My friend piloted this deck again last night to a mediocre 3-2. He went solid white, copying much from (nameless one)'s deck with the Helm primary wincon. It's a good wincon for this deck. We decided to pull out the Ghostly Prisons entirely from the sideboard, relying on Terminus and Humility to do the ant-aggro. He faced Goblins and won every game, so I am not sure how important the Prisons are.
Is it the South Florida Magic Tuesday Legacy? If it is, did he get featured?
In opposition to the way this deck had always played in the past, I no longer think there is much of any reason to stay in one color. Three might even be reasonable. We might be able to make it work with all five. This means some serious thought about the mana base though.
3 Lotus Vale
3 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Mox Diamond
...for starters. I'm not sure yet. I want to explore what it means to include extra colors and what they can offer. If we really could have all colors in here with no mana problems, which cards would you like to have access to?
I agree with this. Hell a 5 color control deck would be awesome.
As for options and how the deck goes, I think blue might help. As much as I dislike piloting a blue deck, it does help by having control of the stack. Energy Field also helps it. Although I feel that Energy Field isn't needed since the deck has a great aggro matchup anyways.
As you said before, Red has a lot to offer. From Devastating Dreams to Seismic Assault.
As for Loam, with Rest in Peace in the deck, it will not be quite effective. Also, in a deck that has tutor targets (meaning minimal numbers) and has no way to recur them, dredged non-land cards can be a problem.
EDIT: I think my real motivation might be to point out how ignorant the tools on SCG Opens are who seem to think Plains are weak.
I do agree with the mana hungry statement as I too cut scepters. But I do liken parfait to Quinn in that I feel we need to survive to turn 4 where our deck is truly online. Chants and silence buy us that time and protect our combo.
While I like defense grid, I don't think it does enough for our deck.
You can try Chants. I used to ran them too but ultimately cut them for Pithing Needles since combo isn't much relevant in the current meta.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Unfortunately a lot of us change decks weekly so we don't have a concrete meta right now like we used to. It's in part what probably shapes my opinion of cards. So I need to build something that doesn't roll over game 1 to combo or control.
Maybe a better route for me to go is simply ask what you were playing against with the deck. What problems did you feel you had.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
Unfortunately a lot of us change decks weekly so we don't have a concrete meta right now like we used to. It's in part what probably shapes my opinion of cards. So I need to build something that doesn't roll over game 1 to combo or control.
Maybe a better route for me to go is simply ask what you were playing against with the deck. What problems did you feel you had.
The last time I played my list and actually did good was the 2nd MTGS tourney.
The last time I played it within the local meta was about two months ago. I faced mostly aggro/combo (Elves and Dredge being the combo).
I heavily tested against Goblins, Dredge and Canadian before my finalized list, which is why my mainboard is tailored to prey on these decks. I just haven't had time to test recently, which is why I haven't made any updates.
The biggest problems I've had are Blue-based control, which is why I have Pithing Needles on the main, which are preemptive answers to both Jace and Sensei's Divining Top.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
When will the card ever deal more than 6 or so damage though? Two for your lands and four for the opponent seems the maximum possible. Paying 3 and dealing 6 seems kind of lame, especially when some decks (RUG, Affinity to name two) would likely pay for you lands and not for thier own, which puts you in a really awkward situation.
When will the card ever deal more than 6 or so damage though? Two for your lands and four for the opponent seems the maximum possible. Paying 3 and dealing 6 seems kind of lame, especially when some decks (RUG, Affinity to name two) would likely pay for you lands and not for thier own, which puts you in a really awkward situation.
The blue based deck is why I want to lean towards chants. But it is also why I am thinking of main decking 3sphere
I used to play Trinisphere on the main too. To help against decks that have lower converted mana curve. I have designated it to the side for certain matchups.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
I think I am leaning towards a slight silver bullet strategy, kind of like I do with enchantress. I think if I can add, let's say 3 cards main, that are bullets that should not affect the deck all that much and hopefully give some better game one results against some decks that aren't creature based.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
I think I am leaning towards a slight silver bullet strategy, kind of like I do with enchantress. I think if I can add, let's say 3 cards main, that are bullets that should not affect the deck all that much and hopefully give some better game one results against some decks that aren't creature based.
Splash red and run Form of the Dragon maybe? Kinda wrecks non-creature stratagies except Burn.
What decks are you thinking about though? Most decks nowadays have creature win cons.
Well, like Quinn, parfait just beats creature decks. So I'm not too worried about them especially since humility already slows most decks down and vanilla dudes don't affect us. So I want to lean towards the old vintage lists but, like nameless one has also done, give myself access to lotus vale etc to keep the engine there.
The problems I keep seeing in my builds so far are that we play very few "threats" and they are slow. By stopping only helm, I feel I can't win.
From playing Quinn I know I can beat some decks simply from chanting at the appropriate time.
To get back on track now, I think a 3sphere main is a good choice. We want the slow game, this alone seems to beat a lot if decks.
I also mentioned it to nameless, maybe a scepter or two main. Chant lock again can slow the game down enough and be a threat that we may be able to easily beat combo and again slow decks down enough to get to turn 4 where it feels like we start to kick in. Conveniently we also have multiple targets for scepter as well.
Story circle I think would be my other consideration.
I am also starting to lean away from rip/helm. While I like it, I'm starting to think I would rather have it in board as another win con and give myself access to argivian find, planar birth, replenish, etc main. I have been finding deck very threat light and that spending multiple turns durdling around without threatening anything is bad.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
It was the Tuesday event for SouthFloridaMagic. But he was not featured.
I have to wonder if Energy Field is any better than Humility. The litmus test to tell the difference would certainly be Burn. Well, he beat Burn with a good build/Pilot. I do not know that Energy Field is worth the trouble. In testing I always seem to be fetching Humility instead. Blue seems not to be worth it then.
I will try out other colors. But testing is useless without the right cards. Ideas?
Burning Wish also gives you sideboard options depending on your meta.
It also gives you game against blue-based control with Red Blasts.
As for other threats in mono-white, has anyone tried Stoneforge Mystic postboard? Maybe against combo or control. Most decks remove their creature removal when they found out you're playing a creature-less Humility deck.
I also want to splash, but I think trying to nail down a mono white list is more important. Holes can be filled in later with other colours once they are found.
I've been testing with something similar to your 2nd place deck, with the main difference being orim's chants in my build. That's why I have been considering a revamp to a more vintage looking list. I feel like there isn't enough going on to the point where I can lock the board down but a well timed disenchant seems to have me falling apart (not that this is actually the case). It seems like if I can't tax the deck falls apart. So my new goal is, like I said, to aim for the vintage cues. Getting the engine going I feel I can't lose, but I want to try to get that even without the engine.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
I do feel I would gladly main a tormods crypt over the find. I feel a little more neutral on aura as I know it would be in the 75. I am liking how it gold fishes, but I do need to do some actual testing.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
I'm not sure if you'll like Solitary Confinement but based on my testing, it's more of a liability than a helper. It's only good when you have the engine going. The problem with that is once you already have the engine going, there is no way aggro can get back in the game against you.
Sure you can hold off aggro when you have an active Land Tax (+Crucible of Worlds) but you are missing your draw phase. This means that once you can't search for any more lands, it becomes a liability again.
Also if you're going to have Zuran Orb, I wouldn't use Lotus Vale.
I would suggest Tangle Wire on your build and max out on your Mox Diamond. Maybe a couple more Chrome Mox to help you get mana without having to make your land drop.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Did some testing against reanimator. As expected Iona bad. I did pop in a trading post over argivian find. Liking that better.
@nameless: I should preface this with "I love solitary confinement." But to go a little further into it, there is a reason to run multiples. It's not do much. Matter of keeping it around, it's more that it is a white time walk in the way chant can be. Simply put, it buys time. That's good enough. Naturally it's even better to keep it going, but that isn't always necessary.
I think I'm missing something with the missing the draw phase comment. Tax/rack is a draw engine. 3 cards instead of 4 is a fair trade off.
Zuran orb I find more of a safety net of sorts. It helps to turn tax on much like vale, but with a benefit. Again, getting to the later turns is my main reasoning for this. My experience with similar decks says we need to get to turn 4, this is a way to help get there.
I gave up on mox diamonds for the most part. I found they were affecting decisions with a rack, effectively costing me cards. That's why I settled on 1. It's clearly good, but multiples felt unnecessary. The mox opal was an interesting choice for me, and I can't really even understand how I got there, but once I remembered trading post it's value got added.
Tangle wire I hadn't thought about. That does intrigue me. I'm just not sure if I can take advantage of it though. Chrome mox I don't like for the exiling of cards. With the low multiples of cards I play I'm not sure, I did consider it also as a 1 of. More food for thought in testing I suppose.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
(Nameless one) you may have one me over with the chrome mox. I am trying one right now over a scroll rack. I have been finding it good as multiples of some cards become dead and this gives them yet another use.
It is an odd mix of moxes for sure. I'll be the first to admit it. But I am liking the results so far.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
I am liking the single chrome so far, especially as it is one more card for trading post. I am also shifting the mana around right now to. I like lotus vale, but they are generally an awful draw. I am considering going back to crystal vein, but I also want to minimize non basics for tax and planar birth purposes. I have also cut elspeth for now to fit in a lotus petal. Unfortunately I think I'm only going to get goldfishing in before the tourny, hopefully stuff feels right.
I just hope I can get something together that I'm happy with in time for our upcoming tournament. I feel like the side board is easier to make then the main deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
After all the stressing of what to cut, how to make this deck awesome, etc... I'm scrapping most and going back to a core approach. I'm thinking the "new" win con is going to be belcher and I will play some plateaus and perhaps blood moon main as well.
So much desire to build, and no focus on building well. Time for a change.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
I used to run Charbelcher as well but I find it unreliable in winning games. It doesn't really win you games right away especially when you have non-basics in the deck (Land Tax can't filter them out of the deck). The only good thing about Charbelcher is it deals with Planeswalkers/problem hatebears when you have to and it resets Scroll Racks.
I have since abandoned the old school graveyard approach of Parfait because a lot of decks I've been losing to gets nerfed with Rest in Peace.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
I suppose I feel that in playing the deck I'm not going to win right away anyway. That is also my thinking of plateaus. They are just non basic plains that can double the damage. I can't get them with tax, but unlike a mountain they add white. Is this a good enough reason for me to try... Guess ill see.
Otherwise I think that is the hardest choice in the deck, how to win. I refused to even start building until I could commit to a win con. Slowly but surely in going through then all.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
Is it the South Florida Magic Tuesday Legacy? If it is, did he get featured?
I agree with this. Hell a 5 color control deck would be awesome.
As for options and how the deck goes, I think blue might help. As much as I dislike piloting a blue deck, it does help by having control of the stack. Energy Field also helps it. Although I feel that Energy Field isn't needed since the deck has a great aggro matchup anyways.
As you said before, Red has a lot to offer. From Devastating Dreams to Seismic Assault.
As for Loam, with Rest in Peace in the deck, it will not be quite effective. Also, in a deck that has tutor targets (meaning minimal numbers) and has no way to recur them, dredged non-land cards can be a problem.
Amen!
You can try Chants. I used to ran them too but ultimately cut them for Pithing Needles since combo isn't much relevant in the current meta.
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
Maybe a better route for me to go is simply ask what you were playing against with the deck. What problems did you feel you had.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
The last time I played my list and actually did good was the 2nd MTGS tourney.
The last time I played it within the local meta was about two months ago. I faced mostly aggro/combo (Elves and Dredge being the combo).
I heavily tested against Goblins, Dredge and Canadian before my finalized list, which is why my mainboard is tailored to prey on these decks. I just haven't had time to test recently, which is why I haven't made any updates.
The biggest problems I've had are Blue-based control, which is why I have Pithing Needles on the main, which are preemptive answers to both Jace and Sensei's Divining Top.
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I used to play Trinisphere on the main too. To help against decks that have lower converted mana curve. I have designated it to the side for certain matchups.
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Splash red and run Form of the Dragon maybe? Kinda wrecks non-creature stratagies except Burn.
What decks are you thinking about though? Most decks nowadays have creature win cons.
Id think Thorn would be a solid toolbox target.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
The problems I keep seeing in my builds so far are that we play very few "threats" and they are slow. By stopping only helm, I feel I can't win.
From playing Quinn I know I can beat some decks simply from chanting at the appropriate time.
To get back on track now, I think a 3sphere main is a good choice. We want the slow game, this alone seems to beat a lot if decks.
I also mentioned it to nameless, maybe a scepter or two main. Chant lock again can slow the game down enough and be a threat that we may be able to easily beat combo and again slow decks down enough to get to turn 4 where it feels like we start to kick in. Conveniently we also have multiple targets for scepter as well.
Story circle I think would be my other consideration.
I am also starting to lean away from rip/helm. While I like it, I'm starting to think I would rather have it in board as another win con and give myself access to argivian find, planar birth, replenish, etc main. I have been finding deck very threat light and that spending multiple turns durdling around without threatening anything is bad.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I have to wonder if Energy Field is any better than Humility. The litmus test to tell the difference would certainly be Burn. Well, he beat Burn with a good build/Pilot. I do not know that Energy Field is worth the trouble. In testing I always seem to be fetching Humility instead. Blue seems not to be worth it then.
I will try out other colors. But testing is useless without the right cards. Ideas?
Burning Wish also gives you sideboard options depending on your meta.
It also gives you game against blue-based control with Red Blasts.
As for other threats in mono-white, has anyone tried Stoneforge Mystic postboard? Maybe against combo or control. Most decks remove their creature removal when they found out you're playing a creature-less Humility deck.
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
3 scroll rack
1 zuran orb
3 solitary confinement
4 path to exile
4 enlightened tutor
3 wrath of god
2 sacred mesa
4 orim's chant
1 planar birth
1 mox opal
1 mox diamond
1 isochron scepter
1 humility
1 pithing needle
1 ivory tower
1 ghostly prison
1 argivian find
1 reito lantern
1 elspeth, knight errant
1 aura of silence
1 oblivion ring
3 lotus vale
2 ghost quarter
1 Serra sanctum
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
1 Aura of silence
I do feel I would gladly main a tormods crypt over the find. I feel a little more neutral on aura as I know it would be in the 75. I am liking how it gold fishes, but I do need to do some actual testing.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Sure you can hold off aggro when you have an active Land Tax (+Crucible of Worlds) but you are missing your draw phase. This means that once you can't search for any more lands, it becomes a liability again.
Also if you're going to have Zuran Orb, I wouldn't use Lotus Vale.
I would suggest Tangle Wire on your build and max out on your Mox Diamond. Maybe a couple more Chrome Mox to help you get mana without having to make your land drop.
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
@nameless: I should preface this with "I love solitary confinement." But to go a little further into it, there is a reason to run multiples. It's not do much. Matter of keeping it around, it's more that it is a white time walk in the way chant can be. Simply put, it buys time. That's good enough. Naturally it's even better to keep it going, but that isn't always necessary.
I think I'm missing something with the missing the draw phase comment. Tax/rack is a draw engine. 3 cards instead of 4 is a fair trade off.
Zuran orb I find more of a safety net of sorts. It helps to turn tax on much like vale, but with a benefit. Again, getting to the later turns is my main reasoning for this. My experience with similar decks says we need to get to turn 4, this is a way to help get there.
I gave up on mox diamonds for the most part. I found they were affecting decisions with a rack, effectively costing me cards. That's why I settled on 1. It's clearly good, but multiples felt unnecessary. The mox opal was an interesting choice for me, and I can't really even understand how I got there, but once I remembered trading post it's value got added.
Tangle wire I hadn't thought about. That does intrigue me. I'm just not sure if I can take advantage of it though. Chrome mox I don't like for the exiling of cards. With the low multiples of cards I play I'm not sure, I did consider it also as a 1 of. More food for thought in testing I suppose.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
It is an odd mix of moxes for sure. I'll be the first to admit it. But I am liking the results so far.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Although pitching Terminus or a second Humility out of my opening hand was cool.
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
I just hope I can get something together that I'm happy with in time for our upcoming tournament. I feel like the side board is easier to make then the main deck.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
So much desire to build, and no focus on building well. Time for a change.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I have since abandoned the old school graveyard approach of Parfait because a lot of decks I've been losing to gets nerfed with Rest in Peace.
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
Otherwise I think that is the hardest choice in the deck, how to win. I refused to even start building until I could commit to a win con. Slowly but surely in going through then all.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord