plimplam i responded in the thread you made, but I didnt' realize that you found this one. Can you respond to me in here to my question in there?
Also, guys who are playing this deck now... what do you feel about City of Traitors? I think it is important to have as many opportunities for Turn1 Chalice / early Preeminent Captain as possible, and 2-3 copies of City of Traitors makes it that much easier. Making 2 mana with 1 land is one of the strongest things this deck does right now. I notice most people posting lists only play 4 Tombs and no Cities... Can I ask why not any Cities?
I run 4 CoTs and 4 tombs and id never cut any of those. I ve found that the ramp aspect is super valuable in this deck and it is what makes it go from a tunned fun deck to a decently viable deck, also when your playing 4 moxes, 4 bannerets, 4 warchiefs, and 4 p. captains while taxing your opponent the sacrifice drawback is very manageable
Aegis of the Gods from Journey into Nyx diminishes the impact of Liliana and Jace, plus it hoses single target combo and burn. It's a sideboard hoser on legs. Not bad.
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I just logged on to the spoiler site and saw it. This is definitely an interesting addition! I was thinking that this deck still needs either A.) A Soldier Tutor or B.) Another disruptive Soldier like Thalia or something similar. This could be it, I don't know, but it does look solid at first glance.
That's a few of the Tier decks off the top of my head. What this looks like to me is a Sideboard card against Discard-heavy decks. I just don't know if a 2/1 for 1W that doesn't do much else is good enough to maindeck when it seems as if he's only relevant in less than 50% of the matches. At least Thalia has first strike too...
I think Aegis of the Gods will be a must-have for the sideboard as it has a similar functionality to a few of the cards currently occupying slots, and it's fetchabilty with Enlistment Officer pushes it in front of the rest as an actual trump card.
Also, what about Loxodon Gatekeeper or Mentor of the Meek or Intrepid Hero? These seem like they have potential at least for recognition and theory testing. They supply great disruption. They are not so one dimensional, and not even too situational besides Intrepid Hero.
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I play Intrepid Hero (and have been for the past few years) as a 4-of in SB as my Sneak n Show hate. It's effective there, and solid vs other decks with fatties like MUD or Maverick. The only problem is that if Sneak n Show boards in Pyroclasm he's typically worse than Oblivion Ring.
Gatekeeper is a very interesting card. I'm actually testing him as a 3-of right now in a 4 Suppression Field, 4 Winter Orb version of the deck. Obviuosly he adds disruption, but at the cost of another high-cc slot guy like Daru Warchief, Gustcloak Savior, or Captain of the Watch. I have yet to determine if the extra disruption is better or if the combat boost is better. It's hard to figure this kind of thing out in a diverse format.
Mentor of the Meek requires too much mana to use, imho. This deck doesn't want to be tapping mana to use abilities, it wants to tap just enough mana to cast guys.
Some notes:
-My land base is extremely suicidal but to be honest if I wasnt playing my spells on the earliest turn possible I think the deck wouldnt be performing nearly as well
-Maximun ramp pottential means more chances of backbreaking plays as T1 chalice, early Thalia + Gatekeeper, & early CotW
-E. Champions are wilcards that can save your life and end stacked gamestates
-I've played the deck for a long time and I think it can be tunned better but it perfoms really nicely and it presents the metagame something fresh and powerfull. I plan on replacing Leyline with JOU-Aegis of the Gods
I tried to make Etched Champ work for me a long time ago (as evidenced by the original post), and even made a full-on Metalcraft list with Auriok Sunchaser but I found that maintaining Metalcraft, primarily by using Artifact lands, is hard to do in a format full of Abrupt Decay and Wasteland. And if you aren't playing Metalcraft, the Metalcraft Soldiers are bad by Soldier standards, and absymal (2/2 for 3 mana) by the hyper efficient Legacy standards. If there was some way to ensure Metalcraft nearly every game, I would play 4 Etched Champ and 4 Auriok Sunchaser, but I don't think there is.
I also tried Gatekeeper at numerous points during my time testing this deck but the problem for me always was: at 4 mana he comes down later, and after Turn 4 or so, what you want is to affect the board state immediately. Gatekeeper affects things in the future. During Turn 4+ I am usually trying to attack with my guys and at that stage I would rather have the pump from a guy like Field Marshal / Veteran Swordsmith, or the mass-evasion of a guy like Gustcloak Savior, than disruption that occurs in the future. I'd rather even play something like Winter Orb in that situation, which immediately affects a tapped-out opponent, whereas the Gatekeeper's disruption is dependent on them playing future things.
Also, I'm surprised by your 21 lands... That is ALOT in this type of deck. I vacillate between 17 and 18 lands with 4 Chrome Mox. That is essentially 22 mana sources if you play 18 lands and 4 Mox, and the Mox give you card disadvantage. If you play more lands than 18 in addition to 4 Mox, you will just be flooded with Lands and spare Moxen too often, imho. And if you play 4 Tombs and 2+ Cities, the 2 mana per land advatnage means you can typically play less lands than most decks anyway.
Thanks! Id like to see what list you are playing currently
As I said the champs here work like wildcards and they can get you out of so many situations. I've found the magical number for this deck is 2 champs and the 15 artifacts are enough to almost guarantee metalcraft (I am playing -1 karacas +1 ancient den).
The trick with my list, and all its ramp, is that you have to look at it and replace every 2 mana symbol with a 1 mana symbol on the costs of the cards. Maximizing the 2 mana lands get early P. captains wich gets you 2x 4drops the next turn (or even officer into CoTW, thats why I think they are auto 4-of). On the worst case bannerets and moxes help too.
Loxodon here helps more than you may think, he hoses flash cretures, elves, tribal decks, emrakul on the first turn, AND fetchlans. Thalia instantly followed by gatekeeper make their 1 drops and 2 drops super slow (they act kinda like a chalice backup plan)
Finally you have to see 3 of my lands are canopies, so they turn into cards at convenience while providing the W for the double WW costs. The 2 mana lands often provide with the activation cost of a canopy and a extra mana for the card I draw
I'm play with a Stompy Soldier Legacy. I can win the last tournament legacy in my city. That's is my list:
Main deck (60 cards):
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flagstones of Trokair
5 Plains
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Ancient Tomb
18 terrenos
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Enlistment Officer
4 Thalia, Guardiã de Thraben
3 Captain of the Watch
3 Daru Warchief
3 Field Marshal
3 Loxodon Gatekeeper
2 Dawnbringer Charioteers
2 Brimaz, Rei de Oreskos
1 Commander Eesha
1 Lavinia of the Tenth
30 creatures
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Suppression Field
4 Chrome Mox
12 Others
Side:
1 Wrath of God
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Disenchant
3 Leyline of Santicity
1 Crib Swap
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Rest in Peace
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Intrepid Hero
This list did make great results. I have some problems when play versus stoneforje's deck's because Batterskull, so i use disenchant for it and others equips. I think disenchant better than oblivion ring for this because it is instant.
Nice list, Robert! It's always cool to see people do well with this deck.
How has 3 Loxodon Gatekeeper worked out for you? I tested him a while back and decided not to play him because at 4 mana he is too late to affect future stuff, and he takes up a valuable slot that could be instead used for a Lord or an Enlistment Officer.
Also, you play ALOT of double-white (WW) casting cost Soldiers. I prefer to play as few as possible and play more colorless mana lands like City of Traitors. Right now I only play 3 Captain of the Watch, 3 Daru Warchief, and 2 Brimaz as my WW casting cost cards. Does the WW ever slow you down? That's how I feel if I play too many WW cards - I don't make maximum use of the Tomb/City manabase.
How has Dawnbringer Charioteer worked for you? I was intrigued by the 2/4 flying lifelink when I saw the Spoiler, but 4 mana just seems like too much (again) for something that isn't a Lord or a draw-spell.
Also, vs. Stoneforge/ Batterskull decks, I've discovered that what you want to do is simply overwhelm with soldiers. First strike is important here! I play 3 Porcelain Legionnaires which give 3 first strike power per each, so a Legionnaire + Thalia or Legionnaire + Preeminent can simply block Batterskull all day, and then wait until Captain of the Watch + warchief drop, and then attack with 4+ power per each.
In recent testing, I've come to the conclusion that I do *not* like Suppression Field. I've taken it out of all my lists. In its place I am now playing Winter Orb and Phyrexian Revoker. I have yet to decide whether to have 4 Revoker MD or 4 Orb MD and the other in the sb...
I do not use City, because this WW is not really a problem.
About Dawnbringer Charioteer, he is a test and not came good results. The most time i prefer remove it for the mox.
Loxodon Gatekeeper is AMAZING, some time i can cast him in my second turn and that change give-me the game.
He makes his opponents have no blockers if you are attacking. Against him "Fetchlands" is very strong because they are 2 shifts without land the opponent are. Against Storm, Dread and some contros he holds petal lotus and also LED.
I think it's one of the main forces of the deck, it's never bad when it comes.
Suppression Field make a very good results. In my city Suppression is really good, when it come make difference because in my ambient have Goblins, Merfolks, D&T, Pox and a lot "decks" that the field makes a difference.
Phyrexian Revoker i like too much, i think use 2 in main deck.
Loxodon Gatekeeper has some nice effects for sure, but in my testing at 4 mana he always came later, when what you want to do instead is affect the board right now - i.e. a Lord that pumps soldiers in play, or Officer that draws, or Gustcoak Savior that lets you attack without worry. I guess this has not been a problem for you.
Suppression Field, to me, is a deceitful card. It looks very amazing on paper - affects so much in Legacy - but in practice, it does too little. I have lost many games with Field in play when they just pay 2 mana to use their Jace or Liliana or AEther Vial and it does not affect them enough. Or I play Field against a deck that plays fetchlands, and he cracks fetch in response, and then has enough lands to ignore Field later on.
At 1W, Field is basically negative value until they pay 2 mana for one effect, and then it is neutral tempo value but -1 card advantage. It only becomes worthwhile when opponent is forced to pay 4+ mana, and preferably 6+ mana for effects, and then it is still -1 card advantage but some amount of tempo advantage.
So to me, Field needs to absolutely affect multiple cards just to be playable. Alot of decks play fetchlands, but not every deck plays Vial / Stoneforge / Jace. And against fetchland decks, if they crack fetchland in response, and then are not affected by Field again, it is basically a terrible play. And it is always card disadvantage because it is not a creature and does nothing but affect the opponent.
Whereas something like Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker is actually card advantage because it completely stops one card of opponent's, and sometimes multiples, and Revoker attacks as a 2/1.
Also: two questions - why no Karakas? You need Karakas to beat Reanimator / Show n Tell decks consistently imho/.. and I notice 0 Ballyrush Banneret - you don't need him with all the 4cc+ Soldiers you play?
I don't use karakas because i no had it rsrsrs. I'll buy that land but it's very expensive. About Ballyrush before i used, but not came good results. The most time i use he with food for mox. So i prefer take off and play with only 3 Captain of the Watch. Anyway the captain is really good when it is placed on the battlefield by preeminent.
About Field it is interesting to delay the opponents before the soldiers come into play. I make the turn 1 or 2 and gain time while opponents seek an answer to the Field, I'm bringing new threats. But it largely depends on the environment you play. Here it has been very important in most games.
Field is not a solution to a specific problem. It serves more as a tool to delay the opponent for 1 or 2 turns. For example Deathrite Shaman becomes useless for mana with Field.
I can not like Gustcoak Savior. I understand the fact that he give security to attack you but I think the cost is 5 too complicated to use when it is really necessary, unless he enter the preeminent but in this case I like to use a lot more for it in Lavina legacy is practically: "your creatures can not be blocked."
Maybe you use the 8 to make the sun land cost than 4W most interesting 2WW or 1WW. Because of this use cards like Gatekeeper is more complicated for you.
- I can see why you cut Ballyrush Banneret - often later in the game he is very underwhelming. But the thing he does is smooth out the mana curve. He helps pay for the more expensive Soldiers earlier - so you can play 2WW guy on Turn 3 instead of Turn 4, or play multiple 1W guys in one turn. I tried to cut him too but then found the deck stalling out too often with expensive Soldiers in hand.. i.e. three lands in play (say after Wasteland) and with Daru Warchief in hand, when if I had Banneret, I could play him that turn. I guess the question I have is - because you play so many expensive Soldiers and no Banneret, and no City of Traitors - don't you find it hard to cast some of these? Especially vs. Wasteland decks?
- I have played Suppression Field off and on in this deck and the problem I always have with this card is that - if it isn't affecting many cards of oppponent's, and early, then it is a blank card. It is worse than say - Thalia vs. an all-creature deck - because Thalia can still attack and block. Suppression Field, if opponent has cracked his fetchland in response and/or maybe has alot of mana in play, is just -1 card advantage. It is awful in that situation. And you say you need it to slow the opponent down - well, Soldiers don't always kill in those few turns. This deck, many times, has to get into late game and survive. The answer to Field, for opponent, often is just to ignore it! Aren't you bothered by how easily decks can just ignore Field by tapping 2 mana for Vial, or 2 mana ofr Liliana, or 2 mana for Jace, or crack fetch in resp. and just play lands?
Have no many Wasteland decks in my city, but when i play vs that's decks "supression field" help so much. The mana curve have no problem at all. First Turn Thalia/Field/Calice; Second Turno Preeminent/Brimaz/Field Marshal. Third Others Soldiers. The most time i don't Have problems, but it's something to think, Banneret maybe give more Gatekeepers in second turn.
I see the most time the oponente pay 2 for field take off the lands for make another thing. I Agree, late game field not have effect but sometimes it is a AutoWin too. I did win some games only because i make Field turn one and my oponent have no "normal lands". Jitte lost complete function if i have pay 2 for every ability. If you need pay 2 for Vial so it make lost the purpose of leaving her free to counter or something else.
But i have Phyrexian Revocker in side, because sometimes i need stop complete something, some troubles planiwalker like Jace.
Greetings. Only just noticed this thread- I do no visit developing very often.
Here is my list below. Feel free to skip to it. Explanation is below.
I am primarily a prison player for legacy (because I absolutely love to hate unfair decks where people play with themselves for 5-10 mins whilst they go off- I like to watch them struggle for an hour), but I love this aggro archetype as its basically goblins but good. I will explain what I mean by that. Goblins is basically a bit of a non deck nowadays. Yes, it has a good fair matches- but the unfair matches feel just that- unfair. It just does not have the disruption. When it does well its normally because it draws the best goblin-Thalia, and whenever I play vs goblins list with prison type deck I always wince if they are playing the port/thalia version. From speaking to other players they feel the same- Thalia and vial hit early-goblins win. If not its a hard time for red men. Thalia is of course not a goblin, she is a soldier. I even saw on the d and t thread a similar exposition- when asked why he was playing d and t, a player said that its, and I paraphrase, "goblins but good". As you may have noticed, as time has elapsed soldiers have gotten better, as wizards have pushed modern they keep putting legacy quality effects onto creatures. The latest is aegis of the gods. I feel certain that as time elapses the goblin archetype will be superseded by soliders in legacy.
The key, as ever is the disruption and acceleration that make the deck viable.
choices:
The disruption package speaks for itself- suppression field is great, but does not affect some decks adversely. It makes not running wastelands a valid choice, and running wastes is a trap in this deck. I see that lists here are in concordance with running field.
Karakas and field is a nonbo, but I will live with it while karakas is so needed vs s and s.
Thalia is a no brainer. Best man in legacy?
Hookmasters- concession to show and tell plus blade decks who drop batterskull- it often buys enough time for a swing for the win. If not put puts it close. It is a like an uncounterable removal/tempo spell vs most decks with cavern down.
Cavern- no brainer.
Chalice- no brainer. Just the nuts vs many decks, and we can abuse it so badly because our lackey costs 3.
Tomb/mox- essential t1 plays.
Aegis. So I can t1 chalice, t1 thalia or t1 aegis. Storm is looking better by the minute. Also hurts lily ultimate and jace fateseal, as well as just being a really annoying effect for decks relying on hand disruption.
Bannerets- well I die if I don't put pressure on early- and I want to win matches which don't go like a dream, so this guy gets the big hitters down earlier when things do not work out they way we want.
My board
3 thorn of amythyst- more anti unfair stuff.
2 unexpectedly absent. Cheapest all purpose removal. Could be o ring but show and tell is not a bad match, and it is hard to cast o ring. WW is easier than 3, and I am only boarding unexpectedly in when x is zero- its for marit laige tokens, batterskull tokens (or the skull itself) and blade decks that search. There is so much search out there....
Anti grave hate:
2 rest in peace
1 tormod's crypt
1 grafdigger's cage
1 jotun grunt
- I know this looks a mess, but Grunt comes in vs bug/rug or punishing fire type matches- makes goyf small, switches off threshold etc. Even with no bin it can come in via preeminent and do stuff. RIP comes in vs those decks too, but I do not want 3 copies of it. Grunt also comes in vs pyroclasm or golgari charm running decks. It survives those effects and beats hard.
The whole lot comes in vs reanimator/tin fins/storm/dredge. Cage comes in vs maverick when the others don't. Crypt is just another early t1 play that comes down- it won't win matches where gravehate is required, but it keeps me in the game till something better comes up. If I am not doing something good t1, I am losing vs unfair stuff.
3 phrexian revoker- good vs pws, stoneforge etc, although aegis makes these more redundant of late.
2 spirit of the labyrinth. Not sure about these. They seem great vs blue but they disrupt synergy, but I am weaker to omnishow with no oring.
Hookmasters is a interesting Soldier, i like him. Maybe, i will test him. It make diference? Did you win some game with him?
I realy don't like Aegis, i think he is not a solution for deck like Burn and Belcher. What you think about him? He make diference? I Think every time: I will need him and he will die for a removal.
So i wish make a question for all:
What you think about a new card "Council's Judgment"? It is a very powerfull card, it can resolve Enrakul/Progenitus and TNN.
Hookmaster is not really a creature. It is a spell, sometimes uncounterable, that gets rid of a in the way for a while- normally for a combat and the next. It has a body of course for later. It great in two situations
A) when you want to beat early on, but have not set up a huge hoard of men, more like a couple of guys- but there is a goyf and a friend in the way of what you have laid, and your attack would be only ok. In that situation he buys time to beat meaning that as soon as you do resolve some more guys you are in the box seat and a modest swing can be lethal.
B) When your opponent has resolved a stoneforge, fetched a batterskull, but has not yet thrown it down. Or when they have thrown it down, you have a first strike stand off and you have lethal without it in the way.
It can of course come into play and tap an emrakul or grisselbrand off show and tell.
Pretty versatile. The interaction with cavern of souls really helps vs blue delver decks just trying to race.
Aegis I am testing. Sure, it is another t1 play that can irritate storm or belcher like chalice is- but I was viewing it as much for its interaction against fair decks- RUG or UR tempo decks, lilliana and burn. Just getting it down makes being on 3 much safer. Even if it only buys a turn, that may be the turn we win.
A first turn aegis should actually stop belcher winning there and then. Its just a 2/1 soldier we have a reasonable chance of seeing due to enlistment officers, and a reasonable chance of it resolving due to preeminent and cavern. I am only testing, but it seems fine so far.
Council's judgement will cost 4 with thalia down, and can't be put in off s and t....:eek:
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Is s and t that hard? I have found a fair few harder matches- omnitell. mud and reanimator for a start......
On the play you can t1 pre eminent, or a chalice or thalia- both of which slows them down by a turn+ normally by hitting all spells or just making brainstorm not work
On your next turn if preminent is down drop in captain or another dude support to empty t3. if not then another bite at thalia. Or drop a karakas and smile.
When they emrakul of s and t the hookmaster in hand is normally enough- or karakas. If not drawing the guy and a cavern gets him out of the way for lethal.
On the draw they will go off t3/4 normally- which is again not always enough if you have hookmaster/karakas in hand- or have boarded in oring.
Also, guys who are playing this deck now... what do you feel about City of Traitors? I think it is important to have as many opportunities for Turn1 Chalice / early Preeminent Captain as possible, and 2-3 copies of City of Traitors makes it that much easier. Making 2 mana with 1 land is one of the strongest things this deck does right now. I notice most people posting lists only play 4 Tombs and no Cities... Can I ask why not any Cities?
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
- UGB Delver: Liliana, Hymn to Tourach
- UGR Delver: Lightning Bolt
- UWR Delver: Lightning Bolt
- Death n Taxes: n/a
- Merfolk: n/a
- Jund: Hymn to Tourach, Liliana
- Sneak n Show: Intuition, Gitaxian Probe
- Reanimator: Thoughtseize
- Elves: n/a
- Imperial Painter: Grindstone
- Stoneblade: Jace (2 abilities), Liliana, Thoughtseize
- Miracles: Vendilion Clique, Jace (2 abilities)
That's a few of the Tier decks off the top of my head. What this looks like to me is a Sideboard card against Discard-heavy decks. I just don't know if a 2/1 for 1W that doesn't do much else is good enough to maindeck when it seems as if he's only relevant in less than 50% of the matches. At least Thalia has first strike too...
Also, what about Loxodon Gatekeeper or Mentor of the Meek or Intrepid Hero? These seem like they have potential at least for recognition and theory testing. They supply great disruption. They are not so one dimensional, and not even too situational besides Intrepid Hero.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Gatekeeper is a very interesting card. I'm actually testing him as a 3-of right now in a 4 Suppression Field, 4 Winter Orb version of the deck. Obviuosly he adds disruption, but at the cost of another high-cc slot guy like Daru Warchief, Gustcloak Savior, or Captain of the Watch. I have yet to determine if the extra disruption is better or if the combat boost is better. It's hard to figure this kind of thing out in a diverse format.
Mentor of the Meek requires too much mana to use, imho. This deck doesn't want to be tapping mana to use abilities, it wants to tap just enough mana to cast guys.
4x Ballyrush Banneret
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1x Field Marshal
2x Etched Champion
4x Preeminent Captain
3x Loxodon Gatekeeper
4x Daru Warchief
4x Enlistment Officer
4x Captain of the Watch
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Chrome Mox
Lands [21]
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Cavern of Souls
3x Horizon Canopy
3x Ancient Den
2x Karakas
1x Plains
4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Oblivion Ring
2x Rest in Peace
2x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Trinisphere
Some notes:
-My land base is extremely suicidal but to be honest if I wasnt playing my spells on the earliest turn possible I think the deck wouldnt be performing nearly as well
-Maximun ramp pottential means more chances of backbreaking plays as T1 chalice, early Thalia + Gatekeeper, & early CotW
-E. Champions are wilcards that can save your life and end stacked gamestates
-I've played the deck for a long time and I think it can be tunned better but it perfoms really nicely and it presents the metagame something fresh and powerfull. I plan on replacing Leyline with JOU-Aegis of the Gods
I tried to make Etched Champ work for me a long time ago (as evidenced by the original post), and even made a full-on Metalcraft list with Auriok Sunchaser but I found that maintaining Metalcraft, primarily by using Artifact lands, is hard to do in a format full of Abrupt Decay and Wasteland. And if you aren't playing Metalcraft, the Metalcraft Soldiers are bad by Soldier standards, and absymal (2/2 for 3 mana) by the hyper efficient Legacy standards. If there was some way to ensure Metalcraft nearly every game, I would play 4 Etched Champ and 4 Auriok Sunchaser, but I don't think there is.
I also tried Gatekeeper at numerous points during my time testing this deck but the problem for me always was: at 4 mana he comes down later, and after Turn 4 or so, what you want is to affect the board state immediately. Gatekeeper affects things in the future. During Turn 4+ I am usually trying to attack with my guys and at that stage I would rather have the pump from a guy like Field Marshal / Veteran Swordsmith, or the mass-evasion of a guy like Gustcloak Savior, than disruption that occurs in the future. I'd rather even play something like Winter Orb in that situation, which immediately affects a tapped-out opponent, whereas the Gatekeeper's disruption is dependent on them playing future things.
Also, I'm surprised by your 21 lands... That is ALOT in this type of deck. I vacillate between 17 and 18 lands with 4 Chrome Mox. That is essentially 22 mana sources if you play 18 lands and 4 Mox, and the Mox give you card disadvantage. If you play more lands than 18 in addition to 4 Mox, you will just be flooded with Lands and spare Moxen too often, imho. And if you play 4 Tombs and 2+ Cities, the 2 mana per land advatnage means you can typically play less lands than most decks anyway.
As I said the champs here work like wildcards and they can get you out of so many situations. I've found the magical number for this deck is 2 champs and the 15 artifacts are enough to almost guarantee metalcraft (I am playing -1 karacas +1 ancient den).
The trick with my list, and all its ramp, is that you have to look at it and replace every 2 mana symbol with a 1 mana symbol on the costs of the cards. Maximizing the 2 mana lands get early P. captains wich gets you 2x 4drops the next turn (or even officer into CoTW, thats why I think they are auto 4-of). On the worst case bannerets and moxes help too.
Loxodon here helps more than you may think, he hoses flash cretures, elves, tribal decks, emrakul on the first turn, AND fetchlans. Thalia instantly followed by gatekeeper make their 1 drops and 2 drops super slow (they act kinda like a chalice backup plan)
Finally you have to see 3 of my lands are canopies, so they turn into cards at convenience while providing the W for the double WW costs. The 2 mana lands often provide with the activation cost of a canopy and a extra mana for the card I draw
I'm play with a Stompy Soldier Legacy. I can win the last tournament legacy in my city. That's is my list:
Main deck (60 cards):
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flagstones of Trokair
5 Plains
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Ancient Tomb
18 terrenos
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Enlistment Officer
4 Thalia, Guardiã de Thraben
3 Captain of the Watch
3 Daru Warchief
3 Field Marshal
3 Loxodon Gatekeeper
2 Dawnbringer Charioteers
2 Brimaz, Rei de Oreskos
1 Commander Eesha
1 Lavinia of the Tenth
30 creatures
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Suppression Field
4 Chrome Mox
12 Others
Side:
1 Wrath of God
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Disenchant
3 Leyline of Santicity
1 Crib Swap
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Rest in Peace
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Intrepid Hero
This list did make great results. I have some problems when play versus stoneforje's deck's because Batterskull, so i use disenchant for it and others equips. I think disenchant better than oblivion ring for this because it is instant.
So... What you think about my list?
PS: Sorry for bad english, I can not speak well.
How has 3 Loxodon Gatekeeper worked out for you? I tested him a while back and decided not to play him because at 4 mana he is too late to affect future stuff, and he takes up a valuable slot that could be instead used for a Lord or an Enlistment Officer.
Also, you play ALOT of double-white (WW) casting cost Soldiers. I prefer to play as few as possible and play more colorless mana lands like City of Traitors. Right now I only play 3 Captain of the Watch, 3 Daru Warchief, and 2 Brimaz as my WW casting cost cards. Does the WW ever slow you down? That's how I feel if I play too many WW cards - I don't make maximum use of the Tomb/City manabase.
How has Dawnbringer Charioteer worked for you? I was intrigued by the 2/4 flying lifelink when I saw the Spoiler, but 4 mana just seems like too much (again) for something that isn't a Lord or a draw-spell.
Also, vs. Stoneforge/ Batterskull decks, I've discovered that what you want to do is simply overwhelm with soldiers. First strike is important here! I play 3 Porcelain Legionnaires which give 3 first strike power per each, so a Legionnaire + Thalia or Legionnaire + Preeminent can simply block Batterskull all day, and then wait until Captain of the Watch + warchief drop, and then attack with 4+ power per each.
In recent testing, I've come to the conclusion that I do *not* like Suppression Field. I've taken it out of all my lists. In its place I am now playing Winter Orb and Phyrexian Revoker. I have yet to decide whether to have 4 Revoker MD or 4 Orb MD and the other in the sb...
About Dawnbringer Charioteer, he is a test and not came good results. The most time i prefer remove it for the mox.
Loxodon Gatekeeper is AMAZING, some time i can cast him in my second turn and that change give-me the game.
He makes his opponents have no blockers if you are attacking. Against him "Fetchlands" is very strong because they are 2 shifts without land the opponent are. Against Storm, Dread and some contros he holds petal lotus and also LED.
I think it's one of the main forces of the deck, it's never bad when it comes.
Suppression Field make a very good results. In my city Suppression is really good, when it come make difference because in my ambient have Goblins, Merfolks, D&T, Pox and a lot "decks" that the field makes a difference.
Phyrexian Revoker i like too much, i think use 2 in main deck.
Suppression Field, to me, is a deceitful card. It looks very amazing on paper - affects so much in Legacy - but in practice, it does too little. I have lost many games with Field in play when they just pay 2 mana to use their Jace or Liliana or AEther Vial and it does not affect them enough. Or I play Field against a deck that plays fetchlands, and he cracks fetch in response, and then has enough lands to ignore Field later on.
At 1W, Field is basically negative value until they pay 2 mana for one effect, and then it is neutral tempo value but -1 card advantage. It only becomes worthwhile when opponent is forced to pay 4+ mana, and preferably 6+ mana for effects, and then it is still -1 card advantage but some amount of tempo advantage.
So to me, Field needs to absolutely affect multiple cards just to be playable. Alot of decks play fetchlands, but not every deck plays Vial / Stoneforge / Jace. And against fetchland decks, if they crack fetchland in response, and then are not affected by Field again, it is basically a terrible play. And it is always card disadvantage because it is not a creature and does nothing but affect the opponent.
Whereas something like Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker is actually card advantage because it completely stops one card of opponent's, and sometimes multiples, and Revoker attacks as a 2/1.
Also: two questions - why no Karakas? You need Karakas to beat Reanimator / Show n Tell decks consistently imho/.. and I notice 0 Ballyrush Banneret - you don't need him with all the 4cc+ Soldiers you play?
About Field it is interesting to delay the opponents before the soldiers come into play. I make the turn 1 or 2 and gain time while opponents seek an answer to the Field, I'm bringing new threats. But it largely depends on the environment you play. Here it has been very important in most games.
Field is not a solution to a specific problem. It serves more as a tool to delay the opponent for 1 or 2 turns. For example Deathrite Shaman becomes useless for mana with Field.
I can not like Gustcoak Savior. I understand the fact that he give security to attack you but I think the cost is 5 too complicated to use when it is really necessary, unless he enter the preeminent but in this case I like to use a lot more for it in Lavina legacy is practically: "your creatures can not be blocked."
Maybe you use the 8 to make the sun land cost than 4W most interesting 2WW or 1WW. Because of this use cards like Gatekeeper is more complicated for you.
- I have played Suppression Field off and on in this deck and the problem I always have with this card is that - if it isn't affecting many cards of oppponent's, and early, then it is a blank card. It is worse than say - Thalia vs. an all-creature deck - because Thalia can still attack and block. Suppression Field, if opponent has cracked his fetchland in response and/or maybe has alot of mana in play, is just -1 card advantage. It is awful in that situation. And you say you need it to slow the opponent down - well, Soldiers don't always kill in those few turns. This deck, many times, has to get into late game and survive. The answer to Field, for opponent, often is just to ignore it! Aren't you bothered by how easily decks can just ignore Field by tapping 2 mana for Vial, or 2 mana ofr Liliana, or 2 mana for Jace, or crack fetch in resp. and just play lands?
I see the most time the oponente pay 2 for field take off the lands for make another thing. I Agree, late game field not have effect but sometimes it is a AutoWin too. I did win some games only because i make Field turn one and my oponent have no "normal lands". Jitte lost complete function if i have pay 2 for every ability. If you need pay 2 for Vial so it make lost the purpose of leaving her free to counter or something else.
But i have Phyrexian Revocker in side, because sometimes i need stop complete something, some troubles planiwalker like Jace.
Here is my list below. Feel free to skip to it. Explanation is below.
I am primarily a prison player for legacy (because I absolutely love to hate unfair decks where people play with themselves for 5-10 mins whilst they go off- I like to watch them struggle for an hour), but I love this aggro archetype as its basically goblins but good. I will explain what I mean by that. Goblins is basically a bit of a non deck nowadays. Yes, it has a good fair matches- but the unfair matches feel just that- unfair. It just does not have the disruption. When it does well its normally because it draws the best goblin-Thalia, and whenever I play vs goblins list with prison type deck I always wince if they are playing the port/thalia version. From speaking to other players they feel the same- Thalia and vial hit early-goblins win. If not its a hard time for red men. Thalia is of course not a goblin, she is a soldier. I even saw on the d and t thread a similar exposition- when asked why he was playing d and t, a player said that its, and I paraphrase, "goblins but good". As you may have noticed, as time has elapsed soldiers have gotten better, as wizards have pushed modern they keep putting legacy quality effects onto creatures. The latest is aegis of the gods. I feel certain that as time elapses the goblin archetype will be superseded by soliders in legacy.
The key, as ever is the disruption and acceleration that make the deck viable.
2 karakas
4 chrome mox
4 ancient tomb
8 plains
3 aegis of the gods
4 ballyrush banneret
4 pre eminent captain
3 kor hookmaster
4 field marshal
4 enlistment officer
1 daru warchief
4 captain of the watch
4 chalice of the void
choices:
The disruption package speaks for itself- suppression field is great, but does not affect some decks adversely. It makes not running wastelands a valid choice, and running wastes is a trap in this deck. I see that lists here are in concordance with running field.
Karakas and field is a nonbo, but I will live with it while karakas is so needed vs s and s.
Thalia is a no brainer. Best man in legacy?
Hookmasters- concession to show and tell plus blade decks who drop batterskull- it often buys enough time for a swing for the win. If not put puts it close. It is a like an uncounterable removal/tempo spell vs most decks with cavern down.
Cavern- no brainer.
Chalice- no brainer. Just the nuts vs many decks, and we can abuse it so badly because our lackey costs 3.
Tomb/mox- essential t1 plays.
Aegis. So I can t1 chalice, t1 thalia or t1 aegis. Storm is looking better by the minute. Also hurts lily ultimate and jace fateseal, as well as just being a really annoying effect for decks relying on hand disruption.
Bannerets- well I die if I don't put pressure on early- and I want to win matches which don't go like a dream, so this guy gets the big hitters down earlier when things do not work out they way we want.
My board
3 thorn of amythyst- more anti unfair stuff.
2 unexpectedly absent. Cheapest all purpose removal. Could be o ring but show and tell is not a bad match, and it is hard to cast o ring. WW is easier than 3, and I am only boarding unexpectedly in when x is zero- its for marit laige tokens, batterskull tokens (or the skull itself) and blade decks that search. There is so much search out there....
Anti grave hate:
2 rest in peace
1 tormod's crypt
1 grafdigger's cage
1 jotun grunt
- I know this looks a mess, but Grunt comes in vs bug/rug or punishing fire type matches- makes goyf small, switches off threshold etc. Even with no bin it can come in via preeminent and do stuff. RIP comes in vs those decks too, but I do not want 3 copies of it. Grunt also comes in vs pyroclasm or golgari charm running decks. It survives those effects and beats hard.
The whole lot comes in vs reanimator/tin fins/storm/dredge. Cage comes in vs maverick when the others don't. Crypt is just another early t1 play that comes down- it won't win matches where gravehate is required, but it keeps me in the game till something better comes up. If I am not doing something good t1, I am losing vs unfair stuff.
3 phrexian revoker- good vs pws, stoneforge etc, although aegis makes these more redundant of late.
2 spirit of the labyrinth. Not sure about these. They seem great vs blue but they disrupt synergy, but I am weaker to omnishow with no oring.
I have often thought about grunt no 2.
I realy don't like Aegis, i think he is not a solution for deck like Burn and Belcher. What you think about him? He make diference? I Think every time: I will need him and he will die for a removal.
So i wish make a question for all:
What you think about a new card "Council's Judgment"? It is a very powerfull card, it can resolve Enrakul/Progenitus and TNN.
A) when you want to beat early on, but have not set up a huge hoard of men, more like a couple of guys- but there is a goyf and a friend in the way of what you have laid, and your attack would be only ok. In that situation he buys time to beat meaning that as soon as you do resolve some more guys you are in the box seat and a modest swing can be lethal.
B) When your opponent has resolved a stoneforge, fetched a batterskull, but has not yet thrown it down. Or when they have thrown it down, you have a first strike stand off and you have lethal without it in the way.
It can of course come into play and tap an emrakul or grisselbrand off show and tell.
Pretty versatile. The interaction with cavern of souls really helps vs blue delver decks just trying to race.
Aegis I am testing. Sure, it is another t1 play that can irritate storm or belcher like chalice is- but I was viewing it as much for its interaction against fair decks- RUG or UR tempo decks, lilliana and burn. Just getting it down makes being on 3 much safer. Even if it only buys a turn, that may be the turn we win.
A first turn aegis should actually stop belcher winning there and then. Its just a 2/1 soldier we have a reasonable chance of seeing due to enlistment officers, and a reasonable chance of it resolving due to preeminent and cavern. I am only testing, but it seems fine so far.
Council's judgement will cost 4 with thalia down, and can't be put in off s and t....:eek:
On the play you can t1 pre eminent, or a chalice or thalia- both of which slows them down by a turn+ normally by hitting all spells or just making brainstorm not work
On your next turn if preminent is down drop in captain or another dude support to empty t3. if not then another bite at thalia. Or drop a karakas and smile.
When they emrakul of s and t the hookmaster in hand is normally enough- or karakas. If not drawing the guy and a cavern gets him out of the way for lethal.
On the draw they will go off t3/4 normally- which is again not always enough if you have hookmaster/karakas in hand- or have boarded in oring.