This has probably already been discussed, but what is the general opinion on Porcelain Legionnaire ? Do you play him ? On paper it seems like a really nice aggressive beater, then again it's probably kinda weak right now with a lot of burn spells like Forked Bolt around.
I've played Legionnaire for a long time in this deck because it is the cheapest Soldier you can find (i.e. it is essentially a 1-drop when you play him off a Tomb or City).
Of course, I like his efficiency but spending 2 life to cast him, and then often 2 more life from an Ancient Tomb was not always optimal vs. burn-augmented Delver lists.
I think he as a place but I'm not sure if this is the right metagame for him.
T1 Delver is certainly annoying, but i think what OP is referring too is that we probably should not overload on mediocre creatures like Longbow Archer in greater numbers in the main, because they are only good vs delver. If you can't outrace / disrupt delver game 1 you still have sideboard options imo.
cheers
The thing about Archers is that it is not entirely a bad creature even vs. non-Delver decks. A 2/2 first strike for WW is right on the curve of playable for this deck, just like Thalia at 2/1 first strike is not awful even against mostly creature decks.
First strike is often relevant for sure, and it is not a bad critter per se. We may get a lot of first strike anyway, via pre eminent and the 3cc soldier lord and its so perhaps it would be better to get a flyer down like kor aeronaut and give it first strike. I think it is not terribly important what our support critters are though- they all have pros and cons. The main thing is to get the core right. I think Esha may be worth it at 4cc, especially as we use Karakas.
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Maybe this is a dumb question (definitely is), but where does this deck stand in the current Legacy meta? Noticed it put up results on MTGO, and I've been looking for a cheap/competitive entry deck for Legacy. Is this a good fit?
Well a GP type event will have a disproportionately large percentage of blue decks, and maybe 3 or 4 Soldier Stompy entrants, on a good day. This does not make the deck bad per se, but it does mean it is relatively unlikely to ever get representation in a top 16 of a GP.
European 50-150 player events are more diverse, having far more combo and probably it bit less blue, and I feel it is there you may see the odd Soldier Stompy list do well. Places like MTG top 8 don't always cover these events very well. Legacy is a format where, more than Modern even, the non tier one decks can just be nuts, just not as consistent as the tier one decks.
At the moment Chalice stompy lists are good because Delver is everywhere online. Any deck that can power out a t1 chalice and can lay its men uncounterably (eg turn one Thalia) is in a good place. Grunt in particular is just very strong vs Delver, Thalia great full stop, and of course them being Soldiers is perfect for us. White has the best board cards in the format, and since we have seen Dragon stompy pop up in more places this deck has unsurprisingly followed and is getting more coverage. Soldiers has a "kiddy/scrub/casual" tag that is hard to shake off, but if you can see past that the deck is solid and easy to learn and very effective. D and T had years of people looking at it as bad, even when the numbers were great, and mislabelling the deck too. This is no D and T but the deck demands more respect than it has had to date.
About 85% of our list is core- Thalia, sol lands, Grunt at the moment, Caverns, chalice, Karakas, Caverns, Preeminent and some big stuff to cheat in- Enlistment officers, Captain of the watch.
As a Modern deck the thing it lacks is acceleration and the fact that Chalice is not such a strong play in Modern, despite being at its best ever now. Pinning the rest down is hard.
I have leant the deck out to players unfamiliar with it and it has done well in a reasonably developed local meta. I would be happy to take it to larger events.....
Any deck that can power out a t1 chalice and can lay its men uncounterably (eg turn one Thalia) is in a good place. Grunt in particular is just very strong vs Delver, Thalia great full stop, and of course them being Soldiers is perfect for us.
That sounds . . . pretty good. Thalia is one of my all-time favorite creatures, so I'm intrigued.
If only Stoneforge Mystic were a Soldier, but the selection is still impressive.
Soldiers has a "kiddy/scrub/casual" tag that is hard to shake off, but if you can see past that the deck is solid and easy to learn and very effective.
Sounds like this might be a deck for me. I've always been interested in any deck that gives off a G/W Little Kid vibe. They're simpler decks, but they often seem to be more complex than they look.
This deck is solidly positioned in the middle of the pack in the Tier 2 decks. It has some great matchups and some really bad matchups. Like most of the non-blue decks in the format it is highly inconsistent and suffers from high level of variance from game-to-game.
If you want to get into Legacy, I would avoid this type of deck because its high level of variance will frustrate you when you play against blue decks.
Of course, if you simply cannot or do not want to go the Blue route by buying dual lands, you can go forward on the Ancient Tomb/ City of Traitors route, and if you do not have success with this particular deck you can use the lands you buy to build MUD, which is probably a bit stronger than this deck though still suffers from the variance problem.
I would agree it is in the solid tier two bracket.
The big thing is to check the local meta. If there are a lot of routlette decks, such as Belcher, then things can be rough on the draw especially.No force of will= auto loss if they have the nuts.
If the meta is very fair then this deck does well.
Without U or a diving top/sylvan library + shuffle in game variance is going to be relatively greater. That said if you get to know the deck and matches it can be quite rewarding, and if you compromise on sol lands and go just 4 ancient tomb+ chrome mox and avoid the cities and trim the higher stuff you can improve the consistency a little. The more sol lands the higher the chances of mulliganing to nothing, but the greater the reward and chances of the nuts.
The deck is cheap and many of the cards like Karakas and caverns have applications elsewhere, and new soldiers are added all the time.
I would take issue with MUD as being stronger, though. In my experience MUD requires a meta that is both roulette combo free, plus low on control even non blue control. Ask a pox player about MUD and watch them smirk. Still that is neither here nor there...
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I'll most likely have to suffer being a non-blue Legacy player. I'd like to piece together something in the next few months, mainly non-blue staple lands (Karakas/City of Traitors). The raw power of Brainstorm and Ponder is insane, Force of Will single-handedly ruins a lot of decks, but I'm not picking up blue duals anytime soon. And I'm a fan of W(x) decks in general. Maverick has piqued my interest as well.
Building into MUD is a solid idea. Caught a few MUD matches on the GP Jersey stream and it looks solid, and I enjoy quasi-jank artifact decks.
I would take issue with MUD as being stronger, though. In my experience MUD requires a meta that is both roulette combo free, plus low on control even non blue control. Ask a pox player about MUD and watch them smirk. Still that is neither here nor there...
Or maybe not . . .
I'll probably try to make Karakas a priority pick-up. You're definitely right about Soldiers being a well-supported tribe. There's always more to choose from.
Well what's interesting about building this deck is that none of the $20+ cards are really bad purchases because all of them have applications in other archetypes that you might want to try at other times.
The 4 Chrome Mox can help you build Belcher, Oops All Spells, and ANT.
The Ancient Tomb / City of Traitors can help you build MUD.
The Karakas and Thalias can help you build Death N Taxes.
Everything else that is unique to the Soldier deck is basically $5 or less a card, and most are $1 cards.
Is ww an issue at 4? A lot of the time we is an issue at two and three. At four we have it off the four tomb or five sol land base. Eesha is probably better for my money...
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Seconded, I have tried it and it is very decent. If you want to beat Delver it is easy to bend our deck- Thalia is standard as is Cavern, and then enough "optionals" Grunt, Riftwatcher, Eecha and the match swings to us, considering they have to deal with our main stuff too. You can also use anti red tech in the board- Kor Firewalkers- also a soldier-, Sanctimony etc.
If we want a deck that nearly always beats a flipped Delver on the play with a perfect hand, there is not one, it would be a bit silly of us to try and be that deck at the expense of our other matches. Delver will not be on the play 50% of the time, and will not always get a insta flipped Delver, and will not always have the perfect selection of spell it needs. Dropping a Cavern into t1 Thalia/mox or a resolved Chalice T1 if they are not holding Force, and they are in a hard place. Followed by a Sol land and the usual threats it is pretty hard for the Delver deck, they lose in that situation a lot, probably as much as we do off their perfect start. Of course they have a better all round game as they are blue and we have less protection vs combo- but then we cost a fraction of the price and are not tier one. In the right meta we can be pretty devastating.
I beat Death and Taxes 2-0
I beat Sneak and Show 2-0
I lost 2-0 to Pox (my own!)
I lost two really tight ones to infect.
D and T
- I beat it game one by
(a) going first
(b) powering into two chalices on 1 and 2 respectively t1 and t2. I had little hand left but knew he was d n t.
Game two I romped until he cataclysmed to leave him 1 land and a land drop to make it two, and a serra avenger. I had one land, a mox and a weak dude. I recovered via ballyrush into enlistment, and then preeminent. At that point blocks were in. I would have been stuffed had he got a bridge down as I saw none of my board removal spells.
S and T
Horrible for him- I resolved a Thalia via Cavern T2, and got Karakas. Then got a chalice down t3, then suppression fieldT4. He was beaten by me then casting men at will and being very slowed down.
G2 I went into a boarded revoker, but he forced it. I then went into Thalia and Karakas to stop him going off next turn (he would have had just one red source left), and although he did get the sneak eventually I will of the counciled it on the turn I could have cheated in a boarded Gatekeeper or Hookmaster of my choice. He died that turn with my swing.
Infect- I went to five shipping a reasonable 7 vs some decks and a horrible 6. I Had cavern, Thalia, and Eesha. He goes about and does his thing, but the nexus plan is stoped by t3 uncounterable EEsha. He gets the agent of unblockability the next urn, but my hookmaster buys me turns. My swings get him to 3 via preeminent cheats and he is dead unless he is holding exactly vines and invigorate, which he is. Not bad off 5 cards.
G2 I go first to hit moxen/cavern Thalia, and have a choice of a captain or a hookmaster on the inevitable agent a couple of turns later. I chose hookmaster to make sure I do not die if he has a god hand, even though Thalia is once again down and causing problems. If I had chosen captain I could have lost next turn. If I had topdecked a mana source in the next turn I would have been able to lay chalice/field and a ballyrush in the same turn and almost certainly won. I waited 3 turns of no mana only being able to do one thing a turn, as it is revealed he does not have a dream hand but a reasonable one. I have to not attack once with eecha. I do evenmtually cheat in captain and swing him to 3 and lose the next turn. My choice of hookmaster was probably right, but in retro we agreed the preeminent earlier would probably have won it the way it turned out. Without an early necropede he would have died, although with a replacment thalia in hand I was a mana short of letting him kill the Thalia and relaying one uncounterably.
Vs pox I had game 1 in the bag, locking out the board with t1 chalice, suppresion field et al, and die as he gets Nev's disc down and I get 3 blank draws man wise. My post disc turn was sup field no 2 and chalice no 2, all I needed was a man......I conceed when lilly is on the up and NoSB resolves with 2 Mishra's down. Spinning darkness and disc saved him really.
Game 2 he does what a well designed pox deck does- even though chalice resolves early. I do get harshly mana screwed by my draws, but pox decks love that and instantly takem advantage.
So I beat two tier one decks over the past two years and lost to two tier two decks, although I am pretty sure that infect is tier one nowadays.
Thoughts- got to get a gatekeeper in- 4 captain is a bit too much. Perhaps 3/1.
Hookmaster is really good. Single white, and the ability to do shown and tell shenanigans off it and tap an emrakul made me feel safe. It shines vs mid range fair decks with Tammy et al. The trigger with pre eminent is nice- pseudo removal that can only be stifled.
Karkas were great.
Caverns are essential.
Eecha was decent.
I would like to consider soltari champion but I think it won't do enough.
My board had two kor firewalkers in, and I am not sure they are needed. I need to find a bit more permanent control than a single o ring and single will.
I probably need to consider a dismember, maybe even more. Sup field is good, but at no point did I feel it to be more than "adequate". IF I can find more disruption....
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Grunt is fine, and on the day was great. Never bad. When I had him opening hand and did not want to cast him he was discarded to moxen. Remember he can come in as an attacker off preeminent, meaning he is never technically dead. He was great irrespective of the opponents on the day when I saw him.
I do not rate crib swap at all. You would be better off with kor hookmaster- potentially uncounterable, taps even an emrakul (which is only pro colored spells), gets things out of the way, and can be cheated in via preeminent to provide not just another soldier but one less blocker that can't swing back.
The gatekeeper can slow critters down on the enemy side too.
I know we cannot cast swords with chalice... but as I alluded to I have looked at a slightly redesigned list- a tweak or two on what has become a decent list for me.
The options I am looking at are dismember (for d and t style decks or infect, which is big in my mind at the moment for obvious reasons- and holy light (for small man decks like goblins, infect and elves or even mud). This is in addition to council's judgement (and mid speed deck from d and t to usa delver) and o ring (s and t, mud etc)
I have considered runed halo as an overlap card. Stops painter/grindstone and RIP/helm combo by naming the apposite artifacts. But it also helps work as pseudo removal. I have never run leyline in the deck- we have chalice/thalia, and a metric ton of bin hate, and I can also use an aegis for the same leyline effect, albiet killable, plus we can nail critter combos and other targetting cards cards with t1 revoker or totem. Decks that leyline works against are storm, manaless dredge, belcher, painter, pox etc. If you go through most of the list we have a lot of things that can hurt them. Storm and Belcher are not in my meta to a great extent. I can't think of many decks in white where 4 leyline would not be in the 75, and it shows that we have a fair clock and disruption, a bit like d and t.
I think the thing is to get an overlapping board, like d and t does, and I don't see crib swap as having versatility.
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I used to play Kor Hookmaster in this deck but it always seemed to do too little for what it cost. Against decks that don't play creatures (or creatures you care about), he's essentially a vanilla 2/2 for 2W, which is pretty bad. I understand the utility of tapping down Tarmogoyfs and Emrakuls, but I think I'd rather have a better creature overall for that card/mana investment than occasionally tap things down.
And another problem with Hookmaster for me was - early in the game, if he's one of the few Soldiers in your hand, you feel pressured to hold him back to get utility out of his tap trigger. Which means, you have to give up early pressure to hold him back in your hand, because many times he might be the only other Soldier in your hand or the only one. Like say you get a Chalice, Mox, some lands, Preeminent Captain and Hookmaster early. You play Captain and then when you attack your only Soldier is Hookmaster. By flashing him in early, you miss out on using his trigger to tap down a Tarmogoyf later. You can wait, but then you just wasted a combat step in which you could have used Captain's ability. It was a tension that I didn't enjoy at all; I want to go all-in attacking or at least have the ability to do so without forsaking any extra abilities.
Very reasonable points. My meta has a fair few critter decks, which helps, and a decent number of spaghetti monsters and other fatties. As ever we can pitch to mox, which helps.
I normally don't hold him back for value in those situations. We have a high critter density, and captain flashing in good stuff is always a possibility as one officer and we are up and running threatening rude stuff. If nothing else the master can protect a more valuable Thalia v Lilly. I run three of him and now three Captain of the Watch. Eesha performs a similar role. You could use a Whipcorder if you go low on Sup Field. If you are playing in a very man light meta I would not worry about him. But the ability to often uncounterably stop even a Delver for a turn is not insignificant.
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After a lot of cockatrice games and some advice from my friend JPA (he faced PokPok a lot on MODO and feared Soldier Stompy a lot more than Lejays GBw build), i bought the deck for same real card games.
Elves aren't a problem in germany (besides julian23) and with more UR Delver, strong european Miracle Players and generally a rise of removal, i don't think Elves are the best meta choice now (which can be different in usa). So without Elves, Aven Mindcensor (no Soldier, dies easy to forked bolt etc.), Holy Light or the nice Magus of the Moat tech aren't necessary. Wastelands without Mindcensor also seems wrong here.
I feel that the deck struggles vs good midrange decks (and bug..), Stoneforge into Batterskull is hard to beat, if you can't get a timely Suppression Field online. Against Batterskull, TNNs, big Goys etc i included some solutions:
1 Tower of the Magistrate Maindeck as land number 21 (generally more lands, less mulligans, especially without ballyrush).
2 Gustcloak Savior - good body vs any Delver.dec, allow forceful attacks against, bskull, tnn, gofy etc.
2 Kor Hookmaster - worked better as my previous ORings, because Soldier (for officer, warchief, cavern, p.captain), tap down delver, germ, gofy right up to emrakul.
2 Disenchant (mainly for batterskull, but can also hit sneak attack and random stuff/matchups)
-------------
Other slots are here to fight the UR meta:
More Bolt-proof (also massacre, pyroclasm) Beater: Brimaz, Grunt, High Sentinells, Savior.
4 resilient Flyers vs Delver (High Sentinells, Savior) worked better for me compared to the WW-Archers, with 2 more Charioteers at side, Delver attacks can be stopped effective.
I don't liked Holy Light, because it only work (once) against Young Pyromancer & Friends, TNN without Equipment (or Merfolk-Lord) and some Elves or Infect-Creatures. For me 2 Ghostly Prison are the right choice against swarms, only elves can answer it, but in this case, you should smash Magus of the Moat as a near perfect solution (if you also have enough flyers). Ghostly Prison also keeps Swiftspears, Delvers etc in check, because it prevents additional spell chains.
The random Timely Reinforcements worked surprisingly well, most first turn plays are lead with tomb-damage, lock-pieces like chalice, and removal/counter from your opponen. So it isn't uncommon to have less life than an opponnentand face an early threat - so 6 life (also nice to get out of burn range) and 3 soldiers (ready for lord -pump) seems good.
I will continue to play and develope the funny deck 2015
Very interesting points
I like the idea of Tower of the Magistrate, it is certainly something I would like to consider as I use a low land count (see above, although it missed off the plains due to my poor formating). It obviously works vs batterskull, or equipped men bar TNN of course. I can see why you need a high land count as you are not running the cost reducers, and if you are running that amount of land then Tower seems excellent. I may go that way myself.
I don't struggle Vs batterskull much- what tends to happen is there are enough first strikers (I run Field Marshall) to make it impossible for the batterskull wearing man to attack, and then a Hookmaster comes down to make it game two as I build up an army. Commander Eesha also deals with creatures, and is a Legend so it can be hard for them to kill with Karakas, and a Soldier for cheating it in and bonus pumps. I recommend it for creature matches. With hookmasters and Eesha, potentially uncounterable via cavern, the BUG and fair creature matches have been ok for me.
I agree on hookmaster- simply superb in the fair matches, what the deck needs.
I agree on a lot of your sideboard choices and the reasoning.
I will look at adding a Timely.
I would like to know what you think of Charioteers........the lifelink seems tasty.....
My meta has a lot of cheap dredge decks, reanimation and combo decks tend to be not storm- more like painter's servant grindstone. Blue is there, of course, but not 70% of the field or anything.
My board (for a similar list to yours but cheaper with more first stikers)
Oblivion ring
Cursed totem
Dismember
Holy Light
Runed Halo
2 Phyrexian Revoker
Council's Judgement
2 Kor firewalker
1 Aegis of the Gods
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Rest in peace
I am effectively using Council's Judgement plus Runed halo as a cheap flexible way of dealing with TNN that applies to a lot of my meta.
Holy Light is really for infect/elf/Pyromancer players, it is not a great anti TNN card......
Firewalker/Aegis serves as my anti burn, although halo can be used. WW is problematic though for me sometimes.
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Friend of mine has been playing Dawnbringer Charioteers lately and said that they are literally overperforming. They can't get bolted down, they block delver, and the gain him life. He said he couldn't be happier with them. This is from testing, as well as his performance at the recent SCG, where he made money. I don't know his exact record, but he said they were better than gatekeeper used to be for him. More relevant overall.
Friend of mine has been playing Dawnbringer Charioteers lately and said that they are literally overperforming. They can't get bolted down, they block delver, and the gain him life. He said he couldn't be happier with them. This is from testing, as well as his performance at the recent SCG, where he made money. I don't know his exact record, but he said they were better than gatekeeper used to be for him. More relevant overall.
Was he at SCG Philly? I played at that event and did pretty mediocre (mostly due to my misplays) and didn't make day 2. I'd be curious to see the decklist and hear about his experience if he did in fact make Day 2 at that event with Soldiers.
Philly was the open, right? It wasn't philly, it was the event before that. The IQ in Columbus. I don't know his list exactly, but it is pretty stock except for the Dawnbringers. Something like this...
I bought my Charioteers a month ago, had no time to test. Somehow I missed them as being a relevant soldier at the time.
I put one in alongside an Eesha. One thing I have noted is that a little flying makes the deck more resilient to a number of decks in the meta.
I am convinced this deck can go a little further- I would love to see more lists that do well in bigger events.
@ rasta...catapault squad seems a bit weak compared to some of the more common options.
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Chalice of the void on 1 when youre on the play on turn 1, is absolutely amazing against most decks if they dont have a force of will for it, usually seems like a safe bet when you dont know what youre playing against.... The only thing ive had a lot of trouble with is sneak and show.... Miracles seems like a pretty great match and so does any blue heavy decks
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I've played Legionnaire for a long time in this deck because it is the cheapest Soldier you can find (i.e. it is essentially a 1-drop when you play him off a Tomb or City).
Of course, I like his efficiency but spending 2 life to cast him, and then often 2 more life from an Ancient Tomb was not always optimal vs. burn-augmented Delver lists.
I think he as a place but I'm not sure if this is the right metagame for him.
The thing about Archers is that it is not entirely a bad creature even vs. non-Delver decks. A 2/2 first strike for WW is right on the curve of playable for this deck, just like Thalia at 2/1 first strike is not awful even against mostly creature decks.
Because I want to go beyond Modern some day.
European 50-150 player events are more diverse, having far more combo and probably it bit less blue, and I feel it is there you may see the odd Soldier Stompy list do well. Places like MTG top 8 don't always cover these events very well. Legacy is a format where, more than Modern even, the non tier one decks can just be nuts, just not as consistent as the tier one decks.
At the moment Chalice stompy lists are good because Delver is everywhere online. Any deck that can power out a t1 chalice and can lay its men uncounterably (eg turn one Thalia) is in a good place. Grunt in particular is just very strong vs Delver, Thalia great full stop, and of course them being Soldiers is perfect for us. White has the best board cards in the format, and since we have seen Dragon stompy pop up in more places this deck has unsurprisingly followed and is getting more coverage. Soldiers has a "kiddy/scrub/casual" tag that is hard to shake off, but if you can see past that the deck is solid and easy to learn and very effective. D and T had years of people looking at it as bad, even when the numbers were great, and mislabelling the deck too. This is no D and T but the deck demands more respect than it has had to date.
About 85% of our list is core- Thalia, sol lands, Grunt at the moment, Caverns, chalice, Karakas, Caverns, Preeminent and some big stuff to cheat in- Enlistment officers, Captain of the watch.
As a Modern deck the thing it lacks is acceleration and the fact that Chalice is not such a strong play in Modern, despite being at its best ever now. Pinning the rest down is hard.
I have leant the deck out to players unfamiliar with it and it has done well in a reasonably developed local meta. I would be happy to take it to larger events.....
That sounds . . . pretty good. Thalia is one of my all-time favorite creatures, so I'm intrigued.
If only Stoneforge Mystic were a Soldier, but the selection is still impressive.
Sounds like this might be a deck for me. I've always been interested in any deck that gives off a G/W Little Kid vibe. They're simpler decks, but they often seem to be more complex than they look.
Also, what's your current list look like?
If you want to get into Legacy, I would avoid this type of deck because its high level of variance will frustrate you when you play against blue decks.
Of course, if you simply cannot or do not want to go the Blue route by buying dual lands, you can go forward on the Ancient Tomb/ City of Traitors route, and if you do not have success with this particular deck you can use the lands you buy to build MUD, which is probably a bit stronger than this deck though still suffers from the variance problem.
The big thing is to check the local meta. If there are a lot of routlette decks, such as Belcher, then things can be rough on the draw especially.No force of will= auto loss if they have the nuts.
If the meta is very fair then this deck does well.
Without U or a diving top/sylvan library + shuffle in game variance is going to be relatively greater. That said if you get to know the deck and matches it can be quite rewarding, and if you compromise on sol lands and go just 4 ancient tomb+ chrome mox and avoid the cities and trim the higher stuff you can improve the consistency a little. The more sol lands the higher the chances of mulliganing to nothing, but the greater the reward and chances of the nuts.
The deck is cheap and many of the cards like Karakas and caverns have applications elsewhere, and new soldiers are added all the time.
I would take issue with MUD as being stronger, though. In my experience MUD requires a meta that is both roulette combo free, plus low on control even non blue control. Ask a pox player about MUD and watch them smirk. Still that is neither here nor there...
Building into MUD is a solid idea. Caught a few MUD matches on the GP Jersey stream and it looks solid, and I enjoy quasi-jank artifact decks.
Or maybe not . . .
I'll probably try to make Karakas a priority pick-up. You're definitely right about Soldiers being a well-supported tribe. There's always more to choose from.
The 4 Chrome Mox can help you build Belcher, Oops All Spells, and ANT.
The Ancient Tomb / City of Traitors can help you build MUD.
The Karakas and Thalias can help you build Death N Taxes.
Everything else that is unique to the Soldier deck is basically $5 or less a card, and most are $1 cards.
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If we want a deck that nearly always beats a flipped Delver on the play with a perfect hand, there is not one, it would be a bit silly of us to try and be that deck at the expense of our other matches. Delver will not be on the play 50% of the time, and will not always get a insta flipped Delver, and will not always have the perfect selection of spell it needs. Dropping a Cavern into t1 Thalia/mox or a resolved Chalice T1 if they are not holding Force, and they are in a hard place. Followed by a Sol land and the usual threats it is pretty hard for the Delver deck, they lose in that situation a lot, probably as much as we do off their perfect start. Of course they have a better all round game as they are blue and we have less protection vs combo- but then we cost a fraction of the price and are not tier one. In the right meta we can be pretty devastating.
2 Karakas
4 Cavern of souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chalice of the void
3 Suppresion field
4 Enlistment Officer
1 Commander Eesha (was supposed to be two)
3 Kor Hookmaster (spoiler- it was very good)
4 preeminent captain
4 Field Marshall
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Ballyrush banneret
I beat Death and Taxes 2-0
I beat Sneak and Show 2-0
I lost 2-0 to Pox (my own!)
I lost two really tight ones to infect.
D and T
- I beat it game one by
(a) going first
(b) powering into two chalices on 1 and 2 respectively t1 and t2. I had little hand left but knew he was d n t.
Game two I romped until he cataclysmed to leave him 1 land and a land drop to make it two, and a serra avenger. I had one land, a mox and a weak dude. I recovered via ballyrush into enlistment, and then preeminent. At that point blocks were in. I would have been stuffed had he got a bridge down as I saw none of my board removal spells.
S and T
Horrible for him- I resolved a Thalia via Cavern T2, and got Karakas. Then got a chalice down t3, then suppression fieldT4. He was beaten by me then casting men at will and being very slowed down.
G2 I went into a boarded revoker, but he forced it. I then went into Thalia and Karakas to stop him going off next turn (he would have had just one red source left), and although he did get the sneak eventually I will of the counciled it on the turn I could have cheated in a boarded Gatekeeper or Hookmaster of my choice. He died that turn with my swing.
Infect- I went to five shipping a reasonable 7 vs some decks and a horrible 6. I Had cavern, Thalia, and Eesha. He goes about and does his thing, but the nexus plan is stoped by t3 uncounterable EEsha. He gets the agent of unblockability the next urn, but my hookmaster buys me turns. My swings get him to 3 via preeminent cheats and he is dead unless he is holding exactly vines and invigorate, which he is. Not bad off 5 cards.
G2 I go first to hit moxen/cavern Thalia, and have a choice of a captain or a hookmaster on the inevitable agent a couple of turns later. I chose hookmaster to make sure I do not die if he has a god hand, even though Thalia is once again down and causing problems. If I had chosen captain I could have lost next turn. If I had topdecked a mana source in the next turn I would have been able to lay chalice/field and a ballyrush in the same turn and almost certainly won. I waited 3 turns of no mana only being able to do one thing a turn, as it is revealed he does not have a dream hand but a reasonable one. I have to not attack once with eecha. I do evenmtually cheat in captain and swing him to 3 and lose the next turn. My choice of hookmaster was probably right, but in retro we agreed the preeminent earlier would probably have won it the way it turned out. Without an early necropede he would have died, although with a replacment thalia in hand I was a mana short of letting him kill the Thalia and relaying one uncounterably.
Vs pox I had game 1 in the bag, locking out the board with t1 chalice, suppresion field et al, and die as he gets Nev's disc down and I get 3 blank draws man wise. My post disc turn was sup field no 2 and chalice no 2, all I needed was a man......I conceed when lilly is on the up and NoSB resolves with 2 Mishra's down. Spinning darkness and disc saved him really.
Game 2 he does what a well designed pox deck does- even though chalice resolves early. I do get harshly mana screwed by my draws, but pox decks love that and instantly takem advantage.
So I beat two tier one decks over the past two years and lost to two tier two decks, although I am pretty sure that infect is tier one nowadays.
Thoughts- got to get a gatekeeper in- 4 captain is a bit too much. Perhaps 3/1.
Hookmaster is really good. Single white, and the ability to do shown and tell shenanigans off it and tap an emrakul made me feel safe. It shines vs mid range fair decks with Tammy et al. The trigger with pre eminent is nice- pseudo removal that can only be stifled.
Karkas were great.
Caverns are essential.
Eecha was decent.
I would like to consider soltari champion but I think it won't do enough.
My board had two kor firewalkers in, and I am not sure they are needed. I need to find a bit more permanent control than a single o ring and single will.
I probably need to consider a dismember, maybe even more. Sup field is good, but at no point did I feel it to be more than "adequate". IF I can find more disruption....
I do not rate crib swap at all. You would be better off with kor hookmaster- potentially uncounterable, taps even an emrakul (which is only pro colored spells), gets things out of the way, and can be cheated in via preeminent to provide not just another soldier but one less blocker that can't swing back.
The gatekeeper can slow critters down on the enemy side too.
I know we cannot cast swords with chalice... but as I alluded to I have looked at a slightly redesigned list- a tweak or two on what has become a decent list for me.
The options I am looking at are dismember (for d and t style decks or infect, which is big in my mind at the moment for obvious reasons- and holy light (for small man decks like goblins, infect and elves or even mud). This is in addition to council's judgement (and mid speed deck from d and t to usa delver) and o ring (s and t, mud etc)
I have considered runed halo as an overlap card. Stops painter/grindstone and RIP/helm combo by naming the apposite artifacts. But it also helps work as pseudo removal. I have never run leyline in the deck- we have chalice/thalia, and a metric ton of bin hate, and I can also use an aegis for the same leyline effect, albiet killable, plus we can nail critter combos and other targetting cards cards with t1 revoker or totem. Decks that leyline works against are storm, manaless dredge, belcher, painter, pox etc. If you go through most of the list we have a lot of things that can hurt them. Storm and Belcher are not in my meta to a great extent. I can't think of many decks in white where 4 leyline would not be in the 75, and it shows that we have a fair clock and disruption, a bit like d and t.
I think the thing is to get an overlapping board, like d and t does, and I don't see crib swap as having versatility.
And another problem with Hookmaster for me was - early in the game, if he's one of the few Soldiers in your hand, you feel pressured to hold him back to get utility out of his tap trigger. Which means, you have to give up early pressure to hold him back in your hand, because many times he might be the only other Soldier in your hand or the only one. Like say you get a Chalice, Mox, some lands, Preeminent Captain and Hookmaster early. You play Captain and then when you attack your only Soldier is Hookmaster. By flashing him in early, you miss out on using his trigger to tap down a Tarmogoyf later. You can wait, but then you just wasted a combat step in which you could have used Captain's ability. It was a tension that I didn't enjoy at all; I want to go all-in attacking or at least have the ability to do so without forsaking any extra abilities.
I normally don't hold him back for value in those situations. We have a high critter density, and captain flashing in good stuff is always a possibility as one officer and we are up and running threatening rude stuff. If nothing else the master can protect a more valuable Thalia v Lilly. I run three of him and now three Captain of the Watch. Eesha performs a similar role. You could use a Whipcorder if you go low on Sup Field. If you are playing in a very man light meta I would not worry about him. But the ability to often uncounterably stop even a Delver for a turn is not insignificant.
Very interesting points
I like the idea of Tower of the Magistrate, it is certainly something I would like to consider as I use a low land count (see above, although it missed off the plains due to my poor formating). It obviously works vs batterskull, or equipped men bar TNN of course. I can see why you need a high land count as you are not running the cost reducers, and if you are running that amount of land then Tower seems excellent. I may go that way myself.
I don't struggle Vs batterskull much- what tends to happen is there are enough first strikers (I run Field Marshall) to make it impossible for the batterskull wearing man to attack, and then a Hookmaster comes down to make it game two as I build up an army. Commander Eesha also deals with creatures, and is a Legend so it can be hard for them to kill with Karakas, and a Soldier for cheating it in and bonus pumps. I recommend it for creature matches. With hookmasters and Eesha, potentially uncounterable via cavern, the BUG and fair creature matches have been ok for me.
I agree on hookmaster- simply superb in the fair matches, what the deck needs.
I agree on a lot of your sideboard choices and the reasoning.
I will look at adding a Timely.
I would like to know what you think of Charioteers........the lifelink seems tasty.....
My meta has a lot of cheap dredge decks, reanimation and combo decks tend to be not storm- more like painter's servant grindstone. Blue is there, of course, but not 70% of the field or anything.
My board (for a similar list to yours but cheaper with more first stikers)
Oblivion ring
Cursed totem
Dismember
Holy Light
Runed Halo
2 Phyrexian Revoker
Council's Judgement
2 Kor firewalker
1 Aegis of the Gods
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Rest in peace
I am effectively using Council's Judgement plus Runed halo as a cheap flexible way of dealing with TNN that applies to a lot of my meta.
Holy Light is really for infect/elf/Pyromancer players, it is not a great anti TNN card......
Firewalker/Aegis serves as my anti burn, although halo can be used. WW is problematic though for me sometimes.
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Was he at SCG Philly? I played at that event and did pretty mediocre (mostly due to my misplays) and didn't make day 2. I'd be curious to see the decklist and hear about his experience if he did in fact make Day 2 at that event with Soldiers.
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
3 Captain of the Watch
3 Daru Warchief
4 Enlistment Officer
4 Ballyrush Banneret
3 Dawnbringer Charioteers
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Field Marshal
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Suppression Field
Lands-
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
9 Plains
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I put one in alongside an Eesha. One thing I have noted is that a little flying makes the deck more resilient to a number of decks in the meta.
I am convinced this deck can go a little further- I would love to see more lists that do well in bigger events.
@ rasta...catapault squad seems a bit weak compared to some of the more common options.
4 captain of the watch
4 daru warchief
4 enlistment officer
4 field marshal
2 loxodon gatekeeper
4 preeminent captain
4 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 ancient tomb
4 cavern of souls
4 chalice of the void
4 chrome mox
4 suppression field
4 rest in peace
4 swords to plowshares
4 kor firewalker
3 disenchant
Chalice of the void on 1 when youre on the play on turn 1, is absolutely amazing against most decks if they dont have a force of will for it, usually seems like a safe bet when you dont know what youre playing against.... The only thing ive had a lot of trouble with is sneak and show.... Miracles seems like a pretty great match and so does any blue heavy decks