Forgive me but I can't see people knowing about helm rip as a huge issue. I mean knowing about it and stopping it are different things.
Decks with p needle effects game one where they preemptively name Helm are d n t and its Revokers and some Depths lists. Both are pretty easy matches regardless of wincon.
If they name them then your Scroll rack works as they are not naming it, and Cursed Scroll/ Humility/whatever eats through d n ts army.
Depths makes 20s that get removed via Karakas if you run it or plain old spot removal.
One hit forced through won't do it due to Zuran, and getting any hit in is hard with Chant about. Not to mention Blood Moon main. I can see you might want to surprise them with Belcher when they name Helm but you should win those games anyway as soon as the Land Tax engine is online there is inebitability.
For other decks, yes, sometimes they kill RIP in response to Helm, but generally good play beats that, e. g. having two RIPs down, or using Orim's to force them to use their removal midgame on the RIP if you have five mana up. To an extent if they hold a Decay spell you can tax their mana as they can't afford to tap out. Again once you are scrack/taxing you are good to go and if they are killing the combo bits they are not hurting the engine. We are a control deck after all.
The main point about helm/rip is that the cards have value by themselves. Helm by itself is just good against cheat a critter deck, but RIP otoh, is a very good card by itself vs Storm, Fins, all 3 reanimators, both Dredges, and many snapcaster/miracles decks, especially post accumulated knowledge tech, and grixis control with snappy and K command.
In the days of bug/jund tammy it did a job too on tammy and still does over KOTR beats.
I do get Charbelcher though. Good card, wins the game in one. I just want to stick up for RIP helm.
I run Nahiri side. It is pretty flexible and is good when the engine is inhibited.
If you run it main then maybe Emmrakul is worth it? I have never found room and it us not worth it for me.
I used to run unexpectedly absent, good with helm, can protect our stuff. It was good, but at that point I was getting it in by cutting Swords to Plow, which only worked when my meta was very low on dudes. A singleton copy is sometimes worth it.
CJ seems wrong, sure it hits TNN where O ring can't but you have Humility or Halo for that. O ring or Cast out being Tutorable is better, esp if someone Shows them in for you.
Forgive me but I can't see people knowing about helm rip as a huge issue. I mean knowing about it and stopping it are different things.
Decks with p needle effects game one where they preemptively name Helm are d n t and its Revokers and some Depths lists. Both are pretty easy matches regardless of wincon.
If they name them then your Scroll rack works as they are not naming it, and Cursed Scroll/ Humility/whatever eats through d n ts army.
Depths makes 20s that get removed via Karakas if you run it or plain old spot removal.
One hit forced through won't do it due to Zuran, and getting any hit in is hard with Chant about. Not to mention Blood Moon main. I can see you might want to surprise them with Belcher when they name Helm but you should win those games anyway as soon as the Land Tax engine is online there is inebitability.
For other decks, yes, sometimes they kill RIP in response to Helm, but generally good play beats that, e. g. having two RIPs down, or using Orim's to force them to use their removal midgame on the RIP if you have five mana up. To an extent if they hold a Decay spell you can tax their mana as they can't afford to tap out. Again once you are scrack/taxing you are good to go and if they are killing the combo bits they are not hurting the engine. We are a control deck after all.
The main point about helm/rip is that the cards have value by themselves. Helm by itself is just good against cheat a critter deck, but RIP otoh, is a very good card by itself vs Storm, Fins, all 3 reanimators, both Dredges, and many snapcaster/miracles decks, especially post accumulated knowledge tech, and grixis control with snappy and K command.
In the days of bug/jund tammy it did a job too on tammy and still does over KOTR beats.
I do get Charbelcher though. Good card, wins the game in one. I just want to stick up for RIP helm.
I run Nahiri side. It is pretty flexible and is good when the engine is inhibited.
If you run it main then maybe Emmrakul is worth it? I have never found room and it us not worth it for me.
I used to run unexpectedly absent, good with helm, can protect our stuff. It was good, but at that point I was getting it in by cutting Swords to Plow, which only worked when my meta was very low on dudes. A singleton copy is sometimes worth it.
CJ seems wrong, sure it hits TNN where O ring can't but you have Humility or Halo for that. O ring or Cast out being Tutorable is better, esp if someone Shows them in for you.
not saying helm/rip is bad. it's mostly that the decks in my local meta handle stopping the combo pieces from hitting the board pretty well or they have answers. I haven't had it come through for me yet. Come to think of it. I haven't really tried using helm as a way to get one of their dudes as a way to stall or something. I'm gonna try for that next week. I still have a lot to figure out with the deck at least its good fun to play.
so this next week. gonna slam some StPs in the deck and see how that goes, and I'll try to put some work in with the helms.
one possible concern with gearhulk. if we have some of our opponents threats O-ringed. then we risk them getting the threats back once we have to choose our permanents to keep.
Speaking of o ring, I am now running one blinding l, one oring and one cast out. Have been fir a while. Been jamming pox when out if town, Parfait more locally.
You can tell that show n tell is back in the meta.
I finally dropped solemnity unlife combo from the main to make room. It felt great against mono red dragon stompy or burn, and infect did not like solemnity either, but right now mountains seem unpopular.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Hey all, I wanted to say goodbyes here and especially thank Weapon X for the Parfait discussion.
FWIW I am experimenting with a couple of Karns now- meaning a helm can lurk in the board. Impressed so far, gives a bit of utility.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Been looking at some interesting options. I like the idea of getting some of our useful cards back into the deck if they happen to be blown up or discarded.
Wheel of sun and moon.
Mistveil plains.
Hall of heliod's generosity.
Sun/moon just lets us keep the deck full. Though it probably interferes with the belcher plan.
Mistveil lets us grab any card we want and have it put back to the library. Including our board wipes,chant effects.
Heliod might be the best since we are heavy on enchantment.
Wanted to try some fun ideas at the next legacy fnm. If I can get a hold of some of these.
Also going to try a porphory nodes main deck with one of these graveyard to library effects as a repeatable effect.
Also goibg to be trying 2-3 ancient tombs for speed since I can't do cities.
I am a Lands player at heart and have been yearning some variety. Posted on reddit a while ago too to see what happened to this archetype. I have been trying out the deck online for the past two weeks now. Shaving cards off here and there and adding new ones. Some stuck, some didn't. It has been going pretty well now. Card choice may be a bit odd for some of your tastes but here goes.
Honestly this deck can compete with Miracles and UW stoneblade. I have beaten Lands and DnT easily. Same for maverick. difficult match up has been storm. Other than that I feel that this list is quite good. However any input is appreciated. 17 lands seems bare but I can assure you it has been great. My previous list ran a single serra's and mistveil totalling to 18 lands but felt that two non searchables would interfere with the belcher plan. So out they went. I used to run mana tithe instead of orim's chant. Worked well in some scenarios but not consistent and the card is dead mid game against most archetypes. I have found myself looking at land tax very often as a deck thinner to dig into the better pieces of the deck when a lot of counterplay was involved and it works pretty okay. The only downside is that it is slow... Usually you can durdle long enough to kind of actually get started but you really do durdle. Some people suggest throwing in tombs or cities but I feel that again this tries to be more like stax that way (which it isn't) hence I will stay away from those. When wanting to stick an important wincon I found myself orim's chanting my opponent during my upkeep to prevent it from being countered. Side board of grand abolisher is a good t1 play against control decks. All in all. Good fun. Reason why this deck might be slow is because of humility and moat but the two of them have been nothing short of amazing in a lot of match ups.
I haven't had any problems honestly. But it is risky. I only once had a land tax forced which had proven to be problematic. may ditch a mox as well as the plateau for basics. other than that this list was pretty good. I suspect rest in peace will be very important seeing as to how much wrenn is running around. However, with that in mind, abrupt decay will also definitely see an uptick which is painful for us. Hence the karmic justice if we can resolve it. enchantments that protect our other enchantments may become necessary.
Interesting. I had issues with 18 land at times, that’s why I finally upped it.
Rest in peace has always been good. Wrenn has no bearing on that.
Abrupt decay is only a problem when it has limited targets. We have a lot of things that need answers. 4 decays can’t deal with all of them. FWIW decay is why I used to run a single leyline of the void. Karmic justice I found underwhelming especially when I am able to play more threats. Chant also answers a lot of things.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
I firmly believe that we cannot just rely on chant as it currently stands. the card is good and can help you stick game winning pieces but you can't always have one ready. Porphyry nodes has increased in importance I feel as cards like tarmogoyf are seeing an uptick again. Sadly enough, cards like chalice of the void are also seeing more play with mono red decks. Chalice on one is detrimental in the early game.
You really only need to stick the win con which also boils down to helm or belcher as you should be able win on the spot when they resolve. We can already beat creatures with path, wrath, humility, o ring, etc. Nodes/drop of honey rarely felt good enough to me as it tended to not kill what I needed gone.
In most cases our early game is simply survive to the late game. Chalice, like counterbalance, is annoying but it doesn’t beat us. Our curve is varied with answers available at all costs.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
The whole point of chant to me is that it does many things- fogs and interrupts the unfair decks after they waste resources, and forces win cons through.I have also used it in response to Show and Tell- meaning I can force through a key removal spell or just protect my Helm combo they have just enabled. When you do not need it, then it can be shuffled. When it is dropped you get a different deck- more solid answers to fair decks, but you end up pretty cold game 1 to unfair ones.
I try to ensure I always have either Land Tax, Scrack or Tutor in hand- otherwise I tend to mull unless I happen to have good acceleration and a planeswalker- I am now running Karn and Nahiri at 4cc.
I also try and beat Chalice by having solutions- O ring, Cast out and Banishing L main deck, and with Karn I can consider Ratchet bomb in the board too, although it is not needed IMHO.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Finally getting around to an old idea I have had for this. With a local group forming again my only decision right now is to post before or after the pressure tests.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
Finally getting around to an old idea I have had for this. With a local group forming again my only decision right now is to post before or after the pressure tests.
oh please I am sooo eager to know at least
I think one big question now is ”how to protect value engine pieces from Prismatic Ending?”
Still not concerned about this. It’s like being worried about disenchant. It may be present, but in the end there are many threats that usually need to be dealt with. On top of that prismatic ending needs multiple colours to hit our permanents and we already main deck hate against greedy mana. So as a tl;dr with how our game plan works they either deal with the hate and loose to the combo, or ignore the hate to try to stop the combo win and loose anyway.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
After an apparent hiatus, I got to play parfait again with some last second changes; +2 cataclysm +2 abeyance -1 scroll rack -1 day of judgement
considering my rough start I still went 2-1-1 although it felt like 2-2. Left with the confirmation that parfait is probably the best underplayed deck in the format as the format changes but my deck doesn’t need too. I will say I may finally come around to the karn plan, at worse it was a hate piece I wanted. Second note was that the no stick plan felt viable just as the cantrip on abeyance was great (also help in avoiding chalice). Biggest minus was mana flood is brutal just as much as the top end flood was brutal which is also where my karn thoughts are coming from.
Bottom line parfait is best. Play parfait
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
Decks with p needle effects game one where they preemptively name Helm are d n t and its Revokers and some Depths lists. Both are pretty easy matches regardless of wincon.
If they name them then your Scroll rack works as they are not naming it, and Cursed Scroll/ Humility/whatever eats through d n ts army.
Depths makes 20s that get removed via Karakas if you run it or plain old spot removal.
One hit forced through won't do it due to Zuran, and getting any hit in is hard with Chant about. Not to mention Blood Moon main. I can see you might want to surprise them with Belcher when they name Helm but you should win those games anyway as soon as the Land Tax engine is online there is inebitability.
For other decks, yes, sometimes they kill RIP in response to Helm, but generally good play beats that, e. g. having two RIPs down, or using Orim's to force them to use their removal midgame on the RIP if you have five mana up. To an extent if they hold a Decay spell you can tax their mana as they can't afford to tap out. Again once you are scrack/taxing you are good to go and if they are killing the combo bits they are not hurting the engine. We are a control deck after all.
The main point about helm/rip is that the cards have value by themselves. Helm by itself is just good against cheat a critter deck, but RIP otoh, is a very good card by itself vs Storm, Fins, all 3 reanimators, both Dredges, and many snapcaster/miracles decks, especially post accumulated knowledge tech, and grixis control with snappy and K command.
In the days of bug/jund tammy it did a job too on tammy and still does over KOTR beats.
I do get Charbelcher though. Good card, wins the game in one. I just want to stick up for RIP helm.
I run Nahiri side. It is pretty flexible and is good when the engine is inhibited.
If you run it main then maybe Emmrakul is worth it? I have never found room and it us not worth it for me.
I used to run unexpectedly absent, good with helm, can protect our stuff. It was good, but at that point I was getting it in by cutting Swords to Plow, which only worked when my meta was very low on dudes. A singleton copy is sometimes worth it.
CJ seems wrong, sure it hits TNN where O ring can't but you have Humility or Halo for that. O ring or Cast out being Tutorable is better, esp if someone Shows them in for you.
not saying helm/rip is bad. it's mostly that the decks in my local meta handle stopping the combo pieces from hitting the board pretty well or they have answers. I haven't had it come through for me yet. Come to think of it. I haven't really tried using helm as a way to get one of their dudes as a way to stall or something. I'm gonna try for that next week. I still have a lot to figure out with the deck at least its good fun to play.
so this next week. gonna slam some StPs in the deck and see how that goes, and I'll try to put some work in with the helms.
R GOBLINSR
WDeath and taxesW
WRParfaitRW
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I like that idea. since im running nahiri main. that'd be an interesting grab target. still able to be cast unlike emmy if you draw it early.
R GOBLINSR
WDeath and taxesW
WRParfaitRW
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
R GOBLINSR
WDeath and taxesW
WRParfaitRW
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
You can tell that show n tell is back in the meta.
I finally dropped solemnity unlife combo from the main to make room. It felt great against mono red dragon stompy or burn, and infect did not like solemnity either, but right now mountains seem unpopular.
FWIW I am experimenting with a couple of Karns now- meaning a helm can lurk in the board. Impressed so far, gives a bit of utility.
R GOBLINSR
WDeath and taxesW
WRParfaitRW
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Wheel of sun and moon.
Mistveil plains.
Hall of heliod's generosity.
Sun/moon just lets us keep the deck full. Though it probably interferes with the belcher plan.
Mistveil lets us grab any card we want and have it put back to the library. Including our board wipes,chant effects.
Heliod might be the best since we are heavy on enchantment.
Wanted to try some fun ideas at the next legacy fnm. If I can get a hold of some of these.
Also going to try a porphory nodes main deck with one of these graveyard to library effects as a repeatable effect.
Also goibg to be trying 2-3 ancient tombs for speed since I can't do cities.
R GOBLINSR
WDeath and taxesW
WRParfaitRW
I am a Lands player at heart and have been yearning some variety. Posted on reddit a while ago too to see what happened to this archetype. I have been trying out the deck online for the past two weeks now. Shaving cards off here and there and adding new ones. Some stuck, some didn't. It has been going pretty well now. Card choice may be a bit odd for some of your tastes but here goes.
1x Ghostly Prison
2x Humility
1x Karmic Justice
4x Land Tax
1x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Moat
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Rest in Peace
1x Rule of Law
1x Runed Halo
Planeswalker (1)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Instant (13)
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Orim's Chant
2x Path to Exile
3x Swords to Plowshares
1x Goblin Charbelcher
2x Helm of Obedience
4x Mox Diamond
3x Scroll Rack
Land (17)
1x Mountain
7x Plains
1x Plateau
8x Snow-Covered Plains
Sorcery (2)
2x Council's Judgment
1x Abolish
2x Blood Moon
1x Council's Judgment
2x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Grand Abolisher
2x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Pithing Needle
1x Porphyry Nodes
2x Surgical Extraction
Honestly this deck can compete with Miracles and UW stoneblade. I have beaten Lands and DnT easily. Same for maverick. difficult match up has been storm. Other than that I feel that this list is quite good. However any input is appreciated. 17 lands seems bare but I can assure you it has been great. My previous list ran a single serra's and mistveil totalling to 18 lands but felt that two non searchables would interfere with the belcher plan. So out they went. I used to run mana tithe instead of orim's chant. Worked well in some scenarios but not consistent and the card is dead mid game against most archetypes. I have found myself looking at land tax very often as a deck thinner to dig into the better pieces of the deck when a lot of counterplay was involved and it works pretty okay. The only downside is that it is slow... Usually you can durdle long enough to kind of actually get started but you really do durdle. Some people suggest throwing in tombs or cities but I feel that again this tries to be more like stax that way (which it isn't) hence I will stay away from those. When wanting to stick an important wincon I found myself orim's chanting my opponent during my upkeep to prevent it from being countered. Side board of grand abolisher is a good t1 play against control decks. All in all. Good fun. Reason why this deck might be slow is because of humility and moat but the two of them have been nothing short of amazing in a lot of match ups.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Rest in peace has always been good. Wrenn has no bearing on that.
Abrupt decay is only a problem when it has limited targets. We have a lot of things that need answers. 4 decays can’t deal with all of them. FWIW decay is why I used to run a single leyline of the void. Karmic justice I found underwhelming especially when I am able to play more threats. Chant also answers a lot of things.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
In most cases our early game is simply survive to the late game. Chalice, like counterbalance, is annoying but it doesn’t beat us. Our curve is varied with answers available at all costs.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I try to ensure I always have either Land Tax, Scrack or Tutor in hand- otherwise I tend to mull unless I happen to have good acceleration and a planeswalker- I am now running Karn and Nahiri at 4cc.
I also try and beat Chalice by having solutions- O ring, Cast out and Banishing L main deck, and with Karn I can consider Ratchet bomb in the board too, although it is not needed IMHO.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
oh please I am sooo eager to know at least
I think one big question now is ”how to protect value engine pieces from Prismatic Ending?”
Modern
WUBRG
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
considering my rough start I still went 2-1-1 although it felt like 2-2. Left with the confirmation that parfait is probably the best underplayed deck in the format as the format changes but my deck doesn’t need too. I will say I may finally come around to the karn plan, at worse it was a hate piece I wanted. Second note was that the no stick plan felt viable just as the cantrip on abeyance was great (also help in avoiding chalice). Biggest minus was mana flood is brutal just as much as the top end flood was brutal which is also where my karn thoughts are coming from.
Bottom line parfait is best. Play parfait
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord