I think the basic idea of a mono black discard deck is that it isn't a control neither an aggro deck, it's a deck in the threshold between theese two strategies that uses the number of cards in hand advantage, that's the reason it doesn't get to a estabilished deck.
Despite the tendency the deck has (from aggro to control), for the best efficiency, it needs to be explosive in the beginning using cards for breaking combos or plays you can't deal latter with your creatures or removals.
My concept, after more than a year testing variants of the deck, the most important conclusion I came with is: The rack would fit into the competitive legacy only if it could be fetched, otherwise, a 1CMC card, worthless in the first 5 turns, subjected to removals, isn't a good idea in legacy.
After testing, the games the deck was really effective were when:
So, starting from theese plays, the deck, for fitting into the competitive legacy, needs to use:
Hypnotic specter: Best creature ever for mono B discard. Can make your opponent discard a land or a key to a combo, threats the opponent every turn and can dardly delay his game.
Gatekeeper of malakir: Can remove threats you couldn't deal with discard and big monsters as a turn 2 progenitus, his 2/2 body is a bonus that helps an aggro strategy or can also block when you need.
Dark confidant: Maximizes your hand advantage, essential in this deck.
Vampire Nighthawk: A pseudo-removal creature, really above normal mana-curve, works really well with equipments as swords of x and x and umezawa's jitte. Really good for defending and provides a bonus life.
Nixathid: A good finisher 3CMC, very good turn 3 drop. Not so good against decks with lots of draw.
Bitterblossom: Can win games by it's own but not so effective in mono B discard if you aren't running jitte.
Inquisition of Kozilek: Almost perfect for legacy, can deal with most things that could threat you on the first turns commonly present on the competitive scenario.
Thoughtseize: The loss of life can help you lose your worse match: zoo variants. Besides, the best targeted discard in magic.
Duress: Useless against the biggest threat for the deck, creatures, not worthy to use.
Despise: Can be very helpful but isn't so versatile as the two above.
Hymn to tourach: The simply play of this card can simply win lots of games, mainly discarding a land card forcing a land lock. Should alway run 4.
Funeral charm: Very versatile, really good when you think it can be cast after the draw of your opponent and before his mainphase. Works well with urborg.
Umezawa's jitte: The reason aggro decks rules on competitive legacy. Not a good a idea for turn 2 on this deck.
Lightning greaves: Gives shroud to your valuable creatures (specter, bob, nyxathid...) and gives haste to the creatures you normally drop on turn3+, turnning the deck more aggressive.
Sword of X and X: works well with the vampire and the fearies, but has been proven too slow for this deck.
Surgical extraction: Well used with discard cards, can be devastating. First sideboard you should ever think.
Damnation: Devastating for your worse match, but kind of slow.
Lands: Mono black needs always to be filled with black mana, leading the deck to a dilema:
Mishra's factory/mutavault: Gives a blocker that can handle bad matches against little creatures, but can simply lock your game because of the lack of black mana. Can be used in combination with Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth (that works well with Funeral charm) but in tests the combination didn't prove worthy for the scenario.
Hypnotic Specter is really weak these days.
When I was growing up into the game Hippie was still a boss in mono black sui decks which I always tried to make work. But I quickly learned these past few years that he just died to power creep. He's definitely not worth the slot anymore, which is really sad because he's one of my favorite cards ever. But, trying to make pet cards work in a competitive environment is counterproductive to becoming a better player/builder.
some thoughts on this deck, as I am also currently testing out a discard deck.
3-4 shrieking affliction is a must, as it grants you 7-8 rack effects and adds consistency.
dark ritual is also great for fast starts, i think it is a worthwhile inclusion in the deck if you are running 1 and 2 cmc discard spells. if you are on the draw and they put on land and a creature in to play first turn, then you can leave them with 2 cards in hand at the end of your first turn. pretty efficient in my opinion.
null brooch whilst being 4 cmc is very good against decks that are looking to put planes walkers into play (read: jace) or have a 'slower' set up than you.
running fewer creatures 2-6 or none i think is better, means that any removal cards the opponent has can become dead cards.
for graveyard decks, having something to send everything to the void/exile works well.possibly leylinbe of the void or bajuka bog (unbsure of spelling of that card)
necrogen mists or lillana of the veil will keep that discard going, this is a deck that you should be comfortable sitting on top mode with if you are going to play it. raven's crime can also be useful for throwing additional lands away once you are in top deck. if the most expensive card is null brooch then you really only need 4-5 lands in play at any time max. 2-3 for playing spells and 2 to keep open for null brooch.
leech ridden swamp is also a good land, because if they do somehow manage to keep 3 cards in hand you can still ping them for 1 damage each turn.
null brooch/ensnaring bridge combo in my experience really frustrates the opponent with should i/shouldn't i play this card...
having something like haunting echoes in MB or SB (1 or 2 only) means that you can also use it to remove lots of annoying cards at once, or get a sneaky mill win in if they are unprepared. there are other great cards for removing threats from hands and library too, but this targets every copy of everything in the graveyard already.
if you really want to splash, green seems best to me. I am only running a mono black myself. It can get you cards to deal with leyline of sanctity early on and sylvan library makes top deck mode far better for you than your opponent.
also people tend to rage quit against decks like this, so dont be surprised if no one wants to play you a second time. even if they won the first match. I had a casual game the other day where the guy scooped, even though he would have probably won, cause he didn't want to lose one life every turn for 18 turns whilst waiting to top deck an answer against my lock down.
i am by no means an expert in deck building for magic, so take my thoughts as possible suggestions to be mulled over and to generate discssion on!
I started working on a Mono-Black Discard deck on MTGO these last few days.
The two most importante cards of the deck, with no doubt, are the ones who cause damage when the opp. has no more cards on his hand or when he discards a card. Of course, Shrieking Affliction, The Rack and Liliana's Caress, for example, are the best options here. Quest for the Nihil Stone is also a good card.
Since I wanted to creat a list that could be played in Legacy and Modern, I ended up with interesting card options: from Ravenous Rats to Gatekeeper of Malakir, using Bubbling Cauldron and Festering Newt for a long game, or Nezumi Shortfang and Cry of Contrition to abuse on the discard mechanics, there's a whole lotta of cool stuff to trip on, once you can stablish plans B, C and D to destroy yr opp., once he already has no cards on his hands.
That's the trick with a Discard deck, I guess: once the "discard" part is done, what's next? I mean, in case you can't find your Shrieking Affliction - what to do? Well, flying creatures are great, such as Oona's Prowler and Liliana's Specter. I didn't have money enough to buy Liliana of the Veil, so I'm working on a list with two Liliana Vess.
I also have one copy of Ensnaring Bridge, a gret card for almost any matchup. Other good card to help u grind yr opp.'s life? Underworld Dreams: it's working wonders against control decks.
Well, these are some thoughts on The Graveyard Club (my creation) deck I'm working on for Legacy and Modern in MTGO.
For the people considering Shrieking Affliction, some people on The Source have been testing Rack Pox variants for a while. I favour something like this:
Nice to see someone using Wrench Mind on MB discard! I thought I was the only one...
About Shrieking Affliction, I don't know... It doesn't convince me. The Rack has a more immediate effect. I love Chains of Mephistopheles, I used to play it back in the 90's -when we just played what it's now called vintage-. But, does it have any sense on modern legacy metagame? Is there a lot of drawing?
Chains is a common monoblack SB card. It absolutely wrecks Brainstorm, which is probably the most commonly played and among the most abusive cards in Legacy. It also creates some problems for Storm combo decks. It's only a 1-of and in the sideboard because yeah, there are a lot of situations where it does nothing, so you only want it sometimes.
Affliction is worse than The Rack (unless you expect them to be on 1 card more often than on 2), but comparing the two is irrelevant. I'm already running 4 Racks and you can't run 6.
Tombstalker main is awkward with Pox effects (if no Bloodghasts and Nether Spirits) and even more awkward with Ensnaring Bridge. A lot of people run it and for good reason but I think it would just be awkward in the list I posted. I'd rather just have 0 creatures main. Tombstalker in the SB to bring in for game 2s where you don't need Bridge and/or they SB out all their creature removal. Just a personal playstyle preference, but I particularly love making opponents sideboard wrong.
It is a bit of a gamble, since I'm all-in on the Rack plan. I figure the Rack as a win condition is weak unless you support it with strong repeatable discard (e.g. Liliana, Raven's Crime) and multiple 2-for-1s (e.g. Hymn, Pox, Wrench Mind). Once you do that, the power of subsequent Racks increases because your whole deck is making Rack good. The Rack Pox thread here has only the 4 Racks to diversify threats, but discussion on The Source leaned towards 5-6 Racks being optimal if Rack is your main plan (the full 4 Shrieking Affliction was bad obv, this isn't Modern). There are situations where Affliction does nothing, and then at least I have Factories and Cursed Scroll to do some work. But I think there are more situations where I want 2 Racks on the board instead of 1, and having > 4 helps with that.
By all means though, if you don't like Affliction don't run it.
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Despite the tendency the deck has (from aggro to control), for the best efficiency, it needs to be explosive in the beginning using cards for breaking combos or plays you can't deal latter with your creatures or removals.
My concept, after more than a year testing variants of the deck, the most important conclusion I came with is: The rack would fit into the competitive legacy only if it could be fetched, otherwise, a 1CMC card, worthless in the first 5 turns, subjected to removals, isn't a good idea in legacy.
After testing, the games the deck was really effective were when:
Turn 1: -Dark ritual for Hymn to tourach and other 1CMC discard
- Dark ritual for Hypnotic specter
So, starting from theese plays, the deck, for fitting into the competitive legacy, needs to use:
Hypnotic specter: Best creature ever for mono B discard. Can make your opponent discard a land or a key to a combo, threats the opponent every turn and can dardly delay his game.
Gatekeeper of malakir: Can remove threats you couldn't deal with discard and big monsters as a turn 2 progenitus, his 2/2 body is a bonus that helps an aggro strategy or can also block when you need.
Dark confidant: Maximizes your hand advantage, essential in this deck.
Vampire Nighthawk: A pseudo-removal creature, really above normal mana-curve, works really well with equipments as swords of x and x and umezawa's jitte. Really good for defending and provides a bonus life.
Nixathid: A good finisher 3CMC, very good turn 3 drop. Not so good against decks with lots of draw.
Bitterblossom: Can win games by it's own but not so effective in mono B discard if you aren't running jitte.
Inquisition of Kozilek: Almost perfect for legacy, can deal with most things that could threat you on the first turns commonly present on the competitive scenario.
Thoughtseize: The loss of life can help you lose your worse match: zoo variants. Besides, the best targeted discard in magic.
Duress: Useless against the biggest threat for the deck, creatures, not worthy to use.
Despise: Can be very helpful but isn't so versatile as the two above.
Hymn to tourach: The simply play of this card can simply win lots of games, mainly discarding a land card forcing a land lock. Should alway run 4.
Funeral charm: Very versatile, really good when you think it can be cast after the draw of your opponent and before his mainphase. Works well with urborg.
Umezawa's jitte: The reason aggro decks rules on competitive legacy. Not a good a idea for turn 2 on this deck.
Lightning greaves: Gives shroud to your valuable creatures (specter, bob, nyxathid...) and gives haste to the creatures you normally drop on turn3+, turnning the deck more aggressive.
Sword of X and X: works well with the vampire and the fearies, but has been proven too slow for this deck.
Surgical extraction: Well used with discard cards, can be devastating. First sideboard you should ever think.
Damnation: Devastating for your worse match, but kind of slow.
Lands: Mono black needs always to be filled with black mana, leading the deck to a dilema:
Mishra's factory/mutavault: Gives a blocker that can handle bad matches against little creatures, but can simply lock your game because of the lack of black mana. Can be used in combination with Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth (that works well with Funeral charm) but in tests the combination didn't prove worthy for the scenario.
Bojuka bog: Nothing that a leyline of the void or a surgical extraction can't handle, plus the tapped isn't nice for this deck.
My mono B Discard:
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Vampire nighthawk
4 Dark confidant
4 Gatekeeper of malakir
3 Nyxathid
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of kozilek
3 Funeral Charm
4 Hymn to tourach
3 lightning greaves
1 Vampire nighthawk
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Damnation
7 Open slot (should deal with artifacts/enchantments and creatures hard to be dealed)
Hope you enjoy the list
When I was growing up into the game Hippie was still a boss in mono black sui decks which I always tried to make work. But I quickly learned these past few years that he just died to power creep. He's definitely not worth the slot anymore, which is really sad because he's one of my favorite cards ever. But, trying to make pet cards work in a competitive environment is counterproductive to becoming a better player/builder.
Legacy: Pox | Tiny Leaders: Thalia Hatebears
3-4 shrieking affliction is a must, as it grants you 7-8 rack effects and adds consistency.
dark ritual is also great for fast starts, i think it is a worthwhile inclusion in the deck if you are running 1 and 2 cmc discard spells. if you are on the draw and they put on land and a creature in to play first turn, then you can leave them with 2 cards in hand at the end of your first turn. pretty efficient in my opinion.
null brooch whilst being 4 cmc is very good against decks that are looking to put planes walkers into play (read: jace) or have a 'slower' set up than you.
running fewer creatures 2-6 or none i think is better, means that any removal cards the opponent has can become dead cards.
ensnaring bridge is MVP against most any deck.
for graveyard decks, having something to send everything to the void/exile works well.possibly leylinbe of the void or bajuka bog (unbsure of spelling of that card)
necrogen mists or lillana of the veil will keep that discard going, this is a deck that you should be comfortable sitting on top mode with if you are going to play it. raven's crime can also be useful for throwing additional lands away once you are in top deck. if the most expensive card is null brooch then you really only need 4-5 lands in play at any time max. 2-3 for playing spells and 2 to keep open for null brooch.
leech ridden swamp is also a good land, because if they do somehow manage to keep 3 cards in hand you can still ping them for 1 damage each turn.
null brooch/ensnaring bridge combo in my experience really frustrates the opponent with should i/shouldn't i play this card...
having something like haunting echoes in MB or SB (1 or 2 only) means that you can also use it to remove lots of annoying cards at once, or get a sneaky mill win in if they are unprepared. there are other great cards for removing threats from hands and library too, but this targets every copy of everything in the graveyard already.
if you really want to splash, green seems best to me. I am only running a mono black myself. It can get you cards to deal with leyline of sanctity early on and sylvan library makes top deck mode far better for you than your opponent.
also people tend to rage quit against decks like this, so dont be surprised if no one wants to play you a second time. even if they won the first match. I had a casual game the other day where the guy scooped, even though he would have probably won, cause he didn't want to lose one life every turn for 18 turns whilst waiting to top deck an answer against my lock down.
i am by no means an expert in deck building for magic, so take my thoughts as possible suggestions to be mulled over and to generate discssion on!
The two most importante cards of the deck, with no doubt, are the ones who cause damage when the opp. has no more cards on his hand or when he discards a card. Of course, Shrieking Affliction, The Rack and Liliana's Caress, for example, are the best options here. Quest for the Nihil Stone is also a good card.
Since I wanted to creat a list that could be played in Legacy and Modern, I ended up with interesting card options: from Ravenous Rats to Gatekeeper of Malakir, using Bubbling Cauldron and Festering Newt for a long game, or Nezumi Shortfang and Cry of Contrition to abuse on the discard mechanics, there's a whole lotta of cool stuff to trip on, once you can stablish plans B, C and D to destroy yr opp., once he already has no cards on his hands.
That's the trick with a Discard deck, I guess: once the "discard" part is done, what's next? I mean, in case you can't find your Shrieking Affliction - what to do? Well, flying creatures are great, such as Oona's Prowler and Liliana's Specter. I didn't have money enough to buy Liliana of the Veil, so I'm working on a list with two Liliana Vess.
I also have one copy of Ensnaring Bridge, a gret card for almost any matchup. Other good card to help u grind yr opp.'s life? Underworld Dreams: it's working wonders against control decks.
Well, these are some thoughts on The Graveyard Club (my creation) deck I'm working on for Legacy and Modern in MTGO.
Any comments?
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
15 Swamp
//Spells: 23
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Raven's Crime
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
3 Wrench Mind
4 Liliana of the Veil
//Artifact/Enchantments: 11
4 The Rack
2 Shrieking Affliction
2 Cursed Scroll
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Tombstalker
2 Engineered Plague
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Pithing Needle
2 Murderous Cut
Chains is a common monoblack SB card. It absolutely wrecks Brainstorm, which is probably the most commonly played and among the most abusive cards in Legacy. It also creates some problems for Storm combo decks. It's only a 1-of and in the sideboard because yeah, there are a lot of situations where it does nothing, so you only want it sometimes.
Affliction is worse than The Rack (unless you expect them to be on 1 card more often than on 2), but comparing the two is irrelevant. I'm already running 4 Racks and you can't run 6.
It is a bit of a gamble, since I'm all-in on the Rack plan. I figure the Rack as a win condition is weak unless you support it with strong repeatable discard (e.g. Liliana, Raven's Crime) and multiple 2-for-1s (e.g. Hymn, Pox, Wrench Mind). Once you do that, the power of subsequent Racks increases because your whole deck is making Rack good. The Rack Pox thread here has only the 4 Racks to diversify threats, but discussion on The Source leaned towards 5-6 Racks being optimal if Rack is your main plan (the full 4 Shrieking Affliction was bad obv, this isn't Modern). There are situations where Affliction does nothing, and then at least I have Factories and Cursed Scroll to do some work. But I think there are more situations where I want 2 Racks on the board instead of 1, and having > 4 helps with that.
By all means though, if you don't like Affliction don't run it.