Gamble can find pieces you need mid-combo. I've Gambled for Scapegoat many times.
Gamble is also essentially more copies of Glimpse. Wouldn't you run 7-8 Glimpses if you could, even though they would lower your odds of drawing 0-drops mid-combo?
On that same line of thought, I've had plenty of games where I won with Glimpse+Gamble, and used turn 1 to Gamble for a second Glimpse. It was essentially an opening hand with double Glimpse.
However, if we are only talking opening hand math, Gamble has value equal to its odds of working. Gamble's success rate is equal to "The percentage of times that you use it, and it doesn't fail". If you don't have it in hand, you don't use it, and that hand doesn't get factored in. If you don't need it, then you don't use it (though it still has latent value if you use it mid-combo), and that hand doesn't factor in.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
So I got to play with Cheeri0s this weekend, and the results were not that good. Overall there were 5 matches one of which was a by.
Match one: Nic Fit: 1-2. The person playing Nic Fit was acaully a freind and I went over the deck wtih him a cuple of times so he know what was comming.
G1, On the play: Combo out turn 1 with a glimps and fizzled after about 4-5 draws, did a few turns later he got a grave titan on the board and started to pound face. WItha though seizeand a cabal theorpyinbetween he was able to keep me off from any combo.
G2, On the play: He cabal for Glimps which i did not have. Was able to use the Multani's Presence and chalice of the void combo and tendrls him to death.
G3, on the draw. He ripped my hand appart and extracts the glimpes and bet me before i could draw anything good.
Match 2 by
Match 3: U/W aggro 0-2.
G1, On the draw: He goes Delver go, I play glimpes and fizzle and never really draw anything, he kills me with a delver with a jitte on it.
G2, On the Play: I play a glimpes, he FOW. I manage to get the chalice combo going but fizzle the turn before i did but fizzle due to lack of drawing more presses or glimpes.
Match 4: BUG Aluren (No recruiter)1-2
G1: On the Draw: Did a turn 2 Glimpse into the chalice combo and tendrls ftw.
G2: On the Draw: He Fow my glimps, and was able to do the combo to kill me by turn 3.
G3: On the Play:, He turn 0 a leyline of the void. Probe him to see no counter spells and just 1 cabal. He cablas for glimps, that i did not have. I draw a glimps and go off that turn by drawing another glimpse. I managed to draw my entire deck by using the glimpse combo. I droped the wild cantor but i ended up sideboarding out my Lotus petal and could not make the second B for the hard cast tendrels. I punted.
Match 5: Enchantress:
G1: A slow start. He gets out an enchanment that gives him shroud, I scoop.
G2: I SB my enchantment hate and maged to combo out.
G3: He got a card out that all artifacts cost 2 more to play, gave it shorud so i coudn't combo out.
I would change a few things. The petals are almost useless, so i feel that another wild cantor or 2 would be nice. I would add 1 or 2 more land in the deck.
For the side board, a transformational into beastmaster assension and signle pest would be great, but i need a tutor to get the glimpse in my hand.
The real problem with the deck that is that hate is way to easy. Like the enchantress matchup. He had main board hate and he did not even see it untill i started to combo g3.
Sorry to hear about your bad night. I hope at least you had some fun.
I hate to sound like a broken record, but it sounds like most of your problems stemmed from the Chalice+Presence combo maindeck. You said your Petals were useless, as I worried before, and that you scooped to Leyline of Sanctity and similar effects.
I also feel you would fizzle less off those turn 1 Glimpses you did have, if the Chalice and Presence were instead more creatures or gas (like Scapegoat).
If instead you wish to pursue the Chalice combo, I would suggest building more tightly around it. For instance, cut Petals for another mana source (such as SSG and/or more Cantors).
To deal with fizzles I suggest Reaping the Graves, which is essentially a Scapegoat for Chalice versions, and harder to counter if they catch on to what your doing (Scapegoat is a prime FoW target).
I think adding a second Songs of the Damned, all 8 X-cost creatures, a couple Dark Rituals, and a single Ad Nauseam could all be good choices here. This gives you explosive mana and AN essentially autowins for you if it resolves.
I suggest more tutors as well. I would run some combination of 4-5 Enlightened Tutor and Spoils of the Vault, if you stay with Chalice combo. If you move away from it, some combination of Gamble, Personal Tutor, Spoils, depending on colors. At least 3-4 tutors minimum.
Thank you for your report and your interest, I hope one bad night doesn't put you off the deck forever. I hope that your luck improves in the future, no matter what deck you run! It sounds like a lot of your losses were simply ill luck, like fizzles, and that your skill was admirable in both those games and the games you won.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I acaully saw a mono black verson of this deck somewhere and it ran culling the weak and dark ritual. I cant seem to find it anywhere though, so i do not remember the rest of teh cards. I think it does run 2 Ad Nauseam
I acaully saw a mono black verson of this deck somewhere and it ran culling the weak and dark ritual. I cant seem to find it anywhere though, so i do not remember the rest of teh cards. I think it does run 2 Ad Nauseam
Sounds like an old Spanish Inquisition list to me.
I put more though into the deck and decided that everyone is pritty much correct, the Chalice/Presence combo is not that good. Instead i have added black for some different tutoring abilities.
You either start with a glimps, ad nauseam or a diabolic intent and just go on from there.
That looks fairly solid. 6 lands is a lot, but with AN I suppose you're aiming for turn 2-3 anyway, where lands and fetches are a little better than Grants.
I might suggest -1 AN, -1 Dark Rit, -1 Culling, +3 Cabal Therapy, but that's a personal choice and not really as important.
Sorry the Chalice version didn't work out. I think it has potential in a very strict and careful build, but in the end it presents problems that Glimpse doesn't.
There is a very similar AN build in another thread of mine elsewhere, I'll go grab it for you.
Ya Cabal therapy are def going in, at least, the side boards. I dont acually have the diobolic tutors, but they could help alot.
Possibilities are
Glimps -> ad N so you dont fizzle
Ad N (w/o gimps in had) to get a glimps
Glimps, drawinto a DT -> get ad N so you dont fizzle.
DT -> ad N, get a glimps and go off.
many other patters, you get the idea
I feel with a total of 8 possible combo peices, 28 cherri0s, 16 mana ramp (8 ritual, 4 ESP and 4 Lotus petals), with a hand full of other cards it may become more solid. Dropping a few cherri0s for other cards may be worth it to help servive the B and U decks.
For more use of this deck i have been thinking of Doomsday and Laboratory Maniac. So you can go like, t1, dark rit; doomsday, set up your stack with labatory Maniac, glimpe, a petal and possible a few cheeri0s. Laboratory maniac is still viable with the glimpse combo, if you end up getting 2 glimpse going you can easly draw you entire deck, so if for some reason if tendrles gets removed you can still win.
Or in g2 or g3 if they have a leyline of sancity out you can still win by using that card.
I've considered Lab Maniac a few times. He's certainly a very interesting wincon, and works well with Spoils of the Vault and Ad Nauseam. Doomsday is a very interesting touch, and I wouldn't mind seeing a list for that.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
As you can see, I need three cards for the board. I like the twelve I have because they are creature I can play for 1 and hence don`t stall the combo too badly. I`d like to run three Noxious Revival, but they are card disadvantage and I wonder what I could board out for them that wouldn`t hurt the deck too much. Any advice on the board would be appreciated!
@rsteven
Don't you find 34 Creatures to be too much? I could see why anyone would play 26-30 creatures but if you over-commit to the "More fuel for Glimpse" plan and don't put in more business spells and to help you get your win con, it eventually becomes pointless.
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On the works: Leyline Deck Wins
:symbu:Null 'n Void:symbu:
Decks built:
:symg::symb::symr::symw::symu:ChangelingsUWRBG
:symru:16 land Ignite Memories Combo:symru:
:symbu:Hunted Singularity:symbu:
I run thirty-four creatures all told. But I'm also running three wincons and three tutors. I've lost plenty because I failed to "go off" or I ran out of speed, but never because I couldn't draw a wincon.
Also, two of my thirty-four creatures are wincons. Still I'd entertain taking out the two Shield Spheres - what do you suggest in their place?
Yeah, I usually run 30-34 creatures. More creatures are what find your wincon, so I'm not sure what you're asking, unless you think we need more Scapegoats, or you're referring to Glimpse when you say "wincon".
As for that sideboard, I do suggest either the 3 Revivals or some Surgical Extractions. Both give you hot tech against Force of Will (either by negating it or removing the other copies) and opposing Extractions. When you side them in, I recommend removing either 3 Probes, or some split of Probes and Kobolds.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
Ah, yes, forgot you were on the Bushwhacker plan. I suggest Revival over Extraction personally, but other than that, good luck with it!
I assume from your Canadian-ness that you won't be attending the Atlanta GA SCG Open? Would be quite a drive for you, but you just might see the Cheeri0s mirror
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I think its a total of 25 cherri0s, 4 elvish spirit guides, the 1 labatory manianic. The deck looses to itself more than often, so you need defence. Im going to try it again this weekend at my local meta and see how i do. Ill report on it again with the updates so hopefully i can learn more.
Adding cabal theropys should help a lot.
I like more than 25 Cheeri0s. At least 28-30, probably 32. Cabal Therapies are solid, but adding more and more defense dilutes the deck until you aren't running a critical mass of 0-drops for Glimpse.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
Laboratory Maniac looks like lots of fun, but anytime I've ever drawn my library I can easily win with the other wincons (wheras they can win without drawing my entire deck). Also, Laboratory Maniac costs more than Goblin Bushwhacker or Grapeshot.
Goblin Bushwhacker is a fine win con, but if they have a leyline of sancity out you need some way to win and grape shot wont work. I currently have 28 cherrios in the deck but cards like ad nausum helps tons in the early combo, and running diobolic intent also can fetch me a ad nausm or another glimps, depending on the senero. I am running 6 lands atm, with 4 petals and 3 elvish spirit guides. The mana base seems good enough, you don't want to many lands, but i would prefer starting with 1 each game. That 1 land will help with dark rituals and culling the weak, which means i have all the black mana i need.
My "Blue" versions run both Bushwhacker and Beastmaster in the sideboard, and my Black version runs maindeck Beastmaster. My friend is actually trying to talk me out of maindeck Beastmaster, because they won't have game 1 Leyline, and I don't want to tip my hand as to my backup plan.
Taking all three Cheeri0s decks, along with Dredge Storm, to Atlanta, Georgia for an SCG Open 5k!! Anybody who lives in the area should come!
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
Taking all three Cheeri0s decks, along with Dredge Storm, to Atlanta, Georgia for an SCG Open 5k!! Anybody who lives in the area should come!
Best of luck! I'd love a tournament report (and a high placing). I'm 3 Glimpse away from having the deck built, so I'll finally be able to test it in a tournament environment soon.
Best of luck! I'd love a tournament report (and a high placing). I'm 3 Glimpse away from having the deck built, so I'll finally be able to test it in a tournament environment soon.
Thank you! Good luck on getting those Glimpses! Care to share the version your running?
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
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Gamble is also essentially more copies of Glimpse. Wouldn't you run 7-8 Glimpses if you could, even though they would lower your odds of drawing 0-drops mid-combo?
On that same line of thought, I've had plenty of games where I won with Glimpse+Gamble, and used turn 1 to Gamble for a second Glimpse. It was essentially an opening hand with double Glimpse.
However, if we are only talking opening hand math, Gamble has value equal to its odds of working. Gamble's success rate is equal to "The percentage of times that you use it, and it doesn't fail". If you don't have it in hand, you don't use it, and that hand doesn't get factored in. If you don't need it, then you don't use it (though it still has latent value if you use it mid-combo), and that hand doesn't factor in.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Match one: Nic Fit: 1-2. The person playing Nic Fit was acaully a freind and I went over the deck wtih him a cuple of times so he know what was comming.
G1, On the play: Combo out turn 1 with a glimps and fizzled after about 4-5 draws, did a few turns later he got a grave titan on the board and started to pound face. WItha though seizeand a cabal theorpyinbetween he was able to keep me off from any combo.
G2, On the play: He cabal for Glimps which i did not have. Was able to use the Multani's Presence and chalice of the void combo and tendrls him to death.
G3, on the draw. He ripped my hand appart and extracts the glimpes and bet me before i could draw anything good.
Match 2 by
Match 3: U/W aggro 0-2.
G1, On the draw: He goes Delver go, I play glimpes and fizzle and never really draw anything, he kills me with a delver with a jitte on it.
G2, On the Play: I play a glimpes, he FOW. I manage to get the chalice combo going but fizzle the turn before i did but fizzle due to lack of drawing more presses or glimpes.
Match 4: BUG Aluren (No recruiter)1-2
G1: On the Draw: Did a turn 2 Glimpse into the chalice combo and tendrls ftw.
G2: On the Draw: He Fow my glimps, and was able to do the combo to kill me by turn 3.
G3: On the Play:, He turn 0 a leyline of the void. Probe him to see no counter spells and just 1 cabal. He cablas for glimps, that i did not have. I draw a glimps and go off that turn by drawing another glimpse. I managed to draw my entire deck by using the glimpse combo. I droped the wild cantor but i ended up sideboarding out my Lotus petal and could not make the second B for the hard cast tendrels. I punted.
Match 5: Enchantress:
G1: A slow start. He gets out an enchanment that gives him shroud, I scoop.
G2: I SB my enchantment hate and maged to combo out.
G3: He got a card out that all artifacts cost 2 more to play, gave it shorud so i coudn't combo out.
My current decklist is:
4 crookshank kobolds
4 memnite
4 shiled sphere
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Ornithopter
4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Multani's Presence
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Enlightened Tutor
mana producers (8)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Lotus Petal
1 wild cantor
3 Gitaxian Probe
The kill (2)
1 Songs of the Damned
1 Tendrils of Agony
Mana (5)
3 Misty rainforest
2 savanna
1 Forest
I would change a few things. The petals are almost useless, so i feel that another wild cantor or 2 would be nice. I would add 1 or 2 more land in the deck.
For the side board, a transformational into beastmaster assension and signle pest would be great, but i need a tutor to get the glimpse in my hand.
The real problem with the deck that is that hate is way to easy. Like the enchantress matchup. He had main board hate and he did not even see it untill i started to combo g3.
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
Gross. Running without the Multani's Presence / Chalice Of The Void combo I can main deck both Grapeshot and Goblin Bushwhacker and don't need a transformation to get around Leyline.
Sorry you had a rough night.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
I hate to sound like a broken record, but it sounds like most of your problems stemmed from the Chalice+Presence combo maindeck. You said your Petals were useless, as I worried before, and that you scooped to Leyline of Sanctity and similar effects.
I also feel you would fizzle less off those turn 1 Glimpses you did have, if the Chalice and Presence were instead more creatures or gas (like Scapegoat).
If instead you wish to pursue the Chalice combo, I would suggest building more tightly around it. For instance, cut Petals for another mana source (such as SSG and/or more Cantors).
To deal with fizzles I suggest Reaping the Graves, which is essentially a Scapegoat for Chalice versions, and harder to counter if they catch on to what your doing (Scapegoat is a prime FoW target).
I think adding a second Songs of the Damned, all 8 X-cost creatures, a couple Dark Rituals, and a single Ad Nauseam could all be good choices here. This gives you explosive mana and AN essentially autowins for you if it resolves.
I suggest more tutors as well. I would run some combination of 4-5 Enlightened Tutor and Spoils of the Vault, if you stay with Chalice combo. If you move away from it, some combination of Gamble, Personal Tutor, Spoils, depending on colors. At least 3-4 tutors minimum.
Thank you for your report and your interest, I hope one bad night doesn't put you off the deck forever. I hope that your luck improves in the future, no matter what deck you run! It sounds like a lot of your losses were simply ill luck, like fizzles, and that your skill was admirable in both those games and the games you won.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
Sounds like an old Spanish Inquisition list to me.
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You either start with a glimps, ad nauseam or a diabolic intent and just go on from there.
Cheeri0s (25)
4 crookshank kobolds
4 memnite
4 shiled sphere
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Ornithopter
4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
1 Crimson Kobolds
Combo peices (8)
4 Glimpse of Nature
2 Ad Nauseam
2 Diabolic Intent
mana producers (16)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 culling the weak
4 dark ritual
Draw (4)
4 Gitaxian Probe
The kill (1)
1 Tendrils of Agony
Mana (6)
3 Misty rainforest
2 Bayous
1 Forest
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
I might suggest -1 AN, -1 Dark Rit, -1 Culling, +3 Cabal Therapy, but that's a personal choice and not really as important.
Sorry the Chalice version didn't work out. I think it has potential in a very strict and careful build, but in the end it presents problems that Glimpse doesn't.
There is a very similar AN build in another thread of mine elsewhere, I'll go grab it for you.
1x Taiga
1x Bayou
2x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal
4x Culling the Weak
2x Dark Ritual
1x Mox Opal
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Gamble
2x Ad Nauseam
12x Kobold
4x Memnite
4x Shield Sphere
4x Ornithopter
4x Phyrexian Walker
2x Wild Cantor
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Goblin Bushwhacker
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Possibilities are
Glimps -> ad N so you dont fizzle
Ad N (w/o gimps in had) to get a glimps
Glimps, drawinto a DT -> get ad N so you dont fizzle.
DT -> ad N, get a glimps and go off.
many other patters, you get the idea
I feel with a total of 8 possible combo peices, 28 cherri0s, 16 mana ramp (8 ritual, 4 ESP and 4 Lotus petals), with a hand full of other cards it may become more solid. Dropping a few cherri0s for other cards may be worth it to help servive the B and U decks.
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
Laboratory maniac is still viable with the glimpse combo, if you end up getting 2 glimpse going you can easly draw you entire deck, so if for some reason if tendrles gets removed you can still win.
Or in g2 or g3 if they have a leyline of sancity out you can still win by using that card.
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
4 Land Grant
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
Other Creatures 32
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
4 Phyrexian Walker
2 Shield Sphere
1 Skyshroud Cutter
3 Wild Cantor
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
1 Signal Pest
4 Glimpse of Nature
1 Gamble
2 Personal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
3 Scapegoat
1 Summoner's Pact
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Wispmare
As you can see, I need three cards for the board. I like the twelve I have because they are creature I can play for 1 and hence don`t stall the combo too badly. I`d like to run three Noxious Revival, but they are card disadvantage and I wonder what I could board out for them that wouldn`t hurt the deck too much. Any advice on the board would be appreciated!
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Don't you find 34 Creatures to be too much? I could see why anyone would play 26-30 creatures but if you over-commit to the "More fuel for Glimpse" plan and don't put in more business spells and to help you get your win con, it eventually becomes pointless.
On the works:
Leyline Deck Wins:symbu:Null 'n Void:symbu:
Decks built:
:symg::symb::symr::symw::symu:ChangelingsUWRBG
:symru:16 land Ignite Memories Combo:symru:
:symbu:Hunted Singularity:symbu:
Also, two of my thirty-four creatures are wincons. Still I'd entertain taking out the two Shield Spheres - what do you suggest in their place?
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
As for that sideboard, I do suggest either the 3 Revivals or some Surgical Extractions. Both give you hot tech against Force of Will (either by negating it or removing the other copies) and opposing Extractions. When you side them in, I recommend removing either 3 Probes, or some split of Probes and Kobolds.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Thank you; my SB strategy is now complete. I think I'd take out Spheres over Kobolds, though.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
I assume from your Canadian-ness that you won't be attending the Atlanta GA SCG Open? Would be quite a drive for you, but you just might see the Cheeri0s mirror
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Adding cabal theropys should help a lot.
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
I run one of each.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Taking all three Cheeri0s decks, along with Dredge Storm, to Atlanta, Georgia for an SCG Open 5k!! Anybody who lives in the area should come!
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Best of luck! I'd love a tournament report (and a high placing). I'm 3 Glimpse away from having the deck built, so I'll finally be able to test it in a tournament environment soon.
Thank you! Good luck on getting those Glimpses! Care to share the version your running?
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.