I dropped down to 18 because of the manawefts, but maybe running 19 or 20 is correct with the manawefts instead. The sliver hives aren't there because I want to minimize how often i'll get mana-screwed for sylvan library or collected company. I really don't think a bant list needs the added fixing of sliver hive at all (at the cost of being unable to cast Sideboard cards and mainboard sylvan library/collected company)
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Modern: C Serum Eldrazi Legacy: CEldrazi C Mud W Soldier Stompy R Bread (big red stompy) WU Spirit Blade WUG Meat Hooks WUBGR Blue Dredge
So after a a month of being unable to play legacy (due to exams), I've finally been able to test out the deck I posted earlier, last night with a few minor tweaks, here's the list:
0-2 vs BR Reanimator (lost game 1 on turn 1, game 2 on turn 2, unmask destroyed me before they went off)
2-1 vs ANT (ethersworn canonist won me both my games, landed it on turn 3 and turn 2 respectively)
2-1 vs Vial Smasher (won one of my games after my opponent tapped out to drop EE on 2, which I then played harmonic sliver after to steal the game)
2-1 vs Jeskai Stoneblade (this was a tough match up, my 1 loss was due to drawing my crystalline sliver the turn after he 1 for 1 removed 4 slivers the turn prior, and lost tempo from there from a batterskull with jitte on it, BOTH of my wins were due to EoT [[collected company]], one of which was after he exploded an EE to wipe my board, I was able to swing back for lethal)
Something to note is that in nearly all my games, I won due to crystalline sliver. I almost always had turn 1 vial, but it also almost always ate an abrupt decay, which I'm completely O.K. with since my lords stayed alive.
In terms of how I piloted the deck, I tended to err on the side of caution, foregoing a turn 1 galerider to just land-go since I knew it was going to eat removal (if I had a turn 2 crystalline sliver in hand). I definitely played a lot safer than usual, and it ended up rewarding me in terms of win %. I didn't go for any turn 4 aggro wins, but really just to win mid-game. I only played aggressively against storm since the race is all that mattered and they don't bother using removal on slivers.
Now for Some breakdown on the cards that I did like, and those that I didn't:
Manaweft sliver was an all-star last night, which impressed me more than I thought it would. Although, I didn't get a chance to use it to cast my Coco, he was an easy sliver to swing into a baleful strix with since I really didn't mind losing it (as a 3/3 or 4/4 due to lords). Also, a turn 2 manaweft sliver can cause some misplays on the opponent's behalf, sometimes they jump to remove it (while my hand of lords stay safe), or they don't, allowing me to drop 2-3 lords the next turn (if i had vial out turn 2). I often chose to play manaweft on turn 2 over any lord, only prioritizing a turn 2 crystalline sliver over it. It was also good to know that I wasn't as dependent on drawing a land if I had one in my hand, so keeping a 1 lander and vial felt way less sketchy (although vial always ate a turn 2 decay).
venom sliver was lackluster all night, but this might've been due to playing match ups where the card doesn't shine. I managed to get it out at one point with talon sliver against the jeskai stoneblade deck, but since I didn't have crystalline/diffusion sliver out to protect them it almost didn't matter anyways. It felt cute but not great. It did however stall a batterskull for 1 or 2 turns, but I ended up losing the game afterwards anyways. After seeing last nights performance with them, I think I'll be dropping them for sidewinder slivers since they seem a lot better against baleful strixs and early snapcaster blocks (snapcaster was super annoying since it'll flash in and block my 2/2 lord).
collected company never came up in the first 3 match ups. I either didn't draw it, won without casting it, or lost super hard with the card in my hand (before turn 4). I never felt that I didn't have enough mana for it which was great!! It won both of my games against stoneblade which blew them out of the water. I won after they spent all their resources clearing my board state, only to recover right after they did and swing for lethal the turn after. It was amazing. The issue of it getting countered didn't really come up (all of them resolved), since they either exhausted their counters for vial or early lords, or they boarded them out incorrectly because they saw cavern but not coco in the early rounds, or I protected it with FoW. That being said, please remember that the sample size of casting a coco was n = 2. I got to live the dream of swinging in with a single crystalline on board, only to have my opponent respond by flash-blocking with a snapcaster, to be met with a coco that ripped 2 lords off the top 6, allowing me to win combat. I followed up the turn after with a second coco to swing in for lethal (like 13 damage or so).
Got my first run in Legacy in last night at an FNM going 1-3. Not as terrible as I expected to play. The list I ran definitely needs work, its going to take a while to feel comfortable with it.
Matchups:
Round 1: 0-2 vs Eureka/natural order
Round 2: 2-1 vs Grixis Delver
Round 3: 0-2 vs Dredge
Round 4: 1-2 vs Reanimator
The story of the night was mostly that I had no idea what I was playing against and taking lumps for not knowing. Now that I've got a little more knowledge of what it out there, I look forward to playing again.
I am more then willing to change the list to something similar if it will work more on this current metagame. I think this was more for miracles, so something might be better in this different metagame. I would be interested to hear your suggestions. My proposal is changing out 2 Striking Slivers for Smuggler's Copter. I would also be considered adding some Manaweft/Gemhide Slivers and some larger ones like Blur or Necrotic that do well in the modern slivers deck. I am also thinking a Sidewinder or two might be good against all the true name nemesis out there.
x-post with the other legacy sliver deck here and mtgthesource
Slivers and Merfolk are similiar, but also have stark differences that make them better against different decks. Slivers seems to be better against fair decks than Merfolk and Merfolk seem to be better at unfair decks due to the better force of will shell. I have seen Sliver lists similiar to mine run Force of Will as well.
I don't have Forces, but I do have the cards here.
Merfolk has better tempo, more reliable combos, better/more efficient counters, and hits harder faster. Sliver decks are more inconsistent and easier to control by nature. Sure slivers are more diverse, but only with the right sides and some lucky draws can you even utilize their diversity. Even then, though, they are not as tempo efficient as merfolks. Countersliver is best sliver Deck, but merfolk has built in counter dynamics. Also, diverse decks don't win tough games. You have to take a risk in the end.
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My Decks
Modern
-Merfolk
Legacy
-Infect
-The Rack
-Living End
-Goblin Chain
-Illusions
I am not sure faster is actually correct. Slivers is pretty fast or has the same curve as Merfolk.
I am not saying Merfolk is bad, but they have their benefits and detriments and there are reasons that neither is really played at the top end. Merfolk might be better, but there are other options. Slivers including my version of Slivers has their benefits and weaknesses just like Merfolk. I do believe Merfolk is probably better against the field soley due to being in blue which is the best color in legacy.
All-In Slivers though is pretty good against fair decks and much weaker against unfair decks. The sheer amount and variety of key words including Shroud, Flanking, Flying can overcome some of the obstacles that Merfolk may face such as Targetted removal that Slivers doesn't care all that much about.
My version has prison, taxes, and hatebears to deal with combo and is ADMITTEDLY weaker against it than Merfolk.
My version is also cheaper and I have the cards. I don't have the Forces, Flusterstorm, or True Name Nemesis. I can play this deck, so I want to make it the best deck I can play.
So, I ask you. Can you not threadcrap with your thoughts and try to make it the best deck? At this point, you are just trolling.
Interesting point of view. I don't generally approve of people calling someone's intelligent thoughts crap, but I understand why you're upset. I am not however trolling, just presenting an alternative point of view, which allows anybody interested in Tribal Synergy decks the opportunity to explore Merfolk decks, as oppose to sliver decks, to see which they prefer. I think some people might benefit from this.
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My Decks
Modern
-Merfolk
Legacy
-Infect
-The Rack
-Living End
-Goblin Chain
-Illusions
Sure, and they can visit the Merfolk Legacy forums. This is the Legacy SLIVER forums for discussing SLIVERS and not for discussing MERFOLK.
It is a different deck that offers different strengths and weaknesses. It may be better, it may not be. As for courtesy, you don't generally go into other threats and promote other decks in those forums. It is rude and generally considered trolling and threadcrapping.
We are here to discuss Slivers and how to make slivers better and more competitive especially between the 2 different sliver builds Counter Sliver and All-In Sliver.
Do you have constructive input on how to do this rather than say Merfolk is "better"? I am respectfully asking you to contribute meaningfully to the conversation. How can we make Slivers Stronger Together! I know there are people working on making Merfolk Great Again. I pay some attention to for example Nikachu's Legacy content.
If they wanted Legacy Merfolk, it is a far more known deck with a lot more information out there than Legacy Slivers.
Thank you for contribution that Legacy Merfolk has advantages compared to various versions of Legacy Slivers. I still believe though that Slivers has advantages over Merfolk, but it is also the deck that I have and will continue to play.
I am interested in making Slivers better, not playing Merfolk which is a different albeit viable and more played deck.
Do you have meaningful constructive criticism on how I can achieve that with the All-In Sliver lists? I am looking to buy into this at MTGO with Unclaimed Territory replacing Ancient Ziggurat.
Sure, and they can visit the Merfolk Legacy forums. This is the Legacy SLIVER forums for discussing SLIVERS and not for discussing MERFOLK.
It is a different deck that offers different strengths and weaknesses. It may be better, it may not be. As for courtesy, you don't generally go into other threats and promote other decks in those forums. It is rude and generally considered trolling and threadcrapping.
We are here to discuss Slivers and how to make slivers better and more competitive especially between the 2 different sliver builds Counter Sliver and All-In Sliver.
Do you have constructive input on how to do this rather than say Merfolk is "better"? I am respectfully asking you to contribute meaningfully to the conversation. How can we make Slivers Stronger Together! I know there are people working on making Merfolk Great Again. I pay some attention to for example Nikachu's Legacy content.
If they wanted Legacy Merfolk, it is a far more known deck with a lot more information out there than Legacy Slivers.
Thank you for contribution that Legacy Merfolk has advantages compared to various versions of Legacy Slivers. I still believe though that Slivers has advantages over Merfolk, but it is also the deck that I have and will continue to play.
I am interested in making Slivers better, not playing Merfolk which is a different albeit viable and more played deck.
Do you have meaningful constructive criticism on how I can achieve that with the All-In Sliver lists? I am looking to buy into this at MTGO with Unclaimed Territory replacing Ancient Ziggurat.
Clearly, n00bZzzz was explaining one of the fundamental tools anyone can use to improve any deck, and that is to ask ourselves if there are any decks similar to ours, if they're better/worse in some ways, and to evaluate what about each of those decks makes it unique. The two decks are similar in many ways, so other than the monetary differences, what makes Slivers the deck to play over Merfolk? Once we know the decks strsngths, we know how to play those unique advantages optimally. We can ask if some of the ideas are something that would also work in Merfolk, and if so, why haven't they tried them yet? Sometimes other decks have had similar ideas playtested ad nauseum, so we can apply that accumulated information here to save us time. Clearly what you're asking for are more non-sliver card ideas to include (because the alternative could be searched up pretty easily), so you should begin by looking at other, similar decks, and see what they're playing, and if it would work for you.
This seems so basic I feel like I'm coming across as patronizing when I explain it, but I assure you that is not my intention.
It wasn't my read on Noobz. Noobz to me was in fact saying that Merfolk is better than Slivers in nearly every way, why don't people who want to play Tribal Synergies deck play Merfolk.
Sure, by my version of slivers sideboard for example ie. Hatebears and Artifacts are different from Merfolk's sideboard of Blue spells, Artifacts (of which some are Equipment), and creatures most likely merfolk or blue.
I am not looking to play Merfolk. I am looking to play Slivers. I am looking to make the best possible deck I can with the tools that I have or could reasonably purchase at this time.
I am not looking to play Merfolk. I am looking to play Slivers. I am looking to make the best possible deck I can with the tools that I have or could reasonably purchase at this time.
You and me both. I've been slinging Meat Hooks for over 10 years now, not because I need necessarily feel it is the best decision in the format, but because I love the lore of Slivers, and I won't stop until I'm dead. I've spent quite a bit of time piloting other tribal decks so I can improve Slivers, and I feel piloting Merfolk for a while made me a better Meat Hook pilot because I kept trying to pilot Slivers too much like Merfolk, and it wasn't until I played Merfolk that I realized it. They're very similar decks with similar lines of play, but they're different decks that should be played differently.
Cross-posting from the source to get more opinions. I think that from a fundamental/architectural level, Legacy sliver decks have two problems. While I talk about other decks like Merfolk below, the point is to identify the reasons why Slivers isn't competitive. You can beat around the bush all day talking about builds and cards, but unless you're actually identifying problems, there's little possibility of making actual improvements.
The problem with Slivers is twofold. First, card advantage. You need at least 3 slivers, and ideally 4-5 to make a really credible threat. However, that hypothetical 5-sliver army is easily 5-for-1'd with a Toxic Deluge, Terminus, Ensnaring Bridge, Engineered Explosives, etc.
Not only that, but because you need critical mass on the field, you need critical mass in the deck. That means that for beef/power you're "wasting" 12 slots to Lords, whereas another deck can use just 4 slots on Anglers, Tarmogoyfs, Mentors, etc. and have remaining design space for disruption (countermagic/removal/etc.) and library manipulation (draw/cantrips/tutors). Merfolk has Lords, but their Lords also allow them to landwalk the most popular color in the format. That's "free" evasion for which we'd need an entire other card (Galerider). See the pattern? More deck space taken up. More overextension onto the board.
Second, the manabase. Using more colors trades greediness for power. You're more easily disrupted with nonbasic hate, but you can make use of the best cards that your colors have to offer. However, there are so many critical colorless land like Cavern and Mutavault that the rest of the manabase cannot reliably support casting both colored spells and colored creatures. This is the reason for the recent uptick in "all-in" slivers, which is effectively kitchen table tribal: you take a pile of slivers, and a pile of land, smash them together and hope for the best. Compare to Merfolk, where they can actually run 10 or more basic Islands to cast their non-Merfolk spells. Ironically, while the point of going multicolor is to make use of the colors' best spells, it's the single color deck which is better able to actually consistently cast its non-creature spells.
So, what can Wizards do to help Legacy slivers? Well, they can't print a sliver that fixes the fundamental manabase problems, and I bet they won't print slivers that have multiple roles, the way Lord of Atlantis has the multiple roles of granting pump and evasion.
If they printed Deathrite Sliver, a 1/2 which casts for G or B and gave all slivers the abilities of Deathrite Shaman, that could actually help both of the problems above. Good luck with that.
R1 - W Eldrazi 2-0
G1 - Pretty straight forward, got a crystalline down turn 2 with cavern and a tundra, then when on to land a 3 lords on the next turns, he misplayed trying to go with a TKS with a a eye and 2 plains, got a warning out of that but he saw my hand, couldn't play it and gone for a displacer, 2 attacks and he was down.
G2 - Same start as game 1, got a Crystalline down, this time he opened with mimic into TKS, down 14 (did a fetch) got 1 lord, next turn, he attacks with TKS and pass, then third lord and he plays a smasher but doesn't attack since I can trade him and he as 2 cards in hand, top deck a gale rider and beat for the win.
R2 - Colorless Eldrazi 1-2
G1 - He starts off with mimic into a reshaper, I go with mana into lord, drops another mimic and is stuck a a sol land a colorless one, i drop crystalline and 2 lords, he drops land and a TKS and I have nothing in hand, beats me, he is down to 18 from sol land, I topped a galerder, beat him to down to 13, and hold a few back to block, another lord and swing for the win.
G2 - he goes mimic, mimic, TKS, I had Crystalline into lord, can't gold the pressure.
G3 - last game I have 1 color land and 2 mutavaults, but I have managed, so I go for it, and play 1 lord, not drawing any lands I go for shard less and clear some lands from the top, got a few lords, and start drawing lands, no cavern, he plays a chalice, into 2 micros and later a reshaper, we trade some with the mimics, he drops TKS into smasher I phantasmal the smasher and don't draw gas, we trade TKS and smasher with lord and phantasmal, I keep 3 sliver in board he drops unless one for 6 pass, I draw land pass and he goes all is dust, and all is dust...
R3 - Grixis Delver 2-0
G1 - 2 delvers, no flips I play lord into crystalline, he can't do anything, I beat him down.
G2 - 4 delvers and no flips, he goes DRS, I have crystalline and lords, he can't take it.
R4 - Lands 2-0
G1 - He goes with land and mox into gamble for loam, gets a tabernacle on turn 4. and a thespian stage on turn 5, I go lord manaweft and 2 mutavaults and beat him while paying for lord and manaweft, got 2 other lands to beat him, he goes for crop to dark depth I FoW, he 2 more attacks he is dead.
G2 - he goes mox,mox and tabernacle, and gambles for something (no idea), he discarded a dark depths and a maze, I played vial into needle naming thespian, into a lord and a manaweft have 1 mutavault, he gambles twice and doesn't hit the discard he needed, can only generate 2 mana, no mana lands, he destroys my needle and then goes for crop for depths to combo, I FoW and beat for the win.
R5 - Leovold stoneblade 2-0
G1 - He goes land, I go cavern, he goes baleful strix, I go crystalline sliver and he draws a StP, I go lord lord, he get fire and ice, I trade strix on mutavault 1 of 2, he drops TNN, game goes into lock since I can kill on a swing even with a block, he equipes TNN, I draw galerider and swing for the win.
G2 - He drops stoneforge, I drop crystalline, and lord, he passes with mana open, I attack he chumps and drops a fire and ice (his mistake should've gotten batter skull), he drops a strix and I attack with mutavaults he doesn't block, goes don't go for the race, I drop 2 more lords, and beat him out.
R6 - ID into top 8
Top 8 - Mono Red Prison 1-2
G1 - He goes blood sun I need to find a forest, he drops spyglass and names aethervial, I find my source, drop manaweft, gale rider, he drops 2 bridges but still have 4 cards in hand, I drop crystalline into lord, and beat him down, he was taking 2 a drop because of Tomb.
G2 - he goes blood moon, into Chandra torch of defiance, I have crystalline and lord, when was gonna go for harmonic he drops fiery confluence, and wins
G3 - he goes spyglass for aether vial, after I drop vial, and then blood moon I already have a forest in play, he drops Chandra, I go managed into harmonic and galerider, he drops blood sun and attempts a fiery confluence which I FoW, he drops blood sun and pass, I swing to kill Chandra, he drops pyromancer and bridge, I don't have any drops, and pass he gets another confluence and wins.
Conclusion:
Pretty happy with the deck, just a few changes to sideboard since I'm missing some cards, but pretty happy.
C Serum Eldrazi
Legacy:
C Eldrazi
C Mud
W Soldier Stompy
R Bread (big red stompy)
WU Spirit Blade
WUG Meat Hooks
WUBGR Blue Dredge
4x Crystalline Sliver
1x Diffusion Sliver
4x Galerider Sliver
3x Manaweft Sliver
3x Muscle Sliver
4x Predatory Sliver
4x Sinew Sliver
1x Talon Sliver
3x Venom Sliver
1x Winged Sliver
4x Cavern of Souls
1x Forest
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Mutavault
3x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
1x Polluted Delta
Instant (7)
3x Collected Company
4x Force of Will
Enchantment (1)
1x Sylvan Library
4x Aether Vial
2x Containment Priest
2x Harmonic Sliver
3x Rest in Peace
1x Path to Exile
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Back to Basics
1x Azorius Charm
I went 3-1 last night:
0-2 vs BR Reanimator (lost game 1 on turn 1, game 2 on turn 2, unmask destroyed me before they went off)
2-1 vs ANT (ethersworn canonist won me both my games, landed it on turn 3 and turn 2 respectively)
2-1 vs Vial Smasher (won one of my games after my opponent tapped out to drop EE on 2, which I then played harmonic sliver after to steal the game)
2-1 vs Jeskai Stoneblade (this was a tough match up, my 1 loss was due to drawing my crystalline sliver the turn after he 1 for 1 removed 4 slivers the turn prior, and lost tempo from there from a batterskull with jitte on it, BOTH of my wins were due to EoT [[collected company]], one of which was after he exploded an EE to wipe my board, I was able to swing back for lethal)
Something to note is that in nearly all my games, I won due to crystalline sliver. I almost always had turn 1 vial, but it also almost always ate an abrupt decay, which I'm completely O.K. with since my lords stayed alive.
In terms of how I piloted the deck, I tended to err on the side of caution, foregoing a turn 1 galerider to just land-go since I knew it was going to eat removal (if I had a turn 2 crystalline sliver in hand). I definitely played a lot safer than usual, and it ended up rewarding me in terms of win %. I didn't go for any turn 4 aggro wins, but really just to win mid-game. I only played aggressively against storm since the race is all that mattered and they don't bother using removal on slivers.
Now for Some breakdown on the cards that I did like, and those that I didn't:
Manaweft sliver was an all-star last night, which impressed me more than I thought it would. Although, I didn't get a chance to use it to cast my Coco, he was an easy sliver to swing into a baleful strix with since I really didn't mind losing it (as a 3/3 or 4/4 due to lords). Also, a turn 2 manaweft sliver can cause some misplays on the opponent's behalf, sometimes they jump to remove it (while my hand of lords stay safe), or they don't, allowing me to drop 2-3 lords the next turn (if i had vial out turn 2). I often chose to play manaweft on turn 2 over any lord, only prioritizing a turn 2 crystalline sliver over it. It was also good to know that I wasn't as dependent on drawing a land if I had one in my hand, so keeping a 1 lander and vial felt way less sketchy (although vial always ate a turn 2 decay).
venom sliver was lackluster all night, but this might've been due to playing match ups where the card doesn't shine. I managed to get it out at one point with talon sliver against the jeskai stoneblade deck, but since I didn't have crystalline/diffusion sliver out to protect them it almost didn't matter anyways. It felt cute but not great. It did however stall a batterskull for 1 or 2 turns, but I ended up losing the game afterwards anyways. After seeing last nights performance with them, I think I'll be dropping them for sidewinder slivers since they seem a lot better against baleful strixs and early snapcaster blocks (snapcaster was super annoying since it'll flash in and block my 2/2 lord).
collected company never came up in the first 3 match ups. I either didn't draw it, won without casting it, or lost super hard with the card in my hand (before turn 4). I never felt that I didn't have enough mana for it which was great!! It won both of my games against stoneblade which blew them out of the water. I won after they spent all their resources clearing my board state, only to recover right after they did and swing for lethal the turn after. It was amazing. The issue of it getting countered didn't really come up (all of them resolved), since they either exhausted their counters for vial or early lords, or they boarded them out incorrectly because they saw cavern but not coco in the early rounds, or I protected it with FoW. That being said, please remember that the sample size of casting a coco was n = 2. I got to live the dream of swinging in with a single crystalline on board, only to have my opponent respond by flash-blocking with a snapcaster, to be met with a coco that ripped 2 lords off the top 6, allowing me to win combat. I followed up the turn after with a second coco to swing in for lethal (like 13 damage or so).
Edited for formatting
C Serum Eldrazi
Legacy:
C Eldrazi
C Mud
W Soldier Stompy
R Bread (big red stompy)
WU Spirit Blade
WUG Meat Hooks
WUBGR Blue Dredge
Matchups:
Round 1: 0-2 vs Eureka/natural order
Round 2: 2-1 vs Grixis Delver
Round 3: 0-2 vs Dredge
Round 4: 1-2 vs Reanimator
The story of the night was mostly that I had no idea what I was playing against and taking lumps for not knowing. Now that I've got a little more knowledge of what it out there, I look forward to playing again.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-06-17-meathooks/
WUBRGCoco/Vial Slivers
WUBRGSlivers of the Void
Pioneer
WUBRGCoco Slivers
Legacy
WUBRGAll in Slivers
WUBRGCoco/Vial Slivers
WUBRGSlivers of the Void
Pioneer
WUBRGCoco Slivers
Legacy
WUBRGAll in Slivers
I have asked previously about all-in slivers and now I am asking about Smuggler's Copter in all-in slivers.
A sample proposed list
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Sliver Hive
4x Mutavault
4x Mana Confluence
3x Ancient Ziggurat
2x Chrome Mox
2x Chalice of the Void
4x Aether Vial
4x Galerider Sliver
4x Striking Sliver
4x Crystalline Sliver
3x Hibernation Sliver
4x Muscle Sliver
4x Sinew Sliver
4x Predatory Sliver
2x Venom
1x Winged Sliver
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Sideboard
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Containment Priest
2x Darkheart Sliver
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Harmonic Sliver
1x Necrotic Sliver
2x Meddling Mage
1x Pithing Needle
I am more then willing to change the list to something similar if it will work more on this current metagame. I think this was more for miracles, so something might be better in this different metagame. I would be interested to hear your suggestions. My proposal is changing out 2 Striking Slivers for Smuggler's Copter. I would also be considered adding some Manaweft/Gemhide Slivers and some larger ones like Blur or Necrotic that do well in the modern slivers deck. I am also thinking a Sidewinder or two might be good against all the true name nemesis out there.
x-post with the other legacy sliver deck here and mtgthesource
Modern
-Merfolk
Legacy
-Infect
-The Rack
-Living End
-Goblin Chain
-Illusions
Slivers and Merfolk are similiar, but also have stark differences that make them better against different decks. Slivers seems to be better against fair decks than Merfolk and Merfolk seem to be better at unfair decks due to the better force of will shell. I have seen Sliver lists similiar to mine run Force of Will as well.
I don't have Forces, but I do have the cards here.
Modern
-Merfolk
Legacy
-Infect
-The Rack
-Living End
-Goblin Chain
-Illusions
I am not saying Merfolk is bad, but they have their benefits and detriments and there are reasons that neither is really played at the top end. Merfolk might be better, but there are other options. Slivers including my version of Slivers has their benefits and weaknesses just like Merfolk. I do believe Merfolk is probably better against the field soley due to being in blue which is the best color in legacy.
All-In Slivers though is pretty good against fair decks and much weaker against unfair decks. The sheer amount and variety of key words including Shroud, Flanking, Flying can overcome some of the obstacles that Merfolk may face such as Targetted removal that Slivers doesn't care all that much about.
My version has prison, taxes, and hatebears to deal with combo and is ADMITTEDLY weaker against it than Merfolk.
My version is also cheaper and I have the cards. I don't have the Forces, Flusterstorm, or True Name Nemesis. I can play this deck, so I want to make it the best deck I can play.
So, I ask you. Can you not threadcrap with your thoughts and try to make it the best deck? At this point, you are just trolling.
Modern
-Merfolk
Legacy
-Infect
-The Rack
-Living End
-Goblin Chain
-Illusions
It is a different deck that offers different strengths and weaknesses. It may be better, it may not be. As for courtesy, you don't generally go into other threats and promote other decks in those forums. It is rude and generally considered trolling and threadcrapping.
We are here to discuss Slivers and how to make slivers better and more competitive especially between the 2 different sliver builds Counter Sliver and All-In Sliver.
Do you have constructive input on how to do this rather than say Merfolk is "better"? I am respectfully asking you to contribute meaningfully to the conversation. How can we make Slivers Stronger Together! I know there are people working on making Merfolk Great Again. I pay some attention to for example Nikachu's Legacy content.
If they wanted Legacy Merfolk, it is a far more known deck with a lot more information out there than Legacy Slivers.
Thank you for contribution that Legacy Merfolk has advantages compared to various versions of Legacy Slivers. I still believe though that Slivers has advantages over Merfolk, but it is also the deck that I have and will continue to play.
I am interested in making Slivers better, not playing Merfolk which is a different albeit viable and more played deck.
Do you have meaningful constructive criticism on how I can achieve that with the All-In Sliver lists? I am looking to buy into this at MTGO with Unclaimed Territory replacing Ancient Ziggurat.
Clearly, n00bZzzz was explaining one of the fundamental tools anyone can use to improve any deck, and that is to ask ourselves if there are any decks similar to ours, if they're better/worse in some ways, and to evaluate what about each of those decks makes it unique. The two decks are similar in many ways, so other than the monetary differences, what makes Slivers the deck to play over Merfolk? Once we know the decks strsngths, we know how to play those unique advantages optimally. We can ask if some of the ideas are something that would also work in Merfolk, and if so, why haven't they tried them yet? Sometimes other decks have had similar ideas playtested ad nauseum, so we can apply that accumulated information here to save us time. Clearly what you're asking for are more non-sliver card ideas to include (because the alternative could be searched up pretty easily), so you should begin by looking at other, similar decks, and see what they're playing, and if it would work for you.
This seems so basic I feel like I'm coming across as patronizing when I explain it, but I assure you that is not my intention.
WGDeath & TaxesGW
UWSpiritsWU
Sure, by my version of slivers sideboard for example ie. Hatebears and Artifacts are different from Merfolk's sideboard of Blue spells, Artifacts (of which some are Equipment), and creatures most likely merfolk or blue.
I am not looking to play Merfolk. I am looking to play Slivers. I am looking to make the best possible deck I can with the tools that I have or could reasonably purchase at this time.
4 Sliver Hive
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Mutavault
1 Gemstone Cavern
2 Mana Confluence
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Striking Sliver
2 Sidewinder Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
1 Venom Sliver
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Chrome Mox
2 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Darkheart Sliver
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Warping Wail
1 Containment Priest
1 Venom Sliver
You and me both. I've been slinging Meat Hooks for over 10 years now, not because I need necessarily feel it is the best decision in the format, but because I love the lore of Slivers, and I won't stop until I'm dead. I've spent quite a bit of time piloting other tribal decks so I can improve Slivers, and I feel piloting Merfolk for a while made me a better Meat Hook pilot because I kept trying to pilot Slivers too much like Merfolk, and it wasn't until I played Merfolk that I realized it. They're very similar decks with similar lines of play, but they're different decks that should be played differently.
Slivers for life.
WGDeath & TaxesGW
UWSpiritsWU
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
3 Manaweft Sliver
1 Gemhide Sliver
2 Phantasmal Image
1 Shardless Agent
4 Aether Vial
Spells
4 Force of Will
Enchantments
2 Sylvan Library
Lands
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundras
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pithing Needle
2 Containment Priest
1 Quick Sliver
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Rest in Peace
1 Darkheart Sliver
1 Golgari Amulet
6 Rounds:
R1 - W Eldrazi 2-0
G1 - Pretty straight forward, got a crystalline down turn 2 with cavern and a tundra, then when on to land a 3 lords on the next turns, he misplayed trying to go with a TKS with a a eye and 2 plains, got a warning out of that but he saw my hand, couldn't play it and gone for a displacer, 2 attacks and he was down.
G2 - Same start as game 1, got a Crystalline down, this time he opened with mimic into TKS, down 14 (did a fetch) got 1 lord, next turn, he attacks with TKS and pass, then third lord and he plays a smasher but doesn't attack since I can trade him and he as 2 cards in hand, top deck a gale rider and beat for the win.
R2 - Colorless Eldrazi 1-2
G1 - He starts off with mimic into a reshaper, I go with mana into lord, drops another mimic and is stuck a a sol land a colorless one, i drop crystalline and 2 lords, he drops land and a TKS and I have nothing in hand, beats me, he is down to 18 from sol land, I topped a galerder, beat him to down to 13, and hold a few back to block, another lord and swing for the win.
G2 - he goes mimic, mimic, TKS, I had Crystalline into lord, can't gold the pressure.
G3 - last game I have 1 color land and 2 mutavaults, but I have managed, so I go for it, and play 1 lord, not drawing any lands I go for shard less and clear some lands from the top, got a few lords, and start drawing lands, no cavern, he plays a chalice, into 2 micros and later a reshaper, we trade some with the mimics, he drops TKS into smasher I phantasmal the smasher and don't draw gas, we trade TKS and smasher with lord and phantasmal, I keep 3 sliver in board he drops unless one for 6 pass, I draw land pass and he goes all is dust, and all is dust...
R3 - Grixis Delver 2-0
G1 - 2 delvers, no flips I play lord into crystalline, he can't do anything, I beat him down.
G2 - 4 delvers and no flips, he goes DRS, I have crystalline and lords, he can't take it.
R4 - Lands 2-0
G1 - He goes with land and mox into gamble for loam, gets a tabernacle on turn 4. and a thespian stage on turn 5, I go lord manaweft and 2 mutavaults and beat him while paying for lord and manaweft, got 2 other lands to beat him, he goes for crop to dark depth I FoW, he 2 more attacks he is dead.
G2 - he goes mox,mox and tabernacle, and gambles for something (no idea), he discarded a dark depths and a maze, I played vial into needle naming thespian, into a lord and a manaweft have 1 mutavault, he gambles twice and doesn't hit the discard he needed, can only generate 2 mana, no mana lands, he destroys my needle and then goes for crop for depths to combo, I FoW and beat for the win.
R5 - Leovold stoneblade 2-0
G1 - He goes land, I go cavern, he goes baleful strix, I go crystalline sliver and he draws a StP, I go lord lord, he get fire and ice, I trade strix on mutavault 1 of 2, he drops TNN, game goes into lock since I can kill on a swing even with a block, he equipes TNN, I draw galerider and swing for the win.
G2 - He drops stoneforge, I drop crystalline, and lord, he passes with mana open, I attack he chumps and drops a fire and ice (his mistake should've gotten batter skull), he drops a strix and I attack with mutavaults he doesn't block, goes don't go for the race, I drop 2 more lords, and beat him out.
R6 - ID into top 8
Top 8 - Mono Red Prison 1-2
G1 - He goes blood sun I need to find a forest, he drops spyglass and names aethervial, I find my source, drop manaweft, gale rider, he drops 2 bridges but still have 4 cards in hand, I drop crystalline into lord, and beat him down, he was taking 2 a drop because of Tomb.
G2 - he goes blood moon, into Chandra torch of defiance, I have crystalline and lord, when was gonna go for harmonic he drops fiery confluence, and wins
G3 - he goes spyglass for aether vial, after I drop vial, and then blood moon I already have a forest in play, he drops Chandra, I go managed into harmonic and galerider, he drops blood sun and attempts a fiery confluence which I FoW, he drops blood sun and pass, I swing to kill Chandra, he drops pyromancer and bridge, I don't have any drops, and pass he gets another confluence and wins.
Conclusion:
Pretty happy with the deck, just a few changes to sideboard since I'm missing some cards, but pretty happy.
WUBRGCoco/Vial Slivers
WUBRGSlivers of the Void
Pioneer
WUBRGCoco Slivers
Legacy
WUBRGAll in Slivers