 already in play bringing me to 12. I drop a Meekstone and he waits a turn or two to attack with his other 2 guys. I get another Sculler and see Island He swings bringin me to 6 and I start swinging back. I block his next threat with my blank Sculler and swing in for the win.
1-1 Matches, 3-2 Games
Round 3: Ryan with Dredge
G1: I see LED while he's shuffling and put him on Tendrils. He wins the die roll and plays Cephalid Coliseum and LED. DREDGE! I've never played against it before but I am familiar with how it operates. I Wasteland his Coliseum and he dumps his hand to LED. He dredges 5 and hits a Narcomeoba and Ichorid. He swings with Ichorid and Narc and I StP the Ichorid. WOOT! I drop Bob and Mom and start swinging back. I drop a Jitte when I'm at 10 hit him, kill my Bob to remove his Bridge kill 1 of his 2 Narcs to keep him away from the Dread Returns and Angel of Despair in his yard. Mom picks up the Jitte and beats face for the win! Gotta love Mom beats. Between games he complains that my Revokers are Jap and gets an oracle text from a judge.
SB: 1 E Tutor, 2 Ghostly Prison, 1 Relic, 1 Crypt
G2: We both mulligan. I keep Revoker, Mom, Jitte, he mulls to 4. I play Mom and on his second turn he plays Putrid Imp. i play my Revoker turn 2 and pause, he says, "Sure." I name Putrid Imp and he tries to respond by pitching a card. I tell him he can't do it once the cards been named and we argue for a minute until I call a judge. The judge tells him that I'm right and then he tried to change his story and act like I didn't give him time to react. The judge sees through it and Ryan proceeds to be a sulking ***** while I demolish him with bears and Jitte.
2-1 Matches, 5-2 Games.
Round 4: Mike Ward with Fish
G1: I know he's playing Fish going into it. I win the roll and drop a Vial. He plays Island, Cursecatcher. I get play a Revoker naming Coralhelm Commander since he didn't drop a Vial T1 and Commander is easily my biggest problem other than Vial. He topdecks Vial with still one land *sigh* At the end of his next draw step I vial in Sculler and see: Cursecatcher, Daze, Adept, Reejery and Commander. I take the Reejery. He topdecks like a champ into some fast beats.
SB: In comes 1 E Tutor, 2 Ghostly Prison, 1 Meekstone.
G2: I land a SFM and get SoFI and Stoneforge it in while StP a Lord I think. I equip connect once and he scoops.
G3: He starts with some Mutavault beats and drops more dudes. I have a Revoker naming Vial that I don't want to get rid of because he has 2 out and a grip full of cards. I get a SFM for Jitte as my life keeps dwindling. I'm forced to make some trades and Mystic in the Jitte as she dies. I draw an Avenger and equip her to stabalize at 1. He has 3 Vials, on 4, 3, and 2, and I saw a Sower last game. I assume he has Sower in hand since he moved it up to four but he only has 3 lands. Avenger puts counters on Jitte and draws a 4th land but can't take anything because I'd remove the counters to get it back. Avenger gets there.
3-1 Matches, 7-3 Games
Round 5: Nate Pease (who won the Standard Open) with Affinity
G1: I mull to 5. He wins the roll and drops most of his hand on table. T2 he plays a master of Etherium and hits me for 2! He equips Cranial Plating to a Signal Pest and I StP it but still go to 6 from his attack and promtply die next turn.
SB: In comes 1 E Tutor, 1 Null Rod, 2 Ghostly Prison, 2 Chalice of the Void.
I keep a hand with Chalice, E Tutor, and 2 lands. T1 fetch, Chalice at 0 pass the turn. He plays a land and a Springleaf Drum. EoT I fetch and tutor for Null Rod. Play Null Rod and pass. He's obviosly got nothing. I play a Sculler and he scopps in response.
G3: He plays a Pest and a land. I waste the land. Plays Cranial Plating. Next turn he tries to equip to Pest and I StP in response. I land a Bob and waste another land. I Revoker his Opal and then Tutor for Null Rod and he scoops, moping away with his shiny trophy.
4-1 Matches, 9-4 Games
Round 6: Mike Turpyn playing High Tide.
G1: I knew what he was playing because I'd seem him 2 rounds earlier going off. I keep 2 Sculler and a Mom in my opener. I misplay by not dropping Mom T1 and he manipulates his draws. I play Sculler and he Brainstorms in response. I see Meditate, Force, Brainstorm, merchant Scroll, High Tide, Candelabra. I don't have a Revoker so I take the Candelabra. I know I probably should've taken the HT but I wasn't sure because of the Brainstorm. I draw and play another Sculler T3 and he Forces pitching a Brainstorm. I play the 3rd Sculler and see 2 more Candelabras and a Brainstorm. I tae the Merchant Scroll because I figure it could do the most damage, again probably not the best choice. I get him to 14 and he goes off.
SB: 1 E Tutor, 2 Chalice of the Void, 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 1 Runed Halo, 1 Relic, 1 Crypt
G2: I play T1 Vial and Crypt pass the turn. He does some stuff and gets beat on by some bears. I name Blue Sun Zenith with Runed Halo making him play a billion spells instead of just the a billion mana. He plays HT, taps a bunch and starts going off. In response to him playing Candelabra, I Vial in Revoker naming Candelabra and smile, earning a "Touche" and a pass of the turn. I continue to beat face eventually I stall long enough to win.
G3: I had sided out 1 Vial and decide it really needs to go back in. I manage to land a Vial and he tried to go off again earning a Vialed Revoker again in response to casting Candelabra. I tutor for a Chalice and attempt it at 1 but he Forces. I tutor at the end of his next turn for a Canonist, which I probably should've done the turn before but I didn't see it and figured Chalice at 1 was really good, and Vial it in at his next EoT. He plays Cunning Wish and I figure he's going to get Rebuild and my game is over. He gets Repeal! He tells me afterwards he doesn't have Rebuild and he brought in Hurkyll's Recall so he could Merchant Scroll for it. Swing away and vial in Bob. Bob reveals Revoker and I draw another. I swing with the crew putting him at 6 and hard cast a Revoker, which he lets resolve, leaving me with a Canonist, Bob, 2 Revokers, and a Vial on 2. On his turn he Repeals Canonist and Wipe Aways my Vial but isn't able to end the game and thanks to my hard cast Revoker I get in for 6.
5-1 Matches, 11-5 Games
Round 7: Mitch Calhoun with NO Elves
G1: He wins the roll and plays Forest. I obviously put him on Elves but I was thinking combo. I drop a Vial. He plays Dryad Abor which I waste. T3 I get a Sculler and see: 2 NO, Champion, Perfect, Ezuri, and Forest. I take the Perfect with a StP in hand. he gets some beats in eventually getting me to 11 but I'm able to control the field with a Sculler equipped with SoFI thanks to SFM.
SB: 1 E Tutor, 2 Ghostly Prison, 1 Runed Halo, 2 E Plague.
G2: it's not of a game as I kept 2 Mom and an Avenger. I'm able to keep him at bay and control his field until I drop a Ghostly Prison making his Perfect pretty tame. I Vindicate a forest, leaving him with 2, to keep him off NO since I can't contain all his creatures anymore. I just slow roll him with Avenger leaving the Moms back in case he can get rid of my Prison.
6-1 Matches, 13-5 Games
Round 8: Chris Boozer, Aggro Bant
G1: I thought I saw him playing Meandeck MUD earlier and knew I was wrong when he dropped a Trop. He Forced my Vial and StPd my Mom. I StPd a Rhox War Monk and I think a Goyf. i landed a SFM and equipped it with SoFI killing his Heirarch. He scoops.
SB: E Tutor, Meekstone, Runed Halo because I don't know if he's playing NO or not.
G2: I get a Bob and StP a Goyf with nothing in the yard and a Heirarch. I find a SoBaM start making bodies at which point he scoops.
7-1 Matches, 15-5 Games
Round 9: ID to make T8. I make it at number 6.
T8: AJ Sacher with UR Control.
I knew going into this event that the three cards i never want to see are EE, Pernicious Deed, and Grim Lavamancer. You can read all about how AJ curb-stomped me with multiples of 2/3 of those cards in the coverage on SCG. I'd link it but I can't access SCG at work. I just didn't have enough Revokers. I had honestly considered putting a single Pithing Needle in the board soley for Academy Ruins prior to the event. Just some insight into some of the plays. I didn't StP his first Lavamancer at his EoT because I was pretty sure he had Daze, which he did. I took the card I did with Sculler because I was trying to bait him into using his resources on my Sculler so I could safely drop a Revoker on SDT. It obviously didn't work and when I forgot that Fire//Ice can divide it's damage I knew I was ☺☺☺☺ed. G2 I had 2 Bobs and the Avenger in my opening hand. It sucks when your turn 2-4 plays are all countered. AJ was actually pretty cool throught the whole thing, maybe it was because he knew it was a great MU for him. I honestly expected him to be a total douche and I was pleasantly surprised that it wasn't the case.
MVP: Phyrexian Revoker. He just wins games. I sided 1 copy out once yesterday. He's that good.
Despite SCG listing it as BW Aggro, there's very little aggro in this deck. You almost always play the control part. It's not the easiest to pilot but it doesn't auto-scoop to anything, except apparently decks playing 3 Spell Snare, 3 reccurring EE, and 4 Lavamancers, but it doesn't have any free wins either.
Is there any room for 3x perish in the 75? I think it's one of the strongest answers black has to elves, goyf, kotr, noble, etc.
Edit:
Also have you faced an opposing energy flux? I know I play it in my sb when I play fish.
Also, what about a single ancient den or vault of whispers in case you get wasted and then mana screwed, but still have e-tutor in hand?
Never had an Energry Glux come down on me but it would definitely suck.
Perish was a 3 of in the board for a while, completely different board at the time, a wide variety of answers and E Tutor is really good. I'm sure you probably could fit it in the board, but I like the diversity of the current board... plus I only have 1 Perish lol.
E Plague and Ghostly Prison are both really good against elves, depending on the build one is obv better than the other. There's 8 spot removal and Revoker can turn off Night and Noble. Not the best but it certainly helps.
I usually fetch basics first unless I have to grab a Scrub to avoid Wasteland. Plus if I'm really hurting and need some mana I would probably grab a Vial with tutor before another land honestly. It's an interesting thought though.
So I tried tim's list extensively on MWs. somehow beat junk with multiple scullers and revokers targeting deed, and finally a sob&m got me there. P.S. I'm still not sold on sob&m against junk because of the mill. however my opponent was at 14 cards in library when he rage quit, and was unable to fetch anything with a green sun's zentih a few turns beforehand.
Tim, I was wondering if you could tell us what you usually sided OUT in the matchups. Probably my weakest area is knowing what's best to take out vs. what to put in.
Great work in Charlotte! After initially seeing a list like this in the Kansas City Top 8, where I finished second, I've been playing a LOT with it. I'll post my list later and see what you guys think, can I ask about the reasoning for Sword of Body and mind? I haven't read the full six pages of thread, so I might be missing it.
I've had a ton of success with my list (all serious testing, can't make it to events), and would love to jump into this conversation.
Great work in Charlotte! After initially seeing a list like this in the Kansas City Top 8, where I finished second, I've been playing a LOT with it. I'll post my list later and see what you guys think, can I ask about the reasoning for Sword of Body and mind? I haven't read the full six pages of thread, so I might be missing it.
I've had a ton of success with my list (all serious testing, can't make it to events), and would love to jump into this conversation.
The sword helps push through damage against green (and fish, too) while giving a blocker that (if enough mana) you can re-equip. I'm still not sold on it vs. feast and famine, because you're pumping their goyfs and kotrs, but I really do think this deck needs a pro-green sword, because legacy's main ground creatures are green (and blue.)
The main reason that SoBaM is in the main here is to create a blocker as we swing through Goyfs. We really hate to use our guys as chumps, and BaM gives us something we don't care to lose.
Tim, I was wondering if you could tell us what you usually sided OUT in the matchups. Probably my weakest area is knowing what's best to take out vs. what to put in.
Man, I was trying to avoid this lol. I didn't write it down and it was pretty hard to come up with sometimes. I need to update the primer anyway so I might as well but I don't have the time right this minute. I'll do my best to get back to it quickly though.
Great work in Charlotte! After initially seeing a list like this in the Kansas City Top 8, where I finished second, I've been playing a LOT with it. I'll post my list later and see what you guys think, can I ask about the reasoning for Sword of Body and mind? I haven't read the full six pages of thread, so I might be missing it.
I've had a ton of success with my list (all serious testing, can't make it to events), and would love to jump into this conversation.
Bottom line is Tarmogoyf is really really bad and Knight of the Reliquary isn't really any better, although post board we can have SoLaS if need be. This is easily the most debated slot in the list and many people say SoFaF is better.
We need something that allows us to block Goyf and other green fatties and it's nice to be able to push the damage through against them as well. With FaF you get one or the other unless you have another critter in your hand. FaF also leaves you prone to overextending into a sweeper, EE or Deed, since you want to use that extra mana. I would much rather push 4-5 damage through AND have a free blocker that I don't care about, which is almost never any of the creatures in this deck, for the thing that I don't want to hit me. If there is one Goyf/Knight on the table, it doesn't matter what I've milled into their yard because it still won't hit me, unless of course they remove the wolf first.
Some people say that you mill them closer to an answer. I disagree. The chance of me milling that answer is much greater, 10-1, than my opponent drawing that card. I'm willing to live with that.
There isn't a whole lot of discard in the deck to be synergistic with FaF. It doesn't let you look at their hand, it's not random, and it requires extra resources to use the second ability.
If you're against combo, SoFI and Jitte are better, then wolf adds some extra pressure and hopefully you'll put some wincons in their yard.
Okay, here's my list. My Swords package is different because I'm running more disruption than you did, and I don't have huge problems with Goyf or Knights, though I certainly understand your position on it better and see your argument.
Lands (21):
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Rishadan Port
Creatures (17):
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
3 Serra Avenger
4 Tidehollow Sculler
Spells (22):
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
I've been running Light and Shadow because having protection from their Swords to Plowshares has been really important, but I can see it easily changing to another sword.
I like the Revokers but not sure where they come from in my build. I love having 6 Thoughtseize effects because I spend Turns 1-3 stripping their hand and laying the seeds of my long game (vial, Bobs, Tops, Stoneforges), and in the mid game I feel like I have much better topdecks than most decks. In addition, combo matches are actually winnable Game 1 between the 5 mana-denial lands and the 10 cards that strip cards from their hand.
Tops are INSANE in this deck. They help you play nice with Bob, and you can effectively give a creature haste and protect it on the top of your library when you have Tops and Vials.
The last equipment slot has rotated more than anything else in my list, and I might give Body and Mind a try.
Okay, here's my list. My Swords package is different because I'm running more disruption than you did, and I don't have huge problems with Goyf or Knights, though I certainly understand your position on it better and see your argument.
Lands (21):
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Rishadan Port
Creatures (17):
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
3 Serra Avenger
4 Tidehollow Sculler
Spells (22):
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
I've been running Light and Shadow because having protection from their Swords to Plowshares has been really important, but I can see it easily changing to another sword.
I like the Revokers but not sure where they come from in my build. I love having 6 Thoughtseize effects because I spend Turns 1-3 stripping their hand and laying the seeds of my long game (vial, Bobs, Tops, Stoneforges), and in the mid game I feel like I have much better topdecks than most decks. In addition, combo matches are actually winnable Game 1 between the 5 mana-denial lands and the 10 cards that strip cards from their hand.
Tops are INSANE in this deck. They help you play nice with Bob, and you can effectively give a creature haste and protect it on the top of your library when you have Tops and Vials.
The last equipment slot has rotated more than anything else in my list, and I might give Body and Mind a try.
I like the deck, and definitely won't argue against top at all, because when you play it you at least *feel* like you have a clear edge. Whether or not you actually do (since it could have been a threat to begin with), I dunno.
However, how can you say you have better topdecks than most decks when 6 of your spells (discard) do (little to) nothing in topdeck mode? and 4 of those make you lose 2 life even if they do something?
I like the deck, and definitely won't argue against top at all, because when you play it you at least *feel* like you have a clear edge. Whether or not you actually do (since it could have been a threat to begin with), I dunno.
However, how can you say you have better topdecks than most decks when 6 of your spells (discard) do (little to) nothing in topdeck mode? and 4 of those make you lose 2 life even if they do something?
Because in the mid game, Turns 4-6 (ish), I'm usually going to still hit something with those discard spells. I also have Vials, which can be pretty dead.
But what I mean is that against a deck like Merfolk or Goblins, decks that rely on synergy, I think I'm hitting higher-impact cards (Ringleader not withstanding). They draw something like a Lord of Atlantis or Daze, and I draw a Mystic to fetch an equipment or any random dude to put equipment on I already have around.
Trust me when I say Top is incredible in this deck. Even in the game where you're just setting up Confidant draws, it's huge. It's interactions with Vial are also very nice.
I don't buy that "just putting in a threat" is better, because sometimes you want a Serra Avenger and other times you really need a Vindicate. These are vastly different lines of play, and having Top gives you that opportunity.
The original reason I put Top and Port into the deck is because I was saving mana with Vial but having very little to do with it. The reason Merfolk is sick with Vial is because they use the mana they save very efficiently (counters, leveling, etc...). This deck was playing out like a worse version of Goblins (regarding Vial), in that it was simply saving mana, but had less to do with it than Goblins. Top and Port are both very good mana sinks, and having access to the Top 3 cards of your library allows you to sculpt a much more complete gameplan, and allows you to dig much deeper when you play fetches correctly.
I'm not sure if I'll be running this or Merfolk at the Invitational, but it's in the discussion.
I replaced one Vial with a Top. You're right that sometimes there isn't anything to do with the extra mana you save from Vial and I usually found myself boarding out some number of them. That being said, having extra mana post-board is awesome because it lets you play hate and threats.
17 creatures is on the low side for Vial and I would consider taking them out. Right now your list is leaning a lot more towards classic Deadguy Ale.
I prefer Revoker over Thoughtseize in this deck for a few reasons. He doesn't cost any life and he can carry equipment or just hit for 2. He can deal with any problem card at any point in the game, not just when it's in their hand. The fact that you don't have to worry if they draw/have multiples of the card you hit is really nice too. Plus, with the exception of Firespout, he stops all the cards that will absolutely wreck your face (Lavamancer, EE, Pernicious Deed, Top) as well as extremely important mana abilities.
Think I'm going to go with an extra e tutor in the board. misstep hurts when you're trying to find your hate in games 2/3. "counter the spell, not the tutor for it" is out the window with misstep. I'd like the extra redundancy.
So I've got a version of this built (with a slightly different Top/Vial split, and no Karakas since I don't like it as a one-of without a way to tutor it), and trying to figure out how to adjust to the post-NPH metagame, especially with folks doing silly things like running full playsets of Mental Misstep and Spell Snare, which kind of hurts against this deck.
One thing I'm leaning toward trying is a couple of Mirran Crusaders in the board. I was the table judge on the Joe Bernal/AJ Sacher feature match in Louisville this weekend, and the way that little guy smashed face against AJ's BUG build was just amazing. And although it is off-curve, it also gets around both Misstep and Spell Snare, which is always nice, and makes you much less reliant on Mom to protect your beater (plus he's a significant clock even when not carrying a sword).
Green Sun Bant is rough because of Qasali Pridemage and Jace, of course NO is bad if it happens too.
I haven't actually played against Zoo but I imagine pre-board it would be fairly tough. Of course post board you have Chalice at 1 and Meekstone if you drop it before Chalice. It's still probably the worst MU overall. Good thing not that many people play it much anymore.
If Painter switches to Show and Tell it's usually gonna be pretty bad because the only thing you can do is ORing Emrakul.
G1 most combo can get you if they have a fairly quick hand and you can't tell what they're playing before they go off. The fact that Revoker stops mana abilities gives you a fighting chance if you guess what they're playing quickly.
This deck is a lot like New Horizons in the sense that there are no free wins but you don't roll over to any either. Tight play and knowing what cards they are probably playing is key. Knowing what cards to use to bait counters is really handy too, but it only works if you can figure out what they have.
The SB is probably more important to this deck than most other decks I've played, and also what makes it really good against the majority of the field. I almost always side 5-7 cards.
Edit: OP updated with the list that I think is currently optimal.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
R1 got paired against Team America and got blown out by a double Wasteland hand G1. G2 he mulled once and I beat him fairly well with a T2 Relic of Progenitus. G3 he mulled to 5 and I was able to play around Stifle and drop a timely Revoker to stop from being EEd.
R2: Jank Aggro Elves. I beat him easily with a Sculler that had a SoFI on it with mom protection and a Revoker naming Ezuri. G2 I keep a hand with E Plague and SFM. T2 SFM for SoBaM. T3 Play plague bringing his elves back to 1/1s. EoT4 I E Tutor for another Plague and win with a sword.
R3: Merfolk. I don't remember a whole lot about G1. G2 I'm staring down 2 Cursecatchers and 2 Adepts. I have an E Plague and Ghostly Prison in hand. He only has 2 lands and I drop an E Plague as counter bait. It sticks! I win.
ID against Dreadstill and play some games anyway. He drops T2 Dreadnought a couple times and counters my Tutored ORing and Vindicate. I see Threads of Disloyalty out of the board and frown. In retrospect I should've just played it out and let the standing fall where they will.
3-0-1 after swiss.
I play against Dreadstill and keep a bad hand, it's midnight and I'm already mad about some other things. I keep Wasteland, Vial and 5 others. Vial gets forced and he has forever to win. G2 and Early Dreadnought gets StPed. I get Firespouted. He beats with Mishra's Factory. He starts fatesealing Jace and I decide I can race with my Avenger. At this point I have Chalice at 1 and another in my hand. I misplay and don't drop a land, I draw another land and would've played Chalice at 3... get Firespouted losing my threat. Jace continues to roll up and he lets me keep a Runed Halo just to hard cast FoW. I get Jaced with 3 land in my hand. I was at 2 he was at 3 I didn't see a single Revoker, which I would've been able to Vial in to stop Jace and ultimately win. Them's the breaks.
IMO, they would be worth while silver bullets
Sales
Legacy
Punishing Depths :symg::symu::symr:
Faithless Dredge :symb::symu::symr::symw::symg:
We've discussed them. I really like Yixlid Jailer in the green version where you can actually tutor for it, but in our BW stock build we have no way to go find it. Kataki, War's Wage is not very good for us though. We run only a small amount of mana sources, and we play a great deal of artifacts ourselves. Phyrexian Revoker, Tidehollow Sculler, Aether Vial, Swords, Umezawa's Jitte, and just about anything out of the board. I don't think Kataki fits here.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Sales
Legacy
Punishing Depths :symg::symu::symr:
Faithless Dredge :symb::symu::symr::symw::symg:
That's amazing bro! Congratufrickinlations!!!! Just read (and bookmarked) the article. Talk about a bad matchup... Unfortunately the decklist shows "BW Aggro" instead of what it should say, but meh. I will certainly call you on my way home from work today to talk about it all.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Here's the list:
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Flooded Strand
4 Plains
2 Swamp
Artifacts 7
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Body and Mind
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Enlightened Tutor
Creatures 22
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Dark Confidant
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Plague
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Meekstone
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Null Rod
1 Runed Halo
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
Round 1: Philip Braverman playing Junk. He ended up 12th
G1: He opens with Diamond, land and I expect to hymned but he drops Bob. I crack a fetch for a Plains during my turn and he says "Don't swords him bro!" Play STP. He StPs my T2 Confidant. I end up playing Avenger and I beat him without any trouble.
SB: In comes Meekstone, E Tutor, and the yard hate.
G2: I play T1 Vial he Hymns me for 2 land. I end up with a relic removing a card a turn to keep his critters small. He plays Top and gets good ☺☺☺☺. I get him to 6 and he beats my face from 20-16-10-dead. He ends up playing 2 StpS and I think 3 Vindicates. it sucked.
G3: I play Vial into Mom, he breaks Deed at 1 leaving his Bob on board. I don't remember how I got him to 6. In the end I have Meekstone and Relic against his 2 Bob and 2 Goyf. I know he has a KotR in hand. He swings all out when I'm at 14 and I'm forced to break Relic to Survive. Somehow he ends up hitting me for 10 next turn, or maybe I scooped, I don't remember.
0-1 Matches, 1-2 Games. ☺☺☺☺ty way to start the day.
Round 2: Doug with Fishies
G1: I cant get a Revoker to stick on Vial He gets 2 Adepts and an LoA. I get him to 15 before his army of lords and adepts smashes me.
SB: In comes 2 Ghostly Prison, 1 Meekstone, 1 E Tutor and miser's Plague (probably not the best call and I take it out for G3)
G2: I Sculler and see Kira, Coralhelm Commander, and Merfolk Sovereign. I take Kira. He plays Coralhelm and I drop a Revoker naming it before he can level it. plays a Cursecatcher and a Merfolk Soverign and hits me with the 2 already in play bringing me to 12. I drop a Meekstone and he waits a turn or two to attack with his other 2 guys. I get another Sculler and see Island He swings bringin me to 6 and I start swinging back. I block his next threat with my blank Sculler and swing in for the win.
1-1 Matches, 3-2 Games
Round 3: Ryan with Dredge
G1: I see LED while he's shuffling and put him on Tendrils. He wins the die roll and plays Cephalid Coliseum and LED. DREDGE! I've never played against it before but I am familiar with how it operates. I Wasteland his Coliseum and he dumps his hand to LED. He dredges 5 and hits a Narcomeoba and Ichorid. He swings with Ichorid and Narc and I StP the Ichorid. WOOT! I drop Bob and Mom and start swinging back. I drop a Jitte when I'm at 10 hit him, kill my Bob to remove his Bridge kill 1 of his 2 Narcs to keep him away from the Dread Returns and Angel of Despair in his yard. Mom picks up the Jitte and beats face for the win! Gotta love Mom beats. Between games he complains that my Revokers are Jap and gets an oracle text from a judge.
SB: 1 E Tutor, 2 Ghostly Prison, 1 Relic, 1 Crypt
G2: We both mulligan. I keep Revoker, Mom, Jitte, he mulls to 4. I play Mom and on his second turn he plays Putrid Imp. i play my Revoker turn 2 and pause, he says, "Sure." I name Putrid Imp and he tries to respond by pitching a card. I tell him he can't do it once the cards been named and we argue for a minute until I call a judge. The judge tells him that I'm right and then he tried to change his story and act like I didn't give him time to react. The judge sees through it and Ryan proceeds to be a sulking ***** while I demolish him with bears and Jitte.
2-1 Matches, 5-2 Games.
Round 4: Mike Ward with Fish
G1: I know he's playing Fish going into it. I win the roll and drop a Vial. He plays Island, Cursecatcher. I get play a Revoker naming Coralhelm Commander since he didn't drop a Vial T1 and Commander is easily my biggest problem other than Vial. He topdecks Vial with still one land *sigh* At the end of his next draw step I vial in Sculler and see: Cursecatcher, Daze, Adept, Reejery and Commander. I take the Reejery. He topdecks like a champ into some fast beats.
SB: In comes 1 E Tutor, 2 Ghostly Prison, 1 Meekstone.
G2: I land a SFM and get SoFI and Stoneforge it in while StP a Lord I think. I equip connect once and he scoops.
G3: He starts with some Mutavault beats and drops more dudes. I have a Revoker naming Vial that I don't want to get rid of because he has 2 out and a grip full of cards. I get a SFM for Jitte as my life keeps dwindling. I'm forced to make some trades and Mystic in the Jitte as she dies. I draw an Avenger and equip her to stabalize at 1. He has 3 Vials, on 4, 3, and 2, and I saw a Sower last game. I assume he has Sower in hand since he moved it up to four but he only has 3 lands. Avenger puts counters on Jitte and draws a 4th land but can't take anything because I'd remove the counters to get it back. Avenger gets there.
3-1 Matches, 7-3 Games
Round 5: Nate Pease (who won the Standard Open) with Affinity
G1: I mull to 5. He wins the roll and drops most of his hand on table. T2 he plays a master of Etherium and hits me for 2! He equips Cranial Plating to a Signal Pest and I StP it but still go to 6 from his attack and promtply die next turn.
SB: In comes 1 E Tutor, 1 Null Rod, 2 Ghostly Prison, 2 Chalice of the Void.
I keep a hand with Chalice, E Tutor, and 2 lands. T1 fetch, Chalice at 0 pass the turn. He plays a land and a Springleaf Drum. EoT I fetch and tutor for Null Rod. Play Null Rod and pass. He's obviosly got nothing. I play a Sculler and he scopps in response.
G3: He plays a Pest and a land. I waste the land. Plays Cranial Plating. Next turn he tries to equip to Pest and I StP in response. I land a Bob and waste another land. I Revoker his Opal and then Tutor for Null Rod and he scoops, moping away with his shiny trophy.
4-1 Matches, 9-4 Games
Round 6: Mike Turpyn playing High Tide.
G1: I knew what he was playing because I'd seem him 2 rounds earlier going off. I keep 2 Sculler and a Mom in my opener. I misplay by not dropping Mom T1 and he manipulates his draws. I play Sculler and he Brainstorms in response. I see Meditate, Force, Brainstorm, merchant Scroll, High Tide, Candelabra. I don't have a Revoker so I take the Candelabra. I know I probably should've taken the HT but I wasn't sure because of the Brainstorm. I draw and play another Sculler T3 and he Forces pitching a Brainstorm. I play the 3rd Sculler and see 2 more Candelabras and a Brainstorm. I tae the Merchant Scroll because I figure it could do the most damage, again probably not the best choice. I get him to 14 and he goes off.
SB: 1 E Tutor, 2 Chalice of the Void, 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 1 Runed Halo, 1 Relic, 1 Crypt
G2: I play T1 Vial and Crypt pass the turn. He does some stuff and gets beat on by some bears. I name Blue Sun Zenith with Runed Halo making him play a billion spells instead of just the a billion mana. He plays HT, taps a bunch and starts going off. In response to him playing Candelabra, I Vial in Revoker naming Candelabra and smile, earning a "Touche" and a pass of the turn. I continue to beat face eventually I stall long enough to win.
G3: I had sided out 1 Vial and decide it really needs to go back in. I manage to land a Vial and he tried to go off again earning a Vialed Revoker again in response to casting Candelabra. I tutor for a Chalice and attempt it at 1 but he Forces. I tutor at the end of his next turn for a Canonist, which I probably should've done the turn before but I didn't see it and figured Chalice at 1 was really good, and Vial it in at his next EoT. He plays Cunning Wish and I figure he's going to get Rebuild and my game is over. He gets Repeal! He tells me afterwards he doesn't have Rebuild and he brought in Hurkyll's Recall so he could Merchant Scroll for it. Swing away and vial in Bob. Bob reveals Revoker and I draw another. I swing with the crew putting him at 6 and hard cast a Revoker, which he lets resolve, leaving me with a Canonist, Bob, 2 Revokers, and a Vial on 2. On his turn he Repeals Canonist and Wipe Aways my Vial but isn't able to end the game and thanks to my hard cast Revoker I get in for 6.
5-1 Matches, 11-5 Games
Round 7: Mitch Calhoun with NO Elves
G1: He wins the roll and plays Forest. I obviously put him on Elves but I was thinking combo. I drop a Vial. He plays Dryad Abor which I waste. T3 I get a Sculler and see: 2 NO, Champion, Perfect, Ezuri, and Forest. I take the Perfect with a StP in hand. he gets some beats in eventually getting me to 11 but I'm able to control the field with a Sculler equipped with SoFI thanks to SFM.
SB: 1 E Tutor, 2 Ghostly Prison, 1 Runed Halo, 2 E Plague.
G2: it's not of a game as I kept 2 Mom and an Avenger. I'm able to keep him at bay and control his field until I drop a Ghostly Prison making his Perfect pretty tame. I Vindicate a forest, leaving him with 2, to keep him off NO since I can't contain all his creatures anymore. I just slow roll him with Avenger leaving the Moms back in case he can get rid of my Prison.
6-1 Matches, 13-5 Games
Round 8: Chris Boozer, Aggro Bant
G1: I thought I saw him playing Meandeck MUD earlier and knew I was wrong when he dropped a Trop. He Forced my Vial and StPd my Mom. I StPd a Rhox War Monk and I think a Goyf. i landed a SFM and equipped it with SoFI killing his Heirarch. He scoops.
SB: E Tutor, Meekstone, Runed Halo because I don't know if he's playing NO or not.
G2: I get a Bob and StP a Goyf with nothing in the yard and a Heirarch. I find a SoBaM start making bodies at which point he scoops.
7-1 Matches, 15-5 Games
Round 9: ID to make T8. I make it at number 6.
T8: AJ Sacher with UR Control.
I knew going into this event that the three cards i never want to see are EE, Pernicious Deed, and Grim Lavamancer. You can read all about how AJ curb-stomped me with multiples of 2/3 of those cards in the coverage on SCG. I'd link it but I can't access SCG at work. I just didn't have enough Revokers. I had honestly considered putting a single Pithing Needle in the board soley for Academy Ruins prior to the event. Just some insight into some of the plays. I didn't StP his first Lavamancer at his EoT because I was pretty sure he had Daze, which he did. I took the card I did with Sculler because I was trying to bait him into using his resources on my Sculler so I could safely drop a Revoker on SDT. It obviously didn't work and when I forgot that Fire//Ice can divide it's damage I knew I was ☺☺☺☺ed. G2 I had 2 Bobs and the Avenger in my opening hand. It sucks when your turn 2-4 plays are all countered. AJ was actually pretty cool throught the whole thing, maybe it was because he knew it was a great MU for him. I honestly expected him to be a total douche and I was pleasantly surprised that it wasn't the case.
MVP: Phyrexian Revoker. He just wins games. I sided 1 copy out once yesterday. He's that good.
Despite SCG listing it as BW Aggro, there's very little aggro in this deck. You almost always play the control part. It's not the easiest to pilot but it doesn't auto-scoop to anything, except apparently decks playing 3 Spell Snare, 3 reccurring EE, and 4 Lavamancers, but it doesn't have any free wins either.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Is there any room for 3x perish in the 75? I think it's one of the strongest answers black has to elves, goyf, kotr, noble, etc.
Edit:
Also have you faced an opposing energy flux? I know I play it in my sb when I play fish.
Also, what about a single ancient den or vault of whispers in case you get wasted and then mana screwed, but still have e-tutor in hand?
I did!
Never had an Energry Glux come down on me but it would definitely suck.
Perish was a 3 of in the board for a while, completely different board at the time, a wide variety of answers and E Tutor is really good. I'm sure you probably could fit it in the board, but I like the diversity of the current board... plus I only have 1 Perish lol.
E Plague and Ghostly Prison are both really good against elves, depending on the build one is obv better than the other. There's 8 spot removal and Revoker can turn off Night and Noble. Not the best but it certainly helps.
I usually fetch basics first unless I have to grab a Scrub to avoid Wasteland. Plus if I'm really hurting and need some mana I would probably grab a Vial with tutor before another land honestly. It's an interesting thought though.
Currently playing:
Merfolk
EDH
Currently playing:
:symb::symu::symw: Sharuum, the Hegemon
MY SALES THREAD!
Tim, I was wondering if you could tell us what you usually sided OUT in the matchups. Probably my weakest area is knowing what's best to take out vs. what to put in.
I've had a ton of success with my list (all serious testing, can't make it to events), and would love to jump into this conversation.
The sword helps push through damage against green (and fish, too) while giving a blocker that (if enough mana) you can re-equip. I'm still not sold on it vs. feast and famine, because you're pumping their goyfs and kotrs, but I really do think this deck needs a pro-green sword, because legacy's main ground creatures are green (and blue.)
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Man, I was trying to avoid this lol. I didn't write it down and it was pretty hard to come up with sometimes. I need to update the primer anyway so I might as well but I don't have the time right this minute. I'll do my best to get back to it quickly though.
Bottom line is Tarmogoyf is really really bad and Knight of the Reliquary isn't really any better, although post board we can have SoLaS if need be. This is easily the most debated slot in the list and many people say SoFaF is better.
We need something that allows us to block Goyf and other green fatties and it's nice to be able to push the damage through against them as well. With FaF you get one or the other unless you have another critter in your hand. FaF also leaves you prone to overextending into a sweeper, EE or Deed, since you want to use that extra mana. I would much rather push 4-5 damage through AND have a free blocker that I don't care about, which is almost never any of the creatures in this deck, for the thing that I don't want to hit me. If there is one Goyf/Knight on the table, it doesn't matter what I've milled into their yard because it still won't hit me, unless of course they remove the wolf first.
Some people say that you mill them closer to an answer. I disagree. The chance of me milling that answer is much greater, 10-1, than my opponent drawing that card. I'm willing to live with that.
There isn't a whole lot of discard in the deck to be synergistic with FaF. It doesn't let you look at their hand, it's not random, and it requires extra resources to use the second ability.
If you're against combo, SoFI and Jitte are better, then wolf adds some extra pressure and hopefully you'll put some wincons in their yard.
Lands (21):
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Rishadan Port
Creatures (17):
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
3 Serra Avenger
4 Tidehollow Sculler
Spells (22):
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
I've been running Light and Shadow because having protection from their Swords to Plowshares has been really important, but I can see it easily changing to another sword.
I like the Revokers but not sure where they come from in my build. I love having 6 Thoughtseize effects because I spend Turns 1-3 stripping their hand and laying the seeds of my long game (vial, Bobs, Tops, Stoneforges), and in the mid game I feel like I have much better topdecks than most decks. In addition, combo matches are actually winnable Game 1 between the 5 mana-denial lands and the 10 cards that strip cards from their hand.
Tops are INSANE in this deck. They help you play nice with Bob, and you can effectively give a creature haste and protect it on the top of your library when you have Tops and Vials.
The last equipment slot has rotated more than anything else in my list, and I might give Body and Mind a try.
I like the deck, and definitely won't argue against top at all, because when you play it you at least *feel* like you have a clear edge. Whether or not you actually do (since it could have been a threat to begin with), I dunno.
However, how can you say you have better topdecks than most decks when 6 of your spells (discard) do (little to) nothing in topdeck mode? and 4 of those make you lose 2 life even if they do something?
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Because in the mid game, Turns 4-6 (ish), I'm usually going to still hit something with those discard spells. I also have Vials, which can be pretty dead.
But what I mean is that against a deck like Merfolk or Goblins, decks that rely on synergy, I think I'm hitting higher-impact cards (Ringleader not withstanding). They draw something like a Lord of Atlantis or Daze, and I draw a Mystic to fetch an equipment or any random dude to put equipment on I already have around.
Trust me when I say Top is incredible in this deck. Even in the game where you're just setting up Confidant draws, it's huge. It's interactions with Vial are also very nice.
I don't buy that "just putting in a threat" is better, because sometimes you want a Serra Avenger and other times you really need a Vindicate. These are vastly different lines of play, and having Top gives you that opportunity.
The original reason I put Top and Port into the deck is because I was saving mana with Vial but having very little to do with it. The reason Merfolk is sick with Vial is because they use the mana they save very efficiently (counters, leveling, etc...). This deck was playing out like a worse version of Goblins (regarding Vial), in that it was simply saving mana, but had less to do with it than Goblins. Top and Port are both very good mana sinks, and having access to the Top 3 cards of your library allows you to sculpt a much more complete gameplan, and allows you to dig much deeper when you play fetches correctly.
I'm not sure if I'll be running this or Merfolk at the Invitational, but it's in the discussion.
17 creatures is on the low side for Vial and I would consider taking them out. Right now your list is leaning a lot more towards classic Deadguy Ale.
I prefer Revoker over Thoughtseize in this deck for a few reasons. He doesn't cost any life and he can carry equipment or just hit for 2. He can deal with any problem card at any point in the game, not just when it's in their hand. The fact that you don't have to worry if they draw/have multiples of the card you hit is really nice too. Plus, with the exception of Firespout, he stops all the cards that will absolutely wreck your face (Lavamancer, EE, Pernicious Deed, Top) as well as extremely important mana abilities.
playing tonight, will let you know how it goes.
One thing I'm leaning toward trying is a couple of Mirran Crusaders in the board. I was the table judge on the Joe Bernal/AJ Sacher feature match in Louisville this weekend, and the way that little guy smashed face against AJ's BUG build was just amazing. And although it is off-curve, it also gets around both Misstep and Spell Snare, which is always nice, and makes you much less reliant on Mom to protect your beater (plus he's a significant clock even when not carrying a sword).
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Lightning Bolts don't kill creatures. State-based actions kill creatures.