I agree I could drop the land count...maybe to 17-18? I like the Diamonds because they pitch another card for Threshold and enable turn 1 Dark Confidant. I agree that I need more control though. Engineered Explosives is going in my sideboard, but for maindeck I was thinking of some tech-y cards like Withdrawand Rushing River. Too rogue? Also, what are your thoughts on Hymn to Tourach?
Hymn to tourach turns the deck into team america pretty much. Diamond is really bad I can't stress how bad it is. If you open on 2 in your opener you're screwed hard. Open on 3 it's an auto mull. Opening on 4 is an auto mull. Even one can sometimes be a mull. I would run more lands over mox diamond but I'm fine with my 18 land manabase. Reaching threshold is easy.
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Hymn to tourach turns the deck into team america pretty much. Diamond is really bad I can't stress how bad it is. If you open on 2 in your opener you're screwed hard. Open on 3 it's an auto mull. Opening on 4 is an auto mull. Even one can sometimes be a mull. I would run more lands over mox diamond but I'm fine with my 18 land manabase. Reaching threshold is easy.
Fair enough, I just got interested in the deck so I am unfamiliar with how it plays. So what is a typical 1st turn play for the deck vs. an unknown? Hold mana open for Stifle/Spell Piece/Spell Snare/Brainstorm or lay down Mongoose? Again, sorry if these questions sound stupid, I have yet to playtest the deck.
P.S. I'm assuming other than the 4 Forces you should NOT be adding anything greater than 2 CC, correct? I was thinking Misdirection may be a cute card to try out.
Did a little testing over the weekend, my deck did very well vs. Fish, Aggro Loam, and UW Control. Had some problems with Dredge and NO Bant and it encouraged me to run some more removal. Here's my current decklist:
Warren weirding is bad because goblins is a real deck. And you don't choose what creature to kill; same problem I had with diabolic edict when I played it notice the when. It has been since cut for another ghastly demise. The only deck that can use warren weirding is goblins itself because it has goblin in the type line so it can be tutored for with matron or revealed off ringleader but back on topic. You don't need to play warren weirding to make tarmogoyf better though seriously goyf is already fine as it is you don't need to add a tribal card to make it better. It also pumps the opponents goyf as well.
Misdirection is a SB card against aggro generally. I love to make the play of misdirect your path back to your tarmogoyf/kotr/anything or make your bolt hit your own nacatl. It's awful against combo other than high tide where they have countermagic of their own and against control it's good for counterwars.
With your decklist Friendo I would cut the rushing river's for more creature removal like smother/GFTT/ghastly demise. I'm not that big a fan of rushing river when you have real creature removal that kills everything; bouncing a jace is pointless since you're generally losing if they resolved a jace in the first place since it requires 4 mana to cast.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Spell Pierce vs. Spell Snare. Which one of these have you found to be most useful in the current meta-game? I found myself boarding in Spell Pierce all day, during my last tournament. Especially with the build now having 6 spot-removals + 2 Explosives to deal with creatures.
Just a question, but why run GFFT over Smother? Smother kills practically every heavily-played legacy creature, as well as some that GFFT can't touch (Painter's Servant, Metalworker, Revoker, Dreadnought, Mishra's Factory).
I know there are creatures played in competitive decks that GFFT can destroy that Smother can't, but I can't see any reason to run GFFT unless your meta is full of reanimator and gate.
IMO its nice to have a good mix of spot removals. At least sideboard options, unless you are confident on your meta-game information and that you will manage to handle creatures your spot-removal can't handle for you.
I'm gonna be testing this set-up in the nearest future. Not quite sure on how the sideboard is constructed yet, but I'll have to test it out and see. My meta-game is quite varied and it shifts very often. From Tribal, Lands, Emrakul, Enchantress, Affinity, Stompy, Caw-Blade, Zoo, Dredge and Bant. I believe (hope) that this current list can match any of these decks listed, with of course some match-ups worse than others. Lands is quite difficult to beat when they start recurring lands from the yard. The same goes for Enchantress when they get shroud and protection from damage. If anyone got some good strategies to beat said decks, throw them out there for discussion!
I usually run Stifle in my tempo decks but in this version I opted for Noble Hierarch which is why I also left out the Wastelands as well.
Basically I wanted to try and further my gameplan rather than slowing my opponents as it seems decks are now more apt to recover from stifle/waste package. First turn NH or GSZ + dryad arbor is an excellent tempo boost. Bob + BB together provide almost overwhelming card advantage and fit well with the tempo that NH/GSZ bring.
Still, I havent done real extensive testing and I would like feedback from you, i.e. your opinions and experiences with DT.
I have also been considering tombstalker and/or terravore as a 1-of, thoughts? Thanks in advance.
this was a fun tempo deck i through together when i saw prereleased snapcaster ... it is tons of fun to play and always avtive on the board... give it a whirl and see if you like! i would have LILIANA 2.0 but i wantede the entire deck to be under 3cc... V clique is worth it and the rest of the deck is fodder for snapcaster
I have been working on this for a little bit now. I managed to just squeeze out the win against RUG tempo by resolving countertop in games 2 and 3 while drawing quite a bit of cards with Dark confidant and also sensei's top. I also managed to squeeze out a win against Esper stoneblade in also games 2 and 3 as well. So the draw engine is quite strong and of course both dark confidant and sensei's top is just excellent against any deck with wasteland and other tempo cards.
@ Kevinliu: The deck looks good. Only thing I'd like to comment is that it looks a tad too heavy on the creature count. You might want to reconsider removing at least one of the 5 different creatures you're running.
I haven't really had a problem with Countertop postboard. I always seem to be able to flip a delver anytime I want really. I personally love countertop against the red counterpart of thresh and as well as countertop is just great against UW stoneblade as well.
As for the maverick matchup, I haven't really tested the match yet. Although, if one was expecting to play against maverick frequently, I'd consider these changes to the board: -1 submerge, -2 Thoughtseize, +3 Deed. With the addition of Pernicious Deed, I like my changes against maverick a lot better. The trick with deed is to cast and activate deed when your behind on the board state against Maverick. I wouldn't activate deed if you have a favorable board position though because there is a good chance that you can just come out pretty aggressive against maverick and just steal a game or two that way.
Oh are you planning on going to SCG Legacy open Dallas or the Legacy GP this weekend oxmo? I really wish I could go to either one but I live pretty far from both tournaments.
Yes definitely, Massacre can be really good against maverick but the only reason why I don't consider it here is because it doesn't always kill Knight of the Reliquary which seems to be the best card in Maverick. Sure they have wastelands which can be devastating against us but we have stifles and also surgical extraction postboard. If it comes to it I'll do anything I can to kill Knight by including Deed. Not to mention, Sensei's top happens to be pretty awesome against opposing wastelands. Whenever, I play against a deck with or even without wastelands, I am never in a hurry to crack my fetchlands and I have multiple ways of drawing into more lands thanks to Sensei's top, brainstorm, ponder, and Dark confidant. So by that time I'll have all of the lands I need to cast deed and also activate it if I need to. In other words, I value my sensei's tops quite high when I want to draw into more lands for attrition wars.
Also, gilded drake maybe something you could consider too. I know I have taken huge creatures with gilded drake before and haven't really been that disappointed with the result.
I am glad to see I am one of those people to influence you to play Dark Thresh. In my opinion, I feel it's better then the red variant although the red variant is obviously still significantly really good because red is just that good in the format. But I personally like to play Dark confidant a lot and so I decided to put it in a Tempo shell with countertop in the sideboard. Dark confidant has potential to win games where you don't have any business of winning since it's a draw engine and as well as a threat.
I also like those changes that you are making to the deck. As I am not really a fan of Snapcaster myself in these tempo aggro-control decks.
As for the Plainswalker problem, yeah Maelstrom Pulse seems pretty good and spell pierce seems like a good addition in the board too since it also answers plainswalkers and other relevant cards in Legacy.
Lastly, as for the Maverick matchup being pretty bad, yeah I agree but I think the matchup can be potentially fairly winnable and it only gets better after sideboarding depending on what you sideboard. I actually thought of including an singleton Darkblast in the board to 1 for 1 an Mother of Runes or a Noble Hierarch.
Edit:
After seeing the GP Indy results and Oxmo's suggestions here is a BUG Thresh list I would consider playing tomorrow in a large scale tournament and if I was interested in playing this tempo variant.
The flex slot in the sideboard could very well be 2 Maelstrom Pulse and 1 Krosan Grip or just 3 Maelstrom Pulse.
With a Esper Stoneblade deck winning the GP by Tom Martel which included a playset of Lingering souls Massacre has gotten even more useful aside from the Maverick matchup.
Your list seems pretty good. Although, I still like countertop in this deck I think countertop is needed with a huge resurgence in high tide last weekend. High Tide has come to prey on all of these Maverick decks while it also has other good matchups across the board. So, IMO, I would be wary of playing an blue aggro-tempo deck without countertop because of High Tide being played with great success at GP Indy last weekend.
I agree, High Tide could be a good matchup for us if we run discard in the main but with just straight countermagic I feel it's not as nearly as great but sure it's still winnable. Although, at least the Red version of this deck had reach with bolts and chain lightning to deal lethal before the High Tide player could go off while for us I think we should either play discard in the main and/or sideboard in countertop. High tide has gotten a ton more resilient against generic countermagic and a fast clock compared to the old glory days of Solidarity, hence why it topped 4 in a very difficult field at GP Indy.
Also, Countertop isn't just useful in the high tide matchup by the way, it's also great against Rug Threshold and it can also be relevant against UW stoneblade too. But since countertop doesn't really suit your style I am not going to force you to play it.
I would debate otherwise, Submerge is still very good against the green creature decks. I just happen to want to try out something different in those slots in the sideboard for once but if it came down to it I would still play at least 3 submerges if not a playset in the board since they are free to cast which makes them insane in my opinion.
Also, if your opponent actively plays around submerge then it has done it's job and still impacts the game.
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Legacy
GWREnchantressGWR
WXWStaxWXW
GXWMaverickGXW
Currently Playing:
Retired
Fair enough, I just got interested in the deck so I am unfamiliar with how it plays. So what is a typical 1st turn play for the deck vs. an unknown? Hold mana open for Stifle/Spell Piece/Spell Snare/Brainstorm or lay down Mongoose? Again, sorry if these questions sound stupid, I have yet to playtest the deck.
P.S. I'm assuming other than the 4 Forces you should NOT be adding anything greater than 2 CC, correct? I was thinking Misdirection may be a cute card to try out.
Legacy
GWREnchantressGWR
WXWStaxWXW
GXWMaverickGXW
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Stifle
2 Rushing River
2 Warren Weirding
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Island
Warren Weirding is there to be a Tarmogoyf-enhancing Cruel Edict. Will obviously hurt more than help vs. Goblins but I'll just sideboard them out for Engineered Plague
Legacy
GWREnchantressGWR
WXWStaxWXW
GXWMaverickGXW
Misdirection is a SB card against aggro generally. I love to make the play of misdirect your path back to your tarmogoyf/kotr/anything or make your bolt hit your own nacatl. It's awful against combo other than high tide where they have countermagic of their own and against control it's good for counterwars.
With your decklist Friendo I would cut the rushing river's for more creature removal like smother/GFTT/ghastly demise. I'm not that big a fan of rushing river when you have real creature removal that kills everything; bouncing a jace is pointless since you're generally losing if they resolved a jace in the first place since it requires 4 mana to cast.
Currently Playing:
Retired
One question for the community:
Spell Pierce vs. Spell Snare. Which one of these have you found to be most useful in the current meta-game? I found myself boarding in Spell Pierce all day, during my last tournament. Especially with the build now having 6 spot-removals + 2 Explosives to deal with creatures.
I know there are creatures played in competitive decks that GFFT can destroy that Smother can't, but I can't see any reason to run GFFT unless your meta is full of reanimator and gate.
Legacy
GWREnchantressGWR
WXWStaxWXW
GXWMaverickGXW
It should fit in here like a glove, but what do we replace it with is the question?
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
Creature: 10
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Ponder
Instant: 26
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Daze
2 Go for the Throat
2 Smother
3 Extirpate
2 Engineered Plague
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Tormod's Crypt
I'm gonna be testing this set-up in the nearest future. Not quite sure on how the sideboard is constructed yet, but I'll have to test it out and see. My meta-game is quite varied and it shifts very often. From Tribal, Lands, Emrakul, Enchantress, Affinity, Stompy, Caw-Blade, Zoo, Dredge and Bant. I believe (hope) that this current list can match any of these decks listed, with of course some match-ups worse than others. Lands is quite difficult to beat when they start recurring lands from the yard. The same goes for Enchantress when they get shroud and protection from damage. If anyone got some good strategies to beat said decks, throw them out there for discussion!
D3@D
I usually run Stifle in my tempo decks but in this version I opted for Noble Hierarch which is why I also left out the Wastelands as well.
Basically I wanted to try and further my gameplan rather than slowing my opponents as it seems decks are now more apt to recover from stifle/waste package. First turn NH or GSZ + dryad arbor is an excellent tempo boost. Bob + BB together provide almost overwhelming card advantage and fit well with the tempo that NH/GSZ bring.
Still, I havent done real extensive testing and I would like feedback from you, i.e. your opinions and experiences with DT.
I have also been considering tombstalker and/or terravore as a 1-of, thoughts? Thanks in advance.
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Spellstutter Sprite
1x Voidmage Prodigy
2x Vendillion Clique
Enchantment [7]
4x Bitterblossom
3x Standstill
4x Force of Will
4x spell snare
4x Daze
4x Stifle
1x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x wasteland
2x Riptide Laboratory
4x Tundra
4x Poluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Underground Sea
YUMA, AZ
So anyway here is the Dark Delver Thresh list.
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Daze
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Spell Snare
1 Ghastly Demise
4 Force of Will
2 Smother
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thoughtseize
3 Counterbalance
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
3 Submerge
Edit: Try it out you might like it.
The sideboard looks to cover most relevant MU's.
As for the maverick matchup, I haven't really tested the match yet. Although, if one was expecting to play against maverick frequently, I'd consider these changes to the board: -1 submerge, -2 Thoughtseize, +3 Deed. With the addition of Pernicious Deed, I like my changes against maverick a lot better. The trick with deed is to cast and activate deed when your behind on the board state against Maverick. I wouldn't activate deed if you have a favorable board position though because there is a good chance that you can just come out pretty aggressive against maverick and just steal a game or two that way.
Oh are you planning on going to SCG Legacy open Dallas or the Legacy GP this weekend oxmo? I really wish I could go to either one but I live pretty far from both tournaments.
Also, gilded drake maybe something you could consider too. I know I have taken huge creatures with gilded drake before and haven't really been that disappointed with the result.
I am glad to see I am one of those people to influence you to play Dark Thresh. In my opinion, I feel it's better then the red variant although the red variant is obviously still significantly really good because red is just that good in the format. But I personally like to play Dark confidant a lot and so I decided to put it in a Tempo shell with countertop in the sideboard. Dark confidant has potential to win games where you don't have any business of winning since it's a draw engine and as well as a threat.
I also like those changes that you are making to the deck. As I am not really a fan of Snapcaster myself in these tempo aggro-control decks.
As for the Plainswalker problem, yeah Maelstrom Pulse seems pretty good and spell pierce seems like a good addition in the board too since it also answers plainswalkers and other relevant cards in Legacy.
Lastly, as for the Maverick matchup being pretty bad, yeah I agree but I think the matchup can be potentially fairly winnable and it only gets better after sideboarding depending on what you sideboard. I actually thought of including an singleton Darkblast in the board to 1 for 1 an Mother of Runes or a Noble Hierarch.
Edit:
After seeing the GP Indy results and Oxmo's suggestions here is a BUG Thresh list I would consider playing tomorrow in a large scale tournament and if I was interested in playing this tempo variant.
4 Underground Sea
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
Creatures
3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Smother
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Ghastly Demise
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
2 Mind Harness
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Counterbalance
1 Krosan Grip
2 Massacre
3 Surgical Extraction
The flex slot in the sideboard could very well be 2 Maelstrom Pulse and 1 Krosan Grip or just 3 Maelstrom Pulse.
With a Esper Stoneblade deck winning the GP by Tom Martel which included a playset of Lingering souls Massacre has gotten even more useful aside from the Maverick matchup.
Also, Countertop isn't just useful in the high tide matchup by the way, it's also great against Rug Threshold and it can also be relevant against UW stoneblade too. But since countertop doesn't really suit your style I am not going to force you to play it.
Also, if your opponent actively plays around submerge then it has done it's job and still impacts the game.