Dark confidant has synergy with death's shadow; and against burn decks death's shadow is a champion lol. And against some aggro he can be really good for stabilizing. The problem is a smart opponent will likely swords say a goyf after he hits the board, shrinking him and possibly killing him.
Lorescale Coatl will likely be force fodder most of the time. It's sick with brainstorm sure but even quirion dryad is better most of the time; quirion dryad and a bob in play pumps the dryad like crazy most of the time. Quirion dryad > Lorescale coatl in conclusion though. Only reason coatl could be better is because it can be pitched to FoW in a pinch while quirion dryad cannot.
Ummmm ponder is a staple of tempo decks like these typically. Having 8 cantrips improves consistency immensely. Most people run either preordain or ponder though, it's personal preference really. It also pumps goyf since its usually the only sorcery in a deck like this.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Some choises may seem weird, i.e. disfigure, but they are well-tested by the team and so far I really like the strength of the deck.
During testing I keep on repeatedly beating goblins, merfolk, combo and many others. Zoo seems dificult but it's really doable.
Why I prefer mongoose? It's still awesome, the whole 3/3 shroud thing makes it a thread some decks simply cannot remove. lands has no clue how to answer this. tribal and zoo are simply staring at a creature knowing they'll make unnecessary trades.
The best card in this deck is by far the dark confidant. If he survives you already sealed the deal.
Haven't tried the black splash yet, but I have experience using a variant of the red one. I agree on mongoose still being useful as a 3 or 4 of (in my meta at least). A lot of people in my playgroup has Jace TMS, and that's where mongoose gets useful.
Your deck looks good. I'll try to make a similar list when I have enough cards to make a Dark Thresh deck.
Unless its an informed meta decision, I would look for other MAIN removal than Ghastly Demise (as a 4of.)
And I agree with the Mongoose still having its merits. I still use him, although I like to change my build and test different variations in the creature selection. In my meta-game Rock/Merfolk/Zoo (Spot-removal meta) He is still awesome. And playing with 6 Removals, and a bucket load of counter magic, not many creatures manage to stick on the opposite side of the table. I'm currently testing out EE again, although slower, it does give you massive card advantage when used wisely, Even more effective if you have a variety of casting cost creatures i.e. 1, 2 and 3 cc.
as for the nimble mongoose considerations, i think that mongoose is still a good creature to run in a deck like this. the basic 12 creatures (mongoose/confidant/goyf) don't need to change. we can just run an additional 1-2 additional creatures to act as finishers like dreadnought. 1-2 dreadnought + the basic 12 creature package should be more than enough.
I posted new top 8 lists yesterday. One of them used the standard 12 + 2x Cliques. Basically my build -2 Rushing River/Engineered Explosives +2 Cliques and a different choice of removal.
Only problem with thoughtseize replacing spell snare is it doesn't pitch to FoW...and besides, spell snare is great in this meta and is usually better than thoughtseize.
Also Warden not to nitpick but sweepers generally don't take out dreadnought unless they cost 4 or more mana. Firespout, perish, clasm...all pass the dreadnought by very easily. Wrath of god/DoJ however are different stories but both don't see much play nowadays since landstill isn't the most popular deck exactly.
I think if you want to play Thoughtseize like he said, Spell Snare is the card to cut. You should have 18-20 blue cards not counting the Spell Snares anyway (or at least I do, well I play Spell Pierce over Spell Snare but you get the idea...). Thoughtseize gives you incredibly strong combinations of plays on turn 1 too. For this deck, other than having Stifle, there's nothing you can do on turn 1 that's better than fetch Underground Sea (daze open or bluffed), Thoughtseize. IMO.
IOK has proven to be quite good for me in the sideboard. It'll stay there until the meta-shifts in my area or I find better sideboard options for a wider range of use.
Sorry for the double post, just want to bumb this up because of my question;
Now that SotF will be banned from Legacy in January, do you think the black splash is inferior to white or red splash? Does this mean a return of Can-Thresh?
I don't see how Survival being banned makes red or white better to splash than black here. I guess if you were counting sideboard Extirpates as one of the main benefits of B, but I wasn't :D. Bob vs Fire/Ice? Ghastly Demise/Smother vs Bolts? To me, Bob is one of the very best things that this deck has going for it and I wouldn't want to cut him to access Fire/Ice, Bolts or StPs.
True :D, I was just thinking of the UGR success back in the days. Somehow, (before) red splash provided more wins than the black splash at least so it seemed to me based on my limited information.
Back in the day bolt was better than StP. Those days are gone; bolt doesn't kill everything and fire // ice is okayish. Smother gets almost everything and ghastly demise is solid. Doom blade also kills a lot of cards as well.
Bob is so sick he's hard to pass up; CA is what tempo thresh decks need today. Fire can sometimes grant card advantage by hitting 2 X/1's but that is rare. I'm switching to the black version very soon with survival getting axed. It seems better for the reasons stated above.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Sounds like a reasonable plan, do we need back-up removals like Diabolic Edict or is it usually enough to focus on countering disrupting their enablers and/or self-discard outlets?
Would using preemptive stuff like Inquisition of Kozilek or Duress help in this MU to take out their Exhume/Reanimate ? or should we rather wait and counter them instead? Im thinking Spell Pierce vs 1cc discard to board in against them.
What do you guys think of this SB? I'm going to play on a small friendly tournament in a couple of days, and I just want to run through my options to keep everything smooth.
[CARD]4 Spell Pierce
3 Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle
2 Rushing River
2 Trygon Predator
1 Relic of Progenitus[/CARD]
I expect to meet combo (reanimate/sneak&tell/Dredge included), merfolk, rock and zoo. I feel I'm missing out on something, perhaps I could replace one of the three needles with something else. My MD is listed in the first post, which btw need input on MU analysis/strategy.
relic seems...subobtimal. It shrinks your goose and goyfs completly which neuters 2/3 of your threats.
Crypt is faster and doesnt affect your graveyard.
If you're concerned about swarm engineered explosives seems okay at least although its hard to use it as a catch all without taking some splash damage.
If I can get hold of one, I'd use Nihil Spellbomb instead. Unfortunately, I haven't bought a single SOM booster or card yet. I just wanted some variation to my graveyard tech. I was tempted to use Yxlid Jailer as a 2 of as well. And after some thought, Tormod's crypt would perhaps be a better option than Relic also.
Most stores have a common box you can dig through i'm sure you can find a .25c spellbomb in one of those.
I like jailer, especially since stuff like sotf -> shriekmaw/pridgemage can't get rid of him but tapping out turn two is probably too slow against most graveyard combo decks.
That's true! I hope to find some Spellbombs there before the tourney. But do you think 3 Needles is ok? Or should I cut it down to 2? or replace it entirely with something else considering the meta predictions above?
What do you guys think about Rushing River vs. other bounce/card options? It takes out larger creatures that gets through, takes out two blockers to make room or leathal counter attack, and also permanents like Planeswalkers (however, Needle could handle those as well).
EDIT: Did some small edit on the original post as well. LMK what you guys think!
I haven't really got any first hand experience regarding SB Dreadnoughts, but I would imagine them to be sided in against aggro decks as they have the potential to give you an "easy" win.
I was very interested in the nought-plan at first, but I been too happy with my current list and like many other things, dreadnought does include some risk/drawbacks to your build as well as its potential benefits. For one, its not too hard to disrupt the 12/12 beast, and it sets you quite a bit back in tempo if it does get disrupted by your opponent, which kind of goes against the decks philosophy.
What do you guys think about Rushing River vs. other bounce/card options? It takes out larger creatures that gets through, takes out two blockers to make room or leathal counter attack, and also permanents like Planeswalkers (however, Needle could handle those as well).
Speaking from the point of view of someone who used Rushing River in a red threshold variant (I don't own a Dark thresh deck).
Used to have one river and one Wipe Away maindeck, but later on I changed it to 2 rivers for a number of reasons - being able to bounce two things, only single blue requirement compared to Wipe Away, the river also helps reach threshold quicker if the kicker is paid.
They are indeed against aggro-decks, especially merfolk and goblins.
Both hardly have any way of disrupting that plan when it sticks. (merfolk won't board in bounce, and nowadays hardly use it.)
Goblins first thing is a stingscourcher which are mostly one-offs. That stuff can be countered, stifled and what-not. You shouldn't be to affraid of the answers they 'might' have, because most of the time, noone expects a dreadnought.
I'll keep this in mind if I need more reinfocement against Merfolks and Goblins. Right now I'm testing Disfigure.
But say you do include 2x Noughts in your SB. Do you need more Stifle-effects as well? or is it sufficient with 4x Stifle?
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Lorescale Coatl will likely be force fodder most of the time. It's sick with brainstorm sure but even quirion dryad is better most of the time; quirion dryad and a bob in play pumps the dryad like crazy most of the time. Quirion dryad > Lorescale coatl in conclusion though. Only reason coatl could be better is because it can be pitched to FoW in a pinch while quirion dryad cannot.
Ummmm ponder is a staple of tempo decks like these typically. Having 8 cantrips improves consistency immensely. Most people run either preordain or ponder though, it's personal preference really. It also pumps goyf since its usually the only sorcery in a deck like this.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Haven't tried the black splash yet, but I have experience using a variant of the red one. I agree on mongoose still being useful as a 3 or 4 of (in my meta at least). A lot of people in my playgroup has Jace TMS, and that's where mongoose gets useful.
Your deck looks good. I'll try to make a similar list when I have enough cards to make a Dark Thresh deck.
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And I agree with the Mongoose still having its merits. I still use him, although I like to change my build and test different variations in the creature selection. In my meta-game Rock/Merfolk/Zoo (Spot-removal meta) He is still awesome. And playing with 6 Removals, and a bucket load of counter magic, not many creatures manage to stick on the opposite side of the table. I'm currently testing out EE again, although slower, it does give you massive card advantage when used wisely, Even more effective if you have a variety of casting cost creatures i.e. 1, 2 and 3 cc.
as for the nimble mongoose considerations, i think that mongoose is still a good creature to run in a deck like this. the basic 12 creatures (mongoose/confidant/goyf) don't need to change. we can just run an additional 1-2 additional creatures to act as finishers like dreadnought. 1-2 dreadnought + the basic 12 creature package should be more than enough.
I think if you want to play Thoughtseize like he said, Spell Snare is the card to cut. You should have 18-20 blue cards not counting the Spell Snares anyway (or at least I do, well I play Spell Pierce over Spell Snare but you get the idea...). Thoughtseize gives you incredibly strong combinations of plays on turn 1 too. For this deck, other than having Stifle, there's nothing you can do on turn 1 that's better than fetch Underground Sea (daze open or bluffed), Thoughtseize. IMO.
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
EDIT: On second thoughts, that was what you probably meant D00msday.
Now that SotF will be banned from Legacy in January, do you think the black splash is inferior to white or red splash? Does this mean a return of Can-Thresh?
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
Bob is so sick he's hard to pass up; CA is what tempo thresh decks need today. Fire can sometimes grant card advantage by hitting 2 X/1's but that is rare. I'm switching to the black version very soon with survival getting axed. It seems better for the reasons stated above.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Would using preemptive stuff like Inquisition of Kozilek or Duress help in this MU to take out their Exhume/Reanimate ? or should we rather wait and counter them instead? Im thinking Spell Pierce vs 1cc discard to board in against them.
[CARD]4 Spell Pierce
3 Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle
2 Rushing River
2 Trygon Predator
1 Relic of Progenitus[/CARD]
I expect to meet combo (reanimate/sneak&tell/Dredge included), merfolk, rock and zoo. I feel I'm missing out on something, perhaps I could replace one of the three needles with something else. My MD is listed in the first post, which btw need input on MU analysis/strategy.
D3@D
Crypt is faster and doesnt affect your graveyard.
If you're concerned about swarm engineered explosives seems okay at least although its hard to use it as a catch all without taking some splash damage.
Just my 2 cents
Said about Yawgmoth’s Will
Credits to Miraculous Recovery Signatures for the truly miraculous sig.
GURRUG Delver
RGoblins
RUGPunishing Balance
Modern:
UR Izzet Tron
I like jailer, especially since stuff like sotf -> shriekmaw/pridgemage can't get rid of him but tapping out turn two is probably too slow against most graveyard combo decks.
What do you guys think about Rushing River vs. other bounce/card options? It takes out larger creatures that gets through, takes out two blockers to make room or leathal counter attack, and also permanents like Planeswalkers (however, Needle could handle those as well).
EDIT: Did some small edit on the original post as well. LMK what you guys think!
I was very interested in the nought-plan at first, but I been too happy with my current list and like many other things, dreadnought does include some risk/drawbacks to your build as well as its potential benefits. For one, its not too hard to disrupt the 12/12 beast, and it sets you quite a bit back in tempo if it does get disrupted by your opponent, which kind of goes against the decks philosophy.
Speaking from the point of view of someone who used Rushing River in a red threshold variant (I don't own a Dark thresh deck).
Used to have one river and one Wipe Away maindeck, but later on I changed it to 2 rivers for a number of reasons - being able to bounce two things, only single blue requirement compared to Wipe Away, the river also helps reach threshold quicker if the kicker is paid.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
I'll keep this in mind if I need more reinfocement against Merfolks and Goblins. Right now I'm testing Disfigure.
But say you do include 2x Noughts in your SB. Do you need more Stifle-effects as well? or is it sufficient with 4x Stifle?