Although many examples of mono-black (MB) discard decks can be found around these forums, I have yet to come a cross of a full review for this specific archetype. I will try to convince you why MB discard is ultimately the best way to go. I've been wanting to write a full review of discard decks in Competitive Legacy for some time now. This is important to notice, as competitiveness inherently influences card choices made. This review is not a discussion on all possible deck lists, rather a review of relevant cards for the desired type of deck.
Discard can be seen as the closest equivalent of blue’s counter mechanic, which has been thoroughly proven to be effective in competitive Legacy. By this I refer to the effective goal of either mechanic: preventing cards from hitting the board. Contrary to countering, discarding is usually non-reactive and a disadvantage to countering. On the other hand allowing you to directly target threats from your opponent is a direct advantage over countering, where only guesses can be made about what cards your opponent is still holding. It should be mentioned foremost that pure discard is most effective in control type decks (examples of non-pure discard cards/decks are of course also possible). Next, I will discuss individual cards and general strategy, then come up with a possible full deck list for MB discard.
Discard creatures
Hypnotic Specter. Best of all MB specters and one of the oldest and most well-known examples of discard, Hippie combines a deadly flyer with random discard for only three mana, allowing to be ritualed out on turn 1. However, seeing as how Legacy meta has changed from when this card was first released, hippie has lost its touch and is no longer the threat it used to be.
Mindstab Thrull. Another creature that used to be highly effective back when creature threats could not be so easily responded to early game as is now the case. It is therefore not recommended, but could be good sideboard material.
Augur of skulls. Generally, most non-creature spells offer better discard effects, either directed or random. Also, as a creature body its very weak and its ability is slow as it can only be played during upkeep. Again, not primarily recommended.
Nezumi Shortfang. Similar to Augur of Skulls: if you do get it transformed it’s a serious, serious threat. However, this is not easily accomplished as it dies quickly and needs at least 2 turns to do so. Sideboard option for decks with less removal.
Nyxathid. This creature finisher offers exactly what you want: potential of growing to a full 7/7 creature that can be ritualed turn 1. Yes, even on turn 1 it’s great when opponent plays first. With 5 cards in hand, it usually takes at least 2 turns to kill, but doing so would seriously stop early progress. The alternative of facing an ever-growing creature early game is not much better either. Its mind screw of ‘to play or not to play’ is just evil, especially with all the discard running main deck. This card makes it a shame that Unearth usually does not fit in a 60 card MB discard deck.
Tombstalker. A big creature finisher that fits in Nyxathid’s slot. Being able to block more attackers is a great advantage, but running out of cards to exile after a first Tombstalker was countered or destroyed, not so productive. Also, at a minimum of 2 mana it is only 1 less than Nyxathid and not so versatile.
Vampire Nighthawk. As this 3 mana cost flyer offers creature removal as well as great lifelink synergy with cards like Funeral Charm, it needs to be seriously considered to be main decked as life loss can be a serious issue. Also, its toughness of 3 makes it just that much harder to remove and can turn the game in your favor.
Dark Confidant. Simply the best option for card advantage in a deck with low mana cost cards. However, if main decked, other life loss cards such as Thoughtseize might have to be taken out, although cards like Smallpox and Innocent Blood offer an excellent escape mechanic.
Bitterblossom. Choices have to be made considering life loss when considering this card. It is not easily removed by self and therefore could stop Dark Confidant and Thoughtseize for getting into the deck. On the other hand, for only 2 mana it has the potential to stop a full army in its tracks and it offers excellent synergy with cards like Phyrexian Tower, Smallpox (when other creatures are present) and Diabolic Intent.
Discard spells
Duress. Removes planeswalkers, artifacts, enchantments and counterspells. Often, it function as exactly the latter, opening up the way for other cards to be cast. Most of the time interchangeable with Thoughtseize in function, as removal for creatures should be auto included. Fills turn 1 discard spots.
Thoughtseize. One of the best discard spells available, especially early game to remove the most stringent threats. However it comes at a cost of life, and main decking 4 of these might not always be a good idea.
Inquisition of Kozilek. Another turn 1 discard spell that is still great turn 2 or 3, which removes any threats that could come your way in these turns.
Cry of contrition. Excellent choice for discard after turn 3 where it removes lands that are kept in opponents hand to counter life loss from The Rack. Also great as starter ritualed out with Smallpox for turn 1 creatures.
Funeral Charm. A really underestimated card. The only viable instant discard card ever printed (opponent draws card… what card?). Also, teams up with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, removes weenies and pumps up your creatures. All that for 1 mana.
Hymn to Tourach. In my opinion the best discard spell there is overall, even though it’s not turn 1 unless ritualed. Random discard that hits anything and should surely stress out your opponent, which is always a good thing.
Smallpox. Throw this card in a blender for pure evil juice. This is the embodiment of what black control is. Even when you are yourself low on lands think of the ‘oh-FFS-factor’ when its ritualed out turn 2 with a Cry of Contrition. Even funnier versus Progenitus.
Other spells
Dark Ritual. Running 4 copies for a turn 1 ritual seems a long shot, but with so many combinations of cards that can be played it is well worth the risk. Allows for a smaller mana base and thus more threats, but versions of MB discard that do not include ritual are thinkable.
The Rack. In my humble opinion the engine of the deck. Does what Liliana’s Caress does in retrospect, every single turn, for 1 mana. Keeping cards in hand is something your opponent will seriously consider once 2 copies hit the board, which is not very helpful with so many discard you are playing. Does what Nyxathid does, but better. It is like a needle in your opponents brain.
Sign in Blood. Voted for because it can deal damage to your opponent as well as draw you cards for a small price, however the first is anti synergetic in MB discard and does not apply. However, it does offer a better alternative to Bob than Phyrexian Arena does as the life loss of Arena can be devastating. Also, sometimes you rather have less but faster card draw than Bob or Arena can offer so it may sometimes be an excellent alternative to Bob.
Dismember. Excellent removal, but again adds up on life loss. Also, with enough small removal,Smallpox for sacrifice and land destruction and early discard to take out big creatures, giving so much negatives might be overkill.
Liliana of the Veil. The only serious planeswalker for the deck. Has yet to prove its worth but could turn out to be absolutely indispensable.
Sinkhole. One of the blackest cards available. However, since Smallpox beats this cards for its particular use in MB discard it is redundant and does not belong here as far as I am concerned.
Mishra's Factory. Great alternative to sacrifice for Smallpox when another creature is on the battlefield or don’t when there isn’t. It also escapes a lot of removal as you can discard first, then swing for damage. Mainly used to sacrifice against blockers. However, does require Urborg to be included which makes you vulnerable to Wasteland.
Fetchlands. When Urborg is included offers a choice to thin your deck or not. 4 copies would be too much when running on lowest possible land.
Wasteland. Perfect when playing mono-colored versus multicolored decks in Legacy. With all the dual lands included in competitive meta, you can never go wrong with it. However, with so many cards relying on purely black mana, too many lands that produce colorless mana requires Urborg, which renders you again a target for Wastelands as well.
Sideboard
Damnation. Clearly a sideboard card for its high mana cost. As lands are low should include extra swamps in SB when running 4 copies or run less copies in combination with Darkness.
Surgical Extraction. Not worthy in main deck, but deadly in SB. Turn one Duress, Surgical extraction is so much fun. What Natural Order?
Bojuka Bog. Better alternative in MB discard versus Tormod’s Crypt as it also acts as extra fuel when needed.
There seem to be a lot of immediate responses from magic players when the word discard is uttered, one of the biggest mistakes being to include cards like Megrim, Liliana’s Caress and Quest for the Nihil Stone in an attempt to burn the opponent through discard. However, these are cards that pay-off only after they have been played. Following in line with the immediate goal of discard, removing threats before they can be played, discard should happen as early as possible. Of course this makes sense as in 99% of the cases players will only loose cards throughout the game by playing them, reducing the average effectiveness of discard each turn. As such, cards mentioned above are actually non-synergetic with what you are trying to do as they 1) severely hinder chances of removing threats and 2) lose their effectiveness when the opponent is low on cards. As such these cards are better off in (slower) decks such as U/B draw/discard. However, I feel U/B draw/discard is not as viable in competitive Legacy as MB discard is. Reason for this is ultimately the well known issue of sacrificing consistency by trying to do too many things at once and in this case it also hampers room for good finishers.
Now then, from all known variations on MB discard which route to take? As many players in competitive Legacy will agree, speed is key for control decks. However, this does not mean the lower the mana cost the better. Threats should be balanced out equally, covering as many different answers as possible, for every amount of mana available each turn. A great advantage of discard is the controlling aspect of looking into an opponent’s hand, which even for an Inquisition of Kozilek with no legal target offers a mental threat so to speak, as knowing what threats your opponent is holding is crucial to the game as its progressing. Maybe even more important is the feeling for your opponent that you know, which will at least make him doubt about the strategy to take. Playing control does not stop at the board. I feel this is a major advantage and still heavily underappreciated. Players like to have a clear strategy in their heads according to cards drawn, and this mechanic is a real nice mind screw over countering threats. That being said, this is exactly what control cards do best: messing up hand, board and thus strategies. Getting your opponent into a pinch position can be achieved several ways, but one of the best is slowing down your opponents game, while not being scared of going into topdeck mode. One of such strategies that I believe to be most versatile to competitive Legacy meta involves two cards: The Rack and on to a lesser extent Nyxathid. The Rack is such an awful mind screw it’s not even funny. Highly underestimated, these cards offer the chance to build up card advantage after turn 3-4. Here it becomes clear what’s been mentioned before when an opponent does not know whether you are holding any discard cards and is forced to guess blindly on 'playing or not playing'.
Other than this strategy, known examples of MB discard include Cabal coffers to team up with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth for Consume Spirit and offers better opportunity for the use of cards like Pox. Also known is a combination of Ensnaring Bridge/Noetic Scales, Null brooch, Cursed Scroll that rely on Bottomless Pit to attempt to stop the entire game in its tracks, mostly complemented with cards as Damnation and Sinkhole. However, two major concerns for these two decks are respectively 1) general slowness of the deck and 2) lack of creatures (for example in answer to creature threats that do come through) and a not-so-great card advantage.
A major issue that is also often neglected is life loss. Players are often happy to suggest cards like Bitterblossom, Dark confidant, Thoughtseize, Phyrexian Arena, Dismember and to a lesser extent Smallpox, Sign in Blood and Fetchlands, which are an auto-include for most variations on MB discard. However, auto-including all these cards means a quick death in most cases and as such they should be considered altogether. Ultimately the biggest advantage of running one color is it’s consistency of always being able to play cards if you have the required amount of land. Other than that you want to be able to answer to as many different threats as possible, which means running more cards and thus less lands.
Considering all things mentioned I propose a full deck list as such:
I hope this is somewhat helpful to players that want to build a competitive discard deck. My advice is to go mono-black with cards mentioned above for reasons mentioned above: a consistent deck that answers to an incredible amount of threats. I am open for suggestions or improvements on the review. Since I don't have the budget for the most expensive cards of such a deck myself, I have tested it extensively with lesser alternatives that I mentioned before and it seems to do really well. So above all, I hope players will build similar decks and in due time it will prove to become an established archetype in competitive legacy meta, as I am confident it should be. What can I say, I just love black :).
I wouldn't say it to a variant of either, as the strategy involves safeguarding The Rack as its engine, warranting a new name (I don't think there is an actual name for it yet). It's neither creature heavy nor uses it discard as a secondary goal. It's primary goal is a constant stream of discard forcing difficult decisions and clearing the way for The Rack or Nyxathid.
Maybe I was lucky but I tested it vs this weekends GP winner's deck from Amsterdam, which I visited myself too, and came up with an overall 6-4 in favour of the champion. Not bad I'd say, considering on two games I lost it was with 1 and 3 life (1 turn), and I'm not playing Thoughtseize, Bob, Wasteland or Tombstalker, which could improve the deck.
As for Monomania, it's as I stated, way too slow, discard needs to happen earlier. Unless you can pull 2 rituals and this card -which will not happen very often- it's not worth it. Any decent legacy deck will have played most its cards when you can cast this, or simply hold on to their counterspells. Mind Rot, seriously? It's worse than Hymn to Tourach in two ways, more expensive and not random discard, which can hit anything your opponent doesn't want you to hit. It's also not worth adding it to the list as there is 1) nothing to cut it for and 2) unnecessary as directed discard is more valuable so you don't need more than the Hymns.
Legacy is so flooded in blue with so many counterspells, this strategy is pretty straightforward: throw more discard at them than they can counterspell, while landing spells that discourage playing cards.
I do believe there have been decks simply called The Rack, which would fit it.
Yeah I Agree about the monomania card. I mentioned the same argument to my friends when they told me about it. But they said it was still a good card to have, so I wasn't sure. and yes I agree mind rot does seem slow when you put it that way. However I did some more research (I'm in middle of putting together a MB - discard deck, so I greatly appreciate this thread.). I discovered a creature called abyssal nocturnus, what are your thoughts on him? Also, why no Liliana Vess?
Yeah I Agree about the monomania card. I mentioned the same argument to my friends when they told me about it. But they said it was still a good card to have, so I wasn't sure. and yes I agree mind rot does seem slow when you put it that way. However I did some more research (I'm in middle of putting together a MB - discard deck, so I greatly appreciate this thread.). I discovered a creature called abyssal nocturnus, what are your thoughts on him? Also, why no Liliana Vess?
This is legacy, combo decks win on turn 2 frequently, and consistently by turn 3 (with protection). Aggro decks win on turn 4, and have their hand on the board by then.
Control decks can counter most of your discard spells then drop a jace or goyf and wreck. It's just not that great of a strategy devoting a deck to a single mechanic.
There are a lot of great legacy decks that USE discard, some more than others. The most successful recent decks are the BUG lists that utilize Hymn to Tourach + Snapcaster mage to wreck an opponent's hand while also playing countermagic of their own.
The gate uses Hymn coupled with bigtime threats and tempo gains to give trouble to control & combo decks alike.
Unfortunately, the Rack just isn't that great of a win condition. It's very slow by legacy standards, requires that you resolve your discard spells for it to be effective, and also requires that you draw it in the first place. Look at decks like the gate, Eva Green, the Rock, or even new-ish team america lists (not stifle versions). They do what this deck does, but are more effective at accomplishing those goals.
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I have thought about discard decks before, but ultimately I've always discarded(pardon the pun) the idea due to a lack of consistency and resiliencee. Maybe if Vampiric Tutor was still available the consistency issue might be cracked, but I still think that the resiliency is an issue that is really hard to address.
I do really like The Rack for it's damage on an opponents upkeep ability, a lot of the time you'll have someone stone dead by just passing the turn to them. If you could run 8 racks that would add both resiliency and consistency to the deck imo. Rackling is a possible solution to this, but a 2/2 for 4 is kinda weak. If we were to dip into red we have Lavaborn Muse, which is still in the 4 to cast slot- which is still too expensive- but it's ability is just plain better than the rack's when it comes down to it(3 guaranteed damage for 2 or less makes a big difference). Also, the muse is an elephant as well, which makes for OK beats if nothing else is going on.
If we splash red for muse we also gain access to Lightning Bolt, Terminate and Grim Lavamancer- all of which could add to the consisteny or resiliency of the deck. We also have the backbreaking Bloodmoon/Magus of the Moon, which can shut opposing decks down all by itself.
Is a red splash worth it? I don't really think so, but it may be worth a try.
Here's a decklist I'll wing from the top of my skull:
If we were to go the Bloodmoon/Magus route we'd probably cut an inquisition and either the smallpoxes or the terminates. (Terminates if we go with Bloodmoon, small pox if we go with the magus) Don;t know where we'd fit Grim Lavamancer, and he should probably be in there but I suck at deckbuilding so meh.
I know adding red goes against the whole point of the OP's theme, but it's just a suggestion, feel free to stomp it to paste.
This is legacy, combo decks win on turn 2 frequently, and consistently by turn 3 (with protection). Aggro decks win on turn 4, and have their hand on the board by then.
I've been playing around with almost all established legacy decks including sideboards on MWS, and I have yet to encounter a deck against this one that on average wins on turn 2 or 3, except for Affinity. I know that when you say 'win' you don't necessarily mean have you to 0 life points, but I think here this distinction is in order. Hitting the right cards in topdeck can turn the game in your favour even if you are very low on lifepoints. Smallpox being #1 in doing so. There is so much control, you will at least really slow your opponent down so it's a bit weird to state they win on turn 3 consistently, that's all I'm saying. Could you give some examples on possible scenarios, that would be helpful?
Control decks can counter most of your discard spells then drop a jace or goyf and wreck. It's just not that great of a strategy devoting a deck to a single mechanic.
I disagree that playing a single mechanic is bad, the best advice is to focus on one mechanic, instead of more than one. Additional cards either increase win-cons (by using that one mechanic) or protect the mechanic itself, I think most people would agree. Yes, most of your discard spells will be countered, not all. Yes Jace is a ***** I agree with that, it's +2 is quite powerful versus this sort of deck (I feel its actually very consistent, but doesn't offer card order alterations like blue does). Versus Goyf, haven't had much issues unless 2 or 3 hit the board quickly. Reason for that is, simply take one or two hits until your opponents hand is empty from discard, then play removal (smallpox, vampire nighthawk, smother). Also, Nyxathid should win that matchup 3 out of 4 if he hits the board.
There are a lot of great legacy decks that USE discard, some more than others. The most successful recent decks are the BUG lists that utilize Hymn to Tourach + Snapcaster mage to wreck an opponent's hand while also playing countermagic of their own. The gate uses Hymn coupled with bigtime threats and tempo gains to give trouble to control & combo decks alike.
I feel that's a totally different use of discarding, it becomes so much stronger if you keep a constant stream of discard coming their way.
Unfortunately, the Rack just isn't that great of a win condition. It's very slow by legacy standards, requires that you resolve your discard spells for it to be effective
I agree it's a slow win-con. That's ok, since you play control. However, it's 1 mana, doesn't require any prerequisite or effects to build up, so starts hurting the turn you put it in.
and also requires that you draw it in the first place.
What do you mean requires that you draw it in the first place? Doesn't that count for every card that's why you run 4. Statistically, it only happens rarely that you willl not draw 1.
Look at decks like the gate, Eva Green, the Rock, or even new-ish team america lists (not stifle versions). They do what this deck does, but are more effective at accomplishing those goals.
They have quite different goals (unless you are referring to actually winning), since they are not all pure control, and this mechanic is really quite unique. It's not just board control, it's also hand/play control.
I'm not saying this is the ultimate list, maybe Liliana should be included. Speaking of which, maybe we can fuse this thread with the other that does include Liliana alongside The Rack? In the meantime, do some play testing, it's really not bad at all.
There seem to be a lot of immediate responses from magic players when the word discard is uttered, one of the biggest mistakes being to include cards like Megrim, Liliana’s Caress and Quest for the Nihil Stone in an attempt to burn the opponent through discard. However, these are cards that pay-off only after they have been played. Following in line with the immediate goal of discard, removing threats before they can be played, discard should happen as early as possible. Of course this makes sense as in 99% of the cases players will only loose cards throughout the game by playing them, reducing the average effectiveness of discard each turn. As such, cards mentioned above are actually non-synergetic with what you are trying to do as they 1) severely hinder chances of removing threats and 2) lose their effectiveness when the opponent is low on cards. As such these cards are better off in (slower) decks such as U/B draw/discard.
As I explained, I feel it'll only slow you down, thereby actually reducing the effectiveness of discard.
The problem I see with dedicated discard is that after turn 3 or so, there's nothing left to discard. Their hand is empty, they have a couple lands in play and possibly an early threat, and now both players are in topdeck mode, as we've spent our whole hand to force them to discard theirs, as most of our discard is 1 for 1, and cards like ritual and mox net a loss of card advantage on our side, negating the advantage from hymn.
Once we're in topdeck mode, we're really no longer playing a discard deck. If the opponent draws a land, they play it, setting us back. If they draw a threat they can cast, they play it, and we have to find a solution. The only reason they hold a card is if they're not capable of playing it at the moment (thanks to a lack of mana, hopefully accelerated via smallpox). The problem here that I see, is that once we're in topdeck mode all of our sorcery speed discard spells become completely useless. Smallpox, specter, Liliana, and funeral charm still have use but their effectiveness has been significantly reduced.
Overall I think a very heavy discard strategy is going to work out great in a meta full of combo decks, especially things like storm combo where wrecking their hand in the first two turns wins you the game.
We'll do OK vs control decks, but in the long run they'll usually win because they've got a much better late game than we do. Once we're both in topdeck mode, they've got a much higher density of good, playable cards left, even if their counters are reduced in effectiveness.
Vs aggro, we're going to have a lot of problems. In the first couple turns they're going to drop threats while we kill their hand, and we're not playing enough solutions to deal with them if most of our deck is discard. At the end of the game it's worse, as they've got an extremely high threat density and they'll just draw and play them as necessary.
Finally we have zero game against dredge and reanimator, as two of the most popular decks in the competitive current field, our strategy helps them, and we'll have almost no way of shutting them down, especially dredge.
For this reason, Discard has been tried and tested, and evolved into a couple of existing decks. In general, the closer you get to pure discard, the less effective the deck becomes against a mixed meta. I believe it's generally accepted that a package of 4 Hymn to Tourach and 4-7 targeted 1cmc discard spells (thoughtsieze and/or IOK) makes the most effective discard for including in a heavily black deck. This is what allows Junk (and other Rock), Team America (and other BUG), Eva Green, the Gate, and Pox to focus on heavy discard for the first couple of turns to disrupt the combo and control decks, then start laying out big threats and not draw into many useless discard spells at the end of the game. As listed the 3-color discard-light decks have generally performed better over the last year or two than the mono-black or splashed decks. Gate and pox particularly run several extra discard effects and are probably the closest to mono-black discard while having enough other spells to remain effective. Both have evolved from discard over time, Gate into a great aggro-control deck that can abuse Cabal Therapy as extra discard, and Pox as a board control deck with enough lopsided effects to have the late game necessary to stay viable, though it's probably the least competitive of the bunch. Going any heavier into discard than Pox already does seems pretty sure to leave you overly-redundant, with not enough flexibility to deal with problem cards that slip through the cracks.
Finally : To open this up to the crowd, what is everyone's preferred solution to Leyline of Sanctity in a discard-heavy deck. It's a common sideboard card against storm and burn that happens to give discard headaches. How should we deal with it?
The only reason they hold a card is if they're not capable of playing it at the moment (thanks to a lack of mana, hopefully accelerated via smallpox).
You're completely ignoring the deck's engine: The Rack. It is the reason you actually do a lot better in top-deck mode than other decks. Add Nyxathid to that, and your opponent will certainly not play every single card he can. With this sort of deck you want to get top-deck mode. All the other things you mentioned (they play threats, you have to remove it) counts for both players. This is simply based on luck, i.e. will you draw threat removal when they play a threat?
Smallpox, specter, Liliana, and funeral charm still have use but their effectiveness has been significantly reduced.
How is Smallpox's effectiveness reduced? Top-decking with The Rack on the board actually makes them only play their most valuable cards.
Versus Leyline of Sanctuary, Nev's Disk or Ratchet Bomb is the only things we can really do I'm afraid.
Ohhhkay, Sorry i was misunderstanding the difference between the rack and megrim since both work by making the opponent lose life, but only one makes them want to keep cards in their hand. Looking at it that way. But that's cool, the deck looks good. As for dredge, I've found that if you use surgical extraction/extirpate to get rid of some of the key creatures like necromeba (Don't know if I spelled that right) and Ichorid then it works well to just shut down their deck. Then again, I've only had experience playing against one dredge deck so maybe i'm wrong.
The best card to draw vs aggro is definately Smallpox. Since they run fairly little land and usually play some 1CMC enablers it really hits the spot. However, leaving the gap too wide for too long will certainly be a loss. It's kind of an all-or-nothing game. However, there is some hope for The Rack in this deck as well, opponent's usually finish their hands quickly, as in Affinity (not in Elves though). Other than that, I used to include 3x Darkness in the SB to allow for a little breathing space to find Damnation. I'm still fussing over the SB tbh.
Yeah my post is a bit old, the deck was transformed into competitive legacy The Gate :). In the end, I kept loosing against threats that were put on the table, that's why the last version included guiltfeeder/ensnaring bridge, but before I also has Nyxathid, Nezumi in the deck. Decks like Maverick, Nic Fit or tribal would however overrun me completely. Even with bridge, they could simply destroy and then attack for the win. It just needs more creatures or more disruption, which is why eventually I ended up in The Gate, but it could have been Pox as well.
Splash white for Serenity, other than that you always need to make sure you have several wincons. A solid creatures base like The Gate or land destruction like Pox has. It shouldn't hamper you too much.
I like the idea. i think a nice card to add is i cant think of the name but its when ur opp discards a card they lose a life. something to think about. but i really like the deck. great job
Im gonna use a deck similiar to your first one in a local legacy tournament this next monday,with the adition of powder keg for some removal,also i have a nice sideboard to minimize the deck's weekness, the side includes: 2x enginered plague,2x deathmark,1x infest, 3x nether void,3x vampire hexmage,2x smother,2x perish.
Im gonna post the results of my deck after the tournament. ;D
I play Pox, actually, not MB Discard: but I think I prefer Dystopia vs. a Leyline of Sanctity. It's either going to hit the Leyline: or perhaps Dryad Arbor, Mother of Runes, Thalia, whatever nonlands they happen to get on the field.
Maverick is a tough matchup anyway: it often powers out creatures fast enough to outpace the sacrificial frenzy. Their deck might actually play the Leyline. I guess Lands might play it too, and you can also hit their Fastbond or Exploration.
Discard can be seen as the closest equivalent of blue’s counter mechanic, which has been thoroughly proven to be effective in competitive Legacy. By this I refer to the effective goal of either mechanic: preventing cards from hitting the board. Contrary to countering, discarding is usually non-reactive and a disadvantage to countering. On the other hand allowing you to directly target threats from your opponent is a direct advantage over countering, where only guesses can be made about what cards your opponent is still holding. It should be mentioned foremost that pure discard is most effective in control type decks (examples of non-pure discard cards/decks are of course also possible). Next, I will discuss individual cards and general strategy, then come up with a possible full deck list for MB discard.
Discard creatures
Hypnotic Specter. Best of all MB specters and one of the oldest and most well-known examples of discard, Hippie combines a deadly flyer with random discard for only three mana, allowing to be ritualed out on turn 1. However, seeing as how Legacy meta has changed from when this card was first released, hippie has lost its touch and is no longer the threat it used to be.
Mindstab Thrull. Another creature that used to be highly effective back when creature threats could not be so easily responded to early game as is now the case. It is therefore not recommended, but could be good sideboard material.
Augur of skulls. Generally, most non-creature spells offer better discard effects, either directed or random. Also, as a creature body its very weak and its ability is slow as it can only be played during upkeep. Again, not primarily recommended.
Nezumi Shortfang. Similar to Augur of Skulls: if you do get it transformed it’s a serious, serious threat. However, this is not easily accomplished as it dies quickly and needs at least 2 turns to do so. Sideboard option for decks with less removal.
Nyxathid. This creature finisher offers exactly what you want: potential of growing to a full 7/7 creature that can be ritualed turn 1. Yes, even on turn 1 it’s great when opponent plays first. With 5 cards in hand, it usually takes at least 2 turns to kill, but doing so would seriously stop early progress. The alternative of facing an ever-growing creature early game is not much better either. Its mind screw of ‘to play or not to play’ is just evil, especially with all the discard running main deck. This card makes it a shame that Unearth usually does not fit in a 60 card MB discard deck.
Tombstalker. A big creature finisher that fits in Nyxathid’s slot. Being able to block more attackers is a great advantage, but running out of cards to exile after a first Tombstalker was countered or destroyed, not so productive. Also, at a minimum of 2 mana it is only 1 less than Nyxathid and not so versatile.
Vampire Nighthawk. As this 3 mana cost flyer offers creature removal as well as great lifelink synergy with cards like Funeral Charm, it needs to be seriously considered to be main decked as life loss can be a serious issue. Also, its toughness of 3 makes it just that much harder to remove and can turn the game in your favor.
Dark Confidant. Simply the best option for card advantage in a deck with low mana cost cards. However, if main decked, other life loss cards such as Thoughtseize might have to be taken out, although cards like Smallpox and Innocent Blood offer an excellent escape mechanic.
Bitterblossom. Choices have to be made considering life loss when considering this card. It is not easily removed by self and therefore could stop Dark Confidant and Thoughtseize for getting into the deck. On the other hand, for only 2 mana it has the potential to stop a full army in its tracks and it offers excellent synergy with cards like Phyrexian Tower, Smallpox (when other creatures are present) and Diabolic Intent.
Discard spells
Duress. Removes planeswalkers, artifacts, enchantments and counterspells. Often, it function as exactly the latter, opening up the way for other cards to be cast. Most of the time interchangeable with Thoughtseize in function, as removal for creatures should be auto included. Fills turn 1 discard spots.
Thoughtseize. One of the best discard spells available, especially early game to remove the most stringent threats. However it comes at a cost of life, and main decking 4 of these might not always be a good idea.
Inquisition of Kozilek. Another turn 1 discard spell that is still great turn 2 or 3, which removes any threats that could come your way in these turns.
Cry of contrition. Excellent choice for discard after turn 3 where it removes lands that are kept in opponents hand to counter life loss from The Rack. Also great as starter ritualed out with Smallpox for turn 1 creatures.
Funeral Charm. A really underestimated card. The only viable instant discard card ever printed (opponent draws card… what card?). Also, teams up with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, removes weenies and pumps up your creatures. All that for 1 mana.
Hymn to Tourach. In my opinion the best discard spell there is overall, even though it’s not turn 1 unless ritualed. Random discard that hits anything and should surely stress out your opponent, which is always a good thing.
Smallpox. Throw this card in a blender for pure evil juice. This is the embodiment of what black control is. Even when you are yourself low on lands think of the ‘oh-FFS-factor’ when its ritualed out turn 2 with a Cry of Contrition. Even funnier versus Progenitus.
Other spells
Dark Ritual. Running 4 copies for a turn 1 ritual seems a long shot, but with so many combinations of cards that can be played it is well worth the risk. Allows for a smaller mana base and thus more threats, but versions of MB discard that do not include ritual are thinkable.
The Rack. In my humble opinion the engine of the deck. Does what Liliana’s Caress does in retrospect, every single turn, for 1 mana. Keeping cards in hand is something your opponent will seriously consider once 2 copies hit the board, which is not very helpful with so many discard you are playing. Does what Nyxathid does, but better. It is like a needle in your opponents brain.
Sign in Blood. Voted for because it can deal damage to your opponent as well as draw you cards for a small price, however the first is anti synergetic in MB discard and does not apply. However, it does offer a better alternative to Bob than Phyrexian Arena does as the life loss of Arena can be devastating. Also, sometimes you rather have less but faster card draw than Bob or Arena can offer so it may sometimes be an excellent alternative to Bob.
Dismember. Excellent removal, but again adds up on life loss. Also, with enough small removal,Smallpox for sacrifice and land destruction and early discard to take out big creatures, giving so much negatives might be overkill.
Smother. Possibly the best choice for removal in MB discard. Removes all creature threats turn 1-3 and generally kills the best creatures in competitive Legacy (which generally are creatures with the highest P/T or best abilities, for as low as mana cost as possible). Hits any color unlike Go for the Throat and creatures can’t regenerate. Bye Tarmogoyf, Vendilion Clique, Grim Lavamancer, Gatekeeper of Malakir, Animated lands, Dark Confidant, Stoneforge Mystic, Meddling Mage, Snapcaster Mage, all relevant goblins, merfolk, affinity guys, zoo guys, knights, etc. It’s really that good.
Liliana of the Veil. The only serious planeswalker for the deck. Has yet to prove its worth but could turn out to be absolutely indispensable.
Sinkhole. One of the blackest cards available. However, since Smallpox beats this cards for its particular use in MB discard it is redundant and does not belong here as far as I am concerned.
Lands
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. For reasons mentioned above and including Mishra's factory, even though it reduces effectiveness of playing MB against Wasteland.
Mishra's Factory. Great alternative to sacrifice for Smallpox when another creature is on the battlefield or don’t when there isn’t. It also escapes a lot of removal as you can discard first, then swing for damage. Mainly used to sacrifice against blockers. However, does require Urborg to be included which makes you vulnerable to Wasteland.
Fetchlands. When Urborg is included offers a choice to thin your deck or not. 4 copies would be too much when running on lowest possible land.
Wasteland. Perfect when playing mono-colored versus multicolored decks in Legacy. With all the dual lands included in competitive meta, you can never go wrong with it. However, with so many cards relying on purely black mana, too many lands that produce colorless mana requires Urborg, which renders you again a target for Wastelands as well.
Sideboard
Damnation. Clearly a sideboard card for its high mana cost. As lands are low should include extra swamps in SB when running 4 copies or run less copies in combination with Darkness.
Surgical Extraction. Not worthy in main deck, but deadly in SB. Turn one Duress, Surgical extraction is so much fun. What Natural Order?
Bojuka Bog. Better alternative in MB discard versus Tormod’s Crypt as it also acts as extra fuel when needed.
Vampire Hexmage. Great extra beater that renders Shrine of Burning Rage, Aether Vial and planeswalkers useless.
General strategy
There seem to be a lot of immediate responses from magic players when the word discard is uttered, one of the biggest mistakes being to include cards like Megrim, Liliana’s Caress and Quest for the Nihil Stone in an attempt to burn the opponent through discard. However, these are cards that pay-off only after they have been played. Following in line with the immediate goal of discard, removing threats before they can be played, discard should happen as early as possible. Of course this makes sense as in 99% of the cases players will only loose cards throughout the game by playing them, reducing the average effectiveness of discard each turn. As such, cards mentioned above are actually non-synergetic with what you are trying to do as they 1) severely hinder chances of removing threats and 2) lose their effectiveness when the opponent is low on cards. As such these cards are better off in (slower) decks such as U/B draw/discard. However, I feel U/B draw/discard is not as viable in competitive Legacy as MB discard is. Reason for this is ultimately the well known issue of sacrificing consistency by trying to do too many things at once and in this case it also hampers room for good finishers.
Now then, from all known variations on MB discard which route to take? As many players in competitive Legacy will agree, speed is key for control decks. However, this does not mean the lower the mana cost the better. Threats should be balanced out equally, covering as many different answers as possible, for every amount of mana available each turn. A great advantage of discard is the controlling aspect of looking into an opponent’s hand, which even for an Inquisition of Kozilek with no legal target offers a mental threat so to speak, as knowing what threats your opponent is holding is crucial to the game as its progressing. Maybe even more important is the feeling for your opponent that you know, which will at least make him doubt about the strategy to take. Playing control does not stop at the board. I feel this is a major advantage and still heavily underappreciated. Players like to have a clear strategy in their heads according to cards drawn, and this mechanic is a real nice mind screw over countering threats. That being said, this is exactly what control cards do best: messing up hand, board and thus strategies. Getting your opponent into a pinch position can be achieved several ways, but one of the best is slowing down your opponents game, while not being scared of going into topdeck mode. One of such strategies that I believe to be most versatile to competitive Legacy meta involves two cards: The Rack and on to a lesser extent Nyxathid. The Rack is such an awful mind screw it’s not even funny. Highly underestimated, these cards offer the chance to build up card advantage after turn 3-4. Here it becomes clear what’s been mentioned before when an opponent does not know whether you are holding any discard cards and is forced to guess blindly on 'playing or not playing'.
Other than this strategy, known examples of MB discard include Cabal coffers to team up with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth for Consume Spirit and offers better opportunity for the use of cards like Pox. Also known is a combination of Ensnaring Bridge/Noetic Scales, Null brooch, Cursed Scroll that rely on Bottomless Pit to attempt to stop the entire game in its tracks, mostly complemented with cards as Damnation and Sinkhole. However, two major concerns for these two decks are respectively 1) general slowness of the deck and 2) lack of creatures (for example in answer to creature threats that do come through) and a not-so-great card advantage.
A major issue that is also often neglected is life loss. Players are often happy to suggest cards like Bitterblossom, Dark confidant, Thoughtseize, Phyrexian Arena, Dismember and to a lesser extent Smallpox, Sign in Blood and Fetchlands, which are an auto-include for most variations on MB discard. However, auto-including all these cards means a quick death in most cases and as such they should be considered altogether. Ultimately the biggest advantage of running one color is it’s consistency of always being able to play cards if you have the required amount of land. Other than that you want to be able to answer to as many different threats as possible, which means running more cards and thus less lands.
Considering all things mentioned I propose a full deck list as such:
Creatures
3-4x Nyxathid or 2-3x Tombstalker
3x Vampire nighthawk or Hypnotic specter
3-4x Dark Confidant
Spells
3-4x Duress or Thoughtseize
3-4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Smallpox
0-4x Dark Ritual
4x The Rack
3-4x Funeral Charm and/or Cry of Contrition
3-4x Smother or Go for the Throat
4x Hymn to Tourach
Land
12-16x Swamp
0-3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
0-2x Mishra's Factory
0-3x Fetchlands
4x Wasteland
I hope this is somewhat helpful to players that want to build a competitive discard deck. My advice is to go mono-black with cards mentioned above for reasons mentioned above: a consistent deck that answers to an incredible amount of threats. I am open for suggestions or improvements on the review. Since I don't have the budget for the most expensive cards of such a deck myself, I have tested it extensively with lesser alternatives that I mentioned before and it seems to do really well. So above all, I hope players will build similar decks and in due time it will prove to become an established archetype in competitive legacy meta, as I am confident it should be. What can I say, I just love black :).
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Maybe I was lucky but I tested it vs this weekends GP winner's deck from Amsterdam, which I visited myself too, and came up with an overall 6-4 in favour of the champion. Not bad I'd say, considering on two games I lost it was with 1 and 3 life (1 turn), and I'm not playing Thoughtseize, Bob, Wasteland or Tombstalker, which could improve the deck.
Legacy is so flooded in blue with so many counterspells, this strategy is pretty straightforward: throw more discard at them than they can counterspell, while landing spells that discourage playing cards.
I do believe there have been decks simply called The Rack, which would fit it.
This is legacy, combo decks win on turn 2 frequently, and consistently by turn 3 (with protection). Aggro decks win on turn 4, and have their hand on the board by then.
Control decks can counter most of your discard spells then drop a jace or goyf and wreck. It's just not that great of a strategy devoting a deck to a single mechanic.
There are a lot of great legacy decks that USE discard, some more than others. The most successful recent decks are the BUG lists that utilize Hymn to Tourach + Snapcaster mage to wreck an opponent's hand while also playing countermagic of their own.
The gate uses Hymn coupled with bigtime threats and tempo gains to give trouble to control & combo decks alike.
Unfortunately, the Rack just isn't that great of a win condition. It's very slow by legacy standards, requires that you resolve your discard spells for it to be effective, and also requires that you draw it in the first place. Look at decks like the gate, Eva Green, the Rock, or even new-ish team america lists (not stifle versions). They do what this deck does, but are more effective at accomplishing those goals.
I do really like The Rack for it's damage on an opponents upkeep ability, a lot of the time you'll have someone stone dead by just passing the turn to them. If you could run 8 racks that would add both resiliency and consistency to the deck imo. Rackling is a possible solution to this, but a 2/2 for 4 is kinda weak. If we were to dip into red we have Lavaborn Muse, which is still in the 4 to cast slot- which is still too expensive- but it's ability is just plain better than the rack's when it comes down to it(3 guaranteed damage for 2 or less makes a big difference). Also, the muse is an elephant as well, which makes for OK beats if nothing else is going on.
If we splash red for muse we also gain access to Lightning Bolt, Terminate and Grim Lavamancer- all of which could add to the consisteny or resiliency of the deck. We also have the backbreaking Bloodmoon/Magus of the Moon, which can shut opposing decks down all by itself.
Is a red splash worth it? I don't really think so, but it may be worth a try.
Here's a decklist I'll wing from the top of my skull:
sorceries:
4x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Small Pox
Instants:
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Terminate
4x Dark ritual
Artifacts:
4x The Rack
3x Chrome Mox
Creatures:
3x Lavaborn Muse
4x Hypnotic Spectre
Planeswalkers:
2x Liliana of the Veil
Lands:
4x Badlands
4x Blood Crypt
4x Wasteland
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Swamp
1x Mountain
If we were to go the Bloodmoon/Magus route we'd probably cut an inquisition and either the smallpoxes or the terminates. (Terminates if we go with Bloodmoon, small pox if we go with the magus) Don;t know where we'd fit Grim Lavamancer, and he should probably be in there but I suck at deckbuilding so meh.
I know adding red goes against the whole point of the OP's theme, but it's just a suggestion, feel free to stomp it to paste.
My Deck Index
Main Decks:
Vampire
Zombie
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg: Last Stand
Legacy
:symu::symb: Reanimator
Merfolk
:symb::symr: Dragon Stompy
Vintage
:symu::symb::symg: Demon Oath
MUD
:symu::symr: Landstill
I've been playing around with almost all established legacy decks including sideboards on MWS, and I have yet to encounter a deck against this one that on average wins on turn 2 or 3, except for Affinity. I know that when you say 'win' you don't necessarily mean have you to 0 life points, but I think here this distinction is in order. Hitting the right cards in topdeck can turn the game in your favour even if you are very low on lifepoints. Smallpox being #1 in doing so. There is so much control, you will at least really slow your opponent down so it's a bit weird to state they win on turn 3 consistently, that's all I'm saying. Could you give some examples on possible scenarios, that would be helpful?
I disagree that playing a single mechanic is bad, the best advice is to focus on one mechanic, instead of more than one. Additional cards either increase win-cons (by using that one mechanic) or protect the mechanic itself, I think most people would agree. Yes, most of your discard spells will be countered, not all. Yes Jace is a ***** I agree with that, it's +2 is quite powerful versus this sort of deck (I feel its actually very consistent, but doesn't offer card order alterations like blue does). Versus Goyf, haven't had much issues unless 2 or 3 hit the board quickly. Reason for that is, simply take one or two hits until your opponents hand is empty from discard, then play removal (smallpox, vampire nighthawk, smother). Also, Nyxathid should win that matchup 3 out of 4 if he hits the board.
I feel that's a totally different use of discarding, it becomes so much stronger if you keep a constant stream of discard coming their way.
I agree it's a slow win-con. That's ok, since you play control. However, it's 1 mana, doesn't require any prerequisite or effects to build up, so starts hurting the turn you put it in.
What do you mean requires that you draw it in the first place? Doesn't that count for every card that's why you run 4. Statistically, it only happens rarely that you willl not draw 1.
They have quite different goals (unless you are referring to actually winning), since they are not all pure control, and this mechanic is really quite unique. It's not just board control, it's also hand/play control.
I'm not saying this is the ultimate list, maybe Liliana should be included. Speaking of which, maybe we can fuse this thread with the other that does include Liliana alongside The Rack? In the meantime, do some play testing, it's really not bad at all.
As I explained, I feel it'll only slow you down, thereby actually reducing the effectiveness of discard.
Once we're in topdeck mode, we're really no longer playing a discard deck. If the opponent draws a land, they play it, setting us back. If they draw a threat they can cast, they play it, and we have to find a solution. The only reason they hold a card is if they're not capable of playing it at the moment (thanks to a lack of mana, hopefully accelerated via smallpox). The problem here that I see, is that once we're in topdeck mode all of our sorcery speed discard spells become completely useless. Smallpox, specter, Liliana, and funeral charm still have use but their effectiveness has been significantly reduced.
Overall I think a very heavy discard strategy is going to work out great in a meta full of combo decks, especially things like storm combo where wrecking their hand in the first two turns wins you the game.
We'll do OK vs control decks, but in the long run they'll usually win because they've got a much better late game than we do. Once we're both in topdeck mode, they've got a much higher density of good, playable cards left, even if their counters are reduced in effectiveness.
Vs aggro, we're going to have a lot of problems. In the first couple turns they're going to drop threats while we kill their hand, and we're not playing enough solutions to deal with them if most of our deck is discard. At the end of the game it's worse, as they've got an extremely high threat density and they'll just draw and play them as necessary.
Finally we have zero game against dredge and reanimator, as two of the most popular decks in the competitive current field, our strategy helps them, and we'll have almost no way of shutting them down, especially dredge.
For this reason, Discard has been tried and tested, and evolved into a couple of existing decks. In general, the closer you get to pure discard, the less effective the deck becomes against a mixed meta. I believe it's generally accepted that a package of 4 Hymn to Tourach and 4-7 targeted 1cmc discard spells (thoughtsieze and/or IOK) makes the most effective discard for including in a heavily black deck. This is what allows Junk (and other Rock), Team America (and other BUG), Eva Green, the Gate, and Pox to focus on heavy discard for the first couple of turns to disrupt the combo and control decks, then start laying out big threats and not draw into many useless discard spells at the end of the game. As listed the 3-color discard-light decks have generally performed better over the last year or two than the mono-black or splashed decks. Gate and pox particularly run several extra discard effects and are probably the closest to mono-black discard while having enough other spells to remain effective. Both have evolved from discard over time, Gate into a great aggro-control deck that can abuse Cabal Therapy as extra discard, and Pox as a board control deck with enough lopsided effects to have the late game necessary to stay viable, though it's probably the least competitive of the bunch. Going any heavier into discard than Pox already does seems pretty sure to leave you overly-redundant, with not enough flexibility to deal with problem cards that slip through the cracks.
Finally : To open this up to the crowd, what is everyone's preferred solution to Leyline of Sanctity in a discard-heavy deck. It's a common sideboard card against storm and burn that happens to give discard headaches. How should we deal with it?
You're completely ignoring the deck's engine: The Rack. It is the reason you actually do a lot better in top-deck mode than other decks. Add Nyxathid to that, and your opponent will certainly not play every single card he can. With this sort of deck you want to get top-deck mode. All the other things you mentioned (they play threats, you have to remove it) counts for both players. This is simply based on luck, i.e. will you draw threat removal when they play a threat?
How is Smallpox's effectiveness reduced? Top-decking with The Rack on the board actually makes them only play their most valuable cards.
Versus Leyline of Sanctuary, Nev's Disk or Ratchet Bomb is the only things we can really do I'm afraid.
Reason for this *bumping* is that I'm hoping to create a discussion on anything that's MBC but not The Gate, Eva Green or Pox.
Creatures
4x Bitterblossom
1x Guiltfeeder
Spells
4x Duress
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Innocent Blood
3x Liliana of the Veil
3x Phyrexian Arena (due to Bob's inability to attack)
3x Bottomless Pit
4x Ensnaring Bridge (I've tried Noetic Scales I just really dislike it)
3x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Sensei's Divining Top
Land
8x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
4 phyrexian obliterator
4 diregraf ghoul
4 gatekeeper of malakir
2 tombstalker
4 hymn to tourach
3 thoughtseize
3 dismember
4 diabolic edict
4 dark ritual
4 sink hole
4 wasteland
2 rishadan port
1 urborg tomb of yawgmoth
13 swamps
Im gonna post the results of my deck after the tournament. ;D
Maverick is a tough matchup anyway: it often powers out creatures fast enough to outpace the sacrificial frenzy. Their deck might actually play the Leyline. I guess Lands might play it too, and you can also hit their Fastbond or Exploration.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730