I actually tried Thalia with Elspeth (and Thorn of Amethyst). Elspeth kept costing 5+ mana, and that got prohibitive. As much as I liked her, I swapped Elspeth out for Jitte.
I also like 4 Thalia because she's a walking lock piece and people actually get mad at her, so they tend to remove her on sight.
Jotun Grunt may be a little finicky (requires at least 2 cards in a graveyard to be worth it), but I've liked him in testing. Cheating him in with Preeminent Captain is also funny, and he hits and blocks like a truck while he taxes graveyards.
My mistake on Hero. Is Mirror Entity worth playing though? Pumping your dudes up to like 5/5s or 7/7s seems good. Then again, you aren't making any tokens or hordes of small creatures. My other thought, and feel free to shoot this down if it's stupid, but what if the Suppression Fields (or anything else) became 4 Wastelands and you swapped Chrome Moxes for Mox Diamonds? Wasteland helps make Trinisphere and Thalia better, and Mox Diamonds turn Wastelands into colored mana and extra City of Traitors into mana as well.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
I've been doing alot of testing with the Pumping/Cost-cutting version lately. Some thoughts:
- On paper, Suppression Field looks amazing. In practice, too often it would not have an effect on the game. Too many times, I would play it after they had fetched most of their lands, or they would fetch in response to my playing it. Or they were simply playing decks that didn't need to activate alot of abilities. In the end, I think that playing this card is a waste of time. I have removed it from all of my Soldiers lists.
- I lost quite a few games to Show and Tell decks that popped Emrakul, the Aeons Torn into play. Subsequently I found out that this deck needs to play at least 2 Karakas in the main deck. Additionally, after cutting the Suppression Fields I had 4 slots open in the deck, which I filled with Kor Hookmaster. This guy is actually pretty strong in this deck because a.) it gives you an answer to Show and Tell -> Emrakul, at least for two turns. and b.) being able to tap a creature down for 2 turns is actually pretty powerful in general, against alot of different legacy decks, especially when you are playing a tempo aggro deck like Soldiers. I was playing 4 Hookmaster in the "utility soldiers" build but I think that he can just as easily fit into the "lords" build.
- I'm still torn as to whether to play Thorn of Amethyst, Umezawa's Jitte, or Trinisphere in the maindeck. Trinisphere doesnt' play well with the cost-cutting soldiers, because it will make everything cost at least 3 mana, regardless of cost-cutting. However, most times you will only have 1 or 2 cost-cutters in play, so it isn't a huge loss. Trinisphere also seems to affect decks more quickly in the early game. On the other hand, Thorn has the potential to affect spells on the higher end of the cost scale, such as big bombs like planeswalkers and wrath of god effects and such. Lastly, Jitte is just amazing against anything creature-based, and not completely blank against other decks either, as it can quicken the game clock against combo and control. Thorn is dead vs heavy creature decks. So all three options have their plusses and minuses. Right now I'm testing 3 Thorn in the maindeck with 3 Jitte in the sideboard.
- I agree with the poster named "PPa0" above regarding graveyard hate. If you're going to run it, you might as well run the most effective version possible; Leyline. I also like running the white Leyline to stop burn decks and discard decks, and some combo as well. So 4 Leyline of the Void and 4 Leyline of Sanctity seems to be pretty solid as a basis for the sideboard. I also love Cursed Totem as a 4-of vs. Maverick and Elves and other creature decks with lots of utility guys. I was playing Armageddon as a 4-of in the sideboard, and it's absolutely great vs. control decks, especially the mid-range B/G versions without counterspells. However, I don't know if it's worth playing over any of the Leylines, or over Cursed Totem.
- In response to DMel: I used to play Mirror Entity in much older versions of this deck, but I always found them to be too mana-intensive. Typically speaking, this deck is pretty mana-light and needs to extract as much performance from its manabase as possible, and to tie it up every turn to pump soldiers is a problem. This deck generally functions better with static effects (that don't require continued mana investment) such as the Marshal's +1/+1 pump or the Warchief's +1/+2 pump.
- Again to DMel: That idea about Mox Diamonds is definitely intriguing, and it could be a way to take the deck in a different direction. Obvoiusly, the reason to run Chrome Mox is to take advantage of fewer lands and more white-colored Soldiers in the deck. But if you add land, it could make the deck a little more consistent and enable you to play Diamond over Chrome Mox. On the other hand, it would make Preeminent Captain and Enlistment Officer weaker, due to fewer number of Soldiers. I've found that you typically need around 50% of the deck to be Soldiers to make Officer and Captain strong. Right now I'm playing 31 Soldiers, and running anything below 28 is not a good idea.
This list has been performing pretty well, but it's still pretty inconsistent, and I still feel as if something is missing. I dont' know if the list is just suboptimal (maybe take out the Bannerets for something? Switch Thorn with Jitte or Trinisphere?) or if Soldiers as a tribe are *still* just not good enough yet.
What Soldiers really need is a tutor Soldier, like their version of Goblin Matron. Or, they need Stoneforge Mystic to be a Soldier and not an "Artificer".
I find generally the problem with stompy deck as a whole is their lack of consistently. There is always a trade off between a consistent start or an explosive start. Something gotta gives although it is not impossible to find a good balance point.
If the store owner says that I can't trade in the premises, I'll just go outside. If he says that I can't trade within 10m of his premises, I'll go to 11 meters. If he says that he doesn't want to see me trading, I will put a basket over his head and continue trading.
Yes, he's a local legend. He's only known to take his clothes off before he goes into the Ladies' Lockerroom. Nobody knows what he does in there because he's invisible, but it's almost certainly tons of masturbating.
MTG-Fan I like the new list. What about trying to add adding in something like 1 Stoneforge and 1 Jitte mainboard and that could open up your sideboard for batterskull, sword of feast and famine and other equipments. I was thinking either that or adding in 2 Hero of Bladehold. She might not have good synergy with Preeminent Captain or Enlisted Officer but she herself is a powerhouse that adds so much threat to the board. As far as what I would take out for either of those 2 options would be 2 Kor Hookmaster. I understand that is pretty much the only way to deal with Emrakul but I rather go with one of my options which could lead to adding in 1-3 oblivion rings in the sideboard.
MTG-Fan I like the new list. What about trying to add adding in something like 1 Stoneforge and 1 Jitte mainboard and that could open up your sideboard for batterskull, sword of feast and famine and other equipments. I was thinking either that or adding in 2 Hero of Bladehold. She might not have good synergy with Preeminent Captain or Enlisted Officer but she herself is a powerhouse that adds so much threat to the board. As far as what I would take out for either of those 2 options would be 2 Kor Hookmaster. I understand that is pretty much the only way to deal with Emrakul but I rather go with one of my options which could lead to adding in 1-3 oblivion rings in the sideboard.
Stoneforge is powerful enough that you might be able to ignore the lack of Soldier type in her by-line, but this deck absolutely revolves around Preeminent Captain and Enlistement Officer, so adding any non-Soldier creature to the deck significantly weakens the synergy. The same thing goes for Hero of Bladehold. I don't think it's worth adding Hero to this deck when it's not even a Soldier.
I really would be hesitant to take out Hookmaster. He's won me so many games it's not even funny. I've won a ton of games in Legacy by a.) bringing Hookmaster in with a Preeminent Captain and tapping down their blocker and dealing lethal when otherwise I couldn't do it that turn and b.) tapping down guys like Emrakul when otherwise I couldn't win. Hookmaster gives you a maindeck solution to stuff like Emrakul, and he's still very good against any deck with creatures, especially when, as a Soldier deck you will often be trying to do lethal damage with a rush of attackers in one turn, and being able to tap down a blocker often means the difference between winning that turn or waiting a turn, after which they can find answers and beat you.
Understandable, you have done way more testing that I have so I see your point, I was just trying to add some suggestions. You said previously that it lacks consistency, but I am wondering, when you lost games/matches, was it because you didn't get a good draw or do you feel like this deck is weak versus certain MUs, and it is weak versus those MUs, what can be added/changed to make it a stronger versus them.
- On paper, Suppression Field looks amazing. In practice, too often it would not have an effect on the game. Too many times, I would play it after they had fetched most of their lands, or they would fetch in response to my playing it. Or they were simply playing decks that didn't need to activate alot of abilities. In the end, I think that playing this card is a waste of time. I have removed it from all of my Soldiers lists.
Funny how we are taking different directions. In my case suppression field is working pretty well, and I would not be ready to drop it, although I have to admit that I often board it out, especially on the draw. However it’s so brutal against certain decks that I like to have access to it mainboard.
I guess that without the S-fields I would test some cards with activated abilities, starting with wasteland. My goodness, how I miss wasteland…
On the other hand I find Thorn of Amethyst somehow disappointing, so I decided to move it to the sideboard.
I had (surprisingly) quite a lot of time to test the deck this week and I understand it better. Armageddon is indeed useful, but I still prefer to leave those slots for other cards.
I left in 2 Flagstones of Trokair although I removed the armageddons because surprisingly they keep on being useful.
A few oblivion rings are a must. I lost too many time to moat, ensnaring bridge, solitary confinement or the like. Leyline of Singularity is also good, as we still need an extra help against burn and storm, and it shines against discard as well. Wheel of sun and moon is working pretty well for me. I have never lost a game to dredge so far. I have limited experience with reanimator (only one game so far), maybe in that match-up they are not that good. However the wheels are useful in other less evident match-ups, such us loam decks.
The rest of the sideboard is still a lab. I think I will end up dropping completely the 2 Thorn of amethyst. Wrath of God are the latest twist and they are still largely untested. But I’m still looking for a solution against faster aggro decks.
I have not tested the hookmasters, but I will give it a try.
I’ll tell you more asap.
It's interesting that you find the SFields to be so powerful. I realize that they have a powerful effect, in theory, but in practice other decks just played around them easily enough that I decided to remove them for more Soldiers to make Captain and Officer stronger. However, I might need to do more testing with the Fields if you are having such positive results.
I do understand why you insist on the Oblivion Rings. This deck basically completely scoops to certain bombs such as Ensnaring Bridge or Humility or Moat. I guess I would probably remove my Jittes from the SB to make room for Ring if I ran it. I just don't really run into Bridge, Moat and Humility often enough, and Thalia+Thorn slows their arrival long enough, usually, that it isn't a problem.
Also, I love Wheel of Sun and Moon, but alot of times against Dredge or Reanimator, you need to have the card in play before he can use discard spells to force you to get rid of it. That's why I play Leyline of the Void I mean, if you're going to mulligan until you get your grave-hate in g2, Leyline is better anyway. But obviously, Wheel is better in matchups where you don't care if you get it in your opening hand or not, as you can cast it easily.
Some recent thoughts:
- I'm testing Veteran Swordsmith in place of Field Marshall. His +1/+0 effect isn't as nice as +1/+1 and first strike, but a.) losing +0/+1 isn't terrible, b.) his 3/2 body is bigger than Marshall's 2/2 c.) most soldiers in the deck have first strike anyway so the Marshall effect is redundant and d.) Swordsmith has a 2W casting cost which is often easier to pay than 1WW.
- Do you guys think that Veteran's Armaments would be worthwhile to play as a Cranial Plating type of card for Soldiers, or is it simply win-more in Legacy? I'm leaning toward the latter, but it's always worth investigating some stuff.
Understandable, you have done way more testing that I have so I see your point, I was just trying to add some suggestions. You said previously that it lacks consistency, but I am wondering, when you lost games/matches, was it because you didn't get a good draw or do you feel like this deck is weak versus certain MUs, and it is weak versus those MUs, what can be added/changed to make it a stronger versus them.
In my most recent testing, I've found that this deck basically only loses to three types of decks:
- Control decks that drop bombs such as Wrath of God, Moat, Ensnaring Bridge, Solitary Confinement, etc. before you can slow them down with Thorn and/or Thalia and do lethal damage.
- Any deck heavy on removal, whether that's a control deck or not. If they kill off key Soldiers such as Preeminent and Lords, they can disrupt your entire gameplan. A deck with 4-6 removal MD is not a problem, but some decks with HEAVY removal are (like Black/Green Pox with Pulse, Edicts, etc, or B/R Goblins with 4 Warren Weirding and 4 Gempalm and 4 Matron to get them)
Now, obviously, this deck also loses quite a bit to itself - i.e. it is very dependant on its initial hand. But all Tomb-based decks are like this.
This is going to sound dumb but when my local meta was populated with countertop, affinity and enchantress decks I was actually running 2 Fracturing Gust in my SB. If you manage to win game 1, and game 2 you can catch your opponent off guard, that card changes the tide of the battle. However if you do think its too silly, what you can try running is X Disenchant in sideboard or Kor Sanctifiers/Leonin Relic-Warder, though they are not soldiers obviously, they put at least some amount of board clock. Second Sunrise is gimmicky as well but vs Pox/Wrath it would be very useful.
Catapult squad, that‘s the cart I was looking for!
I know I’m not inventing anything new, but these guys solve many of our problems. I had to remove “my” suppression fields in order to use it, but the deck is much better know, with a way to affect creatures on the board. Now I don’t die anymore (ok, I die much less…) to delver of secrets and batterskull.
Try them, you won’t regret it!
I still badly lose (in order):
- to Progenitus
- to RUG… I have the impression they have an answer to whatever I throw at them
- heavy control decks, we are too slow to race them before they control the board.
If you guys have any idea to improve those MUs…let me know !
Btw, MTG-Fan how were your testing with Veteran Swordsmith and Veteran's Armaments ?
Cavern of Souls seems like it would be an instant add to this, and would help against RUG Delver as well. Though your multiple ways to make a turn one Chalice on 1 also help that matchup.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
Cavern of Souls is basically tailor-made for a deck like this, especially the lists playing more than 50% Soldiers. The only downside is the fact that it is another Wasteland target if you take out Plains to make room for Cavern.
Another card from the new set that is interesting in this deck is the 3W Goldnight Commander. I don't know if it's good enough to fit into the deck, though.
Anyway, Cavern might just make this deck really good. If you consider that one of these lands in play makes more than half of the deck uncounterable...
How does this deck plays out against the likes of first turn Delver of Secrets(Tempo Thresh) or first turn Mother of Runes(Maverick), seeing that these 2 decks are all over the legacy meta and I noticed the Soldier Stompy list do not run any form of removals at all. I mean it's great if we pull off an opening turn Chalice of the Void but that will be subject to us starting first and evading countermagic. Or is Catapult Squad really the answer for us?
I think the key to this deck is to just focus on doing what you do best, i.e.: being the aggressor and doing as much damage as possible, all while backed up with light disruption (Thalia/Trinisphere/Chalice).
With that mindset, it becomes important to play the biggest soldiers, and the fastest soldiers, and it has brought me to the conclusion that this deck needs to run 4 Porcelain Legionnaire maindeck. This guy does damage fast, all while being capable of being cast off of one sol-land. Similarly, this deck needs to play Veteran Swordsmith instead of Field Marshal because the Swordsmith does more damage by itself (3/2 instead of 2/2) and because he can be cast more easily (2W instead of 1WW).
I also decided I need 4 Serenity in the SB to take care of Affinity and stuff like Moat or Ensnaring Bridge. It's not as effective as a sorcery, but it's infinitely easier to cast (1W), and this deck will often be forced to operate with only one white source in play at a time.
I think this is getting closer to a pretty competitive list. The ability to land Trinisphere or Chalice and then do a lot of damage quickly is pretty effective against alot of decks. And then, instead of focusing on trying to play answers to *their* creatures, you just try to kill them as fast as possible, a la Affinity or Mono Black Suicide.
Im rather curious as to the veterans armaments in this build. I was running soldiers for a long time however it was more of a token soldiers build. Even so people underestimated its power often my 1/1s were swinging for 5 or 6 and turned small bodies into large blockers. Plus side is it equips to soldiers free so off the captain even. Anyone actually play tested it?
This is from memory so numbers maybe off and I dont remember the sideboard but the deck performed nicely against an array of legacy decks. Trinisphere were in the sideboard with more removal, non-creature removal, grave hate, and Leyline of sanctity or something like that
Some notes: T1-2 Gatekeeper is simply too good. Horizon canopy adds mana early and gets you a card when you have to many lands. Crib swap is removal that can be grabbed by officer and its cost is reduced by warchief and so. Soltari champion wins races and gets through when the game is stuck. Jitte is bonkers.
-Catapult squad: I don't like it, first strike and 12 lords should be enough
-Porcelain legionnaire: Seems too painfull, -1-1s and burn takes him down. I think I like more lords in his place
-Thalia: Im not convinced since I run removal, also she makes chrome mox a dead draw
-Etched champion and Cavern of souls: These are the ones I like, I think I'll test them in a future build
Some notes: T1-2 Gatekeeper is simply too good. Horizon canopy adds mana early and gets you a card when you have to many lands. Crib swap is removal that can be grabbed by officer and its cost is reduced by warchief and so. Soltari champion wins races and gets through when the game is stuck. Jitte is bonkers.
I playtested Gatekeeper for a couple of weeks and found that it often came down too late to make a serious impact. It has a nice ability, but its cost (2WW) prevents it from landing in turns 1-3 with any consistency, and in later turns, this deck would rather have something like a pump effect to close the game out instead of a disruption effect. If it was 2W, it would be an auto-include, but the extra white mana requirement really kills its effectiveness.
Soltari Champion is nice, and if you notice my initial post I had a build that featured this guy, but would you rather have his 2/2 body instead of, say, a 3/1 or a 3/2? Alot of times you will be trying to win games with 1-2 creatures on the board, and the extra power will matter. Blocking also will matter in some games, and a 3/1 first striker will be able to block more creatures effectively than a 2/2.
Jitte is obviously a great card, and I always want to run it, but in the end cut it for more Soldiers (to make Captain and Officer better) or disruption (because Jitte does very little against combo and control).
-Thalia: Im not convinced since I run removal, also she makes chrome mox a dead draw
Thalia is great and one of the main reasons to run this deck. You have to run four copies of her. Making Chrome Mox a dead draw is a complete non-argument, because ANY Chrome Mox you draw outside of the first few turns is a dead draw. That's just the price you pay for early acceleration. I wouldn't run removal, either, outside of maybe Jitte.
The things that Thalia does:
- Makes Jace or Elspeth cost 5 mana instead of 4 and can mean the difference between your opponent stabilizing before you kill them or not
- Makes cantrips like Brainstorm and Ponder cost 2 mana, slowing down an opponent considerably while you kill them
- Completely neuters opposing Storm combo until they remove her, and allows you to kill them through the combat step in Game 1.
- Slows down Show and Tell combo by making SnT cost 4 and Sneak Attack cost 5
- Makes GSZ less efficient
- Slows down Dredge long enough to allow you to steal G1 against a Dredge player that can't cast his Dread Returns
- Makes RUG Delver a much more inefficient deck if she sticks against them
- Blocks first turn bombs such as Goblin Lackey like a champ - because of First Strike, she doesn't die to anyone with power less than 3
- And all of this as a Soldier that can be pumped by Lords, put into play with Captain, or fetched by Officer
Gatekeeper on turn 2 isnt that dificult to pull, you can play:
2mana land, 2 moxes > gatekeeper
plains, 2mana land, mox > gatekeeper
2mana land, mox, p.captain > gatekeeper
any land, plains, mox, banneret > gatekeeper
I'm sugesting soltari champion as a 1/2of, it's utily is sutational but at least he forces 2 damage and gives +1+1 to yourm team.
Tbh I havent tested thalia at all, as I said I built my deck like a year ago, but you have some good points. Now Im thinking thalia plus gatekeeper could be really devastating, maybe we wont even need trinisphere anymore.
Gatekeeper is definitely nice and I've come around to the fact that he might belong in the maindeck. I like him alot more in the versions running 4 Suppression Field, as Field + Gatekeeper is almost like a mini-lock early in the game.
I've come to the conclusion that there are basically two ways to build this deck - one version built around Suppression Field and another version built around Trinisphere. The Field version will be more focused on playing Plains rather than Sol-lands, and will play 4 Ballyrush Banneret. The Trinisphere version will be more focused on playing City of Traitors in addition to Ancient Tomb, and will not play Ballyrush Banneret, and instead will focus more on Etched Champion and Porcelain Legionnaire.
If you're not running Ballyrush Banneret, I recommend lowering the Captain of the Watch number to 2 or less. I don't run Ballyrush Banneret, and even though I run Daru Warchief, I've found that basically the only way I can play Captain in a timely fashion is by cheating it out with Preeminent Captain.
If you're not running Ballyrush Banneret, I recommend lowering the Captain of the Watch number to 2 or less. I don't run Ballyrush Banneret, and even though I run Daru Warchief, I've found that basically the only way I can play Captain in a timely fashion is by cheating it out with Preeminent Captain.
This is mostly true - Preeminent->CotW is the best combat play this deck has, and playing CotW outside of that is only feasible with at least one cost-cutter on the board, typically speaking.
How has Loxodon Gatekeeper worked out for you? What do you think is the optimal number of this guy to put into this deck?
Also, how do you feel about Trinisphere vs. Suppression Field? Is it possible / desirable to even run them in the same list?
what do you guys think about remote farm in this deck?
Intriguing, but coming into play tapped can be so bad in Legacy, especially for a deck that wants to maximize its effectiveness early in the game. I feel that these lands are better for control decks or decks with a very strong late-game, such as MUD/Stax type of decks.
Pearl Medallion and Ballyrush Banneret really smooths out the high CMC of our soldiers. It seems many of you guys like Suppression Field and Trinisphere, but Oblivion Ring really helps on game one against an unknown deck IMO.
Sometimes I will have Pearl Medallion in my hand with only one Plains, and wish the Pearl Medallion was another Plains. Sometimes, I have Ancient Tomb and Pearl Medallion and remembered why it was so awesome. I think 20 lands on this build is sufficient too.
To be honest, I don't really know when I would rather have Suppression Field over Oblivion Ring. I side in 3 Loxodon Gatekeeper against Sneak Attack.
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I also like 4 Thalia because she's a walking lock piece and people actually get mad at her, so they tend to remove her on sight.
Also, sadly, Hero of Bladehold is a Knight, not a Soldier, so Enlistment Officer and Preeminent Captain don't like her.
Jotun Grunt may be a little finicky (requires at least 2 cards in a graveyard to be worth it), but I've liked him in testing. Cheating him in with Preeminent Captain is also funny, and he hits and blocks like a truck while he taxes graveyards.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
- On paper, Suppression Field looks amazing. In practice, too often it would not have an effect on the game. Too many times, I would play it after they had fetched most of their lands, or they would fetch in response to my playing it. Or they were simply playing decks that didn't need to activate alot of abilities. In the end, I think that playing this card is a waste of time. I have removed it from all of my Soldiers lists.
- I lost quite a few games to Show and Tell decks that popped Emrakul, the Aeons Torn into play. Subsequently I found out that this deck needs to play at least 2 Karakas in the main deck. Additionally, after cutting the Suppression Fields I had 4 slots open in the deck, which I filled with Kor Hookmaster. This guy is actually pretty strong in this deck because a.) it gives you an answer to Show and Tell -> Emrakul, at least for two turns. and b.) being able to tap a creature down for 2 turns is actually pretty powerful in general, against alot of different legacy decks, especially when you are playing a tempo aggro deck like Soldiers. I was playing 4 Hookmaster in the "utility soldiers" build but I think that he can just as easily fit into the "lords" build.
- I'm still torn as to whether to play Thorn of Amethyst, Umezawa's Jitte, or Trinisphere in the maindeck. Trinisphere doesnt' play well with the cost-cutting soldiers, because it will make everything cost at least 3 mana, regardless of cost-cutting. However, most times you will only have 1 or 2 cost-cutters in play, so it isn't a huge loss. Trinisphere also seems to affect decks more quickly in the early game. On the other hand, Thorn has the potential to affect spells on the higher end of the cost scale, such as big bombs like planeswalkers and wrath of god effects and such. Lastly, Jitte is just amazing against anything creature-based, and not completely blank against other decks either, as it can quicken the game clock against combo and control. Thorn is dead vs heavy creature decks. So all three options have their plusses and minuses. Right now I'm testing 3 Thorn in the maindeck with 3 Jitte in the sideboard.
- I agree with the poster named "PPa0" above regarding graveyard hate. If you're going to run it, you might as well run the most effective version possible; Leyline. I also like running the white Leyline to stop burn decks and discard decks, and some combo as well. So 4 Leyline of the Void and 4 Leyline of Sanctity seems to be pretty solid as a basis for the sideboard. I also love Cursed Totem as a 4-of vs. Maverick and Elves and other creature decks with lots of utility guys. I was playing Armageddon as a 4-of in the sideboard, and it's absolutely great vs. control decks, especially the mid-range B/G versions without counterspells. However, I don't know if it's worth playing over any of the Leylines, or over Cursed Totem.
- In response to DMel: I used to play Mirror Entity in much older versions of this deck, but I always found them to be too mana-intensive. Typically speaking, this deck is pretty mana-light and needs to extract as much performance from its manabase as possible, and to tie it up every turn to pump soldiers is a problem. This deck generally functions better with static effects (that don't require continued mana investment) such as the Marshal's +1/+1 pump or the Warchief's +1/+2 pump.
- Again to DMel: That idea about Mox Diamonds is definitely intriguing, and it could be a way to take the deck in a different direction. Obvoiusly, the reason to run Chrome Mox is to take advantage of fewer lands and more white-colored Soldiers in the deck. But if you add land, it could make the deck a little more consistent and enable you to play Diamond over Chrome Mox. On the other hand, it would make Preeminent Captain and Enlistment Officer weaker, due to fewer number of Soldiers. I've found that you typically need around 50% of the deck to be Soldiers to make Officer and Captain strong. Right now I'm playing 31 Soldiers, and running anything below 28 is not a good idea.
This is the list as I'm testing it right now:
2 Karakas
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Enlistment Officer
4 Kor Hookmaster
4 Daru Warchief
3 Field Marshal
4 Captain of the Watch
4 Cursed Totem
4 Leyline of Singularity
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte
What Soldiers really need is a tutor Soldier, like their version of Goblin Matron. Or, they need Stoneforge Mystic to be a Soldier and not an "Artificer".
Stoneforge is powerful enough that you might be able to ignore the lack of Soldier type in her by-line, but this deck absolutely revolves around Preeminent Captain and Enlistement Officer, so adding any non-Soldier creature to the deck significantly weakens the synergy. The same thing goes for Hero of Bladehold. I don't think it's worth adding Hero to this deck when it's not even a Soldier.
I really would be hesitant to take out Hookmaster. He's won me so many games it's not even funny. I've won a ton of games in Legacy by a.) bringing Hookmaster in with a Preeminent Captain and tapping down their blocker and dealing lethal when otherwise I couldn't do it that turn and b.) tapping down guys like Emrakul when otherwise I couldn't win. Hookmaster gives you a maindeck solution to stuff like Emrakul, and he's still very good against any deck with creatures, especially when, as a Soldier deck you will often be trying to do lethal damage with a rush of attackers in one turn, and being able to tap down a blocker often means the difference between winning that turn or waiting a turn, after which they can find answers and beat you.
Funny how we are taking different directions. In my case suppression field is working pretty well, and I would not be ready to drop it, although I have to admit that I often board it out, especially on the draw. However it’s so brutal against certain decks that I like to have access to it mainboard.
I guess that without the S-fields I would test some cards with activated abilities, starting with wasteland. My goodness, how I miss wasteland…
On the other hand I find Thorn of Amethyst somehow disappointing, so I decided to move it to the sideboard.
My current list is:
3 Karakas
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
2 oblivion ring
4 Suppression field
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Enlistment Officer
4 Daru Warchief
4 Field Marshal
4 Captain of the Watch
3 Cursed Totem
4 Leyline of Singularity
3 wheel of sun and moon
3 wrath of God
2 Thorn of Amethyst
I had (surprisingly) quite a lot of time to test the deck this week and I understand it better.
Armageddon is indeed useful, but I still prefer to leave those slots for other cards.
I left in 2 Flagstones of Trokair although I removed the armageddons because surprisingly they keep on being useful.
A few oblivion rings are a must. I lost too many time to moat, ensnaring bridge, solitary confinement or the like.
Leyline of Singularity is also good, as we still need an extra help against burn and storm, and it shines against discard as well.
Wheel of sun and moon is working pretty well for me. I have never lost a game to dredge so far. I have limited experience with reanimator (only one game so far), maybe in that match-up they are not that good. However the wheels are useful in other less evident match-ups, such us loam decks.
The rest of the sideboard is still a lab. I think I will end up dropping completely the 2 Thorn of amethyst. Wrath of God are the latest twist and they are still largely untested. But I’m still looking for a solution against faster aggro decks.
I have not tested the hookmasters, but I will give it a try.
I’ll tell you more asap.
I do understand why you insist on the Oblivion Rings. This deck basically completely scoops to certain bombs such as Ensnaring Bridge or Humility or Moat. I guess I would probably remove my Jittes from the SB to make room for Ring if I ran it. I just don't really run into Bridge, Moat and Humility often enough, and Thalia+Thorn slows their arrival long enough, usually, that it isn't a problem.
Also, I love Wheel of Sun and Moon, but alot of times against Dredge or Reanimator, you need to have the card in play before he can use discard spells to force you to get rid of it. That's why I play Leyline of the Void I mean, if you're going to mulligan until you get your grave-hate in g2, Leyline is better anyway. But obviously, Wheel is better in matchups where you don't care if you get it in your opening hand or not, as you can cast it easily.
Some recent thoughts:
- I'm testing Veteran Swordsmith in place of Field Marshall. His +1/+0 effect isn't as nice as +1/+1 and first strike, but a.) losing +0/+1 isn't terrible, b.) his 3/2 body is bigger than Marshall's 2/2 c.) most soldiers in the deck have first strike anyway so the Marshall effect is redundant and d.) Swordsmith has a 2W casting cost which is often easier to pay than 1WW.
- Do you guys think that Veteran's Armaments would be worthwhile to play as a Cranial Plating type of card for Soldiers, or is it simply win-more in Legacy? I'm leaning toward the latter, but it's always worth investigating some stuff.
In my most recent testing, I've found that this deck basically only loses to three types of decks:
- Any Stoneforge Mystic-based deck that gets a very quick Batterskull into play before you can do lethal damage
- Control decks that drop bombs such as Wrath of God, Moat, Ensnaring Bridge, Solitary Confinement, etc. before you can slow them down with Thorn and/or Thalia and do lethal damage.
- Any deck heavy on removal, whether that's a control deck or not. If they kill off key Soldiers such as Preeminent and Lords, they can disrupt your entire gameplan. A deck with 4-6 removal MD is not a problem, but some decks with HEAVY removal are (like Black/Green Pox with Pulse, Edicts, etc, or B/R Goblins with 4 Warren Weirding and 4 Gempalm and 4 Matron to get them)
Now, obviously, this deck also loses quite a bit to itself - i.e. it is very dependant on its initial hand. But all Tomb-based decks are like this.
I know I’m not inventing anything new, but these guys solve many of our problems. I had to remove “my” suppression fields in order to use it, but the deck is much better know, with a way to affect creatures on the board. Now I don’t die anymore (ok, I die much less…) to delver of secrets and batterskull.
Try them, you won’t regret it!
So my current list is:
3 Karakas
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ballyrush Banneret
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Enlistment Officer
4 Daru Warchief
3 Field Marshal
4 Captain of the Watch
3 Cursed Totem
4 Leyline of Singularity
4 wheel of sun and moon
2 wrath of God
2 oblivion ring
I still badly lose (in order):
- to Progenitus
- to RUG… I have the impression they have an answer to whatever I throw at them
- heavy control decks, we are too slow to race them before they control the board.
If you guys have any idea to improve those MUs…let me know !
Btw, MTG-Fan how were your testing with Veteran Swordsmith and Veteran's Armaments ?
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
Another card from the new set that is interesting in this deck is the 3W Goldnight Commander. I don't know if it's good enough to fit into the deck, though.
Anyway, Cavern might just make this deck really good. If you consider that one of these lands in play makes more than half of the deck uncounterable...
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
With that mindset, it becomes important to play the biggest soldiers, and the fastest soldiers, and it has brought me to the conclusion that this deck needs to run 4 Porcelain Legionnaire maindeck. This guy does damage fast, all while being capable of being cast off of one sol-land. Similarly, this deck needs to play Veteran Swordsmith instead of Field Marshal because the Swordsmith does more damage by itself (3/2 instead of 2/2) and because he can be cast more easily (2W instead of 1WW).
I also decided I need 4 Serenity in the SB to take care of Affinity and stuff like Moat or Ensnaring Bridge. It's not as effective as a sorcery, but it's infinitely easier to cast (1W), and this deck will often be forced to operate with only one white source in play at a time.
My latest list:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Karakas
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Enlistment Officer
4 Captain of the Watch
4 Daru Warchief
4 Porcelain Legionnaire
3 Veteran Swordsmith
4 Serenity
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Armageddon
I think this is getting closer to a pretty competitive list. The ability to land Trinisphere or Chalice and then do a lot of damage quickly is pretty effective against alot of decks. And then, instead of focusing on trying to play answers to *their* creatures, you just try to kill them as fast as possible, a la Affinity or Mono Black Suicide.
5x Plains
4x Ancient tomb
4x City of traitors
3x Horizon canopy
2x Flagstones of trokair
2x Karakas
4x Preeminent captain
3x Loxodon gatekeeper
4x Enlistment officer
4x Ballyrush banneret
4x Daru warchief
3x Field marshal
2x Veteran swordsmith
2x Captain of the watch
1x Soltari champion
4x Chrome mox
4x Chalice of the void
2x Oblivion ring
2x Crib swap
1x Umezawa's jitte
This is from memory so numbers maybe off and I dont remember the sideboard but the deck performed nicely against an array of legacy decks. Trinisphere were in the sideboard with more removal, non-creature removal, grave hate, and Leyline of sanctity or something like that
Some notes: T1-2 Gatekeeper is simply too good. Horizon canopy adds mana early and gets you a card when you have to many lands. Crib swap is removal that can be grabbed by officer and its cost is reduced by warchief and so. Soltari champion wins races and gets through when the game is stuck. Jitte is bonkers.
-Catapult squad: I don't like it, first strike and 12 lords should be enough
-Porcelain legionnaire: Seems too painfull, -1-1s and burn takes him down. I think I like more lords in his place
-Thalia: Im not convinced since I run removal, also she makes chrome mox a dead draw
-Etched champion and Cavern of souls: These are the ones I like, I think I'll test them in a future build
I playtested Gatekeeper for a couple of weeks and found that it often came down too late to make a serious impact. It has a nice ability, but its cost (2WW) prevents it from landing in turns 1-3 with any consistency, and in later turns, this deck would rather have something like a pump effect to close the game out instead of a disruption effect. If it was 2W, it would be an auto-include, but the extra white mana requirement really kills its effectiveness.
Soltari Champion is nice, and if you notice my initial post I had a build that featured this guy, but would you rather have his 2/2 body instead of, say, a 3/1 or a 3/2? Alot of times you will be trying to win games with 1-2 creatures on the board, and the extra power will matter. Blocking also will matter in some games, and a 3/1 first striker will be able to block more creatures effectively than a 2/2.
Jitte is obviously a great card, and I always want to run it, but in the end cut it for more Soldiers (to make Captain and Officer better) or disruption (because Jitte does very little against combo and control).
Thalia is great and one of the main reasons to run this deck. You have to run four copies of her. Making Chrome Mox a dead draw is a complete non-argument, because ANY Chrome Mox you draw outside of the first few turns is a dead draw. That's just the price you pay for early acceleration. I wouldn't run removal, either, outside of maybe Jitte.
The things that Thalia does:
- Makes Jace or Elspeth cost 5 mana instead of 4 and can mean the difference between your opponent stabilizing before you kill them or not
- Makes cantrips like Brainstorm and Ponder cost 2 mana, slowing down an opponent considerably while you kill them
- Completely neuters opposing Storm combo until they remove her, and allows you to kill them through the combat step in Game 1.
- Slows down Show and Tell combo by making SnT cost 4 and Sneak Attack cost 5
- Makes GSZ less efficient
- Slows down Dredge long enough to allow you to steal G1 against a Dredge player that can't cast his Dread Returns
- Makes RUG Delver a much more inefficient deck if she sticks against them
- Blocks first turn bombs such as Goblin Lackey like a champ - because of First Strike, she doesn't die to anyone with power less than 3
- And all of this as a Soldier that can be pumped by Lords, put into play with Captain, or fetched by Officer
2mana land, 2 moxes > gatekeeper
plains, 2mana land, mox > gatekeeper
2mana land, mox, p.captain > gatekeeper
any land, plains, mox, banneret > gatekeeper
I'm sugesting soltari champion as a 1/2of, it's utily is sutational but at least he forces 2 damage and gives +1+1 to yourm team.
Tbh I havent tested thalia at all, as I said I built my deck like a year ago, but you have some good points. Now Im thinking thalia plus gatekeeper could be really devastating, maybe we wont even need trinisphere anymore.
I've come to the conclusion that there are basically two ways to build this deck - one version built around Suppression Field and another version built around Trinisphere. The Field version will be more focused on playing Plains rather than Sol-lands, and will play 4 Ballyrush Banneret. The Trinisphere version will be more focused on playing City of Traitors in addition to Ancient Tomb, and will not play Ballyrush Banneret, and instead will focus more on Etched Champion and Porcelain Legionnaire.
Version 1:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Suppression Field
4 Ballyrush Banneret
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Enlistment Officer
4 Daru Warchief
4 Field Marshal
3 Loxodon Gatekeeper
3 Captain of the Watch
Version 2:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Karakas
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
1 Veteran's Armaments
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Enlistment Officer
4 Daru Warchief
4 Veteran Swordsmith
4 Porcelain Legionnaire
3 Etched Champion
3 Captain of the Watch
The SB is basically whatever mix of the following that one prefers:
Armageddon
Leyline of Sanctity
Thorn of Amethyst
Oblivion Ring
Umezawa's Jitte
Show n Tell hate (Phyrexian Metamorph / Intrepid Hero)
Graveyard Hate (Crypt / Relic / Leyline / Surgical)
This is mostly true - Preeminent->CotW is the best combat play this deck has, and playing CotW outside of that is only feasible with at least one cost-cutter on the board, typically speaking.
How has Loxodon Gatekeeper worked out for you? What do you think is the optimal number of this guy to put into this deck?
Also, how do you feel about Trinisphere vs. Suppression Field? Is it possible / desirable to even run them in the same list?
Intriguing, but coming into play tapped can be so bad in Legacy, especially for a deck that wants to maximize its effectiveness early in the game. I feel that these lands are better for control decks or decks with a very strong late-game, such as MUD/Stax type of decks.
12 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern Of Souls
//Engine
4 Pearl Medallion
4 Ballyrush Banneret
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Enlistment Officer
4 Daru Warchief
4 Field Marshal
4 Captain of the Watch
//Control
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Chalice of the Void
//Removal
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Loxodon Gatekeeper
4 Suppression Field
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Tormod's Crypt
Pearl Medallion and Ballyrush Banneret really smooths out the high CMC of our soldiers. It seems many of you guys like Suppression Field and Trinisphere, but Oblivion Ring really helps on game one against an unknown deck IMO.
Sometimes I will have Pearl Medallion in my hand with only one Plains, and wish the Pearl Medallion was another Plains. Sometimes, I have Ancient Tomb and Pearl Medallion and remembered why it was so awesome. I think 20 lands on this build is sufficient too.
To be honest, I don't really know when I would rather have Suppression Field over Oblivion Ring. I side in 3 Loxodon Gatekeeper against Sneak Attack.