The strength of CB/Top is that you can respond to the casted spell, stack the top card to hopefully match the cc of the spell, and let CB trigger -- thus countering the spell. You have the "soft lock" of CB/Top in a nutshell.
***
In other news, has anyone considered snuff out in CB/Top.dec? 4cc to get the higher end of legacy spells + it's "free" removal if necessary. Obviously intended for non-BANT color cb lists. I'm thinking possibly UBr/UBw
I placed 113 at the GP playing this. I never felt that I had no outs and rarely did i lose to not making mistakes. If you are looking for a solid deck that is fun to play i'd say to pick this up. It was pretty good for me.
Also if you are the type to play a turn 1 brainstorm or a turn 2/3/4 2xbrainstorm back to back drawing 2 of the same cards then it's not the deck for you :). I saw a ton of people playing brainstorm and getting very little value out of it. Make your cards do more for you!
i'm planning on playing NO countertop at GP Portland 8-mans. i have a few questions.
what match-ups do you aggressively mull to turn-one hierarch?
are 6 3-drops enough?
how do you keep a 3-drop on top to protect against krosan grip but not draw it on your draw step?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from ClockworkSwordfish »
Had semenulative upkeep before it was fashionable. Look what you forced me to do, Wizards! IT DIDN'T HAVE TO GO DOWN LIKE THIS!
Quote from LandBoySteve »
Like I said, I can only go by my own experience, which is now 18 years. Kind of disheartening when you think you know something and you find out that you're a notch below a low grade moron.
I've been reading all about it, and a deck that uses the CounterTop engine looks extremely fun to play, as I've really only played with aggro-style decks in the past.
But I was wondering if the CounterTop combo really only works well in a well-defined meta, where everyone is using top tier decks.
I've been reading all about it, and a deck that uses the CounterTop engine looks extremely fun to play, as I've really only played with aggro-style decks in the past.
But I was wondering if the CounterTop combo really only works well in a well-defined meta, where everyone is using top tier decks.
To a certain extant, yes. The idea behind CT is that everything good in the legacy environment is 2cc and under. So if you are playing causal with it, you rly have to know when you can count on CB, and when you can't.
Hello, could someone help me with this deck? I would like to run a version focused in control. Is this version competitive? Any suggestions? Thank you very much ^^
Never played counterbalance however I can see some key cards you are missing, You need jace TMS. I heard controlling what they draw and an alternate win condition is always good. Engineered explosives because blowing up tokens is never bad, and academy ruins are so can do it all over again. Some builds run black so you can play innocent blood, pernicous deeds or whatever other black control cards you want to run.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Retired:
ANT, Legacy (75% Foiled) Over all record 21-5-4. RIP
U/R Splinter Twin, Standard 39-10-15 TWINNING!
Never played counterbalance however I can see some key cards you are missing, You need jace TMS. I heard controlling what they draw and an alternate win condition is always good. Engineered explosives because blowing up tokens is never bad, and academy ruins are so can do it all over again. Some builds run black so you can play innocent blood, pernicous deeds or whatever other black control cards you want to run.
Jace the bank-breaker is not necessary for this deck. This is an aggro control deck that wins by beating face and controling the board with countertop to gain card advantage. Jace plays a bigger role in landstill deck and even there he is usually a second alternate wincon and is only ever played as a 1 or 2 of.
Your list seems a little light in the creature department an reminds me more of a threshold build collapsed with landstill. Vet, interesting but I would look at adding more utility creatures ala:
Noble Hierarch
Qasali Pridemage
Rhonx War Monk
Knight of The Reliquary
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Maverick -- Storm Click here for trade thread
Trade thread under reconstruction. Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Jace the bank-breaker is not necessary for this deck. This is an aggro control deck that wins by beating face and controling the board with countertop to gain card advantage. Jace plays a bigger role in landstill deck and even there he is usually a second alternate wincon and is only ever played as a 1 or 2 of.
Your list seems a little light in the creature department an reminds me more of a threshold build collapsed with landstill. Vet, interesting but I would look at adding more utility creatures ala:
Noble Hierarch
Qasali Pridemage
Rhonx War Monk
Knight of The Reliquary
So every build I have seen at SCG tournaments and any half decent builds that are running jace are doing it wrong? I actually have yet to see a counter top build not run jace because he is that good for this deck. If you want to control the board would you rather deal with threats after they have resolved or before? Save your counter spells when jace can just put threats out of range for your opponent on the bottom of the deck, or even put anything with converted mana cost 4 or more on bottom just so you can counter balance whatever they draw. Not to mention that Jace also allows you to brainstorm every turn for massive card advantage.
Noble hierarchs are so good in the goyf battles because your goyf will always be the bigger badder goyf. Plus mana acceleration is never a bad thing.
Trygon pred is always a great card in countertop, not only is it a naturalize on a stick which is never a bad thing it also counters krosan grip when you have a counterbalance on the board. Always keep it on top in games 2 and 3 against anything that runs green. I would run 1 main and 1 side.
Yes but we can top during our main phase and leave a three-drop on top to counter their k-grip, we don't have to wait to use our top until their turn if we have enough mana.
If you aren't playing Jace in Countertop, you're most likely doing it wrong. It dodges every type of conventional removal, which is absolutely imperative when you're running <10 ways to win the game. It also wins topdeck mode better than any card in the format.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
sig by Anime FX:http://tinyurl.com/2u743o Team Blitzkrieg- When We Put Our Cards Down, You Pick Yours Up. Team Rehab- Wicked Defunct, But Still Better Than You.
I have been playing this BUG (Dark Balance?) counterbalance list for the last month or so. I play legacy in a very well developed meta in the midwest and I haven't dropped a match with it yet, top 4ing each time I've brought it out. It seems to have a bit of an advantage in the mirror.
The Bob/Balance/Top synergy is fantastic. The deck is able to play some of the best cards in the format (bob, goyf, fow, brainstorm, top, wasteland) with great effect.
Your list is similar to the baseruption lists from two years ago (think Ugwb good stuff with trygons, confidants, etc. from GP chicago that nassif won).
While it is a powerful list, the reason why it dropped in popularity (especially after zendikar) was the insane clock Zoo lists could bring. I do REALLY like your list though in the current meta. GO FOR THE THROAT instead of smother is a possible upgrade. Also, why 3 Tops instead of 4, and how are the pulses working for you?
I feel like the Pulses in the above list should be Deeds, but I only know this deck from playing against it, for the time being. My main reason for posting is, well, why isn't this deck in the Proven area yet???
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
It actually has a pretty decent matchup against zoo, although it is not the most favored. You can bring in cards like Submerge, Diabolic Edict, and Deeds from the sideboard if you feel you need more removal. Being able to drop a Goyf to match them in the race turn 2 with counters and whatnot as backup usually turn the game in your favor.
The pulses have been absolutely fantastic. They answer everything with efficiency and having the two pulses and the clique as three drops is nice. If you're afraid of k-grip (which I never really am--the Bob provides so much advantage that I often find myself pitching an extra balance to a force), it's nice to keep them near the top. But I wouldn't cut the pulses. They've been all-stars, and, like 0verfl0w said, deeds don't go well with having balance and top and goyf and bob on board... but you can bring it in from the side if you truly need it. Pulses have blown some of my opponents out, though.
I've thought about Go for the Throat. I don't know how affinity and the new MUD list is going to perform, so I'll have to feel it out. I haven't had an instance where the smother hasn't killed a threat I needed to get out of the way that a counter or the Jace or Pulse couldn't answer. I might just be lucky there, though.
Three tops instead of four because I already have 4x brainstorm, 2x ponder, and 2x Jace, so it's rarely a game that I don't run into it. Having 4, of course, would increase the odds of having it, but drawing an extra top is... pretty bad. I suppose sometimes you could top/draw the one on the board away, fetch it back into the deck, then play the other one, but I would just rather not have so many dead cards after the first has found its home. That is up for debate, though. Some may feel more comfortable with having 4 tops rather than 3, in which case I am not sure what I would prefer to cut.
Another good thing about this deck is the access to black (obviously). Extripate is still an all-star, making your loam/new horizons and dredge matchups favorable. Bringing in Engineered Plague is good against both gobbies and belcher, even though belcher is a near auto-win... you just get rid of the smothers for the plagues and name goblins after they over extend. You can also pulse the tokens, too, of course.
(sorry for the long response that isn't the most terribly focused!)
How do ya guys think a CTop shell with a faestalker creature base?
Like I was thinking about using: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5728&iddeck=41469
That deck but just add 4x counterbalance and 4x tops and get rid of the bolts/terminates, fix the mana base etc.
This is my counterbalance list. My sideboard is actually 14 cards right now, and the jace is just there because. Any suggestions?
Hey there. My list is very similar. Before I buy the lands I'm just wondering if a Sea is worth the extra cash over Volcanic. I'm also curious as to what the Blood Moon is good against. Thanks!
It's possible, but not optimal. Tarmogoyf and Vendillion Clique are both more efficient/better creatures for what you're trying to do.
Adam Barnello came up with a list a while back that had like 2 Counterbalance, 3 Sensei's Divining Top, and then had Stoneforge Mystic in it with Umezawa's Jitte and Sword of the Meek as the targets.
He had Thopter Foundry in the deck too, so grabbing Sword of the Meek was a legitimate play.
I'd recommend looking at past lists and replacing Tarmogoyf with Stoneforge Mystic.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy Currently playing:
Merfolk
EDH Currently playing:
:symb::symu::symw: Sharuum, the Hegemon
Why is it that counterbalance is at such a low right now? I haven't seen anyone playing it in the loongest time. I have basically all the cards to make a deck for it, but I've just been deterred because of that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Retired
Legacy: GRUB Lands
Modern: U Tron RG Tron RG Ponza
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Aren't Moat or Humility considered better creature answers at 4cc than Snuff Out?
Sales Thread
Also if you are the type to play a turn 1 brainstorm or a turn 2/3/4 2xbrainstorm back to back drawing 2 of the same cards then it's not the deck for you :). I saw a ton of people playing brainstorm and getting very little value out of it. Make your cards do more for you!
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Trygon Predator
1 Progenitus
Enchantments
4 Counterbalance
Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Natural Order
Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volcanic Island
3 Firespout
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce
Haikus Are Easy
But Sometimes They Don't Make Sense
Refrigerator
Is it Jace TMS
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=399504
I am new to legacy, and my friend is loaning me his deck
how do you sideboard with this? O_o
I don't know why, but he replaced a Mage with a Venser. >_>
help please?
what match-ups do you aggressively mull to turn-one hierarch?
are 6 3-drops enough?
how do you keep a 3-drop on top to protect against krosan grip but not draw it on your draw step?
But I was wondering if the CounterTop combo really only works well in a well-defined meta, where everyone is using top tier decks.
To a certain extant, yes. The idea behind CT is that everything good in the legacy environment is 2cc and under. So if you are playing causal with it, you rly have to know when you can count on CB, and when you can't.
Never played counterbalance however I can see some key cards you are missing, You need jace TMS. I heard controlling what they draw and an alternate win condition is always good. Engineered explosives because blowing up tokens is never bad, and academy ruins are so can do it all over again. Some builds run black so you can play innocent blood, pernicous deeds or whatever other black control cards you want to run.
ANT, Legacy (75% Foiled) Over all record 21-5-4. RIP
U/R Splinter Twin, Standard 39-10-15 TWINNING!
Jace the bank-breaker is not necessary for this deck. This is an aggro control deck that wins by beating face and controling the board with countertop to gain card advantage. Jace plays a bigger role in landstill deck and even there he is usually a second alternate wincon and is only ever played as a 1 or 2 of.
Your list seems a little light in the creature department an reminds me more of a threshold build collapsed with landstill. Vet, interesting but I would look at adding more utility creatures ala:
Noble Hierarch
Qasali Pridemage
Rhonx War Monk
Knight of The Reliquary
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
So every build I have seen at SCG tournaments and any half decent builds that are running jace are doing it wrong? I actually have yet to see a counter top build not run jace because he is that good for this deck. If you want to control the board would you rather deal with threats after they have resolved or before? Save your counter spells when jace can just put threats out of range for your opponent on the bottom of the deck, or even put anything with converted mana cost 4 or more on bottom just so you can counter balance whatever they draw. Not to mention that Jace also allows you to brainstorm every turn for massive card advantage.
Noble hierarchs are so good in the goyf battles because your goyf will always be the bigger badder goyf. Plus mana acceleration is never a bad thing.
Trygon pred is always a great card in countertop, not only is it a naturalize on a stick which is never a bad thing it also counters krosan grip when you have a counterbalance on the board. Always keep it on top in games 2 and 3 against anything that runs green. I would run 1 main and 1 side.
ANT, Legacy (75% Foiled) Over all record 21-5-4. RIP
U/R Splinter Twin, Standard 39-10-15 TWINNING!
sig by Anime FX:http://tinyurl.com/2u743o
Team Blitzkrieg- When We Put Our Cards Down, You Pick Yours Up.
Team Rehab- Wicked Defunct, But Still Better Than You.
The Bob/Balance/Top synergy is fantastic. The deck is able to play some of the best cards in the format (bob, goyf, fow, brainstorm, top, wasteland) with great effect.
Anywho. Here's my list.
BUG Countertop (Dark Balance?):
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
3 Smother
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
While it is a powerful list, the reason why it dropped in popularity (especially after zendikar) was the insane clock Zoo lists could bring. I do REALLY like your list though in the current meta.
GO FOR THE THROAT instead of smother is a possible upgrade. Also, why 3 Tops instead of 4, and how are the pulses working for you?
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
The pulses have been absolutely fantastic. They answer everything with efficiency and having the two pulses and the clique as three drops is nice. If you're afraid of k-grip (which I never really am--the Bob provides so much advantage that I often find myself pitching an extra balance to a force), it's nice to keep them near the top. But I wouldn't cut the pulses. They've been all-stars, and, like 0verfl0w said, deeds don't go well with having balance and top and goyf and bob on board... but you can bring it in from the side if you truly need it. Pulses have blown some of my opponents out, though.
I've thought about Go for the Throat. I don't know how affinity and the new MUD list is going to perform, so I'll have to feel it out. I haven't had an instance where the smother hasn't killed a threat I needed to get out of the way that a counter or the Jace or Pulse couldn't answer. I might just be lucky there, though.
Three tops instead of four because I already have 4x brainstorm, 2x ponder, and 2x Jace, so it's rarely a game that I don't run into it. Having 4, of course, would increase the odds of having it, but drawing an extra top is... pretty bad. I suppose sometimes you could top/draw the one on the board away, fetch it back into the deck, then play the other one, but I would just rather not have so many dead cards after the first has found its home. That is up for debate, though. Some may feel more comfortable with having 4 tops rather than 3, in which case I am not sure what I would prefer to cut.
Another good thing about this deck is the access to black (obviously). Extripate is still an all-star, making your loam/new horizons and dredge matchups favorable. Bringing in Engineered Plague is good against both gobbies and belcher, even though belcher is a near auto-win... you just get rid of the smothers for the plagues and name goblins after they over extend. You can also pulse the tokens, too, of course.
(sorry for the long response that isn't the most terribly focused!)
4 enlightened tutor
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 swords to plowshares
2 counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
Combo Pieces
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
2 thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Engineered Explosives
Jace
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Tutor Targets
1 Moat
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Celestial Colonnade
2 Tundra
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
6 Island
2 Plains
1 Blood Moon
1 Ethersworn canonist
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Spell Pierce
2 Path to exile
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Humility
2 Peacekeeper
2 Meddling Mage
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
This is my counterbalance list. My sideboard is actually 14 cards right now, and the jace is just there because. Any suggestions?
Like I was thinking about using:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5728&iddeck=41469
That deck but just add 4x counterbalance and 4x tops and get rid of the bolts/terminates, fix the mana base etc.
Only good deck.
Hey there. My list is very similar. Before I buy the lands I'm just wondering if a Sea is worth the extra cash over Volcanic. I'm also curious as to what the Blood Moon is good against. Thanks!
L1 Judge
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox Warmonk
2 Mother of Runes
1 Trygon Predator
1 Progenitus
Spells:
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Natural Order
3 Sensei's divining top
4 COunterbalance
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Island
2 Forest
A CB deck that runs SFM.
Is this possible?
No budget.
It's possible, but not optimal. Tarmogoyf and Vendillion Clique are both more efficient/better creatures for what you're trying to do.
Adam Barnello came up with a list a while back that had like 2 Counterbalance, 3 Sensei's Divining Top, and then had Stoneforge Mystic in it with Umezawa's Jitte and Sword of the Meek as the targets.
He had Thopter Foundry in the deck too, so grabbing Sword of the Meek was a legitimate play.
I'd recommend looking at past lists and replacing Tarmogoyf with Stoneforge Mystic.
Currently playing:
Merfolk
EDH
Currently playing:
:symb::symu::symw: Sharuum, the Hegemon
MY SALES THREAD!
Retired
Legacy:
GRUB Lands
Modern:
U Tron
RG Tron
RG Ponza