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History:
Welcome to the Red Deck. Red Deck Wins (RDW) is a highly aggressive R deck that focuses on the creature end of the Magic spectrum. In years past, Red Deck Wins utilized a land destruction package alongside these creature to help generate tempo advantages against the opponent. An example of such a list can be found here:
However, due to the speed of legacy, most of these spells (Pillage for example) are too slow. Wasteland is still one of the best lands in the game, and is highly playable here. I consider it a pillar of legacy, but others may disagree.
Strategy & General Overview:
As mentioned above, the current RDW is built on speed. You win by using up burn spells to kill opposing walls, and get in with your guys. This not only gets you closer to winning, but slows the opponent's clock as well. Against strategies running a small creature count, or even none at all, burn spells like Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning can just hit the face. This is the beauty of a burn spell, as opposed to something like Swords to Plowshares. While Swords kills nearly anything no problem, a Bolt isn't dead if the opponent doesn't use creatures. Guys with 4 or more toughness, such as the infamous Rhox War Monk, can live through just a single Bolt, sadly, so don't think that burn spells are all upside no downside.
Yet again, I must note how consistent RDW is. Because of this, the archetype appeals to the Magic personality of Spike the most. Due to the nature of the deck (that is, focusing on creature damage), the Red Deck can often suffer far less from topdecks than our sister archetype Burn, and can recover from hate far more easily. Most of the creatures in the deck have haste or hit for heavy damage. This gives RDW a huge amount of inevitability. Another key advantage to the deck is turning off land hate against decks that like Stifle and Wasteland.
Don't be afraid to use up a Fireblast to fuel a Grim Lavamancer, or to get a War Monk out of the way. The deck is highly resilient, especially game one, and has an extremely low curve.
Now, how does the basic skeleton look? Well, I generally prefer the 20/20/20 split, that being 20 land, 20 creatures, and 20 spells. However, this is just my opinion. If you want, you can run 16 creatures and 24 spells. It's up to you, and it just depends on what works. I've been know to bend this a little, too.
Card Analysis:
This is the fun part, let's get to building a deck!
Scalding Tarn and co. - NO, we are NOT running it for the deck thinning, as that is negligible and not worth the life. These are primarily here for Grim Lavamancer fuel. Against decks like Affinity and Combo Elves, you will like the extra fuel. They aren't mandatory if you cannot afford them, but are very nice if you can get them.
Wasteland - Two major concerns with this card are 1) It doesn't produce red mana and 2) It has anti-synergy with Price of Progress. It can wins games in some metas, and could be a dead card in others. It's very meta dependent, but very good when you can use it effectively. Can also fuel the Lavamancer.
Keldon Megaliths - The card is slow, has anti-synergy with Price of Progress, turns on opposing land hate, and is expensive to use. Don't run it.
Barbarian Ring - This is an interesting one. On one hand, it seems terrible, for not fueling your Fireblast and all the other reasons listed above with the Megaliths. However, this doesn't slow you down, and can deal a finishing blow. I personally wouldn't run it in here just due to all the anti-synergies within the deck.
Shivan Gorge - No. Highly inefficient, susceptible to Wasteland, and cannot produce red.
Teetering Peaks - Not horrible. I've seen some builds use it quite well.
Creatures:
1CMC: Goblin Guide - One of the, if not THE best red creature printed in a good long time. The drawback is negligible due to the fact that the opponent should be dead before it grants them too much of an advantage. He is highly efficient, and with 2 hits he is suddenly a more effective Bolt. This little goblin is one of the few absolute staples of the deck. Run 4 or don't play RDW.
Grim Lavamancer - Another of the absolute staple. The Lavamancer does exactly what you want: Burns guys out of the way to get in with you own and beats face himself if you are tapped out/don't have fuel. He can also burn the face when it comes to that. Auto 3-4 of.
Figure of Destiny - Another very good beater. He gives the deck more midgame presence, but can hurt speed. I personally don't run him, but that doesn't mean he is bad by any means.
Mogg Fanatic - Why did Wizards get rid of damage on the stack?? WHY WIZARDS?? This guy used to be amazing. No, scratch that. Amazing+1. Moggy here was what helped make this deck a major contender back in the day. Now, well... he is slightly inefficient and can't do much on his own. I've been trying to replace him ever since the new damage rules came out.
Jackal Pup - If you want to go oldschool, check this guy out. He was a staple for many years. However, Jackal Pup tends to be outclassed nowadays. Feel free to run him if you want to, though. Pup still is pretty good, but I would mostly recommend him for a meta void of aggro.
Tattermunge Maniac - Generally worse than Pup. Why? He dies. Very very easily. At least with the Pup you can just not attack until it is favorable. I do not recommend this guy.
Furnace Scamp - A new addition, and this little Scamp (:stupid:) seems like he can be very good. First, he wants to get in for damage. This is good, because that is exactly what RDW wants to do. Not only that, but one Scamp DOES get in, he is like a Lightning Bolt, but better. I am currently testing him, and I will get back to you.
2CMC: Keldon Marauders - This is another perfect card for the deck. Highly damage efficient, and can do more than just one thing. Marauders can get in for that highly efficient damage he is so well known for, or he can stay back and block that huge beasty about to kill you (while STILL getting in for damage). I would say another auto-include, but I could see some builds not running it.
Hellspark Elemental - Another perfect beater. In the long run, he is less efficient than a Ball Lightning, but we don't care about the long run. We want fast damage, and that is what he gives. His unearth promotes the midgame even more, as well as making it hard to trade favorably with him short of a Swords to Plowshares. Sure, he has anti-synergy with the Lavamancer, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't run him. You have plenty of fuel anyway.
Plated Geopede - Straight from Standard, we present: Landfall! This guy can be pretty vicious when paired with the fetchlands. If you want to run him, I recommend a higher land-count build, perhaps even featuring Wasteland.
Kargan Dragonlord - I am personally not a fan of this card. Unlike Figure, Kargan is a turn slower on almost all that he does, and can only do things at sorcery speed. He is still a decent card, just nothing to write home about.
Ember Hauler - He is a walking Shock. Not much else to say about him. While being somewhat slow, he could potentially see play.
Blood Knight - This guy is pretty efficient. It's a metagame choice, but in general there are just better options. Blood Knight is always solid, though.
Stigma Lasher - Like Blood Knight above, Lasher is solid. However, he too is outclassed most of the time.
Immolating Souleater - Another new addition that needs testing. Highly explosive.
3CMC: Ball Lightning - A classic, and still quite effective. He can be killed easily, so he generally isn't run nowadays, most favoring his little brother Hellspark Elemental.
Boggart Ram-Gang - I haven't actually used this guy, but he is basically a more stable (and less explosive) Ball Lightning. Unfortunately, most creatures can just plain outclass him. Still, he is solid in the correct metagame.
Ashenmoor Gouger - The even MORE sturdy (and even LESS explosive) Ball Lightning. Gouger is a bit slow, coming active on turn 4 and all. Like the above, he is a metagame choice.
Countryside Crusher - Another slow one. However, he grows quickly and prevents you from drawing any more land, plus fuels Grim Lavamancer. I haven't actually tried this guy, but he seems pretty good.
Hell's Thunder - Another Ball Lightning brother. This guy hits for more than Boggart Ram-Gang, but dies afterward. He has evasion and is reusable (but for a steep cost.) Overall, solid and quite worthy of a 3 CMC slot.
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage - She turns every card in your deck into an Incinerate. Jaya also has good synergy with the Lavamancer. However, like most of these 3 CMC guys, she is slow. While she promotes the mid-game, she feels like more of a sidebaord card if anything.
Fulminator Mage - If you go the oldschool disruption route, this is generally the land destruction card you will want.
Magus of the Moon - While the Magus isn't something I would normally run, in overdeveloped metagames he could win games on his own. Being a 2/2 on top of his Moon effect is what makes him so great. While not the fastest thing ever, he can provide the disruption needed to win in certain matchups.
4CMC:
This deck will rarely ever go beyond the 3CMC threshold, but there are a few that might be worth going over for in some metas, generally the combo-light ones. If you run any, I recommend running a more land-heavy version.
Flametongue Kavu - This is usually worth it in a Zoo and Merfolk-heavy meta. He gets you some favorable trades and helps keep the pressure up through the midgame.
Avalanche Riders - The Riders are golden in midrange metas. You can screw up peoples mana bases and get a block/fast damage all in one go. In other metas he just comes down too late.
Giant Solifuge - Yet another Ball Lightning, this time hard to kill. However, this spider is generally just too slow.
Hero of Oxid Ridge - Generally worse than Solifuge, which is saying something.
What if I splash?
Well, you get a few different options for each color.
W White:
White is probably the #1 color to splash should you choose to do so.
Steppe Lynx - A highly efficient beater than gives a brutal beatdown paired with fetches. Should you run it, you will probably want more fetches than actual land.
Isamaru, Hound of Konda - A very effective beater. Don't be afraid to run 4, as they die very easily.
Spells:
1CMC: Lightning Bolt - Best spell in the deck. Never play less than 4
Chain Lightning - A Lightning Bolt at sorcery speed. That is still great.
Rift Bolt - I know this is really a CMC of 3, but you will rarely hardcast it. Some people don't like the slowness of the suspend. I don't quite mind it.
Lava Spike - This is better for a straight-up burn deck than RDW. It's inability to get creatures out of the way is not very good.
Brute Force - An interesting take on Lightning Bolt. It's dependence on creatures hurts its playability, but the combat trick is nifty.
Reckless Charge - Like Burte Force, this cards playability is hindered by its reliance on creatures.
Burst Lightning - Not exactly ideal. Even if you are running a budget deck, Incinerate will generally be a better choice. Not the worst card in the world, though.
Reckless Abandon - I have no experience with this card at all. It seems good on paper, being a Goblin Grenade for any creature.
Shock - There are so many strictly and generally better versions of this card, such as Burst Lightning above, it is never justified playing it.
Forked Bolt - Almost never playable. If it were to cost 1 more and did 1 more damage, I might say differently.
Firebolt - Just not good enough for legacy anymore.
Flame Slash - The fact that it cannot hit players means you should almost never run it.
Galvanic Blast - Unless you are playing "Affinity Deck Wins", which I can see the merits of, this is usually just a Shock.
2CMC: Incinerate - Solid card. Good replacement for Rift Bolt if you don't like it, and decent for budget decks. All around a solid card.
Magma Jet - It's like an Incinerate, but you drop 1 damage for card selection. Red could do with card selection, but do to a lot more creatures being X/3s rather than X/2s nowadays, I am not found of this. However, this is still highly playable, and it is totally up to you if you want to run it.
Price of Progress - One of the BEST cards in the deck. Price of Progress can totally blow some decks out of the water. I personally always maindeck 3-4, but some metagames don't justify that, and 2-3 is more appropriate.
Searing Blaze - A new player, and quite decent. It fits well with out gameplan of burn guys out of the way to hit the face. However, the need for a land coming into play can hinder it somewhat. If you choose to run this, I would think maybe 21 land would be appropriate.
Flame Rift - Not all that good. It cannot hit players, and loses you races in the aggro matchup.
Sudden Shock - Too much mana for too little damage.
Arc Trail - This does not deal enough damage for modern day legacy creatures.
Lash Out - You run a lean curve (with the exception of Fireblast), so this will rarely return back to your hand, and it cannot hit players.
3+CMC: Flame Javelin - Good damage to mana ratio, but generally too slow.
Staggershock - A bit like Flame Javelin, but it gives up the Javelin's sheer power for the ability to get ride of multiple threats.
Char - With the above two card being printed, this is no longer playable. Flavourful, but unplayable, sadly.
Pillage - In legacy, and especially the current metagame, land destruction for this much mana isn't fast enough to make a difference. If you want land destruction, check out Wasteland and Raze.
Browbeat - Severely overrated, especially by new players. The fact that it gives an opponent a choice is really really bad. This does not give you reach, it gives you the illusion of reach. Besides, we already have reach due to cards like Grim Lavamancer and Hellspark Elemental.
Flames of the Blood Hand - While it looks good on paper, it doesn't usually work the way you want it to. It also cannot hit creatures, which isn't helping its case.
Hammer of Bogardan - Oldschool choice. Never run more than one if you do run it.
Flamebreak/Volcanic Fallout - We rarely need sweepers, but if you feel your meta calls for it, go ahead.
Fireblast - Amazing card. It finished the game turns ahead of when they should be won, and also wins them out of nowhere. Don't be afraid to use this on creatures, or to get Lavamancer food, either.
Other Permanents: Koth of the Hammer - A new player. I haven't personally used him, but he looks nice.
Sulfuric Vortex - There are mixed feelings about this enchantment. If you have extra room, there are worse things you can be running. Generally a sideboard card.
Seal of Fire - Decent card. A bit like Shock, but you can invest the mana ahead of time.
Cursed Scroll - Oldschool. While it may be slow, it can really pack a punch with it's card advantages it provides. It can be good in a control-heavy metagame as well.
Blood Moon - Because we have no way of getting it out early, by the time it doest come down, it is too late to make much of a difference.
Umezawa's Jitte - While this is just a plain ridiculous card, we tend to not use equipment. Why? Well, most of our creatures don't tend to stick around, and one of those that does (Grim Lavamancer) doesn't attack very often.
Bonesplitter - You may ask yourselves why this is getting the same ratting as the all-mighty Jitte. Well, it costs less to equip, so it is more realistic to cast something like a Hellspark Elemental and be able to equip it. Still generally not worth it.
Decklists:
Now, that is all well and good. But you say you want to see some example decklists?
I'll start with mine, a more straight-forward build:
This is my build I am currently running. I will try and keep the list and description up to date.
Now, I am a very big advocate of the 20/20/20 split of land/creatures/spells. I feel like it grants me a lot of consistency. Might just be me, though.
I've recently cut back on the lands, favoring more spells. I felt like I was drawing too many land. 19 seems to be the right amount for right now. Figure of Destiny ended up taking the old Mogg Fanatic slot. Searing Blaze is doing excellently right now. 2 feels like the right amount for a few reasons. 1) You cannot play it if they don't have a creature, and 2) You don't want to dead draw it too much when you cannot use the landfall. Vexing Shusher > Red Elemental Blast is a response to the increased play of Mental Misstep. Once the hype dies down, I will probably switch it back.
This list is one that runs our friend Steppe Lynx, as well as the cool little burn spell Lightning Helix. Aimed at the face, Helix is a 6 point life swing. Against a creature, the Helix is a huge race swinger. As you can see, Stefano chose to cut 4 creatures in favor of more burn, at least as compared to my list. I'm personally not a fan of Lava Spike, as it's inability to hit creatures hampers it's playability in this deck. But, if it works for you, it works. Here, the fetch lands serve a dual purpose. Not only do they fuel the Lavamancer, but they allow the Steppe Lynx (right) to swing for a ludicrous 4 damage a turn starting on turn 2!
Let's get this out of the way now: adding G gets you Tarmogoyf. Yes, yes, we are all tired of the whole "add Green for Goyf!" comment, but here it is actually legit. He is an above the curve beater that likes getting in unblocked and unopposed. Sylvan Library is played in this version to give some extra reach, but it is not required. Another card to look into for this archetype is Kird Ape. You also gain some seriously good sideboard material in Krosan Grip and Tin Street Hooligan. Definitely worth the splash if you want to do it.
RDW vs Burn:
What is the difference between Red Deck Wins and Burn? Is it significant? Why would I choose one over the other? I've played both decks frequently, and I am going to outline the pros and cons to both.
RDW
Pros:
*Consistent
-Compared to Burn, which has a lot of big, one-shot spells, RDW runs less powerful, but reusable threats. This makes it less draw-dependent, and often more consistent.
*Fights through hate
-Because the deck isn't just focusing on getting through with fast damage, it can afford the time to answer hate. RDW can also often just fight through a lot of the commonly sided cards.
*Can afford to kill creatures
-Burn often times cannot use many of it's spells on creatures, so they will often add some kind of sweeper. RDW actually incorporates creature killing into it's game plan, so you won't "waste" fuel doing this.
Cons:
*Can't race combo G1
-We are about a turn slower than Burn, but more consistent. That extra turn better enables Burn to race combo better than RDW can game 1.
*"Dies to Removal"
-Burn doesn't run many creatures, so it doesn't get hurt by creature removal as badly.
Burn
Pros:
*Very fast
-Burn card win with 7 cards and one land. It has the ability to be as fast as many combo decks.
*Disregards tempo
-Due to it's utter lack of creatures, Burn doesn't suffer from tempo disruption.
*Virtual card advantage
-Because Burn runs very few creatures, it renders opposing removal dead. This gives the deck a "virtual card advantage", which is very helpful.
Cons:
*Suffers from poor draws
-Drawing a land at the wrong time can often lead to game losses
*Suffers from hate
-Burn has a hard time with hate cards. It can get through them with cards like Ratchet Bomb and Pithing Needle, but taking up the time to use these can often allow the opponent to stabilize.
Matchup Analysis:
Here I will cover a few of the matchups that you may run into in the tournament scene. I will give a basic outline of the game plan, what you should side, and how favorable the matchup is: = Very Favorable, = Favorable, = Neutral, = Slightly unfavorable, = Very unfavorable.
Gameplan: This is a matchup that will take a bit of practice to master. The main thing you want to do is burn away the Merfolk players Lords before they pump all of their other little fishies to an untouchable range. When a Standstill comes down, hold off on the damage. Just cumulate your burn spells in your hand until the Merfolk player gets blown out. Also, just pray a Kira doesn't come down, as you really want to save as many burn spells as you can.
In games 2 and 3, use Pithing Needle up on AEther Vial, and if they get one out, Umezawa's Jitte. You can also call Mutavault or (against splash versions) fetchlands, to gain tempo. Use up Red Elemental Blasts on counter magic aimed at key burn spells, and the feared Kira. Do not be too aggressive with the Elemental Blasts, as they are pivotal cards in games 2 and 3.
Gameplan: Ugh... CounterbalanceTop has basically everything against us. I am a highly experienced Red Deck Wins player, and I still have issues against this deck. A Counter/Top player can counter half your deck with their engine up, can wipe your field, takes care of Hellspark Elementalwithease, and has TWO massive blockers, one of which is the dreaded Rhox War Monk. Even as abysmal as the matchup is, it isn't impossible. I know that you, as a red player, hate this, but this matchup requires a lot of it: Thought. You need to pay attention to where they put what, what they draw, how they got what on top of their deck, ect. Take notes if you need to. Once you have that down, you need to try and win quickly, before they get out a War Monk, as that is bad news for you.
Once you have sided, your job gets a bit easier, but not by much. Pithing Needle should almost always come down and declare Sensei's Divining Top. Once that is out of the way, other options would be Umezawa's Jitte and Thopter Foundry (should they run them.) Red Elemental Blast makes your job at killing the Rhox War Monks easier, as well as a Counterbalance should they not have the Top yet, or if you neutered the Top with Pithing Needle. If you lose to this deck a lot, do not give up hope. With enogh practice you can make this matchup as good as a 40:60, which is pretty decent for what it is.
Gameplan: Believe it or not, this is a quite good matchup for the Red player. You are barely affected by Standstill. Why? Because you don't actually NEED to do anything but sit back and draw cards while you get poked at every turn. In fact, I would nearly say that playing the Standstill is a misplay against us. All you need to do is sit back, gather land, and draw burn. Once you feel primed, go for your alpha strike, perhaps suspending some Rift Bolt beforehand. Sure, your opponent gets to draw some cards, but they won't be able to counter your whole onslaught of burn. Once you have burnt them down to a crisp, if they are not dead already, they will most likely be with a few topdecks. However, builds running Stifle/Naught as a win condition are slightly less favorable, simply because it's difficult to race that combo if it goes off turn 2.
This matchup only gets better once you get to side. Pithing Needle naming their Mishra's Factorys only slows them down even more, and getting in the artifact hate for the Dreadnoughts is also nice. Red Elemental Blast just counters key things, like a Force of Will on a Fireblast, or a Stifle for the aforementioned wincondition. If they go with the Tarmogoyf win condition, it gets a bit more tricky. If they just use the Lhurgoyf as a meat-shield, then hold back your guys and just chuck burn spells at the opponent's face (unless they have a Standstill out, at which point you use the previously mentioned method), unless you have enough guys to swing for game. If they turn it sideways, just race them, it's not that hard.
Gameplan: This matchup is a cakewalk if you play it correctly. Do not use up a single piece of burn on the opponent, save that for the creatures. Yes, that includes Fireblast. If the Combo Elves player cannot keep a creature out, they can not win. Grim Lavamancer becomes a key figure in this matchup, and should be played as soon as possible. If the Elves player tried to just straight-up bum rush you, aim burn at the lords and mass mana producers, as well as pieces of the Heritage Druid/Nettle Sentinel engine, namely the Druid.
For games 2 and 3, carry on with the same game plan. If you side extra burn, side out some of your creatures for it. And remember: If you don't let them keep creatures out they cannot win. Even if they do go off, those of you siding Mindbreak Trap won't care much. Oh sure, they have a whole army of Elves, but odds are you can burn out the opponent next turn anyway. Also, on the off chance you side sweepers, this would be a good time to bring them in.
Gameplan: Alright, Affinity is a very easy win from my experience. Their creatures are sub-par, the deck is explosive but inconsistent, you main 3-4 very good cards against them in Price of Progress, and side even more favorable things. In game one, all you really need to do is race. Keep their guys off the board to prevent Arcbound Ravager from... Ravaging you, and to prevent Cranial Plating from blowing you out. As I said above, Price of Progress is a huge blowout card against an Affinity player that you most-likely are packing 3-4 copies of main-board. Be sure to hold onto them until you can get maximum damage, as they can hit for up to 6-8 damage in one shot. If they cast an Arcbound Ravager, feel free to just pop it while the Ravager is on the stack, as they can just eat all their land in response. Etched Champion, a new addition to the archetype, should be the only problem main-board, as it is pretty scary with a Cranial Plating. However, by the time they are swinging with the Champion, you probably can just win with a Price of Progress and a few other spells.
In games 2 and 3, the matchup only gets better. Shattering Spree just absolutely wrecks the Affinity player's manabase, and potentially everything else as well. After playing Pithing Needle you should probably name Arcbound Ravager or Cranial Plating, either is acceptable. It must be noted that the control variants of the deck are a completely different beast.
Gameplan: Like most combo match ups, this is just about racing game one. The High Tide combo is thankfully a little slower than a more traditional storm deck (like TES). All you need to be focused on game 1 is throwing Lightning Bolts and friends at the opponent's head. Keldon Marauders and Goblin Guide are also very good here. Grim Lavamancer tends to not be worth it, as he slows you down more than anything.
Post-sideboard, you are looking at a bit more favorable match. Red Elemental Blast should be shot at the Tide player's High Tides, or sometimes their Time Spirals. Mindbreak Trap tends to not be worth it, as it can be countered quite easily due to all their drawing via cantrips and Time Spiral. Tormod's Crypt can be used to snipe the opponent's graveyard in response to a Time Spiral, but also tends to not be worth the card slots. For all these hate cards, but sure to only side out anything that is not putting out enough damage, otherwise you are just slowing yourself down. After all, none of these are auto-win cards, they are just there to disrupt the opponent while you race. All in all, not too terrible a match up, as far as combo goes.
Gameplan: Our biggest issue against Zoo is that they have access to the same exact burn spells we do, but their creatures plain outclass ours. Wild Nacatl (right) is like a bigger Goblin Guide, Tarmogoyf is flat-out amazing, and Knight of the Reliquary is nearly impossible to kill when it comes down. The other issue is that builds running Lightning Helix have access to life gain. All you need to do in this matchup is stick to your primary game plan: Burn what creatures you can out of the way, and swing for the fences damn to consequences. Your biggest advantage over the Zoo player is speed. All your creatures may be smaller than theirs, but yours are faster. After all, it's not the size that matters, it's how you use it
For games 2 and 3, you really don't have access to much. Tormod's Crypt and it's variants can help make Tarmogoyf and the Knights of a manageable size. Because the Crypt costs 0 to play, I highly recommend you just keep it in hand until they play one of these two beasties. Grim Lavamancer can also help keep the 'Goyf down to a manageable size. If Zoo is even remotely popular in your area, I highly recommend a sweeper that hits for 3, like Flamebreak. We also have a small advantage over Zoo: Our manabase. Zoo has an incredibly fragile manabase. For this reason, I also recommend a Wasteland build.
Gameplan: What is Junk? What is Rock? It's hard to cover this matchup due to the sheer mass of variants on the deck. Some use the traditional route of discard, removal, and big creatures. Others go for a more land destruction orientated game plan. More recently, there are ones making use of Stoneforge Mystic and it's equipment-toolboxing powers. Then there are ones like Aggro-Loam which focus on the decks namesake, Life from the Loam.
However, despite all these differences, the different variants, for the most part, have a similar skeleton and game plan. Most of these decks are based in BGW colors, but sometimes drop one in favor of another. The main beaters of the decks tend to be fat midrange creatures, such as Knight of the Reliquary (Left) and Tarmogoyf. Variants also tend to run the same sorts of cards as well, such as Thoughtseize, Vindicate, and Dark Confidant. This means we can get an idea on how to fight these decks in a wide generalization. Because most are based in three colors, players using these decks tend to use a lot of dual lands. Price of Progress is always happy to punish these greedy manabases. Our creatures also tend to be faster than theirs, and we tend to just be faster in general. A lot of the cards in Rock and Junk decks do not hurt us very much, either. Discard is the biggest thing that phases RDW, but even that damage can be mitigated. Stick to your primary gameplan and you should be just fine.
Graveyard hate is what you want to bring in for games 2 and 3, but you need to judge this based on the matchup. Some Stoneforge decks, for example, don't use the graveyard as much. In general, though, the graveyard hate like the Crypts will make the heavy-hitters of the deck, primarily 'Goyf and Knight, a fightable size. Like in the Zoo matchup, be sure to keep these in hand as long as possible. Hurting the opposing graveyard can also hurt the Life from the Loam variants as well. Pithing Needle will be good in matchups using a lot of equipment, like the aforementioned Stoneforge Mystic packages. Use this added hate to increase your advantages over the opponent and win.
Gameplan: The two biggest decks utilizing Natural Order (right) in the format are NO RUG and Bant. These decks are good right now due to the multitude of people running Mental Misstep over cards like Daze. This allows the deck to run Natural Order out there with little to fear other than an opposing Force of Will. Natural Order decks tend to be aggro/control decks first, with NO to clean up later in the game. Our biggest concern is the spell itself, so try and keep their green creatures off the board. While this isn't always possible (Tarmogoyf), it is somewhat effective while we try and get enough damage in before they race us with Progenitus. Yes, I said 'race'. You can race it. If you think they have the NO in hand (with your epic people-reading skills), just try and throw burn spells and fast creatures at their face as fast as possible.
Post board, the extra Searing Blaze will help you race them while also keeping their board clear, and extra Price of Progress will just plain help the race. Blasts take out the Forces when they are countering critical spells. I wouldn't recommend a whole set for this matchup, though. Probably just 2-3. I dreaded writing about this matchup, simply because there is so little to be said about it. But that's all there is to it. Keep up the pressure with your guys and you should be able to swing this matchup more in your favor.
Gameplan: Our matchup favorability vastly differs depending on what version the opponent is using. Against Patriot and BW, you want to try to preform your usual game plan, burning away guys and hitting in for damage. Just try to make sure that Sword of Fire and Ice or Umezawa's Jitte don't see the light of day.
UW is a little different. It functions more like a traditional control deck, with Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull. This means you need a different approach. So, against this version I advise you to hit the ground running with whatever your fastest guys are, and try to win quickly. Once they land a Stoneforge Mystic, no matter what they get, it needs to go. If they land a Batterskull, it becomes extremely difficult (but not impossible) to win. Even if they didn't get the Skull with their Mystic, they most likely have it in their hand ready to go. Grim Lavamancer is your friend in this matchup.
Post board, everything becomes a little easier. Pithing Needle is very important for this matchup. White has a lot of hosers for us, and many of them (Circle of Protection: Red) are shut down by Needle. Needle also shuts of their equipment, meaning you can spare a little burn for the face, now. UW will still be problematic, but the Red Elemental Blasts go a long way against this version. Remember, BW Stoneblade and Patriot don't use as much countermagic, so the Blasts should probably not come in here.
Well, that is all I am going to write for now. I hope you found this educational, and I also hope you want to try the deck out now. If I made any typos or if something felt awkward to read, please PM me or post here. Thank you for reading!
As a someone who has played Burn a lot and tested it a lot with my group, Keldon Marauders is currently outclassed by everything. Adding more creatures definitely doesn't solve this problem. I would say Figure of Destiny is better, but Mental Misstep is making him worse.
I actually think Wasteland and Port are extremely relevant in this deck still.
I guess just to get it out there, here's a Boros list I was thinking about for a while:
If you running landfall, why not use Searing Blaze? Reckless Charge is interesting, but I think it would be better off as Blaze. Also, the lake of Price is interesting... That card is one of the best tools against the Aggro decks that can race us, Zoo, Affinity, and it also hurts Bant and most other decks
If you running landfall, why not use Searing Blaze? Reckless Charge is interesting, but I think it would be better off as Blaze. Also, the lake of Price is interesting... That card is one of the best tools against the Aggro decks that can race us, Zoo, Affinity, and it also hurts Bant and most other decks
People play around Price of Progress pretty consistently as result of Wasteland. You may get your opponent game 1 but game 2 usually Price of Progress drops to 4 at best. Path to Exile performs that function against all those decks as well by letting you out muscle your opponent. I can honestly say that Price of Progress is always worse than you want it to be.
Searing Blaze is better out of the board always. It is an awkward card to run MD if there are decks that do not get blown out by Blaze. In fact, only Tribal, Zoo and Affinity actually suffer to Blaze. Tarmogoyf consistently lives through it.
There are decks other than aggro, so I think you want to be able to beat them too.
Okay, so first off I just want to say major props on the primer- one of the most well-written I've seen in a while! The addition of not one, not three, by seven match-up break-downs is something that I hope all primers would aspire to (more than a few Established and even some Proven decks don't have anywhere near that, sadly). The pictures are also a nice bonus that gives it all a very polished feel. Also love the RDW banner and the avatar, and, being originally from Portland myself, glad to see someone represent. X)
All of that said, I do have a couple of questions:
First, as someone who plays Legacy Burn I'm wondering how much success you've had overall with running so many creatures. The few creatures Burn runs are all capable of getting in obscene amounts of early damage, generally before blocks come down (Goblin Guide), have built-in evasion in the form of direct damage (Grimmy), or at least have the potential to get much bigger in the late game and smash through (Figure of Destiny, though, admittedly, he is the weakest of the bunch thus far).
With most of our creatures able to take care of themselves to one degree or another, that leaves our actual burn spells free to go straight for the head (or the head of the dreaded Pancake Flipper, as the case may be).
So my question is, when running so many more creatures, do you find yourself playing you're burn spells more as removal (ala a more Zoo-like strategy?) or as burn? I mean, I know that Goyf can eventually get big, and an early Kird Ape is nothing to scoff at, but I can definitely imagine times where, in order to get the most out of your creature investment, you're going to want/ have to clear your guys a path, which leaves less burn in your deck to aim at the face.
Lastly, how is you MU vs all the Junk/ Rock out there that's seen a huge up-swing in popularity recently? If you were going to add another MU to the Primer I'd definitely start there.
As a someone who has played Burn a lot and tested it a lot with my group, Keldon Marauders is currently outclassed by everything. Adding more creatures definitely doesn't solve this problem. I would say Figure of Destiny is better, but Mental Misstep is making him worse.
I actually think Wasteland and Port are extremely relevant in this deck still.
I guess just to get it out there, here's a Boros list I was thinking about for a while:
I'm just curious what you mean by everything? He is generally only outclassed by New Horizons-esq creatures in my experience. Of course, I will test the Figure in his place and see how he does.
Also, I was running Wasteland, but I ended up removing it.
How is Reckless Charge doing? Like I mentioned in the primer, I feel like creature-reliant spells are a bit weak. You could also probably cut a Plateau for another Mountain if you want. I've always been happy with just 3 Plateau.
Okay, so first off I just want to say major props on the primer- one of the most well-written I've seen in a while! The addition of not one, not three, by seven match-up break-downs is something that I hope all primers would aspire to (more than a few Established and even some Proven decks don't have anywhere near that, sadly). The pictures are also a nice bonus that gives it all a very polished feel. Also love the RDW banner and the avatar, and, being originally from Portland myself, glad to see someone represent. X)
All of that said, I do have a couple of questions:
First, as someone who plays Legacy Burn I'm wondering how much success you've had overall with running so many creatures. The few creatures Burn runs are all capable of getting in obscene amounts of early damage, generally before blocks come down (Goblin Guide), have built-in evasion in the form of direct damage (Grimmy), or at least have the potential to get much bigger in the late game and smash through (Figure of Destiny, though, admittedly, he is the weakest of the bunch thus far).
With most of our creatures able to take care of themselves to one degree or another, that leaves our actual burn spells free to go straight for the head (or the head of the dreaded Pancake Flipper, as the case may be).
So my question is, when running so many more creatures, do you find yourself playing you're burn spells more as removal (ala a more Zoo-like strategy?) or as burn? I mean, I know that Goyf can eventually get big, and an early Kird Ape is nothing to scoff at, but I can definitely imagine times where, in order to get the most out of your creature investment, you're going to want/ have to clear your guys a path, which leaves less burn in your deck to aim at the face.
Lastly, how is you MU vs all the Junk/ Rock out there that's seen a huge up-swing in popularity recently? If you were going to add another MU to the Primer I'd definitely start there.
Thanks for the props, mate! Always glad to hear some positive feedback Also yeah, Portland is awesome
As for your question, that is what separates RDW from Burn. It uses it's burn spells primarily to clear the path for your creatures to get through. As I said in the intro, this not only speeds up our clock, but it slows the opponent's clock as well. Of course, you can always just chuck burn spells at the face if they don't have any guys out. Just be careful to always keep one or two to burn the guys coming down as well.
Due to Rock and Junk decks greedy manabases, that is another matchup Price of Progress makes very favorable. Not only that, but the opposing disruption, short of discard, doesn't phase us as much either. The only problem is, like Zoo, most of our creatures get outclassed by Knights and Goyfs. Their mana base can be fragile like Zoos, though, so Wasteland could be another good metagame choice. Funny thing though, I was just thinking of adding that matchup this morning. I'll see what I can do.
Great looking primer Doc!
It's fantastic to see that the Sligh/RDW archetype finally has a good primer and thread here on MtG Salvation
I've been playing this archetype in tournaments for quite a while now and I really believe it to be a superior and more aggressive option compared to Burn. I never seemed to do terribly well with Burn in the local tournaments I attended (30-40 people on average, well developed metagame) but Sligh has taken me to Top 4 a good half a dozen times or so in the last six months playing in tournaments once a week.
I believe the reason for this is that Sligh's more creature based strategy allows for a higher damage per card ratio than a more spell based Burn deck. Hellspark Elemental can get in for 6 damage out of a single card, as can Ball Lightning, Grim Lavamancer, and even Jackal Pup in most cases. While this creature based strategy does make you more vulnerable to removal, with a high enough threat density (20 to 30 creatures) the opponent will never have enough removal to deal with them all. Most decks in the format run no more than 8 creature removal spells, 4 in most cases, so there are very few decks properly equipped to deal with a creature barrage this fast and aggressive.
I think this is why Sligh has performed so much better than Burn for me.
The only things I think your primer is really missing are Reckless Abandon in the "1 CMC Spells" section and Cursed Scroll in the "Other Permanents" section. Reckless Abandon can be great alternative to Price of Progress in underdeveloped metagames (especially if you run a lot of creatures like Keldon Marauders, Hellspark Elemental, and Ball Lightning that would naturally die on their own at the end of turn).
Regarding the Scroll, I know it's a pretty old school choice, but if the metagame has a lot of control decks that board in Circle of Protection: Red, a lot of discard decks that shred your hand early, a lot of Dredge and/or Reanimator decks that like to pull out Iona, or any quantity of Death & Taxes than Cursed Scroll can be an excellent alternative to Sulfuric Vortrex. It's not as efficient in terms of mana to damage ratios, but lacking self damage, being able to get it out on turn 1, having the option of hitting creatures, and being a colorless source can save your backside now and then if your meta features decks like the ones mentioned.
That said, here's the list I've been running for quite a while now...
This list, while a bit old school in some card choices, has performed extremely well for me in the current meta. The sheer level of aggression and speed is very difficult for most decks to deal with and it goldfishes turn 4 on average with the occasional turn 3 wins here and there. And when things don't go quite as planned and the opponent has more removal than usual, having 5 sources of reusable direct damage (3 Grim Lavamancer and 2 Cursed Scroll) is infinitely valuable.
So yeah, it's a little oldchool, but it's been performing well for me and I think it's a lot of fun to play
At this point the only changes I'm considering making are swapping out the 3 Pyroblast in the board for 3 Vexing Shusher. I'm not sure if this is the right call or not, but I haven't seen anyone playing Chill in my meta over the past 6 months so I'm thinking swapping the Blasts out for Shushers might be a good idea.
Great looking primer Doc!
It's fantastic to see that the Sligh/RDW archetype finally has a good primer and thread here on MtG Salvation
I've been playing this archetype in tournaments for quite a while now and I really believe it to be a superior and more aggressive option compared to Burn. I never seemed to do terribly well with Burn in the local tournaments I attended (30-40 people on average, well developed metagame) but Sligh has taken me to Top 4 a good half a dozen times or so in the last six months playing in tournaments once a week.
I believe the reason for this is that Sligh's more creature based strategy allows for a higher damage per card ratio than a more spell based Burn deck. Hellspark Elemental can get in for 6 damage out of a single card, as can Ball Lightning, Grim Lavamancer, and even Jackal Pup in most cases. While this creature based strategy does make you more vulnerable to removal, with a high enough threat density (20 to 30 creatures) the opponent will never have enough removal to deal with them all. Most decks in the format run no more than 8 creature removal spells, 4 in most cases, so there are very few decks properly equipped to deal with a creature barrage this fast and aggressive.
I think this is why Sligh has performed so much better than Burn for me.
The only things I think your primer is really missing are Reckless Abandon in the "1 CMC Spells" section and Cursed Scroll in the "Other Permanents" section. Reckless Abandon can be great alternative to Price of Progress in underdeveloped metagames (especially if you run a lot of creatures like Keldon Marauders, Hellspark Elemental, and Ball Lightning that would naturally die on their own at the end of turn).
Regarding the Scroll, I know it's a pretty old school choice, but if the metagame has a lot of control decks that board in Circle of Protection: Red, a lot of discard decks that shred your hand early, a lot of Dredge and/or Reanimator decks that like to pull out Iona, or any quantity of Death & Taxes than Cursed Scroll can be an excellent alternative to Sulfuric Vortrex. It's not as efficient in terms of mana to damage ratios, but lacking self damage, being able to get it out on turn 1, having the option of hitting creatures, and being a colorless source can save your backside now and then if your meta features decks like the ones mentioned.
That said, here's the list I've been running for quite a while now...
This list, while a bit old school in some card choices, has performed extremely well for me in the current meta. The sheer level of aggression and speed is very difficult for most decks to deal with and it goldfishes turn 4 on average with the occasional turn 3 wins here and there. And when things don't go quite as planned and the opponent has more removal than usual, having 5 sources of reusable direct damage (3 Grim Lavamancer and 2 Cursed Scroll) is infinitely valuable.
So yeah, it's a little oldchool, but it's been performing well for me and I think it's a lot of fun to play
At this point the only changes I'm considering making are swapping out the 3 Pyroblast in the board for 3 Vexing Shusher. I'm not sure if this is the right call or not, but I haven't seen anyone playing Chill in my meta over the past 6 months so I'm thinking swapping the Blasts out for Shushers might be a good idea.
Hey, I remember you from The Source! (I use a promo Grim Lavamancer as my avatar there...) Yeah, I'm very happy I was able to crank this out. I like having my work published for the world to see
I completely agree with you. The reason this archetype seems to preform so much better than your run-of-the-mill Burn deck is the higher cost:damage ratio. Everything in this deck just does that much more to a player than a burn spell. We also have a better aggro matchup, seeing at though that our main game plan is burning guys out of the way (as compared to the 'Bolt the Face' playstyle of Burn.)
Those are good card suggestions, thanks for suggesting them. Will add them to the primer shortly. Yeah, Scroll is old, but in metas that are filled with a lot of control, I can see it working still. CoP: Red isn't an issue though, because we have Pithing Needle. It's effectiveness against said card, though, isn't exactly a strike against it.
IDK, Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast still seem excellent to me. You aren't just hitting countermagic with it. You can also hit Rhox War Monk, Counterbalance, and any number of Merfolk. It's still very solid, and I don't think that replacing them with Vexing Shusher is the right play. Just my opinion, though.
I'm totally not a burn player, I did play some PTQs way back in the day with RDW extended legal (with Cursed Scroll, Ports, Pups etc) but I have played a lot of High Tide. I'm 100% sure that Mindbreak Trap is not exceptionally good (you noticed that) but it's a lot better than Tormod's Crypt. The High Tide deck has a lot of redundancy, meaning that a Crypt does nothing for you. It basically lets you mulligan to 6 when you have it, meaning I get more time to combo out. I would suggest strongly to not board it in.
So, is this the new primer of more creature-oriented Burn deck? I must say i like it, even if i disagree with some of your choises. But nice job man.
First point, your sample decklist:
* Why Rift Bolt over Lava Spike?
* Furnace Scamp? Seriously? Poor Mogg Fanatic seems to be better.
* No Sulfuric Vortex? I read what you've wrote about it and i can understand why it's not in main; but nothing in side either? Sorcery speed artifact removal will never be enough answer for Jitte.
Matchups:
I must say my experiences are a little bit different.
Zoo: slightly favorable - you can succesfully race them. Affinity : very unfavorable - they are freaking fast. And if you clean their board, Disciple will get you. Null Rod is better answer than a removal - it will hurt them much more. Junk / Rock / Horzions: slightly unfavorable - they have so many answers and so many sideboard options. If you try to be faster, they can still discard your hand or counter or whatever. Elves : even, i suppose. We have completely dead Price of Progress, they can block our creatures (which gives them a turn or two), so this is about who will start.
I play classic burn, but the matchups should be similar, in my opinion, Red Sligh is like a turn slower than a Burn, but more consistent, right?
Rift Bolt > Lava Spike is here because of the Rift's ability to hit creatures (which is a primary goal of this deck.) You can run Lava Spike if you want, but I feel like Rift Bolt is just better for the game plan. As I mentioned in the primer, Mogg Fanatic is really lackluster now, and Furnace Scamp fits perfectly with out gameplan. It seemed like an obvious switch.
Sideboards vary with the metas. If you feel like your meta has a need for Sulfuric Votrex, then feel free to board it. I'm personally not a fan, just because it's so slow...
The matchups are far from similar. Burn and RDW have two completely different playstyles... and builds.
I'll join in with everyone else on congratulating you on the primer, just a couple of thoughts.
I haven't tested the deck, and can't claim to know it's in's and outs, but I have played Zoo, and I know my way around Burn. The above lists are all variations on Sligh, which fits the space between Burn/Zoo. The problem is generally the deck will play like a poor version of either. There are matchups this improves, and matchups it worsens, but in general, you run in to the problem that you can't dedicate yourself enough to either plan, and this results in less effective draws.
I think you might be overselling the Landstill Matchup. I only say that because Burn generally has a fantastic matchup against them, much like you've stated, but the closer you get to Zoo (aka the more creatures you include), the further that gets from the truth. The more creatures you run the harder it is to rely on consistent enough draws to win out under a standstill. This is also why you have a better Zoo matchup than Burn. Zoo is Burn with persistent threats. It varies the matchups, but the important part is your matchups are better for being closer to a mirror match.
Similarly I think you'll find in testing against the newer Affinity to be pretty rough on you. Their critters are better than yours, and they are much faster than you are. And you do not have the extra help of having all your damage be alternative removal. It's not a great matchup for Burn either, but Affinity got a lot of new toys, and they are going to be much harder to push around.
And much like Burn I think you're going to need to rely more and more on Vexing Shusher, Mental Misstep makes REB a much tougher choice in the board, and is only really effective in the High Tides matchup. Whereas Shusher will protect you from Counterbalance, Chalice, Misstep and everything else.
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Currently Running Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
Regarding Chandra's Phoenix, I honestly think it's way too slow for RDW. You're paying 3 mana for a shock on legs when you could be playing Ball Lightning and getting in for 6 or playing a less vulnerable non-creature based direct damage card like Sulfuric Vortex or Cursed Scroll.
3 mana is really the top of RDW's curve and and I think in Legacy there are faster and more aggressive things that will get in for more damage quicker or be less vulnerable to removal than Chandra's Phoenix that you could be playing in the 3 mana slot. So I think the Phoenix will be good for standard mono red, but I don't think it's power level is suitable for Legacy.
Regarding Chandra's Phoenix, I honestly think it's way too slow for RDW. You're paying 3 mana for a shock on legs when you could be playing Ball Lightning and getting in for 6 or playing a less vulnerable non-creature based direct damage card like Sulfuric Vortex or Cursed Scroll.
3 mana is really the top of RDW's curve and and I think in Legacy there are faster and more aggressive things that will get in for more damage quicker or be less vulnerable to removal than Chandra's Phoenix that you could be playing in the 3 mana slot. So I think the Phoenix will be good for standard mono red, but I don't think it's power level is suitable for Legacy.
My sentiments exactly. It's too slow for what it does. For 3 mana you should be getting at the very least 4 damage in one go, usually more.
You may be right with Rift Bolt, i often find myself boarding it out, if i expect Leyline of Sanctity. Tell us, how did Furnace Scamp work for you, i'm quite curious about him.
Maybe this is one more point that should above - Burn vs. Red deck wins - pros, cons of both decks, why to choose one over the the second, which matchups are better / worse.
Sorry for not getting to your post. I was in Canada marching in the Victoria Day parade, so I was a bit busy I'll edit in a response later.
Well well, the general idea around now is that affinity is already a force to reckon. To the point (which I foresaw many months ago) that people already started packing Rods and Efluxes. Anyway, as for chandra's Phoenix, I it were 4/1 it'd be worth it. Or for a 2/2 it should have a CMC2 rather than 3. Or her effect should be a la bloodghast and returning it to play rather than forcing you to cast it again. Its a card that could've been much much better. But certainly it doesn't surprise me. Otherwise it'd be a mythic and a chase card.
Well well, the general idea around now is that affinity is already a force to reckon. To the point (which I foresaw many months ago) that people already started packing Rods and Efluxes. Anyway, as for chandra's Phoenix, I it were 4/1 it'd be worth it. Or for a 2/2 it should have a CMC2 rather than 3. Or her effect should be a la bloodghast and returning it to play rather than forcing you to cast it again. Its a card that could've been much much better. But certainly it doesn't surprise me. Otherwise it'd be a mythic and a chase card.
Completely agree here.
Anyway, back to Corwin. Scamp hasn't been doing very well. He is just a little slow. I'm currently using Figure of Destiny in his place. Lists are constantly going through changes, so this is my most current one:
Just went 6-2 in a legacy tourney up in Washington with the list posted above. The meta was littered with MUC and Affinity. Tourney report to come.
Wins:
Round 1: Stompy
Round 2: MUC
Round 4: Team Italia
Round 5: Rock
Round 7: Affinity
Round 8: MUC
Losses:
Round 3: TES
Round 6: Goblins
Again, will post a report soon.
Round 1: Stompy
Well, I've known the pilot for a while, and I have to say he isn't the best player ever.
Game 1:
I did the gameplan of burn all his guys away so that he couldn't use his pump spells. It worked.
Sided: -3 PoP +1 Searing Blaze +2 Pithing Needle
Game 2:
Same gameplan works out, and I beat him 2-0.
Record: 1-0
Round 2: MUC
This is a guy I hadn't seen before the tourney, so I had no idea what he was playing.
Game 1:
After he play Island, Go for his first two turns, I figured I was either against MUC or High Tide. Luckily, the gameplan for each is relatively similar. I kept making aggressive pushes with my spells and creatures before he can stabilize/combo off. Once I had a few spells countered, I knew it was MUC. The game went on a little longer than it should have, due to me drawing a few dead Price of Progress. I eventually drew the beef to take out his last life though, bringing us to game 2.
Sided: -2 Searing Blaze -3 Price of Progress -3 Keldon Marauders +3 Pithing Needle +4 Red Elemental Blast
Game 2:
I go with the aggressive approach again, hoping to get the same result as game 1. Sadly, he got the Shackles and walled me with my own guys until he could get enough mana open to stabilize. Where are those Pithing Needles when you need them?!
Sided: Nothing
Game 3:
I'm on the play this game. I open with a Red Elemental Blast and a Pithing Needle! Yes! I start out with a Goblin Guide, who walks (Guides?) right into a Mental Misstep. Eh, at least he is down a counter for my hate and ate some damage. He gets Island, Go as usual. I get down a Figure of Destiny, which makes it through. I pass leaving the Red open, and pump him at End of Turn. He does Island, Go again, and I pump my Figure to a 4/4. Swing, pass. He lays down a Shackles and passes. I play the Pithing Needle naming Shackles, and instead of responding with Shackles, he counters! (yes!) I play the Red Elemental Blast on the Counterspell and the Needle goes through. I won shortly after.
Record: 2-0
Round 3: TES
Game 1:
Turn 2 combo, what can I say?
Sided: -4 Grim Lavamancer +4 Red Elemental Blast
Game 2:
I did get to Blast a crucial Blue spell (Can't remember what it was, may have been Ideas Unbound). He did have enough fuel to win anyway though. Turn 4 combo was late, but not late enough to lose the game.
Record: 2-1
Round 4: Team Italia
Game 1:
Due to this archetype being relatively new, it took me a while to see what it was. I eventually figured it out. I did the normal gameplan of burning guys out of the way to get in with my own. Once he laid down a Basilisk Collar, I made a point of leaving red mana open to burn stuff it gets equipped to to the ground. I won turn 5.
Game 2:
Pithing Needle is so good. He lays down a turn 1 Collar, I counter it with the Needle. Pro stuff. Anyway, I keep up the aggression, not caring much about his discard, and eventually blow him out with a Price of Progress for 8. That card is ridiculous.
Record: 3-1
Round 5: The Rock
Game 1:
This matchup is so great. Their hate does to little to us, it's amazing. Oh yeah, and we get the Price of Progress goodies too. He does lay down an early Goyf, but I didn't care much about it and just swing with multiple guys at once. Price of Progress ended this game too.
Game 2:
He sided in Kitchen Finks. WTF!? He stabilized thanks to his Ouphes, and won this game
Sided: -3 Rift Bolt +3 Searing Blaze
Game 3:
I only saw 1 Finks (Thank Goodness) this game, and I got the Searing Blaze on it, helping to offset the lifegain. I did win this game, but it took a little while. Price of Progress also closes this game. Such a great card.
Record: 4-1
Round 6: Goblins
I knew this guy pretty well as well. He is a very good player.
Game 1:
He walls off all my attempts at getting in once he hit 10 life. He then quickly closed it out while he was at 5 life. Goblin Piledriver wins some serious games.
Game 2:
Turn 1 he Lackey, Go's me, but I have the burnspell to answer it at the end phase. I then lay down a couple beaters and proceed to answer all his cards (Its hard for him to get ahead with AEther Vial pinned down with Needle.)
Game 3:
He gets the same plan going at game 1. He answers all MY answers and kills me off quickly.
Record: 4-2
Round: 7: Affinity
Game 1:
He kills me with an Etched Champion paired with a Cranial Plating in 2 turns :/
Game 2:
Burn his guys, Shatter his lands. He concedes.
Game 3:
Punch him quickly, Price of Progress for 8, he concedes.
Round 8: MUC
Yes! Another MUC deck!
Game 1:
He gets me with a Shackles, but I don't give up. I should have
Sided: -2 Searing Blaze -3 Price of Progress -3 Keldon Marauders +3 Pithing Needle +4 Red Elemental Blast
Game 2:
I actually play a little laid back in this game. I start out with a fetch into a Grim Lavamancer, and just plan on slowly burning him. I Needle the Shackles he lays down, and counter the proceeding Mental Misstep with REB. He did bounce Grim with a Jace eventually, but he had eaten enough damage to get taken out with my onslaught of burn I had been stockpiling.
Game 3:
I totally aggro rush him with 3 Goblin Guides (!). Gotta love that red player's luck.
Well anyway, that is the report. Sorry if I got a little lazy towards the end, I was getting tired of typing
AH right, still need to post a report as well (Lots on my mind atm)
Sadly, the match between RDW and Burn is slightly in Burn's favor due to being slightly faster. The differences really play out in other matchups, though.
If i may ask one more tiny question, how is RDW compared to burn in the meaning of player's skill required to successfuly pilot it It looks like this is not so much autopilot as burn, but i would like your insight Thanks in advance.
Burn is probably one of the more mindless decks of the format, and so is RDW. I will probably say that RDW is more skillful than Burn, but it really comes down to board states and how you use resources.
hey i just figured i'd post my own take on legacy RDW. this list has changed a tiny bit between the tournaments but it made top 8 in two legacy tournaments and was 2nd at one as well here's the list
i love this deck because it's so fast and fun for me at least lol i decided on 2 searing blaze because the meta at our local card shop doesn't support price of progress very well so it usually get's sided out and magma jet is beatiful in here i would never cut it. i have actually thought of cutting two mountains in favour for 2 more magma jet's i'm still undecided but i'll see. anyways lmk what you think!
Burn is probably one of the more mindless decks of the format, and so is RDW. I will probably say that RDW is more skillful than Burn, but it really comes down to board states and how you use resources.
Burn is more skill based than people give it credit for. It has a very smooth curve, however, so people without much skill can play it. It's one of the few decks that I'd say your skill wins you the match rather than your deck. This is why people like Patrick Sullivan can top 8 with it.
RDW falls under a similar concept, but it lacks some of the things that Burn has. One of the major things being that it relies more on creatures than Burn does. While these can be efficient, it also means you are vulnerable to the many types of creature removal that are represented in the format. Therefore, it may not even matter your skill level.
@Jafoniceld: Your deck is running along more of the burn lines, you might want to migrate to that thread instead.
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History:
Welcome to the Red Deck. Red Deck Wins (RDW) is a highly aggressive R deck that focuses on the creature end of the Magic spectrum. In years past, Red Deck Wins utilized a land destruction package alongside these creature to help generate tempo advantages against the opponent. An example of such a list can be found here:
4 Bloodstained Mire
8 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures: 16
4 Blistering Firecat
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Jackal Pup
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Cursed Scroll
4 Firebolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Pillage
4 Seal of Fire
4 Blood Oath
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Flametongue Kavu
3 Fledgling Dragon
1 Gamble
Source.
However, due to the speed of legacy, most of these spells (Pillage for example) are too slow. Wasteland is still one of the best lands in the game, and is highly playable here. I consider it a pillar of legacy, but others may disagree.
Strategy & General Overview:
As mentioned above, the current RDW is built on speed. You win by using up burn spells to kill opposing walls, and get in with your guys. This not only gets you closer to winning, but slows the opponent's clock as well. Against strategies running a small creature count, or even none at all, burn spells like Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning can just hit the face. This is the beauty of a burn spell, as opposed to something like Swords to Plowshares. While Swords kills nearly anything no problem, a Bolt isn't dead if the opponent doesn't use creatures. Guys with 4 or more toughness, such as the infamous Rhox War Monk, can live through just a single Bolt, sadly, so don't think that burn spells are all upside no downside.
Yet again, I must note how consistent RDW is. Because of this, the archetype appeals to the Magic personality of Spike the most. Due to the nature of the deck (that is, focusing on creature damage), the Red Deck can often suffer far less from topdecks than our sister archetype Burn, and can recover from hate far more easily. Most of the creatures in the deck have haste or hit for heavy damage. This gives RDW a huge amount of inevitability. Another key advantage to the deck is turning off land hate against decks that like Stifle and Wasteland.
Don't be afraid to use up a Fireblast to fuel a Grim Lavamancer, or to get a War Monk out of the way. The deck is highly resilient, especially game one, and has an extremely low curve.
Now, how does the basic skeleton look? Well, I generally prefer the 20/20/20 split, that being 20 land, 20 creatures, and 20 spells. However, this is just my opinion. If you want, you can run 16 creatures and 24 spells. It's up to you, and it just depends on what works. I've been know to bend this a little, too.
Card Analysis:
This is the fun part, let's get to building a deck!
Mountain - This is your best land. It suffers from next to no hate, and fuels your Fireblast.
Scalding Tarn and co. - NO, we are NOT running it for the deck thinning, as that is negligible and not worth the life. These are primarily here for Grim Lavamancer fuel. Against decks like Affinity and Combo Elves, you will like the extra fuel. They aren't mandatory if you cannot afford them, but are very nice if you can get them.
Wasteland - Two major concerns with this card are 1) It doesn't produce red mana and 2) It has anti-synergy with Price of Progress. It can wins games in some metas, and could be a dead card in others. It's very meta dependent, but very good when you can use it effectively. Can also fuel the Lavamancer.
Keldon Megaliths - The card is slow, has anti-synergy with Price of Progress, turns on opposing land hate, and is expensive to use. Don't run it.
Barbarian Ring - This is an interesting one. On one hand, it seems terrible, for not fueling your Fireblast and all the other reasons listed above with the Megaliths. However, this doesn't slow you down, and can deal a finishing blow. I personally wouldn't run it in here just due to all the anti-synergies within the deck.
Shivan Gorge - No. Highly inefficient, susceptible to Wasteland, and cannot produce red.
Teetering Peaks - Not horrible. I've seen some builds use it quite well.
1CMC:
Goblin Guide - One of the, if not THE best red creature printed in a good long time. The drawback is negligible due to the fact that the opponent should be dead before it grants them too much of an advantage. He is highly efficient, and with 2 hits he is suddenly a more effective Bolt. This little goblin is one of the few absolute staples of the deck. Run 4 or don't play RDW.
Grim Lavamancer - Another of the absolute staple. The Lavamancer does exactly what you want: Burns guys out of the way to get in with you own and beats face himself if you are tapped out/don't have fuel. He can also burn the face when it comes to that. Auto 3-4 of.
Figure of Destiny - Another very good beater. He gives the deck more midgame presence, but can hurt speed. I personally don't run him, but that doesn't mean he is bad by any means.
Mogg Fanatic - Why did Wizards get rid of damage on the stack?? WHY WIZARDS?? This guy used to be amazing. No, scratch that. Amazing+1. Moggy here was what helped make this deck a major contender back in the day. Now, well... he is slightly inefficient and can't do much on his own. I've been trying to replace him ever since the new damage rules came out.
Jackal Pup - If you want to go oldschool, check this guy out. He was a staple for many years. However, Jackal Pup tends to be outclassed nowadays. Feel free to run him if you want to, though. Pup still is pretty good, but I would mostly recommend him for a meta void of aggro.
Tattermunge Maniac - Generally worse than Pup. Why? He dies. Very very easily. At least with the Pup you can just not attack until it is favorable. I do not recommend this guy.
Spark Elemental - You might as well just run another Lightning Bolt, or one of it's many brothers. Just say no.
Magus of the Scroll - He is okay, but I would generally just recommend Cursed Scroll over him.
Furnace Scamp - A new addition, and this little Scamp (:stupid:) seems like he can be very good. First, he wants to get in for damage. This is good, because that is exactly what RDW wants to do. Not only that, but one Scamp DOES get in, he is like a Lightning Bolt, but better. I am currently testing him, and I will get back to you.
2CMC:
Keldon Marauders - This is another perfect card for the deck. Highly damage efficient, and can do more than just one thing. Marauders can get in for that highly efficient damage he is so well known for, or he can stay back and block that huge beasty about to kill you (while STILL getting in for damage). I would say another auto-include, but I could see some builds not running it.
Hellspark Elemental - Another perfect beater. In the long run, he is less efficient than a Ball Lightning, but we don't care about the long run. We want fast damage, and that is what he gives. His unearth promotes the midgame even more, as well as making it hard to trade favorably with him short of a Swords to Plowshares. Sure, he has anti-synergy with the Lavamancer, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't run him. You have plenty of fuel anyway.
Plated Geopede - Straight from Standard, we present: Landfall! This guy can be pretty vicious when paired with the fetchlands. If you want to run him, I recommend a higher land-count build, perhaps even featuring Wasteland.
Kargan Dragonlord - I am personally not a fan of this card. Unlike Figure, Kargan is a turn slower on almost all that he does, and can only do things at sorcery speed. He is still a decent card, just nothing to write home about.
Ember Hauler - He is a walking Shock. Not much else to say about him. While being somewhat slow, he could potentially see play.
Blood Knight - This guy is pretty efficient. It's a metagame choice, but in general there are just better options. Blood Knight is always solid, though.
Stigma Lasher - Like Blood Knight above, Lasher is solid. However, he too is outclassed most of the time.
Slith Firewalker - Oldschool, and generally outclassed.
Immolating Souleater - Another new addition that needs testing. Highly explosive.
3CMC:
Ball Lightning - A classic, and still quite effective. He can be killed easily, so he generally isn't run nowadays, most favoring his little brother Hellspark Elemental.
Boggart Ram-Gang - I haven't actually used this guy, but he is basically a more stable (and less explosive) Ball Lightning. Unfortunately, most creatures can just plain outclass him. Still, he is solid in the correct metagame.
Ashenmoor Gouger - The even MORE sturdy (and even LESS explosive) Ball Lightning. Gouger is a bit slow, coming active on turn 4 and all. Like the above, he is a metagame choice.
Countryside Crusher - Another slow one. However, he grows quickly and prevents you from drawing any more land, plus fuels Grim Lavamancer. I haven't actually tried this guy, but he seems pretty good.
Hell's Thunder - Another Ball Lightning brother. This guy hits for more than Boggart Ram-Gang, but dies afterward. He has evasion and is reusable (but for a steep cost.) Overall, solid and quite worthy of a 3 CMC slot.
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage - She turns every card in your deck into an Incinerate. Jaya also has good synergy with the Lavamancer. However, like most of these 3 CMC guys, she is slow. While she promotes the mid-game, she feels like more of a sidebaord card if anything.
Fulminator Mage - If you go the oldschool disruption route, this is generally the land destruction card you will want.
Magus of the Moon - While the Magus isn't something I would normally run, in overdeveloped metagames he could win games on his own. Being a 2/2 on top of his Moon effect is what makes him so great. While not the fastest thing ever, he can provide the disruption needed to win in certain matchups.
Manic Vandal - Almost always a sideboard card and almost always outclassed by Smash to Smithereens or Shattering Spree.
4CMC:
This deck will rarely ever go beyond the 3CMC threshold, but there are a few that might be worth going over for in some metas, generally the combo-light ones. If you run any, I recommend running a more land-heavy version.
Flametongue Kavu - This is usually worth it in a Zoo and Merfolk-heavy meta. He gets you some favorable trades and helps keep the pressure up through the midgame.
Avalanche Riders - The Riders are golden in midrange metas. You can screw up peoples mana bases and get a block/fast damage all in one go. In other metas he just comes down too late.
Giant Solifuge - Yet another Ball Lightning, this time hard to kill. However, this spider is generally just too slow.
Hero of Oxid Ridge - Generally worse than Solifuge, which is saying something.
What if I splash?
Well, you get a few different options for each color.
W White:
White is probably the #1 color to splash should you choose to do so.
Steppe Lynx - A highly efficient beater than gives a brutal beatdown paired with fetches. Should you run it, you will probably want more fetches than actual land.
Isamaru, Hound of Konda - A very effective beater. Don't be afraid to run 4, as they die very easily.
Elite Vanguard/Savannah Lions - A bit like Isamaru, but just not as much.
Ranger of Eos - Slow, but gives a ton of reach to the deck.
G Green:
Green is the 2nd best color to splash for.
Tarmogoyf - Very very very very very efficient. Quite expensive, though.
Quirion Dryad - Good alongside Goyf or just as a budget replacement. She grows with the game and gets quite big quite fast.
Bloodbraid Elf - A bit expensive, but good.
U Blue:
Unfortunately, Blue doesn't offer much in the way of creatures.
Looter il-Kor - Filtering while keeping the damage up.
B Black:
Black has better options than blue, that is for sure. Not all the creatures are great for this deck, but Black shines with it's spells.
Anathemancer - Punishes greedy manabases.
Dark Confidant - Perfect for this deck. Refresh the hand and provide the beatdown.
Carrion Feeder - Gets value from your self-kill guys.
Rakdos Guildmage - A decent bear that fills the graveyard. Also has synergy with Unearth guys.
Vampire Lacerator/Carrion Feeder - Decent 1CMC beater.
1CMC:
Lightning Bolt - Best spell in the deck. Never play less than 4
Chain Lightning - A Lightning Bolt at sorcery speed. That is still great.
Rift Bolt - I know this is really a CMC of 3, but you will rarely hardcast it. Some people don't like the slowness of the suspend. I don't quite mind it.
Lava Spike - This is better for a straight-up burn deck than RDW. It's inability to get creatures out of the way is not very good.
Brute Force - An interesting take on Lightning Bolt. It's dependence on creatures hurts its playability, but the combat trick is nifty.
Reckless Charge - Like Burte Force, this cards playability is hindered by its reliance on creatures.
Burst Lightning - Not exactly ideal. Even if you are running a budget deck, Incinerate will generally be a better choice. Not the worst card in the world, though.
Reckless Abandon - I have no experience with this card at all. It seems good on paper, being a Goblin Grenade for any creature.
Shock - There are so many strictly and generally better versions of this card, such as Burst Lightning above, it is never justified playing it.
Forked Bolt - Almost never playable. If it were to cost 1 more and did 1 more damage, I might say differently.
Firebolt - Just not good enough for legacy anymore.
Flame Slash - The fact that it cannot hit players means you should almost never run it.
Galvanic Blast - Unless you are playing "Affinity Deck Wins", which I can see the merits of, this is usually just a Shock.
2CMC:
Incinerate - Solid card. Good replacement for Rift Bolt if you don't like it, and decent for budget decks. All around a solid card.
Magma Jet - It's like an Incinerate, but you drop 1 damage for card selection. Red could do with card selection, but do to a lot more creatures being X/3s rather than X/2s nowadays, I am not found of this. However, this is still highly playable, and it is totally up to you if you want to run it.
Price of Progress - One of the BEST cards in the deck. Price of Progress can totally blow some decks out of the water. I personally always maindeck 3-4, but some metagames don't justify that, and 2-3 is more appropriate.
Searing Blaze - A new player, and quite decent. It fits well with out gameplan of burn guys out of the way to hit the face. However, the need for a land coming into play can hinder it somewhat. If you choose to run this, I would think maybe 21 land would be appropriate.
Flame Rift - Not all that good. It cannot hit players, and loses you races in the aggro matchup.
Sudden Shock - Too much mana for too little damage.
Arc Trail - This does not deal enough damage for modern day legacy creatures.
Lash Out - You run a lean curve (with the exception of Fireblast), so this will rarely return back to your hand, and it cannot hit players.
3+CMC:
Flame Javelin - Good damage to mana ratio, but generally too slow.
Staggershock - A bit like Flame Javelin, but it gives up the Javelin's sheer power for the ability to get ride of multiple threats.
Char - With the above two card being printed, this is no longer playable. Flavourful, but unplayable, sadly.
Pillage - In legacy, and especially the current metagame, land destruction for this much mana isn't fast enough to make a difference. If you want land destruction, check out Wasteland and Raze.
Browbeat - Severely overrated, especially by new players. The fact that it gives an opponent a choice is really really bad. This does not give you reach, it gives you the illusion of reach. Besides, we already have reach due to cards like Grim Lavamancer and Hellspark Elemental.
Flames of the Blood Hand - While it looks good on paper, it doesn't usually work the way you want it to. It also cannot hit creatures, which isn't helping its case.
Hammer of Bogardan - Oldschool choice. Never run more than one if you do run it.
Flamebreak/Volcanic Fallout - We rarely need sweepers, but if you feel your meta calls for it, go ahead.
Fireblast - Amazing card. It finished the game turns ahead of when they should be won, and also wins them out of nowhere. Don't be afraid to use this on creatures, or to get Lavamancer food, either.
Koth of the Hammer - A new player. I haven't personally used him, but he looks nice.
Sulfuric Vortex - There are mixed feelings about this enchantment. If you have extra room, there are worse things you can be running. Generally a sideboard card.
Seal of Fire - Decent card. A bit like Shock, but you can invest the mana ahead of time.
Cursed Scroll - Oldschool. While it may be slow, it can really pack a punch with it's card advantages it provides. It can be good in a control-heavy metagame as well.
Blood Moon - Because we have no way of getting it out early, by the time it doest come down, it is too late to make much of a difference.
Pyromancer's Swath - It is slow, and we do not run enough spells.
Rise of the Hobgoblins - Rarely will we ever get enough mana for this.
Umezawa's Jitte - While this is just a plain ridiculous card, we tend to not use equipment. Why? Well, most of our creatures don't tend to stick around, and one of those that does (Grim Lavamancer) doesn't attack very often.
Bonesplitter - You may ask yourselves why this is getting the same ratting as the all-mighty Jitte. Well, it costs less to equip, so it is more realistic to cast something like a Hellspark Elemental and be able to equip it. Still generally not worth it.
Now, that is all well and good. But you say you want to see some example decklists?
I'll start with mine, a more straight-forward build:
Land: 21
11 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
Creatures: 20
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Pithing Needle
3 Shattering Spree
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Price of Progress
1 Searing Blaze
This is my build I am currently running. I will try and keep the list and description up to date.
Now, I am a very big advocate of the 20/20/20 split of land/creatures/spells. I feel like it grants me a lot of consistency. Might just be me, though.I've recently cut back on the lands, favoring more spells. I felt like I was drawing too many land. 19 seems to be the right amount for right now. Figure of Destiny ended up taking the old Mogg Fanatic slot. Searing Blaze is doing excellently right now. 2 feels like the right amount for a few reasons. 1) You cannot play it if they don't have a creature, and 2) You don't want to dead draw it too much when you cannot use the landfall. Vexing Shusher > Red Elemental Blast is a response to the increased play of Mental Misstep. Once the hype dies down, I will probably switch it back.
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Steppe Lynx
Spells: 24
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Price of Progress
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Searing Blaze
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Arc Trail
1 Sulfuric Vortex
Source.
This list is one that runs our friend Steppe Lynx, as well as the cool little burn spell Lightning Helix. Aimed at the face, Helix is a 6 point life swing. Against a creature, the Helix is a huge race swinger. As you can see, Stefano chose to cut 4 creatures in favor of more burn, at least as compared to my list. I'm personally not a fan of Lava Spike, as it's inability to hit creatures hampers it's playability in this deck. But, if it works for you, it works. Here, the fetch lands serve a dual purpose. Not only do they fuel the Lavamancer, but they allow the Steppe Lynx (right) to swing for a ludicrous 4 damage a turn starting on turn 2!
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
Spells: 25
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
1 Browbeat
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Sylvan Library
Land: 19
8 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
3 Krosan Grip
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Anarchy
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sulfuric Vortex
Source.
Let's get this out of the way now: adding G gets you Tarmogoyf. Yes, yes, we are all tired of the whole "add Green for Goyf!" comment, but here it is actually legit. He is an above the curve beater that likes getting in unblocked and unopposed. Sylvan Library is played in this version to give some extra reach, but it is not required. Another card to look into for this archetype is Kird Ape. You also gain some seriously good sideboard material in Krosan Grip and Tin Street Hooligan. Definitely worth the splash if you want to do it.
RDW vs Burn:
What is the difference between Red Deck Wins and Burn? Is it significant? Why would I choose one over the other? I've played both decks frequently, and I am going to outline the pros and cons to both.
RDW
Pros:
*Consistent
-Compared to Burn, which has a lot of big, one-shot spells, RDW runs less powerful, but reusable threats. This makes it less draw-dependent, and often more consistent.
*Fights through hate
-Because the deck isn't just focusing on getting through with fast damage, it can afford the time to answer hate. RDW can also often just fight through a lot of the commonly sided cards.
*Can afford to kill creatures
-Burn often times cannot use many of it's spells on creatures, so they will often add some kind of sweeper. RDW actually incorporates creature killing into it's game plan, so you won't "waste" fuel doing this.
Cons:
*Can't race combo G1
-We are about a turn slower than Burn, but more consistent. That extra turn better enables Burn to race combo better than RDW can game 1.
*"Dies to Removal"
-Burn doesn't run many creatures, so it doesn't get hurt by creature removal as badly.
Burn
Pros:
*Very fast
-Burn card win with 7 cards and one land. It has the ability to be as fast as many combo decks.
*Disregards tempo
-Due to it's utter lack of creatures, Burn doesn't suffer from tempo disruption.
*Virtual card advantage
-Because Burn runs very few creatures, it renders opposing removal dead. This gives the deck a "virtual card advantage", which is very helpful.
Cons:
*Suffers from poor draws
-Drawing a land at the wrong time can often lead to game losses
*Suffers from hate
-Burn has a hard time with hate cards. It can get through them with cards like Ratchet Bomb and Pithing Needle, but taking up the time to use these can often allow the opponent to stabilize.
Matchup Analysis:
Here I will cover a few of the matchups that you may run into in the tournament scene. I will give a basic outline of the game plan, what you should side, and how favorable the matchup is: = Very Favorable, = Favorable, = Neutral, = Slightly unfavorable, = Very unfavorable.
Merfolk:
Matchup (Mono): Neutral
Matchup (Splash): Slightly favorable
Sideboard in: Pithing Needle, Red Elemental Blast, Artifact destruction.
Gameplan: This is a matchup that will take a bit of practice to master. The main thing you want to do is burn away the Merfolk players Lords before they pump all of their other little fishies to an untouchable range. When a Standstill comes down, hold off on the damage. Just cumulate your burn spells in your hand until the Merfolk player gets blown out. Also, just pray a Kira doesn't come down, as you really want to save as many burn spells as you can.
In games 2 and 3, use Pithing Needle up on AEther Vial, and if they get one out, Umezawa's Jitte. You can also call Mutavault or (against splash versions) fetchlands, to gain tempo. Use up Red Elemental Blasts on counter magic aimed at key burn spells, and the feared Kira. Do not be too aggressive with the Elemental Blasts, as they are pivotal cards in games 2 and 3.
Countertop:
Matchup: Very unfavorable
Sideboard in: Pithing Needle, Red Elemental Blast, Vexing Shusher.
Gameplan: Ugh... Counterbalance Top has basically everything against us. I am a highly experienced Red Deck Wins player, and I still have issues against this deck. A Counter/Top player can counter half your deck with their engine up, can wipe your field, takes care of Hellspark Elemental with ease, and has TWO massive blockers, one of which is the dreaded Rhox War Monk. Even as abysmal as the matchup is, it isn't impossible. I know that you, as a red player, hate this, but this matchup requires a lot of it: Thought. You need to pay attention to where they put what, what they draw, how they got what on top of their deck, ect. Take notes if you need to. Once you have that down, you need to try and win quickly, before they get out a War Monk, as that is bad news for you.
Once you have sided, your job gets a bit easier, but not by much. Pithing Needle should almost always come down and declare Sensei's Divining Top. Once that is out of the way, other options would be Umezawa's Jitte and Thopter Foundry (should they run them.) Red Elemental Blast makes your job at killing the Rhox War Monks easier, as well as a Counterbalance should they not have the Top yet, or if you neutered the Top with Pithing Needle. If you lose to this deck a lot, do not give up hope. With enogh practice you can make this matchup as good as a 40:60, which is pretty decent for what it is.
Standstill Variants:
Matchup: Slightly favorable
Sideboard in: Pithing Needle, Red Elemental Blast, Vexing Shusher. Artifact hate if running Dreadstill or Umezawa's Jitte.
Gameplan: Believe it or not, this is a quite good matchup for the Red player. You are barely affected by Standstill. Why? Because you don't actually NEED to do anything but sit back and draw cards while you get poked at every turn. In fact, I would nearly say that playing the Standstill is a misplay against us. All you need to do is sit back, gather land, and draw burn. Once you feel primed, go for your alpha strike, perhaps suspending some Rift Bolt beforehand. Sure, your opponent gets to draw some cards, but they won't be able to counter your whole onslaught of burn. Once you have burnt them down to a crisp, if they are not dead already, they will most likely be with a few topdecks. However, builds running Stifle/Naught as a win condition are slightly less favorable, simply because it's difficult to race that combo if it goes off turn 2.
This matchup only gets better once you get to side. Pithing Needle naming their Mishra's Factorys only slows them down even more, and getting in the artifact hate for the Dreadnoughts is also nice. Red Elemental Blast just counters key things, like a Force of Will on a Fireblast, or a Stifle for the aforementioned wincondition. If they go with the Tarmogoyf win condition, it gets a bit more tricky. If they just use the Lhurgoyf as a meat-shield, then hold back your guys and just chuck burn spells at the opponent's face (unless they have a Standstill out, at which point you use the previously mentioned method), unless you have enough guys to swing for game. If they turn it sideways, just race them, it's not that hard.
Combo Elves:
Matchup: Very favorable
Sideboard in: Extra burn, Mindbreak Trap.
Gameplan: This matchup is a cakewalk if you play it correctly. Do not use up a single piece of burn on the opponent, save that for the creatures. Yes, that includes Fireblast. If the Combo Elves player cannot keep a creature out, they can not win. Grim Lavamancer becomes a key figure in this matchup, and should be played as soon as possible. If the Elves player tried to just straight-up bum rush you, aim burn at the lords and mass mana producers, as well as pieces of the Heritage Druid/Nettle Sentinel engine, namely the Druid.
For games 2 and 3, carry on with the same game plan. If you side extra burn, side out some of your creatures for it. And remember: If you don't let them keep creatures out they cannot win. Even if they do go off, those of you siding Mindbreak Trap won't care much. Oh sure, they have a whole army of Elves, but odds are you can burn out the opponent next turn anyway. Also, on the off chance you side sweepers, this would be a good time to bring them in.
Affinity:
Matchup: Very favorable
Sideboard in: Pithing Needle, extra Price of Progress, Artifact destrution, namely Shattering Spree, potentially Red Elemental Blast.
Gameplan: Alright, Affinity is a very easy win from my experience. Their creatures are sub-par, the deck is explosive but inconsistent, you main 3-4 very good cards against them in Price of Progress, and side even more favorable things. In game one, all you really need to do is race. Keep their guys off the board to prevent Arcbound Ravager from... Ravaging you, and to prevent Cranial Plating from blowing you out. As I said above, Price of Progress is a huge blowout card against an Affinity player that you most-likely are packing 3-4 copies of main-board. Be sure to hold onto them until you can get maximum damage, as they can hit for up to 6-8 damage in one shot. If they cast an Arcbound Ravager, feel free to just pop it while the Ravager is on the stack, as they can just eat all their land in response. Etched Champion, a new addition to the archetype, should be the only problem main-board, as it is pretty scary with a Cranial Plating. However, by the time they are swinging with the Champion, you probably can just win with a Price of Progress and a few other spells.
In games 2 and 3, the matchup only gets better. Shattering Spree just absolutely wrecks the Affinity player's manabase, and potentially everything else as well. After playing Pithing Needle you should probably name Arcbound Ravager or Cranial Plating, either is acceptable. It must be noted that the control variants of the deck are a completely different beast.
High Tide:
Matchup: Slightly Unfavorable
Sideboard in: Red Elemental Blast, Mindbreak Trap, Pithing Needle (For Candelabra of Tawnos builds.)
Gameplan: Like most combo match ups, this is just about racing game one. The High Tide combo is thankfully a little slower than a more traditional storm deck (like TES). All you need to be focused on game 1 is throwing Lightning Bolts and friends at the opponent's head. Keldon Marauders and Goblin Guide are also very good here. Grim Lavamancer tends to not be worth it, as he slows you down more than anything.
Post-sideboard, you are looking at a bit more favorable match. Red Elemental Blast should be shot at the Tide player's High Tides, or sometimes their Time Spirals. Mindbreak Trap tends to not be worth it, as it can be countered quite easily due to all their drawing via cantrips and Time Spiral. Tormod's Crypt can be used to snipe the opponent's graveyard in response to a Time Spiral, but also tends to not be worth the card slots. For all these hate cards, but sure to only side out anything that is not putting out enough damage, otherwise you are just slowing yourself down. After all, none of these are auto-win cards, they are just there to disrupt the opponent while you race. All in all, not too terrible a match up, as far as combo goes.
Zoo:
Matchup: Slightly Unfavorable
Sideboard in: Flamebreak and co., Tormod's Crypt, extra burn.
Gameplan: Our biggest issue against Zoo is that they have access to the same exact burn spells we do, but their creatures plain outclass ours. Wild Nacatl (right) is like a bigger Goblin Guide, Tarmogoyf is flat-out amazing, and Knight of the Reliquary is nearly impossible to kill when it comes down. The other issue is that builds running Lightning Helix have access to life gain. All you need to do in this matchup is stick to your primary game plan: Burn what creatures you can out of the way, and swing for the fences damn to consequences. Your biggest advantage over the Zoo player is speed. All your creatures may be smaller than theirs, but yours are faster. After all, it's not the size that matters, it's how you use it
For games 2 and 3, you really don't have access to much. Tormod's Crypt and it's variants can help make Tarmogoyf and the Knights of a manageable size. Because the Crypt costs 0 to play, I highly recommend you just keep it in hand until they play one of these two beasties. Grim Lavamancer can also help keep the 'Goyf down to a manageable size. If Zoo is even remotely popular in your area, I highly recommend a sweeper that hits for 3, like Flamebreak. We also have a small advantage over Zoo: Our manabase. Zoo has an incredibly fragile manabase. For this reason, I also recommend a Wasteland build.
Junk and Rock Variants:
Matchup: Very favorable
Sideboard in: Tormod's Crypt, Pithing Needle, Artifact destruction.
Gameplan: What is Junk? What is Rock? It's hard to cover this matchup due to the sheer mass of variants on the deck. Some use the traditional route of discard, removal, and big creatures. Others go for a more land destruction orientated game plan. More recently, there are ones making use of Stoneforge Mystic and it's equipment-toolboxing powers. Then there are ones like Aggro-Loam which focus on the decks namesake, Life from the Loam.
However, despite all these differences, the different variants, for the most part, have a similar skeleton and game plan. Most of these decks are based in BGW colors, but sometimes drop one in favor of another. The main beaters of the decks tend to be fat midrange creatures, such as Knight of the Reliquary (Left) and Tarmogoyf. Variants also tend to run the same sorts of cards as well, such as Thoughtseize, Vindicate, and Dark Confidant. This means we can get an idea on how to fight these decks in a wide generalization. Because most are based in three colors, players using these decks tend to use a lot of dual lands. Price of Progress is always happy to punish these greedy manabases. Our creatures also tend to be faster than theirs, and we tend to just be faster in general. A lot of the cards in Rock and Junk decks do not hurt us very much, either. Discard is the biggest thing that phases RDW, but even that damage can be mitigated. Stick to your primary gameplan and you should be just fine.
Graveyard hate is what you want to bring in for games 2 and 3, but you need to judge this based on the matchup. Some Stoneforge decks, for example, don't use the graveyard as much. In general, though, the graveyard hate like the Crypts will make the heavy-hitters of the deck, primarily 'Goyf and Knight, a fightable size. Like in the Zoo matchup, be sure to keep these in hand as long as possible. Hurting the opposing graveyard can also hurt the Life from the Loam variants as well. Pithing Needle will be good in matchups using a lot of equipment, like the aforementioned Stoneforge Mystic packages. Use this added hate to increase your advantages over the opponent and win.
Natural Order Variants:
Matchup: Neutral
Sideboard in: Price of Progress, Searing Blaze, Red Elemental Blast
Gameplan: The two biggest decks utilizing Natural Order (right) in the format are NO RUG and Bant. These decks are good right now due to the multitude of people running Mental Misstep over cards like Daze. This allows the deck to run Natural Order out there with little to fear other than an opposing Force of Will. Natural Order decks tend to be aggro/control decks first, with NO to clean up later in the game. Our biggest concern is the spell itself, so try and keep their green creatures off the board. While this isn't always possible (Tarmogoyf), it is somewhat effective while we try and get enough damage in before they race us with Progenitus. Yes, I said 'race'. You can race it. If you think they have the NO in hand (with your epic people-reading skills), just try and throw burn spells and fast creatures at their face as fast as possible.
Post board, the extra Searing Blaze will help you race them while also keeping their board clear, and extra Price of Progress will just plain help the race. Blasts take out the Forces when they are countering critical spells. I wouldn't recommend a whole set for this matchup, though. Probably just 2-3. I dreaded writing about this matchup, simply because there is so little to be said about it. But that's all there is to it. Keep up the pressure with your guys and you should be able to swing this matchup more in your favor.
Stoneblade Variants:
Matchup (UW): Neutral
Matchup (BW): Slightly favorable
Matchup (Patriot): Neutral
Sideboard in: Pithing Needle, Searing Blaze, artifact hate, Red Elemental Blast (UW only)
Gameplan: Our matchup favorability vastly differs depending on what version the opponent is using. Against Patriot and BW, you want to try to preform your usual game plan, burning away guys and hitting in for damage. Just try to make sure that Sword of Fire and Ice or Umezawa's Jitte don't see the light of day.
UW is a little different. It functions more like a traditional control deck, with Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull. This means you need a different approach. So, against this version I advise you to hit the ground running with whatever your fastest guys are, and try to win quickly. Once they land a Stoneforge Mystic, no matter what they get, it needs to go. If they land a Batterskull, it becomes extremely difficult (but not impossible) to win. Even if they didn't get the Skull with their Mystic, they most likely have it in their hand ready to go. Grim Lavamancer is your friend in this matchup.
Post board, everything becomes a little easier. Pithing Needle is very important for this matchup. White has a lot of hosers for us, and many of them (Circle of Protection: Red) are shut down by Needle. Needle also shuts of their equipment, meaning you can spare a little burn for the face, now. UW will still be problematic, but the Red Elemental Blasts go a long way against this version. Remember, BW Stoneblade and Patriot don't use as much countermagic, so the Blasts should probably not come in here.
Well, that is all I am going to write for now. I hope you found this educational, and I also hope you want to try the deck out now. If I made any typos or if something felt awkward to read, please PM me or post here. Thank you for reading!
NeoFinnity... A Control Affinity Primer
I actually think Wasteland and Port are extremely relevant in this deck still.
I guess just to get it out there, here's a Boros list I was thinking about for a while:
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Figure of Destiny
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Ranger of Eos
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Path to Exile
3 Reckless Charge
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Plateau
3 Mountain
1 Plains
It's more on the RDW side then on the Burn side.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
People play around Price of Progress pretty consistently as result of Wasteland. You may get your opponent game 1 but game 2 usually Price of Progress drops to 4 at best. Path to Exile performs that function against all those decks as well by letting you out muscle your opponent. I can honestly say that Price of Progress is always worse than you want it to be.
Searing Blaze is better out of the board always. It is an awkward card to run MD if there are decks that do not get blown out by Blaze. In fact, only Tribal, Zoo and Affinity actually suffer to Blaze. Tarmogoyf consistently lives through it.
There are decks other than aggro, so I think you want to be able to beat them too.
All of that said, I do have a couple of questions:
First, as someone who plays Legacy Burn I'm wondering how much success you've had overall with running so many creatures. The few creatures Burn runs are all capable of getting in obscene amounts of early damage, generally before blocks come down (Goblin Guide), have built-in evasion in the form of direct damage (Grimmy), or at least have the potential to get much bigger in the late game and smash through (Figure of Destiny, though, admittedly, he is the weakest of the bunch thus far).
With most of our creatures able to take care of themselves to one degree or another, that leaves our actual burn spells free to go straight for the head (or the head of the dreaded Pancake Flipper, as the case may be).
So my question is, when running so many more creatures, do you find yourself playing you're burn spells more as removal (ala a more Zoo-like strategy?) or as burn? I mean, I know that Goyf can eventually get big, and an early Kird Ape is nothing to scoff at, but I can definitely imagine times where, in order to get the most out of your creature investment, you're going to want/ have to clear your guys a path, which leaves less burn in your deck to aim at the face.
Lastly, how is you MU vs all the Junk/ Rock out there that's seen a huge up-swing in popularity recently? If you were going to add another MU to the Primer I'd definitely start there.
Sig by me!
Currently Playing:
:symr::symg::symb: Living End Modern
:symu:, :symu::symw: Merfolk Fish ("Marine Freaks") Legacy, Modern
Death and Taxes Legacy
RDW/ Burn ("Peking Duck w/ 8 Pancakes") Legacy, Modern
:symu::symb::symr: Worldgorger Dragon Vintage
:symu::symr::symw: Narset EDH
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg: Cube
I'm just curious what you mean by everything? He is generally only outclassed by New Horizons-esq creatures in my experience. Of course, I will test the Figure in his place and see how he does.
Also, I was running Wasteland, but I ended up removing it.
How is Reckless Charge doing? Like I mentioned in the primer, I feel like creature-reliant spells are a bit weak. You could also probably cut a Plateau for another Mountain if you want. I've always been happy with just 3 Plateau.
Thanks for the props, mate! Always glad to hear some positive feedback Also yeah, Portland is awesome
As for your question, that is what separates RDW from Burn. It uses it's burn spells primarily to clear the path for your creatures to get through. As I said in the intro, this not only speeds up our clock, but it slows the opponent's clock as well. Of course, you can always just chuck burn spells at the face if they don't have any guys out. Just be careful to always keep one or two to burn the guys coming down as well.
Due to Rock and Junk decks greedy manabases, that is another matchup Price of Progress makes very favorable. Not only that, but the opposing disruption, short of discard, doesn't phase us as much either. The only problem is, like Zoo, most of our creatures get outclassed by Knights and Goyfs. Their mana base can be fragile like Zoos, though, so Wasteland could be another good metagame choice. Funny thing though, I was just thinking of adding that matchup this morning. I'll see what I can do.
It's fantastic to see that the Sligh/RDW archetype finally has a good primer and thread here on MtG Salvation
I've been playing this archetype in tournaments for quite a while now and I really believe it to be a superior and more aggressive option compared to Burn. I never seemed to do terribly well with Burn in the local tournaments I attended (30-40 people on average, well developed metagame) but Sligh has taken me to Top 4 a good half a dozen times or so in the last six months playing in tournaments once a week.
I believe the reason for this is that Sligh's more creature based strategy allows for a higher damage per card ratio than a more spell based Burn deck. Hellspark Elemental can get in for 6 damage out of a single card, as can Ball Lightning, Grim Lavamancer, and even Jackal Pup in most cases. While this creature based strategy does make you more vulnerable to removal, with a high enough threat density (20 to 30 creatures) the opponent will never have enough removal to deal with them all. Most decks in the format run no more than 8 creature removal spells, 4 in most cases, so there are very few decks properly equipped to deal with a creature barrage this fast and aggressive.
I think this is why Sligh has performed so much better than Burn for me.
The only things I think your primer is really missing are Reckless Abandon in the "1 CMC Spells" section and Cursed Scroll in the "Other Permanents" section. Reckless Abandon can be great alternative to Price of Progress in underdeveloped metagames (especially if you run a lot of creatures like Keldon Marauders, Hellspark Elemental, and Ball Lightning that would naturally die on their own at the end of turn).
Regarding the Scroll, I know it's a pretty old school choice, but if the metagame has a lot of control decks that board in Circle of Protection: Red, a lot of discard decks that shred your hand early, a lot of Dredge and/or Reanimator decks that like to pull out Iona, or any quantity of Death & Taxes than Cursed Scroll can be an excellent alternative to Sulfuric Vortrex. It's not as efficient in terms of mana to damage ratios, but lacking self damage, being able to get it out on turn 1, having the option of hitting creatures, and being a colorless source can save your backside now and then if your meta features decks like the ones mentioned.
That said, here's the list I've been running for quite a while now...
4 Goblin Guide
4 Jackal Pup
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Ball Lightning
[2 Artifacts]
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
[20 Lands]
3 Teetering Peaks
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
9 Mountain
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Mindbreak Trap
This list, while a bit old school in some card choices, has performed extremely well for me in the current meta. The sheer level of aggression and speed is very difficult for most decks to deal with and it goldfishes turn 4 on average with the occasional turn 3 wins here and there. And when things don't go quite as planned and the opponent has more removal than usual, having 5 sources of reusable direct damage (3 Grim Lavamancer and 2 Cursed Scroll) is infinitely valuable.
So yeah, it's a little oldchool, but it's been performing well for me and I think it's a lot of fun to play
At this point the only changes I'm considering making are swapping out the 3 Pyroblast in the board for 3 Vexing Shusher. I'm not sure if this is the right call or not, but I haven't seen anyone playing Chill in my meta over the past 6 months so I'm thinking swapping the Blasts out for Shushers might be a good idea.
Hey, I remember you from The Source! (I use a promo Grim Lavamancer as my avatar there...) Yeah, I'm very happy I was able to crank this out. I like having my work published for the world to see
I completely agree with you. The reason this archetype seems to preform so much better than your run-of-the-mill Burn deck is the higher cost:damage ratio. Everything in this deck just does that much more to a player than a burn spell. We also have a better aggro matchup, seeing at though that our main game plan is burning guys out of the way (as compared to the 'Bolt the Face' playstyle of Burn.)
Those are good card suggestions, thanks for suggesting them. Will add them to the primer shortly. Yeah, Scroll is old, but in metas that are filled with a lot of control, I can see it working still. CoP: Red isn't an issue though, because we have Pithing Needle. It's effectiveness against said card, though, isn't exactly a strike against it.
IDK, Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast still seem excellent to me. You aren't just hitting countermagic with it. You can also hit Rhox War Monk, Counterbalance, and any number of Merfolk. It's still very solid, and I don't think that replacing them with Vexing Shusher is the right play. Just my opinion, though.
Alright, thanks man.
Rift Bolt > Lava Spike is here because of the Rift's ability to hit creatures (which is a primary goal of this deck.) You can run Lava Spike if you want, but I feel like Rift Bolt is just better for the game plan. As I mentioned in the primer, Mogg Fanatic is really lackluster now, and Furnace Scamp fits perfectly with out gameplan. It seemed like an obvious switch.
Sideboards vary with the metas. If you feel like your meta has a need for Sulfuric Votrex, then feel free to board it. I'm personally not a fan, just because it's so slow...
The matchups are far from similar. Burn and RDW have two completely different playstyles... and builds.
I haven't tested the deck, and can't claim to know it's in's and outs, but I have played Zoo, and I know my way around Burn. The above lists are all variations on Sligh, which fits the space between Burn/Zoo. The problem is generally the deck will play like a poor version of either. There are matchups this improves, and matchups it worsens, but in general, you run in to the problem that you can't dedicate yourself enough to either plan, and this results in less effective draws.
I think you might be overselling the Landstill Matchup. I only say that because Burn generally has a fantastic matchup against them, much like you've stated, but the closer you get to Zoo (aka the more creatures you include), the further that gets from the truth. The more creatures you run the harder it is to rely on consistent enough draws to win out under a standstill. This is also why you have a better Zoo matchup than Burn. Zoo is Burn with persistent threats. It varies the matchups, but the important part is your matchups are better for being closer to a mirror match.
Similarly I think you'll find in testing against the newer Affinity to be pretty rough on you. Their critters are better than yours, and they are much faster than you are. And you do not have the extra help of having all your damage be alternative removal. It's not a great matchup for Burn either, but Affinity got a lot of new toys, and they are going to be much harder to push around.
And much like Burn I think you're going to need to rely more and more on Vexing Shusher, Mental Misstep makes REB a much tougher choice in the board, and is only really effective in the High Tides matchup. Whereas Shusher will protect you from Counterbalance, Chalice, Misstep and everything else.
Currently Running
Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves
Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave
Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
MTGO: flathead
Advantages of MTGO over paper magic
3 mana is really the top of RDW's curve and and I think in Legacy there are faster and more aggressive things that will get in for more damage quicker or be less vulnerable to removal than Chandra's Phoenix that you could be playing in the 3 mana slot. So I think the Phoenix will be good for standard mono red, but I don't think it's power level is suitable for Legacy.
My sentiments exactly. It's too slow for what it does. For 3 mana you should be getting at the very least 4 damage in one go, usually more.
Sorry for not getting to your post. I was in Canada marching in the Victoria Day parade, so I was a bit busy I'll edit in a response later.
NeoFinnity... A Control Affinity Primer
Completely agree here.
Anyway, back to Corwin. Scamp hasn't been doing very well. He is just a little slow. I'm currently using Figure of Destiny in his place. Lists are constantly going through changes, so this is my most current one:
11 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
Creatures: 20
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
3 Shattering Spree
1 Price of Progress
1 Searing Blaze
Searing Blaze is doing well. I'm afraid to increase it's count due to the fact that we don't always make our land drops.
I'll also try and add the Burn/RDW comparison to the primer this weekend
Wins:
Round 1: Stompy
Round 2: MUC
Round 4: Team Italia
Round 5: Rock
Round 7: Affinity
Round 8: MUC
Losses:
Round 3: TES
Round 6: Goblins
Again, will post a report soon.
Round 1: Stompy
Well, I've known the pilot for a while, and I have to say he isn't the best player ever.
Game 1:
I did the gameplan of burn all his guys away so that he couldn't use his pump spells. It worked.
Sided: -3 PoP +1 Searing Blaze +2 Pithing Needle
Game 2:
Same gameplan works out, and I beat him 2-0.
Record: 1-0
Round 2: MUC
This is a guy I hadn't seen before the tourney, so I had no idea what he was playing.
Game 1:
After he play Island, Go for his first two turns, I figured I was either against MUC or High Tide. Luckily, the gameplan for each is relatively similar. I kept making aggressive pushes with my spells and creatures before he can stabilize/combo off. Once I had a few spells countered, I knew it was MUC. The game went on a little longer than it should have, due to me drawing a few dead Price of Progress. I eventually drew the beef to take out his last life though, bringing us to game 2.
Sided: -2 Searing Blaze -3 Price of Progress -3 Keldon Marauders +3 Pithing Needle +4 Red Elemental Blast
Game 2:
I go with the aggressive approach again, hoping to get the same result as game 1. Sadly, he got the Shackles and walled me with my own guys until he could get enough mana open to stabilize. Where are those Pithing Needles when you need them?!
Sided: Nothing
Game 3:
I'm on the play this game. I open with a Red Elemental Blast and a Pithing Needle! Yes! I start out with a Goblin Guide, who walks (Guides?) right into a Mental Misstep. Eh, at least he is down a counter for my hate and ate some damage. He gets Island, Go as usual. I get down a Figure of Destiny, which makes it through. I pass leaving the Red open, and pump him at End of Turn. He does Island, Go again, and I pump my Figure to a 4/4. Swing, pass. He lays down a Shackles and passes. I play the Pithing Needle naming Shackles, and instead of responding with Shackles, he counters! (yes!) I play the Red Elemental Blast on the Counterspell and the Needle goes through. I won shortly after.
Record: 2-0
Round 3: TES
Game 1:
Turn 2 combo, what can I say?
Sided: -4 Grim Lavamancer +4 Red Elemental Blast
Game 2:
I did get to Blast a crucial Blue spell (Can't remember what it was, may have been Ideas Unbound). He did have enough fuel to win anyway though. Turn 4 combo was late, but not late enough to lose the game.
Record: 2-1
Round 4: Team Italia
Game 1:
Due to this archetype being relatively new, it took me a while to see what it was. I eventually figured it out. I did the normal gameplan of burning guys out of the way to get in with my own. Once he laid down a Basilisk Collar, I made a point of leaving red mana open to burn stuff it gets equipped to to the ground. I won turn 5.
Sided: -4 Rift Bolt +1 Price of Progress +1 Searing Blaze +2 Pithing Needle
Game 2:
Pithing Needle is so good. He lays down a turn 1 Collar, I counter it with the Needle. Pro stuff. Anyway, I keep up the aggression, not caring much about his discard, and eventually blow him out with a Price of Progress for 8. That card is ridiculous.
Record: 3-1
Round 5: The Rock
Game 1:
This matchup is so great. Their hate does to little to us, it's amazing. Oh yeah, and we get the Price of Progress goodies too. He does lay down an early Goyf, but I didn't care much about it and just swing with multiple guys at once. Price of Progress ended this game too.
Sided: -2 Searing Blaze +1 Price of Progress +1 Pithing Needle
Game 2:
He sided in Kitchen Finks. WTF!? He stabilized thanks to his Ouphes, and won this game
Sided: -3 Rift Bolt +3 Searing Blaze
Game 3:
I only saw 1 Finks (Thank Goodness) this game, and I got the Searing Blaze on it, helping to offset the lifegain. I did win this game, but it took a little while. Price of Progress also closes this game. Such a great card.
Record: 4-1
Round 6: Goblins
I knew this guy pretty well as well. He is a very good player.
Game 1:
He walls off all my attempts at getting in once he hit 10 life. He then quickly closed it out while he was at 5 life. Goblin Piledriver wins some serious games.
Sided: -4 Keldon Marauders -2 Rift Bolt +1 Searing Blaze +1 Price of Progress +3 Pithing Needle +1 Shattering Spree
Game 2:
Turn 1 he Lackey, Go's me, but I have the burnspell to answer it at the end phase. I then lay down a couple beaters and proceed to answer all his cards (Its hard for him to get ahead with AEther Vial pinned down with Needle.)
Game 3:
He gets the same plan going at game 1. He answers all MY answers and kills me off quickly.
Record: 4-2
Round: 7: Affinity
Game 1:
He kills me with an Etched Champion paired with a Cranial Plating in 2 turns :/
Sided: -4 Keldon Marauders -4 Rift Bolt +3 Shattering Spree +1 Price of Progress +3 Pithing Needle +1 Searing Blaze
Game 2:
Burn his guys, Shatter his lands. He concedes.
Game 3:
Punch him quickly, Price of Progress for 8, he concedes.
Round 8: MUC
Yes! Another MUC deck!
Game 1:
He gets me with a Shackles, but I don't give up. I should have
Sided: -2 Searing Blaze -3 Price of Progress -3 Keldon Marauders +3 Pithing Needle +4 Red Elemental Blast
Game 2:
I actually play a little laid back in this game. I start out with a fetch into a Grim Lavamancer, and just plan on slowly burning him. I Needle the Shackles he lays down, and counter the proceeding Mental Misstep with REB. He did bounce Grim with a Jace eventually, but he had eaten enough damage to get taken out with my onslaught of burn I had been stockpiling.
Game 3:
I totally aggro rush him with 3 Goblin Guides (!). Gotta love that red player's luck.
Well anyway, that is the report. Sorry if I got a little lazy towards the end, I was getting tired of typing
Sadly, the match between RDW and Burn is slightly in Burn's favor due to being slightly faster. The differences really play out in other matchups, though.
Burn is probably one of the more mindless decks of the format, and so is RDW. I will probably say that RDW is more skillful than Burn, but it really comes down to board states and how you use resources.
NeoFinnity... A Control Affinity Primer
4 Goblin Guide
2 Hellspark Elemental
4 Keldon Marauders
Enchantments
3 Sulfuric Vortex
Instants
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Magma Jet
2 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
1 Volcanic Fallout
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
Lands
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
12 mountains
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Volcanic Fallout
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 relic of progenitus
i love this deck because it's so fast and fun for me at least lol i decided on 2 searing blaze because the meta at our local card shop doesn't support price of progress very well so it usually get's sided out and magma jet is beatiful in here i would never cut it. i have actually thought of cutting two mountains in favour for 2 more magma jet's i'm still undecided but i'll see. anyways lmk what you think!
Cigarettes are a lot like hamsters, perfectly harmless until you stick one in your mouth and light it on fire.
Burn is more skill based than people give it credit for. It has a very smooth curve, however, so people without much skill can play it. It's one of the few decks that I'd say your skill wins you the match rather than your deck. This is why people like Patrick Sullivan can top 8 with it.
RDW falls under a similar concept, but it lacks some of the things that Burn has. One of the major things being that it relies more on creatures than Burn does. While these can be efficient, it also means you are vulnerable to the many types of creature removal that are represented in the format. Therefore, it may not even matter your skill level.
@Jafoniceld: Your deck is running along more of the burn lines, you might want to migrate to that thread instead.
Legacy:
RBDark BurnBR