it is, but less will be packed, since survival is probably getting the stick.
The removal of Survival from the metagame won't remove graveyard hate from it. Decks will continue to run hate to answer dredge, reanimator, (goyf), not to mention running Pridemage (humility answers this), KGrip, etc. I dunno, I'm probably just playing favorites here
I just fell for the redundancy of Rifter. Moat and Humility both lock out aggro decks. You've got choices from about 40 board sweepers, and dozens and dozens of toolbox cards. For that matter, I'll add the toolbox list in just a couple minutes.
Kher Keep could be used for tokens instead of Kjeldoran Outpost if you don't want to get 2-for-1ed. But those tokens need Humility or something to pump them before they could do any damage and the land only taps for colorless. Not sure if it's worth it. Just a thought.
Kher Keep could be used for tokens instead of Kjeldoran Outpost if you don't want to get 2-for-1ed. But those tokens need Humility or something to pump them before they could do any damage and the land only taps for colorless. Not sure if it's worth it. Just a thought.
That's actually not a bad suggestion, and deserves to be noted.
Edit: I'll get around to changing the OP later. I've been working on it for roughly the past two hours. I'm done editing large posts for today.
Leyline of Sanctity could be added to the list. It could be used as a tutor target or have 3 or 4 to try to draw it in your opening hand. Eh it probably wouldn't be worth including as a 1 of. But starting the game with shroud could definitely help some matchups. Ivory Mask is like the same as the leyline but can't be free. The other leylines are meh.
Solitary Confinement was already suggested. I like it but you'd probably want loam if you play it and then that sorta changes the deck.
Leyline of Sanctity could be added to the list. It could be used as a tutor target or have 3 or 4 to try to draw it in your opening hand. Eh it probably wouldn't be worth including as a 1 of. But starting the game with shroud could definitely help some matchups. Ivory Mask is like the same as the leyline but can't be free. The other leylines are meh.
Solitary Confinement was already suggested. I like it but you'd probably want loam if you play it and then that sorta changes the deck.
Thats all I got at the moment.
Thanks for this. Mask and Leyline have both been added to the list.
Today was the first time in weeks I've had a chance to test some more. All test games were done pre-board. Some slight changes were made, decklist below:
Death and Taxes (1-0)
Humility. No really, without their tricks, they're basically just running White Weenie beats with swords.
BGw Rock (2-1)
Game 1, I kept a questionable hand (4 white spells, 2 Steppes and a Mountain), only to be met with 2 wastelands. Moderate frustration ensued, and I scooped on turn 3.
Game 2, I was able to stall out using Swords to remove their Dark Confidants to stall long enough to land Crucible of Worlds, eating their manabase. Elspeth plus Humility sealed the deal.
Game 3, Blood Moon showed that it completely decimates their Manabase. Additionally, my hand seemed to curve out nearly perfectly: turn 2 cycles Dragon, turn 3 Blood Moon, turn 4 Humility, turn 5 Elspeth. The game ended fairly quickly.
Affinity (2-1)
Game 1, I mulliganned to 5 and scooped after keeping a 1-lander and not drawing a second land.
Games 2 and 3, it was fairly obvious that Humility is less effective. However, it does stop a lot of things: Disciple, shrinks Frogs, removes flying from 'Thopter, etc. Runed Halo was also a life saver (more info regarding that below). Humility was a nice stall, EE was able to remove all sorts of threats, and Chant is, as most times, a time walk.
A few thoughts:
1). The more I test Elspeth, the more I love her.
2). I was questioning Engineered Explosives before my testing. After testing, I no longer question it... at all. Even with only two colours available, it's able to answer all sorts of threats: Chalice, Counterbalance, Tarmogoyf, Jitte, Dark Confidant... the list goes on.
3). Another card I was questioning was Crucible/Wasteland. After recurring fetchlands and wasteland to a huge tempo gain, again, I don't question it anymore. Mind you, this is just my opinion; I'd suggest testing it if you question it yourself.
4). Runed Halo is hilarious. One of my favourite parts of testing today was naming Galvanic Blast against affinity, then realizing that because of this, he couldn't blast Elspeth.
More testing to come, but probably not for a couple weeks; I'll be on a training trip for swimming until January 14
Is it reasonable adding Ghostly Prison in a aggro/aggrocontrol-heavy environment? Assuming one isn't playing Moat , I think it's very synergistic with the Wasteland / Crucible of Worlds interaction and with Ajani Vengeant as well.
After all, Prison works well in a deck with a good mana denial strategy, but is mana denial a good strategy for this deck?
The theme for this deck shouldn't be in mana denial, but rather in disrupting the strategies of the metagame. Enlightened tutor toolbox allows for a ridiculous amount of hate for most decks, humility answers most creature-based decks... well, I think most of this has been said. I run the single Crucible alongside 2x Wasteland because it feels appropriate where I play. There are matchups where Blood Moon will more than suffice, there are times where full-on removing the lands is more important.
A mana denial plan is best suited for something far more tempo oriented (see Canadian Thresh or New Horizons) or a lock deck (Think Staxx).
Edit: I just finished going through DeckDB.com and the Rifter thread on mtgthesource.com to compile a list of all cards suggested for Rifter. Find these lists in the OP.
So with the rise in aggro as the predominant strategy, isn't Rifter in a position to rise as a competitive deck again?
GW, GB, BW and GWB decks are all looking popular after the last SCG. Has anyone tested against them at all? I know this deck is prone to beat aggro but I'm curious how it stands up to those decks since they are a little less aggressive than Goblins or Fish.
I've always liked the rifter deck and have been following the thread for a while. I recently decided to try to put the deck together but I have a few questions I was hoping you could address. First, why no duals? I understand that you mitigate the impact of Wasteland on your deck by not including them but the color fixing benefits seem to outweigh the risk. I plan on running two Plateau at most so as not to be entirely dependant on them but they are there if I need them. Secondly, if you had a Moat would you run it in addition to the 3 Humility or in lieu of one of them? It seems to me that they serve much of the same purpose that having 4 in addition to E Tutors might be overkill. Thanks for your efforts.
First, why no duals? I understand that you mitigate the impact of Wasteland on your deck by not including them but the color fixing benefits seem to outweigh the risk. I plan on running two Plateau at most so as not to be entirely dependant on them but they are there if I need them.
Because I'm poor. I believe I was running 2-3 plateaus when I had someone to borrow from.
Secondly, if you had a Moat would you run it in addition to the 3 Humility or in lieu of one of them? It seems to me that they serve much of the same purpose that having 4 in addition to E Tutors might be overkill.
If I had Moat, I'd probably be running 2 Humility, 1 Moat. However, while they do serve a similar purpose, Humility stops several things that Moat alone can't handle: Pridemage, Emrakul, Woodfall Primus, etc.
So I took the deck out for its first spin here today and went 2-0 before having to drop because of time constraints when the tournament started an hour late and no one was keeping a vigilant eye on the round clock. Anyway, I went up against Zoo in round 1 and went 2-0 thanks in great part to Blood Moon messing with all of their dual lands and buying me enough time to lay down the combat hosers. Round 2 I faced affinity. Game 1 I opened with a Moat in hand which more or less gummed up the ground for the critical turns of the game until I could make threats of my own, eventually winning after laying down an Elspeth and 2 Rifts. Game two I sided in a Null Rod which I mulliganed aggressively for it or a way to find it. I kept a hand with an E Tutor allowing for a turn 2 Rod. My opponent promptly scooped. I will be happy to give a more in depth description when I am not typing on my cell phone. I can update with a decklist as well if anyone would be interested. I'm greatly looking forward to playing it again soon.
So I took the deck out for its first spin here today and went 2-0 before having to drop because of time constraints when the tournament started an hour late and no one was keeping a vigilant eye on the round clock. Anyway, I went up against Zoo in round 1 and went 2-0 thanks in great part to Blood Moon messing with all of their dual lands and buying me enough time to lay down the combat hosers. Round 2 I faced affinity. Game 1 I opened with a Moat in hand which more or less gummed up the ground for the critical turns of the game until I could make threats of my own, eventually winning after laying down an Elspeth and 2 Rifts. Game two I sided in a Null Rod which I mulliganed aggressively for it or a way to find it. I kept a hand with an E Tutor allowing for a turn 2 Rod. My opponent promptly scooped. I will be happy to give a more in depth description when I am not typing on my cell phone. I can update with a decklist as well if anyone would be interested. I'm greatly looking forward to playing it again soon.
Oh, I wish I had Moat... it seems like it would make so many matches quite a bit easier. As for Null Rod, it seems like a very solid inclusion if you're expecting any Affinity (also seems solid against Storm, to a point, shutting off LED, Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal).
I'd love to see a decklist. Post whenever you get a chance
Overall a reasonably standard list I think aside from maybe the lone Mistveil Plains. This was sort of a last minute addition on my part when I was thinking of ways to get back key pieces should they be destroyed along the way. It doesn't take up a deckslot and is fetchable with either Arid Mesa or the Eternal Dragon. I didn't get to see it in action but I'm still thinking it may be worthwhile in some niche scenarios. Then again, it may just prove to be an ugly baby.
Instead of Mistveil Plains, I've been throwing in a single Ancient Den, just because it can be tutored up by Enlightened Tutor. Otherwise, your list looks pretty solid; congrats on those two matches
I've got an event this Thursday, and I'm looking to play Rifter there. I'll post the results right here.
against combo you could run ghostfire or even a Pyrite Spellbomb spellbomb is prolly better but i feel like we could tutor for something much stronger then that.
the more an more i think about this deck the more i wanna play it though for me my meta is unknown. I've also been out of the game for a while an haven't played which also hurts.
this is my current build and is rampages through any critter based deck example, tempo, bant, maverick, gobblins... it has a fair MU against u/w and esper control builds... it gets monkey stomped by goldfishing decks aka combo, dredge
i did some shuffleing around to make space for the 7 cards in punishing/grove. not much different fairly streamline changes that i think overall improve the deck... i have been tinkering this deck for several years and i truly believe the meta is moving into our field of expertise!!
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PARAMEDIC/FIREFIGHTER
YUMA, AZ
I started in SAGA and quit at kamigawa... just came back in nov,2010
Saw the thread and started reading, the deck seems really cool. The one thing I'm confused about is how you would actually go about playing it. Is it a race to get to Lightning Rift and win from there, or are you just trying to kill everything until you set up?
Also, for the lists with Chant/Silence, why no Isochron Scepter? You can tutor for it so it can be a 1-of preventing too many hands where it's bad, and you can always toss StP on it for a soft creature lock.
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Afro Dave, @st4rwind on Twitter
Level 2 Judge
Legacy Decks:
- Deadguy Ale WB
- Imperial Bloodwolf R
- Rifter RW
- Rockman WBG
- Burn R
- T.E.S. WUBRG
- Belcher RG
- 10 Land Stompy G
- Zoo (budget) RGW
Saw the thread and started reading, the deck seems really cool. The one thing I'm confused about is how you would actually go about playing it. Is it a race to get to Lightning Rift and win from there, or are you just trying to kill everything until you set up?
Also, for the lists with Chant/Silence, why no Isochron Scepter? You can tutor for it so it can be a 1-of preventing too many hands where it's bad, and you can always toss StP on it for a soft creature lock.
the basis is both of what you said it runs like a control deck without the counters. lol... it drains opposing resources in a different way. and if you get an early RIFT / Assault with LFTL //OR// punishing grove online you go a little more aggressive with strategy...
i have been running this build and JUNK against my gauntlet of tier deck from recent tournaments and this deck literally WALKS through aggro, tempo decks with an easy 80/20 slant... and control has become much better for me since the PUNISHING + GROVE came in to kill walkers ect...
the OLNY 100% scoop is against COMBO decks that rage out on early turns. i have NO way to interact with them whatsoever until SB....
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PARAMEDIC/FIREFIGHTER
YUMA, AZ
I started in SAGA and quit at kamigawa... just came back in nov,2010
So, I guess Astral Slide is still too slow, huh? I really love the deck, and with the cycling, not only do you have a control element, but now you have additional tricks...like cycling out one of their guys, then Miracling a Devastation Tide to clear the opposing board...or sliding out something and drawing a new hand...hmmm...
The last successful Astral Slide deck was in like 2008, was Wbg and used both Mox Diamond to help power it out sooner. That said, Lightning Rift seems much stronger than Slide currently; theres too many creatures that you just don't want to Slide away (anything in UW Blade, for instance)
Really? Won't Delver come back as his 1/1 self? Won't the counters on Champion of the Parish fall off?? I also was thinking more along the lines of simply having a way to slide your own guys. But, Sliding a big guy out, then Bouncing the Slide before he comes back...wouldn't that work? Or would it simply be better to play cycling with Rift and hoping to hit Miracle?
I dunno..I could see some things being highly entertaining with slide, like sliding away germ tokens. And if you had no choice, sliding away a delver takes away it's transformation. That said, rift kills it dead. and that's just better. Are there any that run blood moon maindeck to battle the better control decks?
edit: this deck plays similarly to death and taxes, in some ways, mostly that it's reliant on activated abilities to control the battlefield and that it's enchantments that do it. It's possible that you could run an enlightened tutor toolbox in the board for combo hate? I mean, it's what gives DNT a potent hate package against them.
edit 2: For recursion, per the post below mine, eternal witness and slide is just mean.
I know Slide decks used to run it...any suggestions for reviving either Slide, or Rift?
EDIT: I know there was a G/W Slide deck that ran Witness and what not...I'm just wondering if there's any chance with the new set out, can we use Slide, or Rift competatively.
The removal of Survival from the metagame won't remove graveyard hate from it. Decks will continue to run hate to answer dredge, reanimator, (goyf), not to mention running Pridemage (humility answers this), KGrip, etc. I dunno, I'm probably just playing favorites here
I just fell for the redundancy of Rifter. Moat and Humility both lock out aggro decks. You've got choices from about 40 board sweepers, and dozens and dozens of toolbox cards. For that matter, I'll add the toolbox list in just a couple minutes.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
That's actually not a bad suggestion, and deserves to be noted.
Edit: I'll get around to changing the OP later. I've been working on it for roughly the past two hours. I'm done editing large posts for today.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
Solitary Confinement was already suggested. I like it but you'd probably want loam if you play it and then that sorta changes the deck.
Thats all I got at the moment.
Thanks for this. Mask and Leyline have both been added to the list.
************************************************************************************************************
Today was the first time in weeks I've had a chance to test some more. All test games were done pre-board. Some slight changes were made, decklist below:
3 Eternal Dragon
Spells
3 Humility
3 Lightning Rift
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Orim's Chant
2 Slice and Dice
4 Renewed Faith
2 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Runed Halo
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Blood Moon
1 Ancient Den
Lands
7 Plains
3 Mountain
3 Arid Mesa
4 Forgotten Cave
4 Secluded Steppe
2 Wasteland
Death and Taxes (1-0)
Humility. No really, without their tricks, they're basically just running White Weenie beats with swords.
BGw Rock (2-1)
Game 1, I kept a questionable hand (4 white spells, 2 Steppes and a Mountain), only to be met with 2 wastelands. Moderate frustration ensued, and I scooped on turn 3.
Game 2, I was able to stall out using Swords to remove their Dark Confidants to stall long enough to land Crucible of Worlds, eating their manabase. Elspeth plus Humility sealed the deal.
Game 3, Blood Moon showed that it completely decimates their Manabase. Additionally, my hand seemed to curve out nearly perfectly: turn 2 cycles Dragon, turn 3 Blood Moon, turn 4 Humility, turn 5 Elspeth. The game ended fairly quickly.
Affinity (2-1)
Game 1, I mulliganned to 5 and scooped after keeping a 1-lander and not drawing a second land.
Games 2 and 3, it was fairly obvious that Humility is less effective. However, it does stop a lot of things: Disciple, shrinks Frogs, removes flying from 'Thopter, etc. Runed Halo was also a life saver (more info regarding that below). Humility was a nice stall, EE was able to remove all sorts of threats, and Chant is, as most times, a time walk.
A few thoughts:
1). The more I test Elspeth, the more I love her.
2). I was questioning Engineered Explosives before my testing. After testing, I no longer question it... at all. Even with only two colours available, it's able to answer all sorts of threats: Chalice, Counterbalance, Tarmogoyf, Jitte, Dark Confidant... the list goes on.
3). Another card I was questioning was Crucible/Wasteland. After recurring fetchlands and wasteland to a huge tempo gain, again, I don't question it anymore. Mind you, this is just my opinion; I'd suggest testing it if you question it yourself.
4). Runed Halo is hilarious. One of my favourite parts of testing today was naming Galvanic Blast against affinity, then realizing that because of this, he couldn't blast Elspeth.
More testing to come, but probably not for a couple weeks; I'll be on a training trip for swimming until January 14
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
The theme for this deck shouldn't be in mana denial, but rather in disrupting the strategies of the metagame. Enlightened tutor toolbox allows for a ridiculous amount of hate for most decks, humility answers most creature-based decks... well, I think most of this has been said. I run the single Crucible alongside 2x Wasteland because it feels appropriate where I play. There are matchups where Blood Moon will more than suffice, there are times where full-on removing the lands is more important.
A mana denial plan is best suited for something far more tempo oriented (see Canadian Thresh or New Horizons) or a lock deck (Think Staxx).
Edit: I just finished going through DeckDB.com and the Rifter thread on mtgthesource.com to compile a list of all cards suggested for Rifter. Find these lists in the OP.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
GW, GB, BW and GWB decks are all looking popular after the last SCG. Has anyone tested against them at all? I know this deck is prone to beat aggro but I'm curious how it stands up to those decks since they are a little less aggressive than Goblins or Fish.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Because I'm poor. I believe I was running 2-3 plateaus when I had someone to borrow from.
If I had Moat, I'd probably be running 2 Humility, 1 Moat. However, while they do serve a similar purpose, Humility stops several things that Moat alone can't handle: Pridemage, Emrakul, Woodfall Primus, etc.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Oh, I wish I had Moat... it seems like it would make so many matches quite a bit easier. As for Null Rod, it seems like a very solid inclusion if you're expecting any Affinity (also seems solid against Storm, to a point, shutting off LED, Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal).
I'd love to see a decklist. Post whenever you get a chance
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
3x Arid Mesa
1x Plateau
8x Plains
1x Mistveil Plains
2x Mountain
4x Secluded Steppe
4x Forgotten Cave
2x Wasteland
2x Eternal Dragon
3x Enlightened Tutor
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Orim's Chant
4x Renewed Faith
2x Slice and Dice
2x Decree of Justice
1x Akroma's Vengeance
3x Lightning Rift
1x Runed Halo
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Blood Moon
2x Humility
1x Moat
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Crucible of Worlds
4x Pyroblast
4x Abeyance
2x Rune of Protection: Red
2x Rule of Law
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Pithing Needle
1x Null Rod
Overall a reasonably standard list I think aside from maybe the lone Mistveil Plains. This was sort of a last minute addition on my part when I was thinking of ways to get back key pieces should they be destroyed along the way. It doesn't take up a deckslot and is fetchable with either Arid Mesa or the Eternal Dragon. I didn't get to see it in action but I'm still thinking it may be worthwhile in some niche scenarios. Then again, it may just prove to be an ugly baby.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
I've got an event this Thursday, and I'm looking to play Rifter there. I'll post the results right here.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
this deck is ridicilas against the current field of RUG, BANT, and U/W ans i believer EXTREELY well positioned to take over the meta until it shifts..
any ideas about hate bears SB against combo? TES, ANT, Belch?
EDIT; has anyone tried punishing fire burnwillows?
YUMA, AZ
it opens you up to wasteland but you do have Crucible of Worlds
against combo you could run ghostfire or even a Pyrite Spellbomb spellbomb is prolly better but i feel like we could tutor for something much stronger then that.
the more an more i think about this deck the more i wanna play it though for me my meta is unknown. I've also been out of the game for a while an haven't played which also hurts.
EDH G Kamahl Fist of Krosa [/LEFT]
Legacy:
:symg::symb::symg:Pox:symg::symb::symg:
Edh:
:symg::symw::symu:Angus Mackenzie:symg::symw::symu:
4 Forgotten Cave
4 Secluded Steppe
3 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
1 Mountain
2 Plains
2 Taiga
1 Tranquil Thicket
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
Creatures: 2
2 Wall of Omens
INSTANTS: 22
3 Slice and Dice
3 Starstorm
4 Renewed Faith
3 Spark Spray
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
3x Punishing Fire
2 Wrath of God
2 Life from the Loam
PLANESWALKER 1
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
ARTIFACT/ENCHANT:7
4 Lightning Rift
1 Humility
1 Seismic Assault
1 Relic of Progenitus
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Angel's Grace
1 Meekstone
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Choke
i did some shuffleing around to make space for the 7 cards in punishing/grove. not much different fairly streamline changes that i think overall improve the deck... i have been tinkering this deck for several years and i truly believe the meta is moving into our field of expertise!!
YUMA, AZ
Also, for the lists with Chant/Silence, why no Isochron Scepter? You can tutor for it so it can be a 1-of preventing too many hands where it's bad, and you can always toss StP on it for a soft creature lock.
Afro Dave, @st4rwind on Twitter
Level 2 Judge
Legacy Decks:
- Imperial Bloodwolf R
- Rifter RW
- Rockman WBG
- Burn R
- T.E.S. WUBRG
- Belcher RG
- 10 Land Stompy G
- Zoo (budget) RGW
the basis is both of what you said it runs like a control deck without the counters. lol... it drains opposing resources in a different way. and if you get an early RIFT / Assault with LFTL //OR// punishing grove online you go a little more aggressive with strategy...
i have been running this build and JUNK against my gauntlet of tier deck from recent tournaments and this deck literally WALKS through aggro, tempo decks with an easy 80/20 slant... and control has become much better for me since the PUNISHING + GROVE came in to kill walkers ect...
the OLNY 100% scoop is against COMBO decks that rage out on early turns. i have NO way to interact with them whatsoever until SB....
YUMA, AZ
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
edit: this deck plays similarly to death and taxes, in some ways, mostly that it's reliant on activated abilities to control the battlefield and that it's enchantments that do it. It's possible that you could run an enlightened tutor toolbox in the board for combo hate? I mean, it's what gives DNT a potent hate package against them.
edit 2: For recursion, per the post below mine, eternal witness and slide is just mean.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
EDIT: I know there was a G/W Slide deck that ran Witness and what not...I'm just wondering if there's any chance with the new set out, can we use Slide, or Rift competatively.