I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Thalakos Seer is arguably better than Looter il-kor due to the draw when it leaves play (and thus when it's Ninjutsu'd or destroyed), though Looter is an interesting choice. Less heavy on the blue mana requirement and good card selection. Cryptic Command is terrible in Legacy. Seriously. Counterspell is weak, run Spell Snare over it if you have to run it.
-T
My friend plays this deck (sorry, you weren't necessarily the first to come up with it :P), but he calls it Ninjafish!. He runs vials, sprites, cloud of faeries, jitte, Forces, Daze, Ninja of the Deep Hours, Mistblade shinobi, etc. It is a real blast to play!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm your Huckleberry." - Doc Holliday
"You're like the nicest person on the forum!" -Maicol
My friend plays this deck (sorry, you weren't necessarily the first to come up with it :P), but he calls it Ninjafish!. He runs vials, sprites, cloud of faeries, jitte, Forces, Daze, Ninja of the Deep Hours, Mistblade shinobi, etc. It is a real blast to play!
There's been documented ninjas (straight up ninjas) since December 08: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22063
The same ninja/fae/standstill concept has been around here and there. Here is a list for comparison (Feb 09): http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23774
Nevertheless, piloting the deck to a T8 should not be discredited, that's a huge accomplishment in a large-scale tourney.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
i found those decks:
White Stax, he owned me hard, i just couldn play anything because of gostly and trini (and 2 armageddon)...
and i didnt taken any FoW...
it dosnt seemed bad... against white stax i supose i'll take in side board some Hurkyl's Recall
Black suicide (green splashed), i tacked a hand with 2 blink, 3 FoW, ans 2 islands, i resisted his discarting, and i ended wining
Hi Nil,
First i wanna point out that you're running 54 cards, so you can add +6!
I guess your deck need more 1 drops to favor the ninjutsu turn 2. (Mothdust Changeling or the new 1 drop faerie). This will make your deck become faster to control the board. Oh, and Ornithopter must be 4-of.
I believe your concern is that you only run 2 cards to drop on 1st turn, 2 Ornithopters, which is really low, so makes your an easy prey for Trinisphere decks, even those who can't lay it down 1st turn as Stax, and yet to countertop decks.
Since it's mono-u, you can drop your mana count to 18-20, but then you can't keep all the manlands.
Another thing i'm curious is, how is Warclub running for you? I've been testing with 2-of MD, and it really improved my win rate.
Instead Hurkyl's Recall, i'd advice you to run as SB card: Echoing Truth. It's a card that will do the same job, and can help in others MUs, like gobbos.
For your deck, i'd do:
-6 Empty Slots
-4 Mishra's Factory
-4 Cloud of Faeries
-1 Ronin Warclub
I just want to chime in since I casual-ized the extended NinjaStill last year
If you are playing that many manlands... you are really leaving yourself open to a bad Wasteland/Extirpate combo
Riptide Lab IS that good. Being able to pay 4 for an on-the-board Prohibit is something you won't feel bad about in Legacy
The Mothdust was in there b/c there was also Riptide Lab, Shiruken, Swarmyard, Pendelhaven and trying for a turn 2 Spellstutter
I replaced the Ornothopter with Cloud Sprite as I wanted the turn 2 Spell Stutter/Standstill to give me big tempo
In general, I feel this deck is fun if you have average decks to compete against. It is rough times against the major forces of Counter/Top.
Looter is better than Seer for a few reasons A)1U is easier with the non-basics B) constant draw
I feel the loss of the 2x Trinket Mage is a major one. He could get you that 2nd Blue (Seat), Needle for almost anything, Shuruken to handle Goblins or Swarm, Meekstone if you'd like to take care of other things, Explosives (incentive for fetches), and that is enough without changing the starting deck
Meekstone is an interesting idea for this deck's sideboard.
I don't think Shuriken is good enough for the deck, it seems that Jitte and even Ronin Warclub is better. Maybe even Sword of Fire and Ice
I can't imagine running 8 manlands, you need blue mana for everything you do. It also makes you that much more vulnerable to Wasteland.
Looter isn't card advantage, it's card quality. The lessened blue requirements are great, but I'm still not sold that drawing + discarding (nearly) ever turn is better than just straight out drawing a card (when Ninjutsu'd or killed).
-T
I replaced the Ornothopter with Cloud Sprite as I wanted the turn 2 Spell Stutter/Standstill to give me big tempo...
Looter is better than Seer for a few reasons A)1U is easier with the non-basics B) constant draw
- I wouldn't replace orni. a zero-costing flyer is fantastic; Cloud Sprite doesn't hold a candle to Orni, even if it make spellstutter "better" -- run Zypher instead of Mothy for a solid small cc flyer that boosts Stutter.
UPDATE: I'm starting to think the same thing. Turn 2 Spellstutter-ing for #>0 is incredible tempo in your favor. Cloud and Zypher?
- I have the same thoughts on Looter. Shadow + CA by itself is nice to have. Seer needs to have Ninjistu to obtain CA while Looter can do everything by himself. Its also easier on the mana.
EDIT: Yes, looter's srawing comes with discard but looter can do this by himself (no conditions other than attacking). If you had a looter in play vs a seer in play -- both by themselves -- looter gives you draw while seer falls short
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I've been running this deck for a couple of years. I've been looking for mutavaults to add in, but alas anyone who has them doesn't want to give them up and I can't find them in stores. Also been thinking about adding in b2b:
Familiars ruse in usually pointless. It would be better as an unsummon or just counterspell or spell snare.
No it's not: same cost as counterspell, it's a hard counter that doesn't care about converted mana costs, and can give you another counterspell (spellstutter) or ninja. Those things along make it more worthwhile than either counterspell or spellsnare imo.
I'm not sure if I want Orni anymore. Although he's awesome, he is rarely "better" than a 1-mana fae flyer. The sprites give a turn 2 spellstutter the "oomph" to stop a spell + they could deal damage where orni could not.
I am not sold on my 16 Fae / 9 Ninja ratio but I haven't seen too many hickups. The times I could have asked for another Ninjitsu, I generally had a standstill in my hand or out in play. Higure as the 9th ninja is working for me...I don't like the other options out there.
3 jitte and a singleton Higure = four 4cc "bombs"...if any of these hit the board, the game swings in my favor considerably.
*I'd like Looter but I'm not sure if he's worth dropping a 1cc Fae. Those little dudes are pretty key believe it or not...I'm actually considering Sea Sprite (pro-red is huge) as the replacement card if I fix anything
*How does Scion of Oona interact with Ninjitsu? Does Shroud negate our men as a target? What about Kira, Great Glass-Spinner? Im thinking about having one of these two peeps as SB material. Not sure on the Ninja interactions. Anyone have knowledge of this?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
*How does Scion of Oona interact with Ninjitsu? Does Shroud negate our men as a target? What about Kira, Great Glass-Spinner? Im thinking about having one of these two peeps as SB material. Not sure on the Ninja interactions. Anyone have knowledge of this?
Ninjutsu says "Return an unblocked attacking creature you control to its owner's hand". No mention of the word 'target' in there, so you're good.
-T
I'm not sure if I want Orni anymore. Although he's awesome, he is rarely "better" than a 1-mana fae flyer.
Yeah, you will. It is the BEST 1st turn drop for this deck. It is the only ninjutsu outlet for 0 cost, so you can attack, ninjutsu it back, and recast for free. Faeries will all force you to have a free mana to cast it, so only on your 3rd land drop, that in a tight mana base won't certainly happen anything before turn 4-5. Not to mention it hoses cards like Lackey and Fanatic.
I also, i wanna point that people running 16 ninjutsu outlets and just 8-9 ninjas, are not hitting the go. You'll have alot of subpar drops since all ninja casts will stay into play with no way to bounce it back, so all further casts becomes less likely.
This deck MUST have 2-3 Walker of Secret Ways, you can save a counter bouncing ninjas back in your turn; or hit to find out what cards your opponent hold, so you use more wisely your precious counters; finally you can use it later game to bounce back to ninjutsu to go through opponents defenses.
I dislike alot Cloud of Faeries on this deck, since it's ability won't matter most of times. You can't cast, untap lands and ninjutsu through it; you can't pay ninjustu, bounce it back and have free mana to cast it (if you alread have, it's ability didn't mattered at all), it's ability don't help on most key plays of this deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Now i lay you, down to rest, you'll never be more than second best" (Megadeth)
I also, i wanna point that people running 16 ninjutsu outlets and just 8-9 ninjas, are not hitting the go. You'll have alot of subpar drops since all ninja casts will stay into play with no way to bounce it back, so all further casts becomes less likely.
You know, you can always Ninjitsu a creature with Ninjitsu.
Yeah, you will. It is the BEST 1st turn drop for this deck. It is the only ninjutsu outlet for 0 cost, so you can attack, ninjutsu it back, and recast for free. Faeries will all force you to have a free mana to cast it, so only on your 3rd land drop, that in a tight mana base won't certainly happen anything before turn 4-5. Not to mention it hoses cards like Lackey and Fanatic.
I agree and disagree on some comments in here. If you want to declare something the best 1st turn drop, acknowledge there is a tie between Orni and Zephyr.
Orni is a free 0/2 random flyer. Yes, being free has many perks. But it also deals no damage -- acting only as a ninjitsu outlet and early-game defense if needed. Zephyr is a 1/1 flying faerie with no drawbacks for 1 blue mana. While it actually costs something to put him out, it also boosts the power of Spellstutter later on. Being that Orni/Zephyr will always be played before Spellstutter (they both cost less), only Zephyr grants this perk for stutter. Zephyr also opens the door for more fae-derived options such as Scion of Oona.
Now I could have a progressive line of spells to play:
T1 > Zephyr
T2 > Spellstutter
T3 > Scion
That would give me flying fae who have shroud AND are still ninjitsu outlets. Not to knock down Ornithopter, but he doesn't create this and/or allow this potential to happen. I still think he's one hell of a card but I am looking to include more Faeries into the ninja-fae-still shell. If I do not draw the standstill, I have a very fluid gameplan. The pieces work together as Faeries, should the cards I need not show up immediately/not topdecked.
*Sea Sprite hoses lackey and fanatic as well; your rationale for something to work against those guys was my rationale for mentioning Sea Sprite on my last post. I think pro-red is that important + it's a faerie. It also works against burn.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
but anyways, I still think Riptide Lab is a solid plan
I made mods to my deck to run 2-3x Mistbind. They aren't bad, but seeing as this IS legacy, mileage varies. I just love soft-locking with the Lab.
The truly problematic point of this deck is how it would handle say, Volcanic Fallout coming from budget players. Or if burn is a real problem, Cave-In. I know holding FoWill is the primary action, but sometimes when they start landing Ball Lighning and what not it can cause problems. But then again, just SB Chill.
Could taking a few pages from Vintage help, IE Remora with its Commandeer + Misdirections?
Some quick comments...
How often does the 1/1 body of Spellstutter (or even the possibility of bouncing it to re-use) really matter ? Because I'm currently testing Spell Snares in this slot, they make second turn Standstills on the draw much easier, and it's not as if the deck had any 1cc-spells except Zephyrs anyway...and they give more room for non-Faries cards in deck design (for example, you can now run Blinkmoths instead of Mutavaults, or cut down on Zephyrs or Clouds for other stuff, if you want).
We need to have a 1-drop Faerie, otherwise all we're doing on Turn 1 is dropping Ornithopter. Dealing 1 damage might seem pointless, but this deck wins by dealing 1 damage at a time.
Two Gemstone Caverns could be worth a try here, again because the deck seems very reliant on tempo and has hardly any 1cc-spells...Maybe something like 3 Blinkmoth 2 Gemstone 14 Island could work.
Gemstone Caverns is a terrible, terrible card. Card disadvantage for very little gain. Even T1 Flash in Vintage rejected this card.
Writ of Passage can be useful, but what I like better is Snap: They often won't have more than one blocker anyway, they have to re-cast their creature, it is useful on the defensive as well, allows more second turn Standstills, and even lets you re-use Spellstutter. It doesn't enable your Ninjas to get in more than once like Writ does, but it still looks like a very good fit here...
I actually tested Snap for a while in the deck. It did cute tricks with Spellstutter and also bounced opposing blockers for 'free'. In the end, though, it was just weaker than everything else in the deck. Writ of Passage falls in much the same category: when I'm topdecking with little/no creatures on the board, I lose if I draw this.
FNS needs to have a huge threat density to push the damage through. Keeping pressure on the opponent, even with 1/1's, is what it's about.
The amount of card advantage this deck can generate also explains why it runs 'bad' creatures: because when I draw 3 cards, I want to be able to play all 3 in the next turn, not have to discard.
-T
I agree and disagree on some comments in here. If you want to declare something the best 1st turn drop, acknowledge there is a tie between Orni and Zephyr.
Orni is a free 0/2 random flyer. Yes, being free has many perks. But it also deals no damage -- acting only as a ninjitsu outlet and early-game defense if needed. Zephyr is a 1/1 flying faerie with no drawbacks for 1 blue mana. While it actually costs something to put him out, it also boosts the power of Spellstutter later on. Being that Orni/Zephyr will always be played before Spellstutter (they both cost less), only Zephyr grants this perk for stutter. Zephyr also opens the door for more fae-derived options such as Scion of Oona.
Now I could have a progressive line of spells to play:
T1 > Zephyr
T2 > Spellstutter
T3 > Scion
That would give me flying fae who have shroud AND are still ninjitsu outlets. Not to knock down Ornithopter, but he doesn't create this and/or allow this potential to happen. I still think he's one hell of a card but I am looking to include more Faeries into the ninja-fae-still shell. If I do not draw the standstill, I have a very fluid gameplan. The pieces work together as Faeries, should the cards I need not show up immediately/not topdecked.
*Sea Sprite hoses lackey and fanatic as well; your rationale for something to work against those guys was my rationale for mentioning Sea Sprite on my last post. I think pro-red is that important + it's a faerie. It also works against burn.
But that's a completely different thing. You're trying to do a Faerie deck, not a Ninja one, also as a Fearie deck, it'd be a bad one, since you'll have tons of bad casts like 1/1 stuff and not give full usage of Scion like in a Bitterblossom one where you get free Faeries to play with, where it really shined. So probably you'll be outrunned by decks like AggroLoam, Goyflslith, Zoo and such aggro decks, while dropping most control stuff ninja provides.
I think Scion is not in question in a Ninja build, since it'll pump and protect bad stuff, and will not hit everythings just random cards.
The goal of Orni is not beat but be bounced, so taking in account it doesn't hit is really not a likely argument here.
I want also to mention that Spellstutter is a what if counter, not the deck focus, since many hand won't have that card.
Last but not least, we must consider cards by itself, not considering drawing both Zephyr and Spellstutter, so by itself, Ornithotper is the best 1st turn drop for a NINJA deck, since it's 0/2 (holds off many threats) and is free, so bouncing and recasting for free is tech on a ninja deck.
I think the deck must run both: Zephyr and Orni, but Orni gets the first place shinning star for sure.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Now i lay you, down to rest, you'll never be more than second best" (Megadeth)
But that's a completely different thing. You're trying to do a Faerie deck, not a Ninja one, also as a Fearie deck, it'd be a bad one, since you'll have tons of bad casts like 1/1 stuff and not give full usage of Scion like in a Bitterblossom one where you get free Faeries to play with, where it really shined. So probably you'll be outrunned by decks like AggroLoam, Goyflslith, Zoo and such aggro decks, while dropping most control stuff ninja provides.
I think Scion is not in question in a Ninja build, since it'll pump and protect bad stuff, and will not hit everythings just random cards.
The goal of Orni is not beat but be bounced, so taking in account it doesn't hit is really not a likely argument here.
I want also to mention that Spellstutter is a what if counter, not the deck focus, since many hand won't have that card.
Last but not least, we must consider cards by itself, not considering drawing both Zephyr and Spellstutter, so by itself, Ornithotper is the best 1st turn drop for a NINJA deck, since it's 0/2 (holds off many threats) and is free, so bouncing and recasting for free is tech on a ninja deck.
I think the deck must run both: Zephyr and Orni, but Orni gets the first place shinning star for sure.
I just want to say that I agree completely with Halted on every point.
I've tested Scion (weak at best, and makes Jitte mostly junk) and a 0/2 is huge in this format. Especially since the M10 rules changes makes them less vulnerable to Fanatic + Tricks.
I love to see a new deck type in an eternal format that has gotted moderate success, I'm gonna proxy up a list and get back to you guys. This seems like a reallý fun deck to play.
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I just want to chime in and express my satisfaction with this deck. I find the version 3 build in the original post the most efficient and effective of the decklists in this thread. It is least vulnerable to Wasteland, as well. I am tempted to second the suggestion to run Riptide Laboratory, but I've realized that it is a subpar choice for a few reasons:
-Reduces our access to colored mana (and Islands to return for Daze turns 1-2)
-Added vulnerability to Wasteland (want to avoid this as much as possible; 2 mana on turn 2 in this deck is almost an imperative for it to work properly)
-Unless you run four, there will be very few games where you encounter the situation in which you have: 1) A surviving Spellstutter Sprite, 2) A Riptide Laboratory in play, and 3) :3mana::symu::symu: to bounce and replay your Spellstutter for continual counterspell effects. And in this "golden" situation, you're tapping five mana a turn. You know what that means? Your opponent likely has at least as much mana available as well. Which means they will most likely have the ability to cast more than one spell on their turn, one of which can be an answer to your entire army, such as dropping an Engineered Explosives for 2 after you Riptide + Spellstutter their first spell. If your opponent is smart, this whole scenario can set you up for disaster, especially when you're expending your resources on board control rather than sending as much damage to the dome as you can.
Ornithopter is beautiful against Goblins. Take that, Lackey.
Hey how about vendillion clique? This card is jsut sick. I mean expesually if you hae a bounce effect. He could just go nuts. And being a 3/1 flashy is nto bad
This is the list I am testing, I really like it even though I do not have any FOW. It seems to do well the vendillions are very sick.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Originally Posted by badjuju As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Thalakos Seer is arguably better than Looter il-kor due to the draw when it leaves play (and thus when it's Ninjutsu'd or destroyed), though Looter is an interesting choice. Less heavy on the blue mana requirement and good card selection.
Cryptic Command is terrible in Legacy. Seriously.
Counterspell is weak, run Spell Snare over it if you have to run it.
-T
Tech Manager at MTGOSS <- I make MTGO bots!
Legacy:
Thanks to SGT Chubbs for the sig
Post a list, I'd love to see the differences.
-T
Tech Manager at MTGOSS <- I make MTGO bots!
The same ninja/fae/standstill concept has been around here and there. Here is a list for comparison (Feb 09): http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23774
Nevertheless, piloting the deck to a T8 should not be discredited, that's a huge accomplishment in a large-scale tourney.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Hi Nil,
First i wanna point out that you're running 54 cards, so you can add +6!
I guess your deck need more 1 drops to favor the ninjutsu turn 2. (Mothdust Changeling or the new 1 drop faerie). This will make your deck become faster to control the board. Oh, and Ornithopter must be 4-of.
I believe your concern is that you only run 2 cards to drop on 1st turn, 2 Ornithopters, which is really low, so makes your an easy prey for Trinisphere decks, even those who can't lay it down 1st turn as Stax, and yet to countertop decks.
Since it's mono-u, you can drop your mana count to 18-20, but then you can't keep all the manlands.
Another thing i'm curious is, how is Warclub running for you? I've been testing with 2-of MD, and it really improved my win rate.
Instead Hurkyl's Recall, i'd advice you to run as SB card: Echoing Truth. It's a card that will do the same job, and can help in others MUs, like gobbos.
For your deck, i'd do:
-6 Empty Slots
-4 Mishra's Factory
-4 Cloud of Faeries
-1 Ronin Warclub
+1 Higure, the Still Wind
+2 Stifle
+2 Ornithopter
+2 Riptide Laboratory (to play around Spellstutter)
+4 Zephyr Sprite or Mothdust Changeling
+4 Standstill
I'm really intrigued if anybody else has been testing Ronin Warclub, and your thoughts about its usefulness.
If you are playing that many manlands... you are really leaving yourself open to a bad Wasteland/Extirpate combo
Riptide Lab IS that good. Being able to pay 4 for an on-the-board Prohibit is something you won't feel bad about in Legacy
The Mothdust was in there b/c there was also Riptide Lab, Shiruken, Swarmyard, Pendelhaven and trying for a turn 2 Spellstutter
I replaced the Ornothopter with Cloud Sprite as I wanted the turn 2 Spell Stutter/Standstill to give me big tempo
In general, I feel this deck is fun if you have average decks to compete against. It is rough times against the major forces of Counter/Top.
Looter is better than Seer for a few reasons A)1U is easier with the non-basics B) constant draw
I feel the loss of the 2x Trinket Mage is a major one. He could get you that 2nd Blue (Seat), Needle for almost anything, Shuruken to handle Goblins or Swarm, Meekstone if you'd like to take care of other things, Explosives (incentive for fetches), and that is enough without changing the starting deck
Loose Change Pauper Cube-cast
Pauper Cube Article #1
Pauper Cube Article #2
Personal Enjoyment Cube
I don't think Shuriken is good enough for the deck, it seems that Jitte and even Ronin Warclub is better. Maybe even Sword of Fire and Ice
I can't imagine running 8 manlands, you need blue mana for everything you do. It also makes you that much more vulnerable to Wasteland.
Looter isn't card advantage, it's card quality. The lessened blue requirements are great, but I'm still not sold that drawing + discarding (nearly) ever turn is better than just straight out drawing a card (when Ninjutsu'd or killed).
-T
Tech Manager at MTGOSS <- I make MTGO bots!
- I wouldn't replace orni. a zero-costing flyer is fantastic; Cloud Sprite doesn't hold a candle to Orni, even if it make spellstutter "better" -- run Zypher instead of Mothy for a solid small cc flyer that boosts Stutter.UPDATE: I'm starting to think the same thing. Turn 2 Spellstutter-ing for #>0 is incredible tempo in your favor. Cloud and Zypher?
- I have the same thoughts on Looter. Shadow + CA by itself is nice to have. Seer needs to have Ninjistu to obtain CA while Looter can do everything by himself. Its also easier on the mana.
EDIT: Yes, looter's srawing comes with discard but looter can do this by himself (no conditions other than attacking). If you had a looter in play vs a seer in play -- both by themselves -- looter gives you draw while seer falls short
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
4 Ninja of the deep hours
4 Mistblade shinobi
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Cloud of faeries
4 Cloud Sprite
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Familiar's Ruse
4 Aether Vial
4 Breeding Pool
4 Flooded Grove
4 Trygon Predator
3 Tarmogoyf
No it's not: same cost as counterspell, it's a hard counter that doesn't care about converted mana costs, and can give you another counterspell (spellstutter) or ninja. Those things along make it more worthwhile than either counterspell or spellsnare imo.
4 Zephyr Sprite
4 Cloud Sprite
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Mistblade Shinobi
1 Higure, the Still Wind
Spells
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
3 Umezawa's Jitte
16 Island
4 Mutavault
I'm not sure if I want Orni anymore. Although he's awesome, he is rarely "better" than a 1-mana fae flyer. The sprites give a turn 2 spellstutter the "oomph" to stop a spell + they could deal damage where orni could not.
I am not sold on my 16 Fae / 9 Ninja ratio but I haven't seen too many hickups. The times I could have asked for another Ninjitsu, I generally had a standstill in my hand or out in play. Higure as the 9th ninja is working for me...I don't like the other options out there.
3 jitte and a singleton Higure = four 4cc "bombs"...if any of these hit the board, the game swings in my favor considerably.
*I'd like Looter but I'm not sure if he's worth dropping a 1cc Fae. Those little dudes are pretty key believe it or not...I'm actually considering Sea Sprite (pro-red is huge) as the replacement card if I fix anything
*How does Scion of Oona interact with Ninjitsu? Does Shroud negate our men as a target? What about Kira, Great Glass-Spinner? Im thinking about having one of these two peeps as SB material. Not sure on the Ninja interactions. Anyone have knowledge of this?
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Ninjutsu says "Return an unblocked attacking creature you control to its owner's hand". No mention of the word 'target' in there, so you're good.
-T
Tech Manager at MTGOSS <- I make MTGO bots!
Yeah, you will. It is the BEST 1st turn drop for this deck. It is the only ninjutsu outlet for 0 cost, so you can attack, ninjutsu it back, and recast for free. Faeries will all force you to have a free mana to cast it, so only on your 3rd land drop, that in a tight mana base won't certainly happen anything before turn 4-5. Not to mention it hoses cards like Lackey and Fanatic.
I also, i wanna point that people running 16 ninjutsu outlets and just 8-9 ninjas, are not hitting the go. You'll have alot of subpar drops since all ninja casts will stay into play with no way to bounce it back, so all further casts becomes less likely.
This deck MUST have 2-3 Walker of Secret Ways, you can save a counter bouncing ninjas back in your turn; or hit to find out what cards your opponent hold, so you use more wisely your precious counters; finally you can use it later game to bounce back to ninjutsu to go through opponents defenses.
I dislike alot Cloud of Faeries on this deck, since it's ability won't matter most of times. You can't cast, untap lands and ninjutsu through it; you can't pay ninjustu, bounce it back and have free mana to cast it (if you alread have, it's ability didn't mattered at all), it's ability don't help on most key plays of this deck.
You know, you can always Ninjitsu a creature with Ninjitsu.
I agree and disagree on some comments in here. If you want to declare something the best 1st turn drop, acknowledge there is a tie between Orni and Zephyr.
Orni is a free 0/2 random flyer. Yes, being free has many perks. But it also deals no damage -- acting only as a ninjitsu outlet and early-game defense if needed. Zephyr is a 1/1 flying faerie with no drawbacks for 1 blue mana. While it actually costs something to put him out, it also boosts the power of Spellstutter later on. Being that Orni/Zephyr will always be played before Spellstutter (they both cost less), only Zephyr grants this perk for stutter. Zephyr also opens the door for more fae-derived options such as Scion of Oona.
Now I could have a progressive line of spells to play:
T1 > Zephyr
T2 > Spellstutter
T3 > Scion
That would give me flying fae who have shroud AND are still ninjitsu outlets. Not to knock down Ornithopter, but he doesn't create this and/or allow this potential to happen. I still think he's one hell of a card but I am looking to include more Faeries into the ninja-fae-still shell. If I do not draw the standstill, I have a very fluid gameplan. The pieces work together as Faeries, should the cards I need not show up immediately/not topdecked.
*Sea Sprite hoses lackey and fanatic as well; your rationale for something to work against those guys was my rationale for mentioning Sea Sprite on my last post. I think pro-red is that important + it's a faerie. It also works against burn.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
but anyways, I still think Riptide Lab is a solid plan
I made mods to my deck to run 2-3x Mistbind. They aren't bad, but seeing as this IS legacy, mileage varies. I just love soft-locking with the Lab.
The truly problematic point of this deck is how it would handle say, Volcanic Fallout coming from budget players. Or if burn is a real problem, Cave-In. I know holding FoWill is the primary action, but sometimes when they start landing Ball Lighning and what not it can cause problems. But then again, just SB Chill.
Could taking a few pages from Vintage help, IE Remora with its Commandeer + Misdirections?
Loose Change Pauper Cube-cast
Pauper Cube Article #1
Pauper Cube Article #2
Personal Enjoyment Cube
We need to have a 1-drop Faerie, otherwise all we're doing on Turn 1 is dropping Ornithopter. Dealing 1 damage might seem pointless, but this deck wins by dealing 1 damage at a time.
Gemstone Caverns is a terrible, terrible card. Card disadvantage for very little gain. Even T1 Flash in Vintage rejected this card.
I actually tested Snap for a while in the deck. It did cute tricks with Spellstutter and also bounced opposing blockers for 'free'. In the end, though, it was just weaker than everything else in the deck.
Writ of Passage falls in much the same category: when I'm topdecking with little/no creatures on the board, I lose if I draw this.
FNS needs to have a huge threat density to push the damage through. Keeping pressure on the opponent, even with 1/1's, is what it's about.
The amount of card advantage this deck can generate also explains why it runs 'bad' creatures: because when I draw 3 cards, I want to be able to play all 3 in the next turn, not have to discard.
-T
Tech Manager at MTGOSS <- I make MTGO bots!
But that's a completely different thing. You're trying to do a Faerie deck, not a Ninja one, also as a Fearie deck, it'd be a bad one, since you'll have tons of bad casts like 1/1 stuff and not give full usage of Scion like in a Bitterblossom one where you get free Faeries to play with, where it really shined. So probably you'll be outrunned by decks like AggroLoam, Goyflslith, Zoo and such aggro decks, while dropping most control stuff ninja provides.
I think Scion is not in question in a Ninja build, since it'll pump and protect bad stuff, and will not hit everythings just random cards.
The goal of Orni is not beat but be bounced, so taking in account it doesn't hit is really not a likely argument here.
I want also to mention that Spellstutter is a what if counter, not the deck focus, since many hand won't have that card.
Last but not least, we must consider cards by itself, not considering drawing both Zephyr and Spellstutter, so by itself, Ornithotper is the best 1st turn drop for a NINJA deck, since it's 0/2 (holds off many threats) and is free, so bouncing and recasting for free is tech on a ninja deck.
I think the deck must run both: Zephyr and Orni, but Orni gets the first place shinning star for sure.
I just want to say that I agree completely with Halted on every point.
I've tested Scion (weak at best, and makes Jitte mostly junk) and a 0/2 is huge in this format. Especially since the M10 rules changes makes them less vulnerable to Fanatic + Tricks.
Tech Manager at MTGOSS <- I make MTGO bots!
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
-Reduces our access to colored mana (and Islands to return for Daze turns 1-2)
-Added vulnerability to Wasteland (want to avoid this as much as possible; 2 mana on turn 2 in this deck is almost an imperative for it to work properly)
-Unless you run four, there will be very few games where you encounter the situation in which you have: 1) A surviving Spellstutter Sprite, 2) A Riptide Laboratory in play, and 3) :3mana::symu::symu: to bounce and replay your Spellstutter for continual counterspell effects. And in this "golden" situation, you're tapping five mana a turn. You know what that means? Your opponent likely has at least as much mana available as well. Which means they will most likely have the ability to cast more than one spell on their turn, one of which can be an answer to your entire army, such as dropping an Engineered Explosives for 2 after you Riptide + Spellstutter their first spell. If your opponent is smart, this whole scenario can set you up for disaster, especially when you're expending your resources on board control rather than sending as much damage to the dome as you can.
Ornithopter is beautiful against Goblins. Take that, Lackey.
-T
Tech Manager at MTGOSS <- I make MTGO bots!
16x Island
Spells
4x Spellsnare/ or rune snag or some other cheap counter spell
4x Standstill
4x counterspell
2x Jitte
3x Ornithopter
4x Mistblade Shinobi
3x Ninja of the Deep Hours
4x Spellstutter Sprite
4x Cloud of Faeries
4x Zelphyer sprite
3x vendillion clique
This is the list I am testing, I really like it even though I do not have any FOW. It seems to do well the vendillions are very sick.