I don't see any reason to rethink the wincon right now. Rest in Peace in the main is hot and the deck has plenty of mana to support Helm. You just need a powerful secondary and you are in good shape. I see that as the realm of the splash. I have been looking at the red miracles available to help. But none of them looks like a bonafide wincon, though Seismic Assault is good. Assault is only good if you have a good setup though. I'm looking for something like Jace that can dig you out.
Unsure of ivory tower, but it feels right. Would have a single mountain in SB for firespout and most likely REB, perhaps even firestorm. In any case, how is it looking?
I don't see any reason to rethink the wincon right now. Rest in Peace in the main is hot and the deck has plenty of mana to support Helm. You just need a powerful secondary and you are in good shape. I see that as the realm of the splash. I have been looking at the red miracles available to help. But none of them looks like a bonafide wincon, though Seismic Assault is good. Assault is only good if you have a good setup though. I'm looking for something like Jace that can dig you out.
I agree with RIP/Helm. I have pulled of turn three wins against matchups that I didn't have business of winning (with the help of Moxes/Sol lands).
The thing is when you play that first turn Land Tax, your opponent will not play around it. They will either deal with it or with Scroll Rack. For me, I find that it helps create a diversion to set up a quick RIP/Helm win.
Charbelcher depends on Land Tax to be efficient. If your opponent deals with Land Tax, they've already dealt with your Charbelcher. It's only good synergy is with Scroll Rack as it refreshes the chaff you return on top of your library. Even with that, without Land Tax, it will get you nowhere. For seven mana, you should be winning instead of durdling your hand around hoping to find an answer.
As for the red splash, I think what red can offer best are Red Blasts and Burning Wish. Burning Wish gives you access to things like Cataclysm, Armageddon and Wrath of God.
-Cataclysm is great in turning on Tax/Rack although it's horrible in the main as a lot of your control elements are permanent-based. When you're behind late game and can't get Tax/Rack active because you've committed yourself in playing your lands, Cataclysm will get you there. It levels the field for you. The deck normally has great controlling permanents that aren't creatures. It also deals with Planeswalkers.
The thing about Cataclysm is you will not always have that board state and it's actually a mediocre card outside of that situation.
-Against control mirrors, Armageddon is just great but a lot of decks can play around it. The decks that are good against Armageddon are the ones that go on forever. It's normally the games that you are casting spells on the 15th turn. Wishing for an Armageddon in the late game to set up your win condition with minimal hindrance? Why not?
-Terminus is great in the early game. Late game, having a Wrath of God isn't bad. Having 6-7 Wrath effects with those being flexible for the late game isn't bad at all.
I am sure there are more sweet targets for Burning Wish for the deck. Hell, with the red splash, even Blood Moon can be viable on the main.
Unsure of ivory tower, but it feels right. Would have a single mountain in SB for firespout and most likely REB, perhaps even firestorm. In any case, how is it looking?
I am telling you now, as tempting as Path to Exile is, it's gonna be more of a liability than a Land Tax enabler. Your opponent gaining life shouldn't be a problem if your primary win condition doesn't involve life loss. Swords to Plowshares is the way to go.
I guess I'll call path a meta choice. Turn one tax followed by path... My experience has either been no basic from greedy mana base or straight refusal to get the land.
Solitary does so much in every deck I've played it in. I normally play it in multiples as it does play out as a white time walk. Most notably, like I believe I have mentioned, some decks just can't beat it. It gives time to set up/recover when required.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
I guess the only thing I feel is truley important is that we are a late game deck much the same way Quinn is. The longer we can make the game go, the more our card advantage will dominate and we will win. In that same vein sometimes you just draw a turn 4 combo hand.
All this in mind your ability to recognize what deck your are up against has to factor into your game. As an example: they are playing combo, my chants stop the combo vs they are control, my chants can force spells through vs they are aggro dude my chant is a fog. This is also why I like solitary confinement as it can fill almost all if those roles as well.
Another point I suppose, if they are trying to win with creatures, we should be in an auto win situation. Control I feel we should also be able to beat as we can play chants/silence and whatever tools a splash may give. So combo is the issue mostly because of speed as chant/silence work here too.
Pithing needle should be in the 75. We don't deal with planeswalkers to well.
I like red as a splash, but think blue could be stronger as that was a deck I played a long time ago... An I just really want meddling mage in a deck again. I'm debating about nevermore as it is.
Because of how my builds have been looking I've thought about ethersworn cannonist but do feel trinisphere is the ideal way to go and for reasons I think you have also mentioned.
Well there's a bunch of thoughts. I guess gleam from that what you can find useful.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
Well I think I shall be committing to parfait this tourney coming up. Think I may even stick it out as is (see earlier post). Unsure of sideboard though as I expect this to be our more "casual" tournament. Ideally this could be a good time for me to try "new ideas" in a "competetive" environment.
Suggestions for board, maybe even main?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
Like I was suggesting, I'm willing to experiment for this tournament. I'm still tempted for at least an elspeth and I will probably up needles minimally.
To go back to path; it could easily be plow, but I'm also expecting getting a land to be more beneficial for me and them not getting a land beneficial to me. Either way I'm going to use it. I think the pros outweighs the cons.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
I would run 2-3 needles I think. Maybe a COP:R? I like it more than Warmth as its harder to play around via creatures and can be used vs non-burn decks.
I was considering cop:r, but the only thing I should care about from mono red would be bolts, chain lightning, fireblast, etc. Dealing with dudes should never be a problem, fighting efficient burn is. Heck I almost went with my old standby aegis of honor, but it's a niche card
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
Leyline of Sanctity - not only covers your burn problem, it can also be a countermeasure against any combo that targets you as a player. Don't be fooled though, as it will not make you invincible but will protect you long enough to set up for a better protection or win condition.
I agree with pithing needles 100% if possible I want to find a way to main deck them. Maybe over 3sphere.
I'm still undecided about leyline as I had thought about main decking one which I believe is why I settled on the lone solitary confinement. But that does remind me of runed halo which is a strong enough card to main deck as a singleton. I guess that comes down to do I expect combo.
I am beginning to think an abolish in the board may also be good.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
I have run singleton leyline before, but I think it comes down to preference. If the reason I'm running it is to beat combo then I'd rather it be a 4 of and try to maximize it starting in play. That's usually why I lean on runed halo normally as it fits better in lower numbers. Also I usually play multiple solitary confinements which I find are stronger then leyline, the downside being you have to cast them.
The other way I would look at it as what do I expect too see. I'm not expecting combo at this tournament which is also why I want to try to experiment with some cards. It's about the best environment I could ask for as testing in concerned.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
Round 1 v 12post
I'm calling it 12 post as that's what it seemed to look like. Bottom line though, I beat creature decks. Dropped an early tower game 1 while humility and blood moon do their thing. Helm combo at 50+ life.
Game 2 got me thinking no pressure and just helm combo turn 5
Round 2 v Joel and Taxes
Ride the tower to 40+ life while humility locks the deck down. Path shines as it keeps me taxing and helps him play around 3sphere.
Game 2 was grindy. Tax/orb/rack help me stabilize to where I win at 1 life.
Round 3 v aggro elves
Game 1 not much happened. Thought he was playing combo elves and eventually exiting hit. Humility and paths yet again seemed to help, but it looked like he was just trying to attack and I was just trying to combo which I did.
Game 2 was just domination by me. Particulars not to exciting aside from I dragged it out to win with belcher for 22 with him at 20 to quiet those saying I never win with damage.
Round 4 v burn (which I kept think was u/r delver)
Game 1 all the taxing, all the lands out of deck, drawing all the paths against no creatures. Needless to say lost the game.
Game 2, jokes on him I said warmth and meant it. Between ivory tower and warmth victory was assured.
Game 3 solitary confinement and tax with a rack and orb. Drag out until I helm combo.
-Top 4-
Round 5 v BUG control
Game 1 helm in play, I'm at 2... Try to win or buy a turn? If he can't counter I win... He counters rip, I scoop.
Game 2 a lot of my win cons get exiled. I got excited and misplayed my blood moon by not chanting first. Paths from game 1 revealed no basics... Did not forget to chant before elspeth which made him scoop.
Game 3 who says you need rip? I helm him for a delver that I flip and start counter swinging. Later I helm him again EOT for a goyf and counter swing for lethal.
-Final-
Joel and Taxes, we meet again. Game 1 was helm win as expected from the earlier game. Game 2 was just all the hate for taxes. Humility, 3spehere, blood moon... If it was even mild hate it seemed to be in play.
Props:
Path, to the naysayers, felt MVP. It did as expected. People see tax and don't want land or they just have none to get. The few who did get basics felt like they were letting me win easier as zuran orb tricks are not required.
Solitary confinement. I'll say it, 1 is the number. Bug let me tax with orb, solitary, tax and won and recovered from no hand.
Blood moon and 3sphere worth the main deck slots. Worst case seem to force people to play lands which I wanted most of the time.
Chants!!!! Not much else to say there.
And finally the big one... I could win without taxing. The dream exists.
Slops:
My getting excited caused some misplays that should not have happened. The forgetting to chant and the in the groove "tax without tax play".
This deck exists now. Grab plateaus now.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
Been thinking about it since after the tournament; while I was happy with my side board I do think it can be improved. I do think at the very least firespout could be a 2 of. I also really wanted to find space for ethersworn cannonists. I liken them to the same idea as bobs in lands. Gives a faster clock and doesn't hurt so much with all the artifacts (if only they drew cards too)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
A hate-bear based sideboard seems plausible. I have been contemplating in utilizing one since most of my opponents will side out creature hate for artifact/enchantment hate.
Was your 60 good. Would you have changed anything?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
The only change I could think of may be to cut one scroll rack for that pithing needle main that I wanted... But I never had to side in pithing needle. I seemed to have dodged planeswalkers somehow. I suppose I would also like a second blood moon. Having one main made some games so much easier... Especially with 3sphere.
Other then that I loved my 60. Almost in love with the 75. The deck performed like I hoped it would. There were times I couldn't land tax and still felt my deck was powerful. That goes a long way when you base the deck around tax.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
Trying cutting a plains for a main decked needle which also opens up space for pyroblast number 4. (I will eventually make this 2 REB 2 pyro). As much as I want to cut the scroll rack, it's a work horse in the deck. I don't like tutoring for it if I don't have to. 3 continues to be the sweet spot.
4 tax
3 scroll rack
1 zuran orb
I feel that is for sure set in stone now.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
As I think I shall give this deck another run at the end if the week for another tournament I have also decided I'd rather have 3sphere in the board on account of all the early drops. So I'm back to trying that singleton scepter again and as opportunity is knocking, I have swapped out a mox diamond for the mox opal I want to try.
So unless I end up running ANT this time around, hopefully I will have more info to dish.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
3 scroll rack
3 wrath of god
4 orim's chant
3 oblivion ring
4 path to exile
4 enlightened tutor
1 solitary confinement
1 ghostly prison
1 zuran orb
1 humility
1 blood moon
1 trinisphere
1 ivory tower
4 mox diamond
2 helm of obedience
1 goblin chat belcher
3 plateau
16 plains
Unsure of ivory tower, but it feels right. Would have a single mountain in SB for firespout and most likely REB, perhaps even firestorm. In any case, how is it looking?
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I agree with RIP/Helm. I have pulled of turn three wins against matchups that I didn't have business of winning (with the help of Moxes/Sol lands).
The thing is when you play that first turn Land Tax, your opponent will not play around it. They will either deal with it or with Scroll Rack. For me, I find that it helps create a diversion to set up a quick RIP/Helm win.
Charbelcher depends on Land Tax to be efficient. If your opponent deals with Land Tax, they've already dealt with your Charbelcher. It's only good synergy is with Scroll Rack as it refreshes the chaff you return on top of your library. Even with that, without Land Tax, it will get you nowhere. For seven mana, you should be winning instead of durdling your hand around hoping to find an answer.
As for the red splash, I think what red can offer best are Red Blasts and Burning Wish. Burning Wish gives you access to things like Cataclysm, Armageddon and Wrath of God.
-Cataclysm is great in turning on Tax/Rack although it's horrible in the main as a lot of your control elements are permanent-based. When you're behind late game and can't get Tax/Rack active because you've committed yourself in playing your lands, Cataclysm will get you there. It levels the field for you. The deck normally has great controlling permanents that aren't creatures. It also deals with Planeswalkers.
The thing about Cataclysm is you will not always have that board state and it's actually a mediocre card outside of that situation.
-Against control mirrors, Armageddon is just great but a lot of decks can play around it. The decks that are good against Armageddon are the ones that go on forever. It's normally the games that you are casting spells on the 15th turn. Wishing for an Armageddon in the late game to set up your win condition with minimal hindrance? Why not?
-Terminus is great in the early game. Late game, having a Wrath of God isn't bad. Having 6-7 Wrath effects with those being flexible for the late game isn't bad at all.
I am sure there are more sweet targets for Burning Wish for the deck. Hell, with the red splash, even Blood Moon can be viable on the main.
I am telling you now, as tempting as Path to Exile is, it's gonna be more of a liability than a Land Tax enabler. Your opponent gaining life shouldn't be a problem if your primary win condition doesn't involve life loss. Swords to Plowshares is the way to go.
Also, why stick with Solitary Confinement?
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
Solitary does so much in every deck I've played it in. I normally play it in multiples as it does play out as a white time walk. Most notably, like I believe I have mentioned, some decks just can't beat it. It gives time to set up/recover when required.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
All this in mind your ability to recognize what deck your are up against has to factor into your game. As an example: they are playing combo, my chants stop the combo vs they are control, my chants can force spells through vs they are aggro dude my chant is a fog. This is also why I like solitary confinement as it can fill almost all if those roles as well.
Another point I suppose, if they are trying to win with creatures, we should be in an auto win situation. Control I feel we should also be able to beat as we can play chants/silence and whatever tools a splash may give. So combo is the issue mostly because of speed as chant/silence work here too.
Pithing needle should be in the 75. We don't deal with planeswalkers to well.
I like red as a splash, but think blue could be stronger as that was a deck I played a long time ago... An I just really want meddling mage in a deck again. I'm debating about nevermore as it is.
Because of how my builds have been looking I've thought about ethersworn cannonist but do feel trinisphere is the ideal way to go and for reasons I think you have also mentioned.
Well there's a bunch of thoughts. I guess gleam from that what you can find useful.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Suggestions for board, maybe even main?
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
How does your sideboard look like right now?
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
3 pyroblast
3 firespout
2 aura of silence
1 warmth
1 pithing needle
1 humility
3 ????
Like I was suggesting, I'm willing to experiment for this tournament. I'm still tempted for at least an elspeth and I will probably up needles minimally.
To go back to path; it could easily be plow, but I'm also expecting getting a land to be more beneficial for me and them not getting a land beneficial to me. Either way I'm going to use it. I think the pros outweighs the cons.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Leyline of Sanctity - not only covers your burn problem, it can also be a countermeasure against any combo that targets you as a player. Don't be fooled though, as it will not make you invincible but will protect you long enough to set up for a better protection or win condition.
Pithing Needle - this deck hates seeing Jace, the Mindsculptor and Sensei's Divining Top. If Needle comes at the right time, it's great in stopping them.
Hopefully that helps.
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
I'm still undecided about leyline as I had thought about main decking one which I believe is why I settled on the lone solitary confinement. But that does remind me of runed halo which is a strong enough card to main deck as a singleton. I guess that comes down to do I expect combo.
I am beginning to think an abolish in the board may also be good.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
The other way I would look at it as what do I expect too see. I'm not expecting combo at this tournament which is also why I want to try to experiment with some cards. It's about the best environment I could ask for as testing in concerned.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
Round 1 v 12post
I'm calling it 12 post as that's what it seemed to look like. Bottom line though, I beat creature decks. Dropped an early tower game 1 while humility and blood moon do their thing. Helm combo at 50+ life.
Game 2 got me thinking no pressure and just helm combo turn 5
Round 2 v Joel and Taxes
Ride the tower to 40+ life while humility locks the deck down. Path shines as it keeps me taxing and helps him play around 3sphere.
Game 2 was grindy. Tax/orb/rack help me stabilize to where I win at 1 life.
Round 3 v aggro elves
Game 1 not much happened. Thought he was playing combo elves and eventually exiting hit. Humility and paths yet again seemed to help, but it looked like he was just trying to attack and I was just trying to combo which I did.
Game 2 was just domination by me. Particulars not to exciting aside from I dragged it out to win with belcher for 22 with him at 20 to quiet those saying I never win with damage.
Round 4 v burn (which I kept think was u/r delver)
Game 1 all the taxing, all the lands out of deck, drawing all the paths against no creatures. Needless to say lost the game.
Game 2, jokes on him I said warmth and meant it. Between ivory tower and warmth victory was assured.
Game 3 solitary confinement and tax with a rack and orb. Drag out until I helm combo.
-Top 4-
Round 5 v BUG control
Game 1 helm in play, I'm at 2... Try to win or buy a turn? If he can't counter I win... He counters rip, I scoop.
Game 2 a lot of my win cons get exiled. I got excited and misplayed my blood moon by not chanting first. Paths from game 1 revealed no basics... Did not forget to chant before elspeth which made him scoop.
Game 3 who says you need rip? I helm him for a delver that I flip and start counter swinging. Later I helm him again EOT for a goyf and counter swing for lethal.
-Final-
Joel and Taxes, we meet again. Game 1 was helm win as expected from the earlier game. Game 2 was just all the hate for taxes. Humility, 3spehere, blood moon... If it was even mild hate it seemed to be in play.
Props:
Path, to the naysayers, felt MVP. It did as expected. People see tax and don't want land or they just have none to get. The few who did get basics felt like they were letting me win easier as zuran orb tricks are not required.
Solitary confinement. I'll say it, 1 is the number. Bug let me tax with orb, solitary, tax and won and recovered from no hand.
Blood moon and 3sphere worth the main deck slots. Worst case seem to force people to play lands which I wanted most of the time.
Chants!!!! Not much else to say there.
And finally the big one... I could win without taxing. The dream exists.
Slops:
My getting excited caused some misplays that should not have happened. The forgetting to chant and the in the groove "tax without tax play".
This deck exists now. Grab plateaus now.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Was your 60 good. Would you have changed anything?
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
Other then that I loved my 60. Almost in love with the 75. The deck performed like I hoped it would. There were times I couldn't land tax and still felt my deck was powerful. That goes a long way when you base the deck around tax.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
4 tax
3 scroll rack
1 zuran orb
I feel that is for sure set in stone now.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
So unless I end up running ANT this time around, hopefully I will have more info to dish.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord