You need white and a hig critter density, and soldiers are not MUD. 4 ancient tombs is about the limit for me, unless you up the land count, lowering critter density. Its surprising how often you get col screwed in mono w stax, for example, with all the sol lands- even with moxen, or screwed for BB in mono b pox. Even mono decks have their limit. With moxen and tombs there is some handy acceleration.
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Sure, I can see it isn't MUD. Its just that this reminds me of the Dragon Stompy deck, which is pretty reliant on having 8 Sol lands. I suppose Preeminent Captain helps mitigate that need.
Very much so. I was not meaning to sound condescending- it is just that with our cheap hate bears we are really playing more like a slightly more aggro death and taxes, made by combining men and some stax-mud effects to make up for our relative lack of taxes. An early thalia/chalice/aegis [I know I am one of the few people running him] can keep you from insta-death. An early chalice/suppression field is a very mud/stax play, and captain sort of fills the role of accelerating you like the grim monolith in mud. I can see that you could up the land count by the odd sol land, but 8 for me with moxen would be OTT as we have little to accelerate into- the ballyrush and captains mean we don't get big top end stuff to accelerate into, bar captain. The curve sort of stops at 3 in effect.
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Thanks for the detailed response. Do you feel that the double white in Brimaz's casting cost is too prohibitive for this sort of deck? He looks good on paper. If you're wondering, my friends and I are going to do a five-way legacy stompy match later this month: dragon stompy vs faerie stompy vs demon stompy vs troll stompy vs soldier stompy, so I wanted to get a good idea of how this version of the stompy deck runs.
I'm in the minority here, because almost everyone else in this thread plays 0 Cities, but I personally think that *not* playing at least 2 City of Traitors is a mistake.
Early Chalice @ 1 and early Preeminent Captain are this deck's two most powerful plays. You want to enable these plays as often as possible. Going to 4 Tombs and 2 City of Traitors or even 3 City of Traitors gives you more potential early Chalices and early Preeminent Captains. It also gives you the more consistent ability to hardcast Enlistment Officer and Captain of the Watch. The only downside to City is that it sometimes eats itself if you play it early, and you can't play as many WW Soldiers. I don't play Field Marshal at all, for example, and instead play Veteran Swordsmith.
But really, if you consider the power of Chalice @ 1 and Preeminent Captain, *and* faster Enlistment Officer and Captain of the Watch, I think the downsides of City of Traitors are worth the upside.
@the iron captain- stompy vs stompy sounds good. But some cards - eg chalice may not be as good as it is in a general environ. I would be tempted to change the build to include more anti critter measures- even playing a couple of one drop tappers...
@mtg fan- I think it my choice of men - with first striking marshals and generally cheap curve means they would be wrong for me. I could see myself going up to 5, perhaps. I have found marshals to be excellent- the first strike is so good in some matches.
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Field Marshal's first strike granting ability, in my opinion, is too often redundant.
Preeminent Captain, Thalia, and Enlistment Officer all already have first strike. Additionally, I play Porcelain Legionaire, which has first strike. So essentially, Field Marshal is tougher to cast and has one less power than Veteran Swordsmith, at the cost of less toughness in his pump ability.
Legacy is all about tempo and speed. Being able to play something one turn earlier is often the difference between winning and losing in Legacy. City of traitors (and subsequently more colorless casting cost soldiers like Veteran Swordsmith and Porcelain Legionaire) make this deck faster and thus more effective, in my opinion.
These are the decklists I've been testing and having success with.
I actually think the artifact themed one is better, because Phyrexian Revoker is too good to not play, and the artifact theme gives the deck more incentive to play it. A metalcrafted etched champion is very powerful as well, and there are just more obstacles for the opponents to overcome. Gatekeeper is amazing, especially with Winter Orb.
I'm thinking that the core of the deck could be changed up to support more of an artifact theme, maybe with Aether Vial and more Mox Opals and the other metalcrafted soldiers, but disruption is key in legacy so I just am not sure if fat weenies will do the trick. Is it really bad to play aether Vial in a stompy deck? Could we run a vial list with Chrome Mox? Should it be stompy or non-stompy? I don't think it's such a terrible idea to put aether vial in a stompy deck. the lack of lands allow us to put more creatures in making up for the extra non creature slots for Aether Vial. Could we use Rishadan Port and Wasteland like d&t? They go beautifully with Loxodon Gatekeeper.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
@mtg fan- I do not run porcelain legionaire, and I do run both the ballyrush and 3 aegis-plus only one warchief so you can see why I may need the first strike more than you.
I agree legacy is about tempo and speed- to which I would add- disruption of course. That is why you want the extra sol lands- you look to disrupt early and want pacey starts as often as possible - I have chopped a lot of the top end off to get that extra speed- and included 3 disrupting aegis at the lower end (+3 hookmasters for disruption in critter matches) which also help- so I am on your wavelength, but just a couple of different cards here and there meaning I need other different cards to get slightly different synergies- to achieve similar effect.
Incidentally the aegis has been effective, certainly vs fair decks like red based delver (UR/ or URW) and BUG decks (lilly and discard spells), jund and pox etc.
Dragon stompy of course uses the full sol land set- but they do use 3sphere and chalice main.
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Someone thought use Enlightened Tutor? I'm testing use 3 in main deck. It have a problem with calice but possible make a lot of think only 1 off in side and main deck.
Why have you guys shifted towards a build with no 3sphere, fewer Sol lands and 4 Ballyrush? Is this a meta thing, or were people just getting sick of the inconsistency of the stompy shell? What's wrong with 3sphere?
Trinisphere is bad in this deck, and mediocre in Legacy in general. It doesn't create any real card advantage unless you can keep them low on mana the entire game. Chalice of the Void is different in that it shuts off entire classes of spells indefinitely.
Once an opponent develops his manabase past three lands, he can cast any bomb (Liliana, jace, tarmogoyf, stoneforge, etc) without problems, and will gladly pay 2 more mana for a brainstorm if he has enough land in play.
Additionally, Trinisphere completely negates the cost-reduction effects of Ballyrush Banneret and Daru Warchief, which are important in this deck.
This new soldier looks like it might be playable. I'm going to test him in place of Porcelain Legionnaire in my deck. The new bird can be cast for 3 colorless, and you can play combat tricks vs. Delver decks.
Why, oh WHY couldn't they have made this other one a Bird Soldier instead of just a Bird?
Imagine putting this into play off a Preeminent Captain. That would have been sooo sick.
Given that pre eminent captain is currently in standard I imagine you have your answer, sir! Has brimaz been helpful? (It's been a long while since I played or saw this played in legacy.
Brimaz has not made my list. It does not do what we want.....he is a decent beater, but we have lots and lots of them anyway. He offers a good board presence, but Captain of the Watch offers a massive one, and the Brimaz card advantage is only so-so compared to enlistment officers. There are only so many board presence cards we need.
The most peculiar thing I found is when testing Brimaz a few months ago I found Kor Hookmaster- my original proxy for Brimaz- would have been better in most situations, which is how I ended up running a near conventional list with a couple of out of place odd looking Hookmasters.
For me white soldier stompy needs to interact with the opponent's stuff a little more for when the chalice plan does not come off. Thalia rocks,and it would be nice to have a bit more interaction. Hopeful for Khans.
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Looks playable! Definitely worth a test. Could be a late-game mana dump and getting a 3/4 flier for 4 mana in this deck isn't the worst thing earlier on, especially given how much this deck struggles vs. early flipped Delver.
This guy is also playable. Like the one above, kind of a nonbo with Suppression Field, BUT he is essentially a 3/4 flier for 2W + W. And has nice synergy with the Sentinels.
Not bad, Wizards, not bad. At the very least it looks like we will see strong Soldier decks in Standard!
I've been testing 3 High Sentinels of Arashin in this deck recently in place of some of the other fatties (-1 Captain of the Watch, -1 Daru Warchief, -1 Brimaz) and it's been surprisingly powerful.
Sentinels is basically the most efficient 3/4 flier that Soldiers has access to. The difference between 3W and 4W (between this and Gustcloak savior) is just huge in this deck because 3W is very commonly available early on. And even when the Sentinels' abilities cannot be used, it is not a bad creature as simply a 3/4 flier because it is one of the few Soldiers that can block a Delver and live. Flying is huge vs. opposing blockers if you want to kill planeswalkers or hit for that last bit of damage.
And occasionally the ability will be relevant. Sometimes later in the game you don't have anything in hand to play and have some mana open, and essentially this acts as a mana sink that generates (functionally) a 2/2 guy for 3W, at instant speed. Almost like a token generator except it needs other Soldiers in play (which is not a problem usually).
This deck is popping up more and more. Chalice stompy seems strong right now. Grunt is VERY strong, making this and dragon stompy the top stompy decks for my money. I think with both Thalia
and Grunt naturally fitting plus preeminent tricks it is stronger than it was. New soldiers like Aegis popped up last block, and every year a new toy is added. I think the biggest problem the deck has is snobbery and the fact an obvious equivalent is not there in Modern.
Last I played this deck it was to test Kor Hookmaster, who was just up to scratch, getting Goyf out of the way or tapping s and t Emmys or re animated fatties. Not sure how that works in delve-land, but I want to revisit the deck.
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As long as you keep 4 Thalia, Captains and prob Banneret I do not think it matters. I think three Grunts and shave from the others. Four officers is ideal and the next least likely to be shaved. Field m or Supp field could easily be threes. The board is key of course.
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I play 2 Jotun Grunt. You don't want to ever go higher than 2 because they are so high-maintenance and your deck doesn't put alot of cards into the graveyard itself.
Now that Delver is everywhere, I've been testing 3-of / 4-of Delver blockers in Longbow Archer and Kor Skyfisher. I think one of these guys will be a staple of this deck for some time. Fliers are extremely useful in this deck.
The plan should not be blocking delver at all. Kor Sky dudes are ok with cip effects. White has a 2\2 flyer for two that I seem to recall is a soldier. Commander Esha is relevant in the evasion stakes. But they can remove our blocker at will if we only run four. I am not bothered by Grunt being high maintenance. In matches where the bin fills up and they abuse Cruise I want to see it. Some decks main deck Pyroblast as they generate card advantage. We have lots of CA, and Captain cheats to put Grunts in for a certain hit, so the odd time where he is ephemeral is not a big deal. In matches where I have beaten RU it has been by attacking early and/or dropping Thalia to slow them. Grunt dropped early is hard for them too as it is hard to remove and eats their hard work setting up the bin.
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I should add that I am talking Chalice free matches. If that resolves we win if we have any kind of presence. Even post board they need the answer very,very quickly.
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The plan should not be blocking delver at all. Kor Sky dudes are ok with cip effects. White has a 2\2 flyer for two that I seem to recall is a soldier. Commander Esha is relevant in the evasion stakes. But they can remove our blocker at will if we only run four. I am not bothered by Grunt being high maintenance. In matches where the bin fills up and they abuse Cruise I want to see it. Some decks main deck Pyroblast as they generate card advantage. We have lots of CA, and Captain cheats to put Grunts in for a certain hit, so the odd time where he is ephemeral is not a big deal. In matches where I have beaten RU it has been by attacking early and/or dropping Thalia to slow them. Grunt dropped early is hard for them too as it is hard to remove and eats their hard work setting up the bin.
Personally when I play against Delver decks, the following situation comes up alot:
They get Turn 1 Delver that flips either next turn or the following turn. Opponent does enough damage with Delver early on so that even after I've stabilized the board and have more ground forces than the opponent, my life total is very low and I can't afford to take more hits before I can kill him with an alpha strike. I'm at maybe 6 or so life. He can kill me with two Delver attacks or Delver + Bolt. If I can stop Delver from hitting me, I have enough Soldiers attacking him that I will win within the next two turns. I usually lose because Delver flies over and does the remainder of the damage to me.
In these situations (again, which occur alot vs. Delver decks) I need some way to block Delver later in the game so that I don't just die before I can kill him myself. Playing stuff like Longbow Archer in addition to Gustcloak and/or High Sentinels gives you the ability to draw into an "answer" to early Delver once the game progresses.
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Early Chalice @ 1 and early Preeminent Captain are this deck's two most powerful plays. You want to enable these plays as often as possible. Going to 4 Tombs and 2 City of Traitors or even 3 City of Traitors gives you more potential early Chalices and early Preeminent Captains. It also gives you the more consistent ability to hardcast Enlistment Officer and Captain of the Watch. The only downside to City is that it sometimes eats itself if you play it early, and you can't play as many WW Soldiers. I don't play Field Marshal at all, for example, and instead play Veteran Swordsmith.
But really, if you consider the power of Chalice @ 1 and Preeminent Captain, *and* faster Enlistment Officer and Captain of the Watch, I think the downsides of City of Traitors are worth the upside.
@mtg fan- I think it my choice of men - with first striking marshals and generally cheap curve means they would be wrong for me. I could see myself going up to 5, perhaps. I have found marshals to be excellent- the first strike is so good in some matches.
Preeminent Captain, Thalia, and Enlistment Officer all already have first strike. Additionally, I play Porcelain Legionaire, which has first strike. So essentially, Field Marshal is tougher to cast and has one less power than Veteran Swordsmith, at the cost of less toughness in his pump ability.
Legacy is all about tempo and speed. Being able to play something one turn earlier is often the difference between winning and losing in Legacy. City of traitors (and subsequently more colorless casting cost soldiers like Veteran Swordsmith and Porcelain Legionaire) make this deck faster and thus more effective, in my opinion.
I actually think the artifact themed one is better, because Phyrexian Revoker is too good to not play, and the artifact theme gives the deck more incentive to play it. A metalcrafted etched champion is very powerful as well, and there are just more obstacles for the opponents to overcome. Gatekeeper is amazing, especially with Winter Orb.
I'm thinking that the core of the deck could be changed up to support more of an artifact theme, maybe with Aether Vial and more Mox Opals and the other metalcrafted soldiers, but disruption is key in legacy so I just am not sure if fat weenies will do the trick. Is it really bad to play aether Vial in a stompy deck? Could we run a vial list with Chrome Mox? Should it be stompy or non-stompy? I don't think it's such a terrible idea to put aether vial in a stompy deck. the lack of lands allow us to put more creatures in making up for the extra non creature slots for Aether Vial. Could we use Rishadan Port and Wasteland like d&t? They go beautifully with Loxodon Gatekeeper.
2 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Karakas
3 Plains
1 Tundra
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Porcelain Legionnaire
4 Enlistment Officer
4 Etched Champion
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Loxodon Gatekeeper
4 Daru Warchief
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Winter Orb
1 Mox Opal
3 Chrome Mox
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Crib Swap
1 Intrepid Hero
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Disenchant
2 Rest in Peace
1 Lavinia of the Tenth
1 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Plains
1 Tundra
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Ballyrush Banneret
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Enlistment Officer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Daru Warchief
2 Field Marshal
4 Loxodon Gatekeeper
3 Gustcloak Savior
1 Lavinia of the Tenth
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Suppression Field
4 Chrome Mox
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I agree legacy is about tempo and speed- to which I would add- disruption of course. That is why you want the extra sol lands- you look to disrupt early and want pacey starts as often as possible - I have chopped a lot of the top end off to get that extra speed- and included 3 disrupting aegis at the lower end (+3 hookmasters for disruption in critter matches) which also help- so I am on your wavelength, but just a couple of different cards here and there meaning I need other different cards to get slightly different synergies- to achieve similar effect.
Incidentally the aegis has been effective, certainly vs fair decks like red based delver (UR/ or URW) and BUG decks (lilly and discard spells), jund and pox etc.
Dragon stompy of course uses the full sol land set- but they do use 3sphere and chalice main.
I already run d and t, so was keen to develop a deck that uses less of that and can use suppression fields main deck.
Once an opponent develops his manabase past three lands, he can cast any bomb (Liliana, jace, tarmogoyf, stoneforge, etc) without problems, and will gladly pay 2 more mana for a brainstorm if he has enough land in play.
Additionally, Trinisphere completely negates the cost-reduction effects of Ballyrush Banneret and Daru Warchief, which are important in this deck.
Why, oh WHY couldn't they have made this other one a Bird Soldier instead of just a Bird?
Imagine putting this into play off a Preeminent Captain. That would have been sooo sick.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
The most peculiar thing I found is when testing Brimaz a few months ago I found Kor Hookmaster- my original proxy for Brimaz- would have been better in most situations, which is how I ended up running a near conventional list with a couple of out of place odd looking Hookmasters.
For me white soldier stompy needs to interact with the opponent's stuff a little more for when the chalice plan does not come off. Thalia rocks,and it would be nice to have a bit more interaction. Hopeful for Khans.
Looks playable! Definitely worth a test. Could be a late-game mana dump and getting a 3/4 flier for 4 mana in this deck isn't the worst thing earlier on, especially given how much this deck struggles vs. early flipped Delver.
This guy is also playable. Like the one above, kind of a nonbo with Suppression Field, BUT he is essentially a 3/4 flier for 2W + W. And has nice synergy with the Sentinels.
Not bad, Wizards, not bad. At the very least it looks like we will see strong Soldier decks in Standard!
Sentinels is basically the most efficient 3/4 flier that Soldiers has access to. The difference between 3W and 4W (between this and Gustcloak savior) is just huge in this deck because 3W is very commonly available early on. And even when the Sentinels' abilities cannot be used, it is not a bad creature as simply a 3/4 flier because it is one of the few Soldiers that can block a Delver and live. Flying is huge vs. opposing blockers if you want to kill planeswalkers or hit for that last bit of damage.
And occasionally the ability will be relevant. Sometimes later in the game you don't have anything in hand to play and have some mana open, and essentially this acts as a mana sink that generates (functionally) a 2/2 guy for 3W, at instant speed. Almost like a token generator except it needs other Soldiers in play (which is not a problem usually).
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/661941-list-of-stores-that-support-legacy
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28892-Compilation-Of-Legacy-Streams
and Grunt naturally fitting plus preeminent tricks it is stronger than it was. New soldiers like Aegis popped up last block, and every year a new toy is added. I think the biggest problem the deck has is snobbery and the fact an obvious equivalent is not there in Modern.
Last I played this deck it was to test Kor Hookmaster, who was just up to scratch, getting Goyf out of the way or tapping s and t Emmys or re animated fatties. Not sure how that works in delve-land, but I want to revisit the deck.
Now that Delver is everywhere, I've been testing 3-of / 4-of Delver blockers in Longbow Archer and Kor Skyfisher. I think one of these guys will be a staple of this deck for some time. Fliers are extremely useful in this deck.
Personally when I play against Delver decks, the following situation comes up alot:
They get Turn 1 Delver that flips either next turn or the following turn. Opponent does enough damage with Delver early on so that even after I've stabilized the board and have more ground forces than the opponent, my life total is very low and I can't afford to take more hits before I can kill him with an alpha strike. I'm at maybe 6 or so life. He can kill me with two Delver attacks or Delver + Bolt. If I can stop Delver from hitting me, I have enough Soldiers attacking him that I will win within the next two turns. I usually lose because Delver flies over and does the remainder of the damage to me.
In these situations (again, which occur alot vs. Delver decks) I need some way to block Delver later in the game so that I don't just die before I can kill him myself. Playing stuff like Longbow Archer in addition to Gustcloak and/or High Sentinels gives you the ability to draw into an "answer" to early Delver once the game progresses.