Hello i played no pitting needle because i don't have one.
now to the 5C-deck
ok the Sliver Legion isn't needed in the deck
i think 12 Pump sliver are very good because there are too many fat creatures (nacatl Tarmo..) ans with 1/5 Pump sliver you always had one when needed.
The regeneration effect is good here because i have 8 fetch lands and so i dont want to use the Hibernation effect (i will use it only when mass removal appears) and the regeneration effect is much cheaper.
Ponder is in the deck to get the chance to see 4 Cards to fix my mana better.
i think i put the winged and stifle in the side board.
With the amount of things Pithing Needle shuts off that are mainstays in the environment, it's something that you really should consider investing in. Selling even one of your duals could get you almost a playset, if not a complete one. In the long run, it's going to pay off far more then any other card you could invest in right now, especially if you're trying ot make your deck better.
Honestly though, you shouldn't be needing 12 pump Slivers. Yeah, Goyfs and big threats hurt, but you should be holding your StPs and counters for these spells, since they're the ones that are going to be hurting your deck the most. Hibernation Sliver helps a lot in these situations since you can block a big creature with two or three smaller ones, put the damage on the stack, bounce them all for "free", and then replay them via Vials and hardcasting. Regenerating them off of a Sedge means needing to leave even more lands open, which isn't going to be helping you at all when you hit midgame and are looking for ways to get the last few Slivers out. Sure, it may seem a bit steep using Hibernation for two or three activations and taking 4 or 6 damage, but it's gaining you card advantage, which is critical in this format, since you're removing a creature and keeping yours.
Another issue about Sedge Sliver is that it costs 3cmc to play, which throws off your Vials since every other creature is 2cmc in the 5 colour list. Not to mention it's also red, which ends up putting a huge strain on your landbase, which is shaky at 4 colours already. even if you're trying to curve out at 3, fetching for things like Volcanic Island and Bayou are adversly effecting your deck since the bulk of spells are white and blue. If you must run red (which again, I will go on record saying that it's a terrible idea and you shouldn't), I'd try running a land base like this:
This way, at least with your fetches you can always find a blue or white dual. It's also got two red sources, two green sources, and four black sources. You'd just better hope that your opponent isn't using Wasteland, or Stifle/Pithing Needle on your fetches.
And you need to find a way to make room for Winged Sliver. Simply put, without evasion this deck will rarely win. Any other aggro deck will be able to chump you all game without Winged Sliver in play. This is when cards like Nacatl and Goofy really suck.
Chainsaw is correct on all points. Winged Sliver is absolutely vital, especially against other aggro decks. If you're looking for additional ways to combat Nacatls and goyfs, consider running 2-3 Talon Slivers. Vialing in a Talon Sliver during combat can be a very nasty surprise for your opponent. Also, you should strongly consider Plated Sliver to fill the role of pump slivers 9-12. Sure, they don't pump the power, but for 1 lousy mana they give you nice body to add to the hive, and that extra point of toughness makes your dudes all the harder for your opponent to deal with in combat. Plated Slivers are really quite underrated.
I don't want to stifle innovation or creativity, but I would strongly discourage you from dallying into 5 colors if you're trying to build a competitive deck. Red just doesn't offer enough.
I just started looking at this deck and I want to try it out, looks like fun. Has anyone tried Frenzy Sliver in place of Muscle Sliver (or even in addition)? Also do you think a 1-of Heart Sliver to fetch with Eladamri's Call would be worth it?
I just started looking at this deck and I want to try it out, looks like fun. Has anyone tried Frenzy Sliver in place of Muscle Sliver (or even in addition)? Also do you think a 1-of Heart Sliver to fetch with Eladamri's Call would be worth it?
Frenzy is an interesting call, but is far inferior to Muscle Sliver. Frenzy doesn't grant you any bonuses to toughness, and also has no effect when blocking/blocked.
Heart Sliver is red, and therefor not really designed for this deck. Aside from that, we usually tend to Vial our Slivers in EoT so they technically have haste anyways.
My line of thought with heart sliver was that you could play vial turn one, turn two muscle, turn three crystalline and vial out a heart and that's 7 damage swinging. Just a thought. I suppose as a one-of that scenario isn't very likely anyways
The reason I brought up Frenzy is because it would allow you to strip out green, allowing for a more consistent mana base. Although I do plan to test them in addition to Muscle once I get around to putting this together.
yes, that damage would be a lot. But the problem is, that the damage isn't enough to be fatal, and than an EE or another wrath effect completely mauls you over.
If Frenzy Sliver had a 2/2 body, it would be a decent replacement for Muscle Sliver. But it doesn't.
There are no slivers worth splashing red for.
One of the nice things about the slivers we play in this deck is that they already have a sort of pseudo-haste built in. That is, when they come into play, they immediately improve all the other slivers in play.
I've found Virulent is a nice addition. While Muscle and Sinew are preferred, sometimes you don't draw them or they get taken out. I beat a nice Goblin deck with a pair of Virulents going all the way. The lone Muscle I drew got Bolted, but countermagic and STP got my other dudes through in 3 swings. And I'd add while there is some lifegain in Legacy (from one's own STPs if nothing else), no one plays Leeches.
On the subject of Shadow Sliver, he's not an optimum card, but until I get more Crystallines, he's in there as a 1- or 2-of. You just have to know how to play him. While you wouldn't want to make him your first drop, he does tend to be your last, making sure your team gets through. And if you do play him before your win-turn, maybe you have a Hibernation in play, allowing you to attack unblockably but bring your team back in if necessary.
I've found Virulent is a nice addition. While Muscle and Sinew are preferred, sometimes you don't draw them or they get taken out. I beat a nice Goblin deck with a pair of Virulents going all the way.
On the subject of Shadow Sliver, he's not an optimum card, but until I get more Crystallines, he's in there as a 1- or 2-of. You just have to know how to play him. While you wouldn't want to make him your first drop, he does tend to be your last, making sure your team gets through. And if you do play him before your win-turn, maybe you have a Hibernation in play, allowing you to attack unblockably but bring your team back in if necessary.
Shadow Sliver is really more of an alternative to Winged Sliver than to Crystalline Sliver. If I were to play a 3cc alternative to Crystalline Sliver, it would be Opaline.
I had a rare opportunity to play in a real live Legacy tournament today. Don (a.k.a. AngryTroll) was in town this weekend and wanted to hit one of the local shops (Other Worlds in Portland, OR) for their weekly EDH and Legacy tournaments. He asked me if I wanted to tag along. I eagerly accepted, since I've been itching to try out my latest EDH 5c-control deck (general = Child of Alara) and Legacy Countersliver deck.
There were 9 people for the EDH tournament, so we split into 3 pods of 3 players. The 3 pod winners would then play a 2nd round for the marbles. I won my pod pretty easily, and Don won his, and some dude named Ethan won the other pod. We only had about an hour to finish before the Legacy tournament was to start, so we shuffled up and started playing. Fast forward an hour... Don and I were on the verge of knocking Ethan out of the game, and I had the Banefire in hand that would have finished him off, but I offered to just call it a 3-way draw. Everyone agreed and we split the meager store credit. Onto the Legacy tournament...
As mentioned above, I played Countersliver. I've been tinkering with UWb variations for a while, trying to find a competitive list that didn't include forests and Muscle Slivers. Along the way, I did a lot of experimentation with Standstill, Wasteland, Talon Sliver, and maindeck Stifles and Spell Snares. There were a few false positives along the way, but I eventually found all of those cards to be unsatisfactory. The deck didn't need more disruption, or even card drawing. It needed more speed, and it needed something to make the slivers more combat-worthy. Finally, I went back to an old mainstay from the original UWg MeatHooks List: Plated Sliver (!) I had forgotten how good this guy is. I never thought he would play all that well in a UWb list, but it turns out it was just what the deck needed. So, here's the list I played at the tournament:
In the first game, I get out a quick Plated, Crystalline, and Sinew and start beating. I counter his first Intuition. He casts another one on the next turn, which resolves. He gets a Volrath Stronghold, Eternal Witness, and Engineered Explosives. I let him keep the Stronghold. He's unable to assemble the pieces in time before slivers beat him down.
In the second game, he keeps an opening hand with 1 land, Top, and Brainstorm. He doesn't find a 2nd land until turn 4, and slivers run him over in short order.
Round 2 vs Gyula with UGR CounterTop Control
He mulls to 5 in game 1. I keep an awkward opening hand with 1 land and 2 cantrips. I takes me a couple of tries to find a 2nd land and get things rolling, but the free Hymn to Tourach proves decisive.
In game 2, we reach sort of a standstill with a couple of goyfs in his side, and a Crystalline, Plated, Sinew on my side. He gets tricksy by Krosan Gripping his own Top, making his goyfs too big for my slivers to block.
In game 3, he establishes the CounterTop soft lock, but I have Aether Vial in play. Fortunately, he doesn't find Krosan Grip in time, and I'm able to eke through enough sliver damage to take down the match.
Round 3 vs Don with Dreadstill
Before the match, I jokingly try to get Don to tell me what he's playing. I knew he was trying to decide between Dreadstill and TEES (Elf Survival with Natural Order & Progenitus) before the tournament, but I didn't know which one he went with. I tell him I figure he's probably playing TEES, since he's been like a kid in a candy story ever since he put that deck together. Don's love for Survival of the Fittest is almost as unhealthy as my love for slivers. As we're shuffling up for game 1, he glumly announces "I haven't cast Natural Order all day!" At that point, I know with 100% certainty that he's playing Dreadstill. I know all Don's little tricks.
In game 1, I remember Dazing a Standstill, Forcing a Counterbalance, and Plowing a Dreadnought, which put him at 30 life. Meanwhile, I vial in a veritable sliver army and beat him down before he can recover.
In game 2, he resolves a Dreadnought, which naturally makes all my slivers look puny. I have a couple of turns to find removal, but it eludes me.
In game 3, I resolve a turn 1 Aether Vial. He EE's it away a few turns later, but by then it's too late. Sliver beats carry me home.
Round 4 vs Gary with some janky Master of Etherium deck
This was my easiest match of the day by far. All I had to do was kill a couple of Master of Etheriums and apply sliver beats.
So, I went 4-0 matches, 8-2 games, capping off a pretty good day.
Nice going 4-0 when I played 4c meathooks at a 32 person tournament I failed miserably...and it probably wasn't the best choice because it was the first time I'd ever played the deck and we had to put the whole deck together in a couple of minutes when we got there before the tournament started I went 1-3.
Decks I faced:
Janky sort've thresh deck w/o goyf
Stax of some sort or something janky as well...wasn't sure really
Countertop <--I HATE THIS DECK!!!
Raffinity (I was brutally crushed by this guy)
I believe I beat the janky stax deck but nothing else...
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Me too. However, Aether Vial makes CounterTop players want to cry. First turn Aether Vial with Daze or Force backup will usually just win you the game.
Btw, I want to expound on how happy I am with my new UWb list since I added Plated Sliver to it. It's amazing how big of a difference it makes. It speeds up the deck by a turn, and it really complicates combat math for your opponent.
I did get aether vial out against countertop I believe but he had that one annoying green creature called tarmogoyf that just beats the crap out of slivers most of the time unless you have some hibernation and muscle/sinew slivers out he will tears your slivers to pieces and just use them to hunt for fish...
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
i've been watching this deck for some time, and just got done reading all of this thread and the archived one. built 4c and love it. HOWEVER....
how in the hell do you beat dutch stax?!?! my board has 2x harmonic and 2x grips. i'm thinking even if i up it to 4x grips it still won't be enough. humility just pimp slaps this deck all day long! (god i hate that card).
also, the wastelands are anoying as hell.
so i was thinking go the route of plated sliver instead of muscle, but taking the green out weakens the countertop match up as split second on grip is amazing.
help???
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
Humility is the bane of all tribal decks. You may just have to accept the fact that Dutch Stax (whatever that is exactly) is a bad matchup. If you're adamant about improving that matchup, you could try maxing out your K-Grips and also bring in Meddling Mage from the sideboard.
As you noted, the one problem with taking the UWb route is that you lose access to K-Grip and Harmonic Sliver. The best replacements I've found so far are Annul and Vindicate. Annul is kind of a forgotten gem in Legacy. For one measly blue mana, you can prevent that Deed, Explosives, Counterbalance, or Humility from ever hitting the table. Not a bad deal. Of course, it requires good timing. If your opponent sneaks a Humility or Counterbalance into play while you're tapped out or don't have an Annul in hand, you're probably screwed unless you have a way to get rid of it. That's where Vindicate comes into play. I would try a mix of 3 Annul + 2 Vindicate in your sideboard. You might be surprised by how good Annul is.
i actualy tried 4x meddling mage main deck, but then found out that they don't work with humility already in play, which sucks.
i normaly play standard just because fnm is usualy the only thing i have time for. but the one friend i have that plays legacy exclusivly plays dutch stacks (mono white w/ eslspeth as win condition). and the place he plays at that is where i play legacy occationaly, is full of counter top goyf and landstill.
so i'd like to tweek my deck to be the best against that meta. hence, my thinking that grip and green is neccessary. should i maniboard a harmonic, eldimirs call and 2x grip???
i'm just really frustrated and i love winning, and i love slivers, so i want to make this as competitive as possible w/o having to switch decks and play counter top just to win. (god i hate when a few decks just dominate a foramt).
any suggestions?
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
I once again made my way over to Other Worlds Games in Portland, OR today to play in the weekly Legacy tournament, and I also once again played UWb MeatHooks:
JB was playing more of a Sligh deck than a Burn deck, actually. In any case, I withstood an early rush in game 1, and established good board position with a small crew of untargetable slivers. Then, JB dropped an Ensnaring Bridge, leaving no cards in his hand. I didn't see that coming! I never found a counterspell the whole game anyway, so there wasn't anything I could have done about it.
For games 2 & 3, I boarded in my Annuls and hoped I would be able to keep Ensnaring Bridge off the board. Long story short, I did. I came back to win the match 2-1, helped along by JB mulling to 4 in game 3.
2-1, 1-0
Round 2 vs John with Goblins
John was running a pretty solid mono-red list, aside from one slightly odd card choice: Skirk Fire Marshal.
In the first game, I went Plated, Crystalline, Sinew, Winged, win. Pretty standard formula for beating Goblins.
For the 2nd and 3rd games, I boarded out my Hibernation Slivers for Burrenton Forge-Tenders.
In the 2nd game, I had to Force his turn 1 Lackey, but he followed up with a couple of Piledrivers, Warchief, Ringleader. I did my best, but I just couldn't catch up.
Game 3 was kind of odd. John amassed a huge army of goblins over the course of several turns. I held him off with a couple of Burrenton Forge-Tenders and some slivers for a while. I found Winged and started flying over John's goblin horde with a couple of slivers each turn. Finally, John was forced to alpha-strike with his formidable horde of little green dudes, but I had held back enough blockers to prevent him from doing lethal damage. I swung and won the next turn.
4-2, 2-0
Round 3 vs Ted "the Red" with Painter/Grindstone
Ted said he was playing a different list from EPIC's, but I couldn't tell what the difference was.
Both games went pretty much the same, with Ted keeping awkward hands and struggling to make his land-drops. I boarded in Annul for game 2, which kept an EE from hitting board. I also tried to Annul a Counterbalance, but he was able to Force that one into play. It was too late, though, as I already had a small army of slivers in play that killed him before he could set up his combo.
6-2, 3-0
Round 4 vs Nick with Magistrate's Scepter/Clockspinning combo deck
Nick has a knack for building janky decks like this and taking them to local tournaments and doing well with them, as evidenced by his being 3-0 to this point. It's a blue/white deck with Wraths, StoPs, Cloudposts, Vesuvas, Exalted Angels, Cunning Wishes, Fact or Fictions, Magistrate's Scepters, Clockspinning, Mindslaver, Isochron Scepter, and a few other goodies. He attempts to win by making a ton of mana with Cloudposts and Vesuvas, then landing Magistrate's Scepter and Clockspinning to take infinite turns. It's janky as hell, which is why he usually ends up resorting to simple Exalted Angel beatdown after Wrathing the board. I don't get it, but somehow he wins with this pile. Until now...
I get out to a slow start in game 1. Nick counters my first few slivers. I finally land a Plated and a Winged, but I'm only dealing damage to him in a trickle. Nick eventually lands an Exalted Angel. I never find StoP, and Angel goes all the way.
In game 2, I'm a little quicker out of the gate. I counter one or two of Nick's spells while applying sliver beats. Nick scoops when he realizes he's too far behind.
Game 3 was interesting. While I accumulated a small sliver army, Nick got out multiple Cloudposts and Vesuvas, and landed a Magister's Scepter. At a crucial point in the game, he Fact or Fictioned at the end of my turn, which I Forced. He Fact or Fictioned again during his turn, and this one resolved. He revealed the following 5 cards: Cunning Wish, Force of Will, Force of Will, Cloudpost, and Isochron Scepter. I put a Cunning Wish and Force into one pile, and the other 3 cards into the other pile. He took the Cunning Wish pile. I felt like I was pretty much sunk at this point, because I was a couple turns away from killing him, and I had no gas in my hand. My only saving grace was that Nick didn't have another blue mana open to cast Cunning Wish yet. Nick passed the turn, and I drew my card... A Ponder. Okay, let's see what I can find. I cast Ponder and look at my top 3 cards. The 3rd card down is a Meddling Mage, which I had boarded in. I put the Mage on top, draw it, and play it. Knowing that I'm going to name Cunning Wish, Nick has no choice but to Force the Mage, pitching his Cunning Wish to Force of Will because he has no other blue cards in his hand. I swing with my slivers and bring his life total down to 3. Nick still has a chance to pull it out by topdecking a Clockspinning or Wrath, but he doesn't find either.
nice finish. is no one playing countertop goyf, landstill or stax? or were you just lucky enough not to face them?
i'm really curious as to how taking out green/grips affects those matchups.
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
nice finish. is no one playing countertop goyf, landstill or stax? or were you just lucky enough not to face them?
i'm really curious as to how taking out green/grips affects those matchups.
The Painter/Grindstone deck that I played against in the 3rd round had Goyf and CounterTop. I never mentioned the goyfs in my report, but he did play one in the first game. I dropped a Winged Sliver and flew over it. Also, if you'll read my tournament report from the previous week, you'll see I played against 3 CounterTop decks and beat them all. Haven't seen any Stax decks at this tournament. I ran into 1 Landstill (Dreadstill) deck last week. Unfortunately, I haven't actually gotten out to many tournaments in the last several months.
I said this before, and I'll say it again: Annul is very good. Very, very good.
I've been monitoring this thread for some time as I plan to build a countersliver deck of my own and I have a few questions for ya. BTW I'm new to the forums so bare with me.
1. Is the UWb version of this deck stronger then UWg? I'm trying to stay with 3 colors
2. Has anyone played with standstill over ponder? I understand that ponder lets you dig for cards but standstill is that threat card of if your opponent plays a spell.
3. Is it possible to play with the counter/top combo in the side board or is that just to much, and depends on what my metagame is?
I've been monitoring this thread for some time as I plan to build a countersliver deck of my own and I have a few questions for ya. BTW I'm new to the forums so bare with me.
1. Is the UWb version of this deck stronger then UWg? I'm trying to stay with 3 colors
The UWg version is much more popular, but I've been having pretty good success with the UWb version lately. Hibernation Sliver improves your matchups against control decks like Landstill and It's the Fear, while Muscle Sliver tends to do better against Goblins and Burn. The two versions play a bit differently from each other, so you have to be mindful of that. Your choice might come down to whether you prefer to play a slightly slower, more controlling deck, or a faster, more aggro-ish deck.
2. Has anyone played with standstill over ponder? I understand that ponder lets you dig for cards but standstill is that threat card of if your opponent plays a spell.
I playtested Standstill quite extensively in this deck, actually. It's a mixed bag. It makes the deck less consistent. You'll have to mulligan more often, but you'll also have some games where you'll overpower your opponent with card advantage. Keep in mind, you really need to play Wastelands and Mutavaults to optimize the deck's synergy with Standstill. Something like 14 lands + 3 Mutavaults + 3 Wastelands seems to be optimal.
I'm building a UWg version of the deck, just because I have the muscle slivers and not the hibernation slivers. What I don't understand is how you use hibernation sliver to chump block without losing life quickly by using the stack? I play a lot of aggro decks, so I'm thinking that muscle slivers will be better for me as of now though
with the new m10 rules coming out, doesn't it seem like UWb build is becoming a lot weaker? You can no longer use hibernation sliver the same way
"The Fix: As soon as damage is assigned in the combat damage step, it is dealt. There is no time to cast spells and activate abilities in between; the last time to do so prior to damage being dealt is during the declare blockers step."
well white's always been pretty important with sinew and plated slivers. talon sliver is pretty good, but running four is a no since the abilities won't stack. Flanking I don't think is useful, there's better slivers out there (like muscle)
Very quickly... Yes, Hibernation Sliver got neutered. Sure, you can still bounce slivers to protect them from wrath effects, but Hibernation Sliver's greatest asset was the ability to play tricks with the stack during combat.
I'm not sure what this means for the future of countersliver, except I'm pretty sure my UWb build is no longer viable. It might be time to go back to good old UWg Meathooks. Sigh.
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With the amount of things Pithing Needle shuts off that are mainstays in the environment, it's something that you really should consider investing in. Selling even one of your duals could get you almost a playset, if not a complete one. In the long run, it's going to pay off far more then any other card you could invest in right now, especially if you're trying ot make your deck better.
Honestly though, you shouldn't be needing 12 pump Slivers. Yeah, Goyfs and big threats hurt, but you should be holding your StPs and counters for these spells, since they're the ones that are going to be hurting your deck the most. Hibernation Sliver helps a lot in these situations since you can block a big creature with two or three smaller ones, put the damage on the stack, bounce them all for "free", and then replay them via Vials and hardcasting. Regenerating them off of a Sedge means needing to leave even more lands open, which isn't going to be helping you at all when you hit midgame and are looking for ways to get the last few Slivers out. Sure, it may seem a bit steep using Hibernation for two or three activations and taking 4 or 6 damage, but it's gaining you card advantage, which is critical in this format, since you're removing a creature and keeping yours.
Another issue about Sedge Sliver is that it costs 3cmc to play, which throws off your Vials since every other creature is 2cmc in the 5 colour list. Not to mention it's also red, which ends up putting a huge strain on your landbase, which is shaky at 4 colours already. even if you're trying to curve out at 3, fetching for things like Volcanic Island and Bayou are adversly effecting your deck since the bulk of spells are white and blue. If you must run red (which again, I will go on record saying that it's a terrible idea and you shouldn't), I'd try running a land base like this:
4x Polluted Delta
4x Tundra
1x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Plateau
1x Savannah
2x Scrubland
And you need to find a way to make room for Winged Sliver. Simply put, without evasion this deck will rarely win. Any other aggro deck will be able to chump you all game without Winged Sliver in play. This is when cards like Nacatl and Goofy really suck.
I don't want to stifle innovation or creativity, but I would strongly discourage you from dallying into 5 colors if you're trying to build a competitive deck. Red just doesn't offer enough.
Frenzy is an interesting call, but is far inferior to Muscle Sliver. Frenzy doesn't grant you any bonuses to toughness, and also has no effect when blocking/blocked.
Heart Sliver is red, and therefor not really designed for this deck. Aside from that, we usually tend to Vial our Slivers in EoT so they technically have haste anyways.
The reason I brought up Frenzy is because it would allow you to strip out green, allowing for a more consistent mana base. Although I do plan to test them in addition to Muscle once I get around to putting this together.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
There are no slivers worth splashing red for.
One of the nice things about the slivers we play in this deck is that they already have a sort of pseudo-haste built in. That is, when they come into play, they immediately improve all the other slivers in play.
On the subject of Shadow Sliver, he's not an optimum card, but until I get more Crystallines, he's in there as a 1- or 2-of. You just have to know how to play him. While you wouldn't want to make him your first drop, he does tend to be your last, making sure your team gets through. And if you do play him before your win-turn, maybe you have a Hibernation in play, allowing you to attack unblockably but bring your team back in if necessary.
That certainly must have been an odd game.
Shadow Sliver is really more of an alternative to Winged Sliver than to Crystalline Sliver. If I were to play a 3cc alternative to Crystalline Sliver, it would be Opaline.
I had a rare opportunity to play in a real live Legacy tournament today. Don (a.k.a. AngryTroll) was in town this weekend and wanted to hit one of the local shops (Other Worlds in Portland, OR) for their weekly EDH and Legacy tournaments. He asked me if I wanted to tag along. I eagerly accepted, since I've been itching to try out my latest EDH 5c-control deck (general = Child of Alara) and Legacy Countersliver deck.
There were 9 people for the EDH tournament, so we split into 3 pods of 3 players. The 3 pod winners would then play a 2nd round for the marbles. I won my pod pretty easily, and Don won his, and some dude named Ethan won the other pod. We only had about an hour to finish before the Legacy tournament was to start, so we shuffled up and started playing. Fast forward an hour... Don and I were on the verge of knocking Ethan out of the game, and I had the Banefire in hand that would have finished him off, but I offered to just call it a 3-way draw. Everyone agreed and we split the meager store credit. Onto the Legacy tournament...
As mentioned above, I played Countersliver. I've been tinkering with UWb variations for a while, trying to find a competitive list that didn't include forests and Muscle Slivers. Along the way, I did a lot of experimentation with Standstill, Wasteland, Talon Sliver, and maindeck Stifles and Spell Snares. There were a few false positives along the way, but I eventually found all of those cards to be unsatisfactory. The deck didn't need more disruption, or even card drawing. It needed more speed, and it needed something to make the slivers more combat-worthy. Finally, I went back to an old mainstay from the original UWg MeatHooks List: Plated Sliver (!) I had forgotten how good this guy is. I never thought he would play all that well in a UWb list, but it turns out it was just what the deck needed. So, here's the list I played at the tournament:
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
4 Aether Vial
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Burrenton Forge-Tender
4 Hydroblast
2 Disenchant
2 Vindicate
2 Perish
1 Ensnare
Round 1 vs Ted (the Red) with It's the Fear
In the first game, I get out a quick Plated, Crystalline, and Sinew and start beating. I counter his first Intuition. He casts another one on the next turn, which resolves. He gets a Volrath Stronghold, Eternal Witness, and Engineered Explosives. I let him keep the Stronghold. He's unable to assemble the pieces in time before slivers beat him down.
In the second game, he keeps an opening hand with 1 land, Top, and Brainstorm. He doesn't find a 2nd land until turn 4, and slivers run him over in short order.
Round 2 vs Gyula with UGR CounterTop Control
He mulls to 5 in game 1. I keep an awkward opening hand with 1 land and 2 cantrips. I takes me a couple of tries to find a 2nd land and get things rolling, but the free Hymn to Tourach proves decisive.
In game 2, we reach sort of a standstill with a couple of goyfs in his side, and a Crystalline, Plated, Sinew on my side. He gets tricksy by Krosan Gripping his own Top, making his goyfs too big for my slivers to block.
In game 3, he establishes the CounterTop soft lock, but I have Aether Vial in play. Fortunately, he doesn't find Krosan Grip in time, and I'm able to eke through enough sliver damage to take down the match.
Round 3 vs Don with Dreadstill
Before the match, I jokingly try to get Don to tell me what he's playing. I knew he was trying to decide between Dreadstill and TEES (Elf Survival with Natural Order & Progenitus) before the tournament, but I didn't know which one he went with. I tell him I figure he's probably playing TEES, since he's been like a kid in a candy story ever since he put that deck together. Don's love for Survival of the Fittest is almost as unhealthy as my love for slivers. As we're shuffling up for game 1, he glumly announces "I haven't cast Natural Order all day!" At that point, I know with 100% certainty that he's playing Dreadstill. I know all Don's little tricks.
In game 1, I remember Dazing a Standstill, Forcing a Counterbalance, and Plowing a Dreadnought, which put him at 30 life. Meanwhile, I vial in a veritable sliver army and beat him down before he can recover.
In game 2, he resolves a Dreadnought, which naturally makes all my slivers look puny. I have a couple of turns to find removal, but it eludes me.
In game 3, I resolve a turn 1 Aether Vial. He EE's it away a few turns later, but by then it's too late. Sliver beats carry me home.
Round 4 vs Gary with some janky Master of Etherium deck
This was my easiest match of the day by far. All I had to do was kill a couple of Master of Etheriums and apply sliver beats.
So, I went 4-0 matches, 8-2 games, capping off a pretty good day.
Decks I faced:
Janky sort've thresh deck w/o goyf
Stax of some sort or something janky as well...wasn't sure really
Countertop <--I HATE THIS DECK!!!
Raffinity (I was brutally crushed by this guy)
I believe I beat the janky stax deck but nothing else...
Currently Playing:
Retired
Me too. However, Aether Vial makes CounterTop players want to cry. First turn Aether Vial with Daze or Force backup will usually just win you the game.
Btw, I want to expound on how happy I am with my new UWb list since I added Plated Sliver to it. It's amazing how big of a difference it makes. It speeds up the deck by a turn, and it really complicates combat math for your opponent.
Currently Playing:
Retired
i've been watching this deck for some time, and just got done reading all of this thread and the archived one. built 4c and love it. HOWEVER....
how in the hell do you beat dutch stax?!?! my board has 2x harmonic and 2x grips. i'm thinking even if i up it to 4x grips it still won't be enough. humility just pimp slaps this deck all day long! (god i hate that card).
also, the wastelands are anoying as hell.
so i was thinking go the route of plated sliver instead of muscle, but taking the green out weakens the countertop match up as split second on grip is amazing.
help???
As you noted, the one problem with taking the UWb route is that you lose access to K-Grip and Harmonic Sliver. The best replacements I've found so far are Annul and Vindicate. Annul is kind of a forgotten gem in Legacy. For one measly blue mana, you can prevent that Deed, Explosives, Counterbalance, or Humility from ever hitting the table. Not a bad deal. Of course, it requires good timing. If your opponent sneaks a Humility or Counterbalance into play while you're tapped out or don't have an Annul in hand, you're probably screwed unless you have a way to get rid of it. That's where Vindicate comes into play. I would try a mix of 3 Annul + 2 Vindicate in your sideboard. You might be surprised by how good Annul is.
i normaly play standard just because fnm is usualy the only thing i have time for. but the one friend i have that plays legacy exclusivly plays dutch stacks (mono white w/ eslspeth as win condition). and the place he plays at that is where i play legacy occationaly, is full of counter top goyf and landstill.
so i'd like to tweek my deck to be the best against that meta. hence, my thinking that grip and green is neccessary. should i maniboard a harmonic, eldimirs call and 2x grip???
i'm just really frustrated and i love winning, and i love slivers, so i want to make this as competitive as possible w/o having to switch decks and play counter top just to win. (god i hate when a few decks just dominate a foramt).
any suggestions?
I once again made my way over to Other Worlds Games in Portland, OR today to play in the weekly Legacy tournament, and I also once again played UWb MeatHooks:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Aether Vial
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Annul
4 Burrenton Forge-Tender
4 Meddling Mage
2 Submerge
1 Ensnare
Round 1 vs JB with Burning Bridges
JB was playing more of a Sligh deck than a Burn deck, actually. In any case, I withstood an early rush in game 1, and established good board position with a small crew of untargetable slivers. Then, JB dropped an Ensnaring Bridge, leaving no cards in his hand. I didn't see that coming! I never found a counterspell the whole game anyway, so there wasn't anything I could have done about it.
For games 2 & 3, I boarded in my Annuls and hoped I would be able to keep Ensnaring Bridge off the board. Long story short, I did. I came back to win the match 2-1, helped along by JB mulling to 4 in game 3.
2-1, 1-0
Round 2 vs John with Goblins
John was running a pretty solid mono-red list, aside from one slightly odd card choice: Skirk Fire Marshal.
In the first game, I went Plated, Crystalline, Sinew, Winged, win. Pretty standard formula for beating Goblins.
For the 2nd and 3rd games, I boarded out my Hibernation Slivers for Burrenton Forge-Tenders.
In the 2nd game, I had to Force his turn 1 Lackey, but he followed up with a couple of Piledrivers, Warchief, Ringleader. I did my best, but I just couldn't catch up.
Game 3 was kind of odd. John amassed a huge army of goblins over the course of several turns. I held him off with a couple of Burrenton Forge-Tenders and some slivers for a while. I found Winged and started flying over John's goblin horde with a couple of slivers each turn. Finally, John was forced to alpha-strike with his formidable horde of little green dudes, but I had held back enough blockers to prevent him from doing lethal damage. I swung and won the next turn.
4-2, 2-0
Round 3 vs Ted "the Red" with Painter/Grindstone
Ted said he was playing a different list from EPIC's, but I couldn't tell what the difference was.
Both games went pretty much the same, with Ted keeping awkward hands and struggling to make his land-drops. I boarded in Annul for game 2, which kept an EE from hitting board. I also tried to Annul a Counterbalance, but he was able to Force that one into play. It was too late, though, as I already had a small army of slivers in play that killed him before he could set up his combo.
6-2, 3-0
Round 4 vs Nick with Magistrate's Scepter/Clockspinning combo deck
Nick has a knack for building janky decks like this and taking them to local tournaments and doing well with them, as evidenced by his being 3-0 to this point. It's a blue/white deck with Wraths, StoPs, Cloudposts, Vesuvas, Exalted Angels, Cunning Wishes, Fact or Fictions, Magistrate's Scepters, Clockspinning, Mindslaver, Isochron Scepter, and a few other goodies. He attempts to win by making a ton of mana with Cloudposts and Vesuvas, then landing Magistrate's Scepter and Clockspinning to take infinite turns. It's janky as hell, which is why he usually ends up resorting to simple Exalted Angel beatdown after Wrathing the board. I don't get it, but somehow he wins with this pile. Until now...
I get out to a slow start in game 1. Nick counters my first few slivers. I finally land a Plated and a Winged, but I'm only dealing damage to him in a trickle. Nick eventually lands an Exalted Angel. I never find StoP, and Angel goes all the way.
In game 2, I'm a little quicker out of the gate. I counter one or two of Nick's spells while applying sliver beats. Nick scoops when he realizes he's too far behind.
Game 3 was interesting. While I accumulated a small sliver army, Nick got out multiple Cloudposts and Vesuvas, and landed a Magister's Scepter. At a crucial point in the game, he Fact or Fictioned at the end of my turn, which I Forced. He Fact or Fictioned again during his turn, and this one resolved. He revealed the following 5 cards: Cunning Wish, Force of Will, Force of Will, Cloudpost, and Isochron Scepter. I put a Cunning Wish and Force into one pile, and the other 3 cards into the other pile. He took the Cunning Wish pile. I felt like I was pretty much sunk at this point, because I was a couple turns away from killing him, and I had no gas in my hand. My only saving grace was that Nick didn't have another blue mana open to cast Cunning Wish yet. Nick passed the turn, and I drew my card... A Ponder. Okay, let's see what I can find. I cast Ponder and look at my top 3 cards. The 3rd card down is a Meddling Mage, which I had boarded in. I put the Mage on top, draw it, and play it. Knowing that I'm going to name Cunning Wish, Nick has no choice but to Force the Mage, pitching his Cunning Wish to Force of Will because he has no other blue cards in his hand. I swing with my slivers and bring his life total down to 3. Nick still has a chance to pull it out by topdecking a Clockspinning or Wrath, but he doesn't find either.
So, I finished 4-0 for the 2nd week in a row.
i'm really curious as to how taking out green/grips affects those matchups.
The Painter/Grindstone deck that I played against in the 3rd round had Goyf and CounterTop. I never mentioned the goyfs in my report, but he did play one in the first game. I dropped a Winged Sliver and flew over it. Also, if you'll read my tournament report from the previous week, you'll see I played against 3 CounterTop decks and beat them all. Haven't seen any Stax decks at this tournament. I ran into 1 Landstill (Dreadstill) deck last week. Unfortunately, I haven't actually gotten out to many tournaments in the last several months.
I said this before, and I'll say it again: Annul is very good. Very, very good.
1. Is the UWb version of this deck stronger then UWg? I'm trying to stay with 3 colors
2. Has anyone played with standstill over ponder? I understand that ponder lets you dig for cards but standstill is that threat card of if your opponent plays a spell.
3. Is it possible to play with the counter/top combo in the side board or is that just to much, and depends on what my metagame is?
The UWg version is much more popular, but I've been having pretty good success with the UWb version lately. Hibernation Sliver improves your matchups against control decks like Landstill and It's the Fear, while Muscle Sliver tends to do better against Goblins and Burn. The two versions play a bit differently from each other, so you have to be mindful of that. Your choice might come down to whether you prefer to play a slightly slower, more controlling deck, or a faster, more aggro-ish deck.
I playtested Standstill quite extensively in this deck, actually. It's a mixed bag. It makes the deck less consistent. You'll have to mulligan more often, but you'll also have some games where you'll overpower your opponent with card advantage. Keep in mind, you really need to play Wastelands and Mutavaults to optimize the deck's synergy with Standstill. Something like 14 lands + 3 Mutavaults + 3 Wastelands seems to be optimal.
Absolutely, it's possible. It's not a bad idea at all, depending on your metagame.
"The Fix: As soon as damage is assigned in the combat damage step, it is dealt. There is no time to cast spells and activate abilities in between; the last time to do so prior to damage being dealt is during the declare blockers step."
http://wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/42a
I'm not sure what this means for the future of countersliver, except I'm pretty sure my UWb build is no longer viable. It might be time to go back to good old UWg Meathooks. Sigh.