21 lands seems right with 4 3 cmc cards, and that you want to be able to drop a vampire and resolve a highborn trigger. Nighthawk is good, but doesn't do anything until turn 4. Its solid, but I feel the lord effect is better and loading up on three drops isn't what you want to do. Urge to feed seems worse than terminate as it doesn't hit problematic creatures like kotr. I'm probably going to add 4 snuff out, instead of the 2 terminate and 2 chain lightning as it is just such a good tempo play.
Although vampire nocturnus is quite good, its a four-drop in a deck with only 21 lands, not that many red cards, and no way to stack the top of its library except with fetches. Doesn't really seem worth it. The only way vampires works is in a sligh shell; the tribal synergy is generally worse than goblins, as are your lords. The colored mana costs are heavier and you need two colors so you can't play as an effective a mana denial package, and you don't have a goblin ringleader type creature. Playing for the long game doesn't seem viable with vamps.
It wielded unexpectedly good results against Elves and UR Delver. Next week a couple of friends return from their vacations and I'll get to test it against Stoneblade and Show&Tell.
Twenty lands might seem too few but I did not run into any mana problems, except with Cavern, and with higher land counts I often had unwanted lands. I am not sure if i want Cavern of Souls in the deck.
Although it is always fun to explode with Dark Ritual it dries out your hand really fast. Maybe I'll make some space for Dark Confidant. Any suggestions?
I think it's fine, and you should leave the Dark Ritual's in. One thing I noticed about most aggro decks in legacy is that they swarm the field extremely fast, and the inclusion of Aether Vial makes them deadlier. If Vampires want to stand a chance against most aggro decks, then they need an accelerator themselves. Aether Vial, in my honest opinion, doesn't seems to fit as snugly as it does in Merfolk, Goblins, or Slivers. It's hard to make room in the deck. A lot of cards that are ran in Vampires are essential for the deck, so, I feel like Dark Ritual would be a perfect accelerator for the deck. Turn 1 Gatekeeper of Malakir/ Vampire Nighthawk, and Turn 2 Vampire Nocturnus is threatening. I see why you would want to make room for Dark Confidant because of vampires lack of draw power, but you slowly loose life and drawing into a Vampire Nighthawk, or Vampire Nocturnus would hurt too much. If you're looking for a stable draw engine try Sensei's Divining Top. It helps with bad top decks and you can stack your top card to be a Black card, which benefits if you were to have Vampire Nocturnus on the field. My deck is similar to this, but I've been thinking of switching to B/R Vampires, but the destruction isn't as good. I also seems slower due to Olivia Voldaren and having to use mana for our creature destruction outside of Gatekeeper of Malakir.
I wouldn't say their is no love for vampires but it's a less popular deck. Something only a few people probably play. There are many better black decks that utalize cards like Vampire Nighthgawk or Bloodghast. I think making a vampire deck would be an interesting one to make. I don't know if it could be competitve though. You would need the good discard spells like Cabal Therapy and Thoughtsieze. You would also probably need Sensi's Divining Top. Lastly you would need some card drawing engine and mostly likely that would mean playing something like Dark Confidant. If you are like me and trying to make things on a budget then you are gravitating towards something like Phyrexian Arena. Phyrexian Arena seems substandard compared to something like Dark Confidant.
I wouldn't say their is no love for vampires but it's a less popular deck. Something only a few people probably play. There are many better black decks that utalize cards like Vampire Nighthgawk or Bloodghast. I think making a vampire deck would be an interesting one to make. I don't know if it could be competitve though. You would need the good discard spells like Cabal Therapy and Thoughtsieze. You would also probably need Sensi's Divining Top. Lastly you would need some card drawing engine and mostly likely that would mean playing something like Dark Confidant. If you are like me and trying to make things on a budget then you are gravitating towards something like Phyrexian Arena. Phyrexian Arena seems substandard compared to something like Dark Confidant.
I mean, I have a Vampire deck as a second deck for legacy, and to be honest it does well. It can keep up with Elves, if built right. It may not be as fast as Merfolk, or Elves, but it's still really good. A mono black aggro deck that has access to the best discard and destruction cards in the game. I've noticed Elves and Merfolk can usually win on turns 3-5. I've been testing Vampires for a while and they can win by turn 5-7. They're definitely slower by two turns, but with the amount of discard and creature destruction black has to offer one can easily keep up. There should be a primer for this tribe. I think this deck has a lot of potential and can be taken far in tournaments.
Hitoshira, can you post your vampire's list ? I am curious
I'm currently testing them out, but this is what I have so far. Deck works rather well. Aggro's very nicely, but sometimes elves Elves become a problem. I don't have a place that is local for Legacy near me, or rather to my knowledge. I just
play with a few friends, and theory a lot of my choices. Let me know what you guys think.
How does Cabal Therapy work if you don't play spells that look at your opponents hand? Do you just guess once you know what you're up against? if so, why not just side them in?
I like your build, but not a fan of Bloodline Keeper. To each their own I guess. Always thought that card was a tad bit slow for vampires.
I'm currently testing them out, but this is what I have so far. Deck works rather well. Aggro's very nicely, but sometimes elves Elves become a problem. I don't have a place that is local for Legacy near me, or rather to my knowledge. I just
play with a few friends, and theory a lot of my choices. Let me know what you guys think.
How does Cabal Therapy work if you don't play spells that look at your opponents hand? Do you just guess once you know what you're up against? if so, why not just side them in?
I like your build, but not a fan of Bloodline Keeper. To each their own I guess. Always thought that card was a tad bit slow for vampires.
The trick to Cabal Therapy is not necessarily knowing what you are playing against (though that does help) but rather, knowing what loses you the game. When you cast Therapy you should always be naming the card that they most likely have that will lose you the game. Once you have seen their hand, you can start ripping it apart thanks to bloodghast and his synergy with therapy.
My version of the deck tries to be much more grindy, and a little slower than other lists. This is why I don't run strict lords of any kind. Keeper lets me out grind a lot of players by consistently producing threats.
The trick to Cabal Therapy is not necessarily knowing what you are playing against (though that does help) but rather, knowing what loses you the game. When you cast Therapy you should always be naming the card that they most likely have that will lose you the game. Once you have seen their hand, you can start ripping it apart thanks to bloodghast and his synergy with therapy.
My version of the deck tries to be much more grindy, and a little slower than other lists. This is why I don't run strict lords of any kind. Keeper lets me out grind a lot of players but consistently producing threats.
Which makes sense, especially with Malakir Bloodwitch in your deck. It has potential with Bloodline Keeper on the field. I'd like to try your build out to see how it holds against certain decks, however, I don't know if I would run Bloodline Keeper in my build. Do you think it can work with Vampire Nocturnus, or no? Also, how well do you do against deck like elves, goblins, merfolk, et cetera.
I have an idea. Instead of cards like smother, snuff out, and dismember for creature destruction, try Innocent Blood. It seems to have great synergy with Bloodghast, Kalastria Highborn, and the vampire tokens Bloodline Keeper poops out. Only problem is that it's a sorcery, but your build is grindy, so it fits the speed of the deck. If you have to sacrifice a token, or Bloodghast you can just get them back and you can do damage and gain life from it.
What do you get from Vampire Tribal over just running most of the same disruption and similar creatures (Nighthawk, Gatekeeper) along with other better stuff in The Gate?
What do you get from Vampire Tribal over just running most of the same disruption and similar creatures[/i] (Nighthawk, Gatekeeper) along with other better stuff in The Gate?
I think you're better off on the midrange plan. Pulse Tracker and Lacerator just seem like too low card quality if you're not playing the 24 2/2s for 1-mana deck, while Nighthawk and Gatekeeper are more conducive to a grindy strategy than an aggro strategy,
Fetches not only help with controlling Bloodghast recursion but they fuel DRS and change the top card for Nocturnus. So even without a green splash I think fetchlands may be worth it for you. Monoblack also has problems killing enchantments and artifacts or killing creatures through countermagic. Abrupt Decay splash shores up a lot of monoblack weaknesses. IMO it and DRS are worth a splash.
You can cut Dark Confidant if you want. But reality is that Bob and DRS are the best black creatures in the format, so it's hard not to run them. If you really want to run only Vampire creatures and no others then I'd consider something like this:
Again, fetches add value for Bloodghast recursion, Nocturnus top card changing as well as card filtering with SDT (which helps you assemble Depths-Hexmage and helps accomodate the fact you have no card draw). The synergy between Liliana and Bloodghast is amazing. And Lili gives you another angle of grind.
Word. These are good lists. The only problem is affording BOB, or Dark Depths. :/ How do you feel about B/R vampires? We get access to cards like Lightning Bolt, Terminate, Chain Lightning, and Olivia Voldaren. Also, has anyone ever done B/U Vampires? Treasure Cruise is a really good draw card and it would allow the player to play Gitaxian Probe. Splashing blue would give more synergy to Cabal Therapy.
Br sounds legit. Happy to see what you post. Only issue is that both red and black have some of the same shortcomings with removing permanents and interacting with the stack. But burn and Olivia are still nice.
Treasure Cruise is better in a spell-heavy deck than a creature deck with GY recursion. You won't be filling your GY as aggressively as them. I wouldn't splash just for Cruise, but Bu could be decent if you throw in Brainstorm and some counters?
Well, here is a rough draft of my B/R Vampire deck, but aside from Stromkirk Captain I lack a lord for this deck and need the room for it and Cabal Therapy. Not sure if I need another lord.
Love the Legacy Vamps. I used to play them quite a bit, and they were always better than expected. Now with "fair" creature decks around so much, it may be time to play them some more. I haven't played them in awhile but this is the last list I have. I'll dust it off and give it some play and let you know how it goes. I also have some B/R Vamps for modern that are pretty good. Maybe I'll try and see what I could do to bring them up to a Legacy standard.
- Vampire Nocturnus
- Urge to Feed
And yes, Nighthawk.
Although vampire nocturnus is quite good, its a four-drop in a deck with only 21 lands, not that many red cards, and no way to stack the top of its library except with fetches. Doesn't really seem worth it. The only way vampires works is in a sligh shell; the tribal synergy is generally worse than goblins, as are your lords. The colored mana costs are heavier and you need two colors so you can't play as an effective a mana denial package, and you don't have a goblin ringleader type creature. Playing for the long game doesn't seem viable with vamps.
BRWC Mardu Shops - Tymna and Akiri Artifacts BRWC
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/112/202/635201278392614256.jpg
I think it's fine, and you should leave the Dark Ritual's in. One thing I noticed about most aggro decks in legacy is that they swarm the field extremely fast, and the inclusion of Aether Vial makes them deadlier. If Vampires want to stand a chance against most aggro decks, then they need an accelerator themselves. Aether Vial, in my honest opinion, doesn't seems to fit as snugly as it does in Merfolk, Goblins, or Slivers. It's hard to make room in the deck. A lot of cards that are ran in Vampires are essential for the deck, so, I feel like Dark Ritual would be a perfect accelerator for the deck. Turn 1 Gatekeeper of Malakir/ Vampire Nighthawk, and Turn 2 Vampire Nocturnus is threatening. I see why you would want to make room for Dark Confidant because of vampires lack of draw power, but you slowly loose life and drawing into a Vampire Nighthawk, or Vampire Nocturnus would hurt too much. If you're looking for a stable draw engine try Sensei's Divining Top. It helps with bad top decks and you can stack your top card to be a Black card, which benefits if you were to have Vampire Nocturnus on the field. My deck is similar to this, but I've been thinking of switching to B/R Vampires, but the destruction isn't as good. I also seems slower due to Olivia Voldaren and having to use mana for our creature destruction outside of Gatekeeper of Malakir.
I wouldn't say their is no love for vampires but it's a less popular deck. Something only a few people probably play. There are many better black decks that utalize cards like Vampire Nighthgawk or Bloodghast. I think making a vampire deck would be an interesting one to make. I don't know if it could be competitve though. You would need the good discard spells like Cabal Therapy and Thoughtsieze. You would also probably need Sensi's Divining Top. Lastly you would need some card drawing engine and mostly likely that would mean playing something like Dark Confidant. If you are like me and trying to make things on a budget then you are gravitating towards something like Phyrexian Arena. Phyrexian Arena seems substandard compared to something like Dark Confidant.
I mean, I have a Vampire deck as a second deck for legacy, and to be honest it does well. It can keep up with Elves, if built right. It may not be as fast as Merfolk, or Elves, but it's still really good. A mono black aggro deck that has access to the best discard and destruction cards in the game. I've noticed Elves and Merfolk can usually win on turns 3-5. I've been testing Vampires for a while and they can win by turn 5-7. They're definitely slower by two turns, but with the amount of discard and creature destruction black has to offer one can easily keep up. There should be a primer for this tribe. I think this deck has a lot of potential and can be taken far in tournaments.
any reason why?
I run Undiscovered Paradises in my build. Synergy with Bloodghast, which leads to nice synergy with Viscera Seer and Cabal Therapy.
I want to tweek my build and try out Vampire Hexmage and Dark Depths. See what nasty things I can pull with that, and how consistent I can make it.
4 Bloodghast
3 Bloodline Keeper
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Kalastria Highborn
2 Malakir Bloodwitch
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Viscera Seer
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smother
2 Umezawa's Jitte
16 Swamp
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Undiscovered Paradise
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I'm currently testing them out, but this is what I have so far. Deck works rather well. Aggro's very nicely, but sometimes elves Elves become a problem. I don't have a place that is local for Legacy near me, or rather to my knowledge. I just
play with a few friends, and theory a lot of my choices. Let me know what you guys think.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/rondo-of-blood/
How does Cabal Therapy work if you don't play spells that look at your opponents hand? Do you just guess once you know what you're up against? if so, why not just side them in?
I like your build, but not a fan of Bloodline Keeper. To each their own I guess. Always thought that card was a tad bit slow for vampires.
The trick to Cabal Therapy is not necessarily knowing what you are playing against (though that does help) but rather, knowing what loses you the game. When you cast Therapy you should always be naming the card that they most likely have that will lose you the game. Once you have seen their hand, you can start ripping it apart thanks to bloodghast and his synergy with therapy.
My version of the deck tries to be much more grindy, and a little slower than other lists. This is why I don't run strict lords of any kind. Keeper lets me out grind a lot of players by consistently producing threats.
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Which makes sense, especially with Malakir Bloodwitch in your deck. It has potential with Bloodline Keeper on the field. I'd like to try your build out to see how it holds against certain decks, however, I don't know if I would run Bloodline Keeper in my build. Do you think it can work with Vampire Nocturnus, or no? Also, how well do you do against deck like elves, goblins, merfolk, et cetera.
I have an idea. Instead of cards like smother, snuff out, and dismember for creature destruction, try Innocent Blood. It seems to have great synergy with Bloodghast, Kalastria Highborn, and the vampire tokens Bloodline Keeper poops out. Only problem is that it's a sorcery, but your build is grindy, so it fits the speed of the deck. If you have to sacrifice a token, or Bloodghast you can just get them back and you can do damage and gain life from it.
4x Bloodghast
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Kalastria Highborn
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Vampire Nocturnus
4x Viscera Seer
4x Dark Ritual
4x Smother
Land (20)
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cabal Pit
16x Swamp
2x Undiscovered Paradise
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
Deck Link: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/rondo-of-blood/
New Build. Tell me what you guys think.
4x Bloodghast
3x Bloodline Keeper Flip
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Pulse Tracker
4x Vampire Lacerator
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
Land (20)
1x Cabal Pit
4x Cavern of Souls
15x Swamp
3x Smother
Artifact (2)
2x Umezawa's Jitte
Maybeboard (12)
4x Blood Artist
4x Dark Ritual
1x Malakir Bloodwitch
3x Vampire Nocturnus
Deck Link: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/rondo-of-blood/
Because I want to run the tribe?
I think you're better off on the midrange plan. Pulse Tracker and Lacerator just seem like too low card quality if you're not playing the 24 2/2s for 1-mana deck, while Nighthawk and Gatekeeper are more conducive to a grindy strategy than an aggro strategy,
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Go for the Throat
//Creatures: 23
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Bloodghast
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Vampire Nocturnus
2 Umezawa's Jitte
//Lands: 20
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
7 Swamp
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Kalastria Highborn
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Thoughtseize
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Abrupt Decay
Fetches not only help with controlling Bloodghast recursion but they fuel DRS and change the top card for Nocturnus. So even without a green splash I think fetchlands may be worth it for you. Monoblack also has problems killing enchantments and artifacts or killing creatures through countermagic. Abrupt Decay splash shores up a lot of monoblack weaknesses. IMO it and DRS are worth a splash.
You can cut Dark Confidant if you want. But reality is that Bob and DRS are the best black creatures in the format, so it's hard not to run them. If you really want to run only Vampire creatures and no others then I'd consider something like this:
3 Vampire Hexmage
3 Kalastria Highborn
4 Bloodghast
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Vampire Nocturnus
3 Liliana of the Veil
//Artifacts: 5
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte
//Spells: 13
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Go for the Throat
2 Dark Depths
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
4 Cavern of Souls
7 Swamp
Again, fetches add value for Bloodghast recursion, Nocturnus top card changing as well as card filtering with SDT (which helps you assemble Depths-Hexmage and helps accomodate the fact you have no card draw). The synergy between Liliana and Bloodghast is amazing. And Lili gives you another angle of grind.
Treasure Cruise is better in a spell-heavy deck than a creature deck with GY recursion. You won't be filling your GY as aggressively as them. I wouldn't splash just for Cruise, but Bu could be decent if you throw in Brainstorm and some counters?
4x Bloodghast
4x Pulse Tracker
4x Stromkirk Captain
4x Stromkirk Noble
4x Vampire Lacerator
4x Vampire Nighthawk
2x Umezawa's Jitte
Land (20)
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
4x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
4x Swamp
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Terminate
Sorcery (9)
2x Cabal Therapy
3x Duress
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
Maybeboard (7)
4x Blood Artist
1x Malakir Bloodwitch
2x Olivia Voldaren
Well, here is a rough draft of my B/R Vampire deck, but aside from Stromkirk Captain I lack a lord for this deck and need the room for it and Cabal Therapy. Not sure if I need another lord.
4 Vampire Nocturnus
4 Guul Draz Assassin
4 Bloodghast
2 Kalastria Highborn
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
1 Mirri the Cursed
4 Dark Ritual
2 Spinning Darkness
4 Thoughtseize
2 Dismember
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
8 Swamp
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Extirpate
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Dismember
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage