I understand why you think about City of Brass / Gemstone Mine but fetchlands are too important in my opinion, mainly because they can get you Dryad Arbor. Fetchlands also provide a needed shuffle effect for Brainstorm if you choose to splash blue. Tropical can be used to hardcast Body Double anyway and we run a lot of thing that can help to cast Fanatic if needed, even without Taiga (Birds, Tinder Wall, Wild Cantor, GSZ, Carpet of Flowers).
Yea definitely nix on the city of brass idea, although it dodges stifle, the times you NEED to fetch for a single dryad arbor you can put a pattern on is pretty high, and the common vulnerability to wasteland doesn't help either. I'm not on the blue-train yet, testing a more aggressive black version at the moment, but I'll check on how everybody else does with brainstorm
What is exactly your more aggressive black version? Thoughtseize? Slaughter Pact main? Something else?
For my part I'll play with Brainstorm for the first time Tuesday, in a LGS weekly event, and Saturday in a bigger tournament. Be sure I'll repport my results and impressions about the blue splash.
I'm one of the dudes testing the Brainstorms. So far, so good, except when I'm wastelanded.
I also have been playing a +1 Emrakul and -1 GSZ maindeck and I don't regret it. There are several times when I have no sac outlet and need to win asap.
Why go for Emrakul instead of Progenitus? I realize he's stronger, but he's no good with Natural Order... meaning you would only ever get him into play with Pattern.
It's not in the place of Progenitus, I run both at the same time. So I can still go for Progenitus.
I played yesterday at local weekly event, for the first time with Brainstorm. Finished 3-1 despite lots of mulligan. I won against Esperblade, Reanimator and Stoneblade and lost to UR Delver.
Brainstorm have been good at many point of those matches. I remember one time in particular, against Stoneblade: my hand was Therapy, Progenitus, Hulk and some mana. I brainstormed into Probe, NO and GSZ, I putted back Hulk + Progenitus, shuffled with a fetchland, and then casted Probe. I saw an hand full of disruption (like double Spell Pierce, FoW, Snapcaster Mage, Sword to Plowshare). I casted Therapy the following turn (with mana avaiable to pay Spell Pierce). I later flashbacked Therapy before using NO to get Progenitus and win with it. I'm sure that without Brainstorm I would never have won this game.
That said, there is also a point where I paid for the blue splash: in my first game against UR Delver the fact that I now only run 1 basic cost me the game as I got killed by Price of Progress - a game I would have won with 2 Forest.
Overall, Brainstorm seem good and seem to worth the splash. I will definitly continue to run them for now. Saturday, I'll play in a bigger tournament. I will repport my results.
@David Orb: Props to you for trying new cards but I don't think Scroll Rack is the way to go. Scroll Rack is useless when your hand is empty, it's card disadvantage and, more importantly, it's too much mana-intensive for this deck I believe... If you don't want to splash blue, I think there is nothing better than Sylvan Library to had consistency. Sure, Library cannot send back Progenitus in the deck but, once in play, it avoid drawing it. Once you paid 4 life, you make up for the card disavantage and when you can pay more Library is really awesome. By leaving key cards on top, Library also allow you to dodge discard and allow to recover very well from Hymn to Tourach (something you can't say about Scroll Rack).
Sleeved the deck up, I think I'm going to love it!
Why is this deck under Developing (what are the decks biggest weaknesses)? Is it just under-represented? A lot of the tournament results looked very positive, and in my goldfishing it seemed consistent and got off at a good speed.
Sorry, not a fan of alterations on old cards that are in limited supply. They represent a part of the game's history, and in my opinion altering them shows scant regard for that.
Re Xantid: What is exactly your more aggressive black version? Thoughtseize? Slaughter Pact main? Something else?
I just put in 4x thoughtseize, previously I was a huge proponent of probe vs thoughtseize, but after analyzing the games that I lose, I think I'm beginning to reverse my opinion (it could also be that I'm much better at cabal therapy now so probe is not as needed) and run the full set of seizes now.
It mainly comes down to the fact that when I lose games to what I consider the worse matchup (tempo-anything, bug/rug), it's almost always because my win condition gets countered, not because I never drew one. Maybe I'm just playing it wrong? Is everybody else coming in at even 40% or better vs tempo decks? I read a lot of the matchups ppl post here on mtgs/motl, and it honestly doesn't seem like the tempo matchup occurs a lot for most people, and for me personally I hardly lose to anything else (I'm quite lucky vs storm/ant/doomsday, currently 3-0, haven't lost a round to it yet)
Re kingofethanol: Why is this deck under Developing (what are the decks biggest weaknesses)? Is it just under-represented? A lot of the tournament results looked very positive, and in my goldfishing it seemed consistent and got off at a good speed.
IMHO asides from Felix and the guy who top1'ed a Jupiter Games tourney with it, I have not seen anybody put up T8 or better results in a larger tourney, so...it's in developing For me personally, asides from the first couple week I picked up this deck, I always X-1 small weekly legacy events with it, but due to lack of large local legacy events and probably lacking a bit of experience as well, I don't get much chance to try for a T8 Also when considering the deck's biggest weaknesses, you can test a couple games in Cockatrice or something vs:
TES/ANT
Reanimator
Tempo-anything (RUG Snapcaster, Team America)
If Cage end up seeing a lot of play, Hulk Rebirth will not be playable anymore, there is no doubt about it for me. For my part, I will play something else at the begining of February before I know how much Cage there will be in sideboards.
My hope is that decks running cards affected by Cage will choose other options. Deck running Snapcaster Mage, will probably prefer Surgical Extraction, decks using GSZ or other grave-strategies will prefer using other card as grave hate.
If it's the case, Cage is perhaps manageable with a few sideboard slots. But I would not run Krosan Grip against it because siding in Grip against Zoo, Goblin or other decks that could run Cage, is lame. Beast Within appear like the best option, because it's never really a death card: we can use it to kill Teeg or Leyline or simply to kill Hulk if opponent do not draw Cage (Beast Within can even provide a green creature for NO if needed!).
Though Dread Return becomes useless, Grafdigger's Cage does not stop Bridge From Below, which is Dredge's main engine.
I think some Reanimator board in Show and Tell to fight yard hate.
Cage only stops Past in Flames builds.
It might not be worth it to stop a Snapcaster deck.
I'm only hoping is that this card is outclassed by other sideboard options.
Sorry, not a fan of alterations on old cards that are in limited supply. They represent a part of the game's history, and in my opinion altering them shows scant regard for that.
Sorry, not a fan of alterations on old cards that are in limited supply. They represent a part of the game's history, and in my opinion altering them shows scant regard for that.
Though Dread Return becomes useless, Grafdigger's Cage does not stop Bridge From Below, which is Dredge's main engine.
I think some Reanimator board in Show and Tell to fight yard hate.
Cage only stops Past in Flames builds.
It might not be worth it to stop a Snapcaster deck.
I'm only hoping is that this card is outclassed by other sideboard options.
yes, but it stops all of bridges enablers, ichorid, dread return, etc. which in turn stops bridge from below. Pretty well hoses it, I would say.
Sorry, not a fan of alterations on old cards that are in limited supply. They represent a part of the game's history, and in my opinion altering them shows scant regard for that.
I've been putting this deck together slowly over the past few months and it appears, like I did with Merfolk, I've just shown up at the wrong time. I just have a few questions
1. Has Grafdigger's Cage been a huge problem for everyone, or did we get lucky and been able to avoid the hate?
2. Is there a point to running both Death Cultist and Mogg Fanatic? Is one better than the other if I choose to run only one?
3. Is Innocent Blood something to consider? It's a sac engine for anything we might Pattern and it's an answer to Emrakul if we need to stall a bit longer.
URGImperial AnimarGRU BRGProssh, Tokenmaker of KherGRB WURNarset NostalgicRUW UBR"I like your deck better" JelevaRBU UBlue BraidsU GAzusa, Lost but RampingG
WUHanna, Pillowfort's NavigatorUW WBRAleshacratsBRW UBRGrixis Pew PewRBU URGYasova the ThreateningGRU BGGlissa the ArticiferGB WUSygg MerfolkUW RSquee, Value NabobR
Because of Graftdigger's Cage, I decided to play Maverick for a couple of weeks instead of this deck, with average success. But as it appear that Cage do not see a lot of play, I decided to pick Hulk Rebirth again and to play it in a big tournement yesterday.
The tournement was the Quebec City CMT (Canadian Magic Tour), a 2K Legacy tournement. There was 85 players, includind me and a good friend that also choose to play Hulk Rebirth for the event.
I won the first 5 rounds with ease, losing only 1 game in the process. I saw no Cage at all. I was then able to draw the next two rounds into top 8. My friend that also run Hulk Rebirth was 5-1 after six rounds, so he can draw the last round too (by the way, we was paired on round 7).
I lost my first top 8 match against Pox but my buddy win it all and took the cup. So the deck put 2 players on 2 in the top 8 and won this whole 85 players tournament. Not bad at all.
@ PopeJP:
1. As long as Graftdigger's Cage do not see too much play, it's not a big problem. I put 2 Beast Within in my sideboard to have an response to it and bring back my Fauna Shaman main deck.
2. There is no point to run Death Cultist in addition to Fanatic and Fanatic is more usefull than Cultist, so I recommand you to run only 1 Fanatic.
3. Innocent Blood is not a good card for this deck. Slaughter Pact is lot better: it's a free sac outlet and a targeted removal that permit to get rid of anoying hate bear. I mean, opponent will never choose to sac Gaddock Teeg if they can sac something else.
Quick q for you guys (good job on your T8 felix!) - I've been a fan of your rebirth deck for some time and have played it for the past few months until grafdigger's cage got printed and put it off for now. Although we should all realize by now that nobody runs cage in their 75 The reason I don't play it now is not because of cage, it's b/c of not being able to win vs rug.
Anyway,my general q to all of you guys who have decent matchups vs RUG and UW-Blade is whether you ever play on cockatrice? If so I'd love to test some games with you, there must be a huge difference in how I'm playing because I've probably not won a single match against tempo (RUG/BUG - anything with counters + stifle + removal) across all events and I'm pretty sure U/W has similar results, even though I do consider myself somewhat experienced with this deck and a fairly proficient cabal therapy sniper I T8'ed the mtgs legacy thing past 2 storm decks but of course picked up a loss vs RUG, and then matched up with the same RUG in T8 so I'm pretty sure that was just two 0-2's
The upside are that I've found the deck decent against storm - they need pretty much the nuts and not give us a chance at therapy. I've only dropped a single match against storm in events (TES/ANT/UB/Doomsday), and it's an auto-win vs dredge (our best matchup?!).
The version I've always played is very similar to the one in the primer, green/black, in case that helps. Lately in experimenting with other decks, I seriously tested Boseiju, and I think that I would definitely put 3 of these in the SB as a prayer against tempo, just a thought.
Mmm hold up - I'm not agreeing with sniping creatures, unless you are running a version with dedicated removal? An example is the hatfield RUG version which runs 4x delver, 3 mongoose, 3 snapcaster, 4 tarmogoyfs. Delver/Mongoose drops before you can therapy unless you win the dieroll, and the standard version of this deck has 4x therapy, matching up vs 4 diff creatures (14 total) seems like a bad idea?
I won the first 5 rounds with ease, losing only 1 game in the process. I saw no Cage at all. I was then able to draw the next two rounds into top 8. My friend that also run Hulk Rebirth was 5-1 after six rounds, so he can draw the last round too (by the way, we was paired on round 7).
I lost my first top 8 match against Pox but my buddy win it all and took the cup. So the deck put 2 players on 2 in the top 8 and won this whole 85 players tournament. Not bad at all.
Wait, I'm the only one that put up a fight against you in the Swiss? That puts me in a good mood.
Thanks for showing the combo to my friend after you combo-ed off against me. He's new to the format and likes seeing combo decks in action.
I might be building this deck because I like silly combos, but I have to get the sequence down pat and learn to play around hate.
About the RUG Tempo matchup:
I'm agree that RUG Tempo is an hard matchup, probably something around 40%-60% in their favor. In my experience, the most important factor is if they have Delver turn 1 or not. Delver turn 1 + disruption and/or counterspell is almost unbeatable, but when they don't have Delver turn 1, I generaly have enough time to give them a fair fight. So when I'm on the play against RUG Tempo with a Therapy in hand, I often cast it blindly naming Delver of Secrets. Goyf and Mongoose are not that scary because they are slower and easier to block, especially with a Wall of Roots.
In that matchup, if my life is high enough to race with the big Hydra, I'll always pick Progenitus over Hulk when NO resolve to avoid being stifled.
Post-board, I raise drasticly my mana count, adding 4 Carpet + 1 Xantid Swarm, generaly removing somthing like 1 Hulk, 1 Fauna Shaman, 1 Dryad Arbor, 1 Probe, 1 Viscera Seer. This way I have a lot more chance of win despite lot of Wasteland / Stifled lands / Daze.
Finally, the good news is that RUG Tempo seem to be on the decline as Maverick is rising, at least localy, but I feel it is the case in the larger metagame.
About UW Stoneblade:
In my experience this is a very good matchup for Hulk Rebirth. Since the ban of Misstep I played 20 matches against UWx Stoneblade and keep a incredible record of 17-2-1 against it, so I fail to understand why you dislike the matchup. Perhaps I was lucky, perhaps you was unluky?
Unfortunatly I don't play on Cockatrice so I will not be able to play with you, but my experience is that UW Stoneblade is slow enough to give us the time we need to win. The easiest games are those with Therapy, especialy in multiple, but even without Cabal, I'm generaly able to cast more than one killer spell in a game. They will counter the first NO but the second one (or sometime an hardcasted Hulk) will get them. Postboard, Carpet of Flower is insane in this matchup and regularly provide 3-4 mana or more.
@ IcedNeonFlames:
Yup, you was the only one that won a game against me in swiss sunday! I was lucky game 3 to have this Fanatic in hand against your Aven Mindcensor.
If you decide to give a try to this deck, I recommand you to read this thread, but also the one on MTG The Source. It will probablty took you some time but you'll learn the most important techs.
I played ZeRo at the Sacramento Star City Games event, choosing the deck over Reanimator after watching the sheer power this thing has. Granted though, this switch gave me roughly 2 weeks to learn the deck, and I hold my own play mistakes and inexperience to a 39th place showing, going 4-3. I thought I would share my own little tournament report and notes I took during the tournament. First off, the list I ran. It's a pretty standard list, with a few modifications to it for my own play style/ consistency help that I ran into during testing.
As you can see, I was loaded up on the artifact hate for the pure reason that I knew at least 5 people in the group I was going with was packing Grafdiggers Cage. Also, the addition of the Karmic Guide to the main was added for the times where Body Double was already in the Graveyard, and for the life of me I couldn't figure out how to combo at that point. Fortunately, that problem really never arose in the tournament play, but it was nice to have. Also, the mainboard Pridemage was added because my best friend runs Enchantress, and I needed some way to destroy various enchantments that stop me dead in my tracks.
At the tournament, I ran into a wide variety of decks, and my first opponent was playing Deadguy, much to the joy of my friends, since that's one of the decks I've played non-stop for around 6 months, and is still a favorite deck of mine.
Game one was a blowout for him, with a double hymn hand that hit exactly what he needed to hit, leaving me with nothing and dying quickly to Dark Confidant and Batterskull. Game 2 was much better for me, with a turn 3 Hulk combo that I had to explain to both him and the judge overseeing. Our game 3 was quick as well, where I went for the turn 2 Progenitus, and forced him to have the edict effect. He flipped Diabolic to Bob, but couldn't find a black mana source to be able to cast the edict.
Game 1: 2-1
My second round was against a very odd u/w stoneblade deck with trickbinds in the list. Our game 1 was quick, with a turn 3 Progenitus that he could not answer. Game 2 he showed Wrath of God against my field of Tinder Wall, Birds of Paradise, and Dryad Arbor, stopping a Turn 4 combo, and I never saw another creature in time to stop his attack afterwards. Game 3 I played way too conservative, afraid to turn 3 Progenitus him after seeing Wrath. That cost me dearly, as when I finally went for the combo, he had Force of Will to stop me, and Trickbind to stop a Pattern of Rebirth. I quickly fell after that.
Game 2: 1-2
Round three led me to my friend who came down with us playing Maverick. This was the match up I was waiting for, and he was dreading. Game 1 was a quick turn 2 Progenitus, leading to a fast scoop. Game 2 I was able to therapy 2 Nobles out of his hand, leaving him mana screwed, and leading to a turn 3 Hulk combo. I felt bad beating my friend in a "must win" scenario, but he still had fun playing his first legacy open.
Game 3: 2-0
In round four I found myself against Affinity, and in a fun little side note, the same affinity I played against at the Worlds legacy event, so I knew I had to be fast to beat him. Game one I did just that, going for the turn 2 Progenitus, which he scooped to. Game 2, he answered right back, with a turn 1 artifact land, Mox Opal, 2 Ornithopters, Springleaf Drum, Cranial Plating. Needless to say, I was quite dead, keeping a slow hand with double Krosan Grip. Game 3 lead to an evaluation state: I had turn 2 Progenitus, but he dropped another insane affinity hand. I had the Krosan Grip for the Plating, so rather than go for the Prog, I let him attack into the Grip, and Hulk combo him after that turn.
Game 4: 2-1
Round Five put me into the win and in slot for top 8, and I faced down Aggro Loam. he pegged the deck as just natural order, so he slaughtered every creature I played, and hit Seismic Assault/Life From the Loam both games, just crushing me. After a quick trouncing, I showed him a Hulk, and he instantly knew the deck, and wished I had been able to fight through him to give him a real match, cause hes wanted to see the deck in action.
Game 5: 0-2
I kept on playing, figuring winning out would put me in top 32, and top 16 if my breakers stayed strong. Unfortunately, my round 6 opponent decided that mainboard Engineered Explosives, Green Sun's Zeniths, his own natural order package, and Gaddock Teeg fit together in NO Bant. He EE'ed for 1 game one against a field of 1 Bird and 1 Tinder Wall, which really tilted me, seeing that he had no clue what I was playing, and it killed his only white source doing that as well. Still, Knight got there when he drew into a Savannah. Game 2 was a turn 2 Progenitus that he scooped to, saying he had no answers to that. Game 3 was a perfectly timed Gaddock Teeg to turn off my hand full of turn 3 comboing, and I didn't board into Slaughter Pact, since I figured it would turn off his deck too much. He dropped a Knight, and my lonely Dryad Arbor shed a tear while blocking.
Game 6: 1-2
Seeing as it was now the last round of Swiss, I felt the need to finish my day out, and hope to end on a winning record. Round seven paired me against Combo Elves, which, in my own surprise, I was able to out combo. Both games where turn 3 Hulk combo, leading to a fast win, and setting my day in to a 4-3 record, and a 39th place finish.
Overall I had a blast with this deck. I fell in love with it over the day, and not once did it ever disappoint me. I feel with a bit more practice I could easily see top 8 at my next event. Any and all feedback is welcome and encouraged here from the more experienced players, so I can get better at this deck.
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I recently just built the deck...Its pretty consistent but I was wondering is there anyway to autally speed the combo up, I dont know if it would kill the deck to add maybe llanor or noble may be 2 of, or what about using Goblin bombardment as a key for the combo and being able to combo off with any creature even a arbor? I also just built it specifically how its was listed in xantid swarm's updated list - just so i could get a feel to the deck before I try and alter it
hi guys:
For some months I've been following this forum/deck, and I feel I can make a good contribution to the deck, just want to share it with you.
In order to override the 95% of hate people will bring to us (relic/tormod's, surgical,,...) my plan is to put 1 extra academy rector and 1 grand arbiter in the side.
Need confirmation from you, but I guess that people uses surgicals/tormods to remove our body double/reveillark part of the combo, not the enablers...
Idea to combo post side:
1- Get hulk and sac it (worst case, we sac it with a tower or a therapy, so no more sac outlets in game...)
2- Get rector+driad+driad+feeder+seer. No hate kills us so far, opponent will do nothing
3- Sac rector to get pattern on a driad, and sac driad.
4- If no answers, we get the 2nd rector and the grand abolisher and they're locked , and we can follow up with our combo without fear of a tormod's in play, or a surgical in hand...
As a bonus, if they have leyline, change grand abolisher with a quasali pridemage + 1 extra mana, and you can also go for it.
I'm wondering about craterhoof behemoth from AVR. sac hulk > academy rector + dryad arbors + memnites? +feeder + seer > craterhoof behemoth > swing Requires less expensive cards that always seem to get stuck on my hand.
They won't have haste. It'll require you to have a big board that sticks around for an extra turn, plus two natural orders/pattern of rebirths, since you have to use one for hulk and one for the behemoth. So I'd say no.
URGImperial AnimarGRU BRGProssh, Tokenmaker of KherGRB WURNarset NostalgicRUW UBR"I like your deck better" JelevaRBU UBlue BraidsU GAzusa, Lost but RampingG
WUHanna, Pillowfort's NavigatorUW WBRAleshacratsBRW UBRGrixis Pew PewRBU URGYasova the ThreateningGRU BGGlissa the ArticiferGB WUSygg MerfolkUW RSquee, Value NabobR
For my part I'll play with Brainstorm for the first time Tuesday, in a LGS weekly event, and Saturday in a bigger tournament. Be sure I'll repport my results and impressions about the blue splash.
I also have been playing a +1 Emrakul and -1 GSZ maindeck and I don't regret it. There are several times when I have no sac outlet and need to win asap.
It's not in the place of Progenitus, I run both at the same time. So I can still go for Progenitus.
Brainstorm have been good at many point of those matches. I remember one time in particular, against Stoneblade: my hand was Therapy, Progenitus, Hulk and some mana. I brainstormed into Probe, NO and GSZ, I putted back Hulk + Progenitus, shuffled with a fetchland, and then casted Probe. I saw an hand full of disruption (like double Spell Pierce, FoW, Snapcaster Mage, Sword to Plowshare). I casted Therapy the following turn (with mana avaiable to pay Spell Pierce). I later flashbacked Therapy before using NO to get Progenitus and win with it. I'm sure that without Brainstorm I would never have won this game.
That said, there is also a point where I paid for the blue splash: in my first game against UR Delver the fact that I now only run 1 basic cost me the game as I got killed by Price of Progress - a game I would have won with 2 Forest.
Overall, Brainstorm seem good and seem to worth the splash. I will definitly continue to run them for now. Saturday, I'll play in a bigger tournament. I will repport my results.
@David Orb: Props to you for trying new cards but I don't think Scroll Rack is the way to go. Scroll Rack is useless when your hand is empty, it's card disadvantage and, more importantly, it's too much mana-intensive for this deck I believe... If you don't want to splash blue, I think there is nothing better than Sylvan Library to had consistency. Sure, Library cannot send back Progenitus in the deck but, once in play, it avoid drawing it. Once you paid 4 life, you make up for the card disavantage and when you can pay more Library is really awesome. By leaving key cards on top, Library also allow you to dodge discard and allow to recover very well from Hymn to Tourach (something you can't say about Scroll Rack).
Why is this deck under Developing (what are the decks biggest weaknesses)? Is it just under-represented? A lot of the tournament results looked very positive, and in my goldfishing it seemed consistent and got off at a good speed.
Thanks!
I just put in 4x thoughtseize, previously I was a huge proponent of probe vs thoughtseize, but after analyzing the games that I lose, I think I'm beginning to reverse my opinion (it could also be that I'm much better at cabal therapy now so probe is not as needed) and run the full set of seizes now.
It mainly comes down to the fact that when I lose games to what I consider the worse matchup (tempo-anything, bug/rug), it's almost always because my win condition gets countered, not because I never drew one. Maybe I'm just playing it wrong? Is everybody else coming in at even 40% or better vs tempo decks? I read a lot of the matchups ppl post here on mtgs/motl, and it honestly doesn't seem like the tempo matchup occurs a lot for most people, and for me personally I hardly lose to anything else (I'm quite lucky vs storm/ant/doomsday, currently 3-0, haven't lost a round to it yet)
Re kingofethanol: Why is this deck under Developing (what are the decks biggest weaknesses)? Is it just under-represented? A lot of the tournament results looked very positive, and in my goldfishing it seemed consistent and got off at a good speed.
IMHO asides from Felix and the guy who top1'ed a Jupiter Games tourney with it, I have not seen anybody put up T8 or better results in a larger tourney, so...it's in developing For me personally, asides from the first couple week I picked up this deck, I always X-1 small weekly legacy events with it, but due to lack of large local legacy events and probably lacking a bit of experience as well, I don't get much chance to try for a T8 Also when considering the deck's biggest weaknesses, you can test a couple games in Cockatrice or something vs:
TES/ANT
Reanimator
Tempo-anything (RUG Snapcaster, Team America)
If Cage end up seeing a lot of play, Hulk Rebirth will not be playable anymore, there is no doubt about it for me. For my part, I will play something else at the begining of February before I know how much Cage there will be in sideboards.
My hope is that decks running cards affected by Cage will choose other options. Deck running Snapcaster Mage, will probably prefer Surgical Extraction, decks using GSZ or other grave-strategies will prefer using other card as grave hate.
If it's the case, Cage is perhaps manageable with a few sideboard slots. But I would not run Krosan Grip against it because siding in Grip against Zoo, Goblin or other decks that could run Cage, is lame. Beast Within appear like the best option, because it's never really a death card: we can use it to kill Teeg or Leyline or simply to kill Hulk if opponent do not draw Cage (Beast Within can even provide a green creature for NO if needed!).
I think some Reanimator board in Show and Tell to fight yard hate.
Cage only stops Past in Flames builds.
It might not be worth it to stop a Snapcaster deck.
I'm only hoping is that this card is outclassed by other sideboard options.
yes, but it stops all of bridges enablers, ichorid, dread return, etc. which in turn stops bridge from below. Pretty well hoses it, I would say.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Either way, I'm hoping the Cage isn't used. It affects a few of the decks I play.
3 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Death Cultist
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Starved Rusalka
2 Tinder Wall
1 Viscera Seer
1 Wild Cantor
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Academy Rector
1 Body Double
1 Reveillark
2 Protean Hulk
1 Progenitus
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
4 Pattern of Rebirth
I'm pressed on time but I'll talk about it later.
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1. Has Grafdigger's Cage been a huge problem for everyone, or did we get lucky and been able to avoid the hate?
2. Is there a point to running both Death Cultist and Mogg Fanatic? Is one better than the other if I choose to run only one?
3. Is Innocent Blood something to consider? It's a sac engine for anything we might Pattern and it's an answer to Emrakul if we need to stall a bit longer.
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Modern: BRGLiving EndGRB
Legacy: UBGShardless BUGGBU
BRGProssh, Tokenmaker of KherGRB
WURNarset NostalgicRUW
UBR"I like your deck better" JelevaRBU
UBlue BraidsU
GAzusa, Lost but RampingG
WBRAleshacratsBRW
UBRGrixis Pew PewRBU
URGYasova the ThreateningGRU
BGGlissa the ArticiferGB
WUSygg MerfolkUW
RSquee, Value NabobR
Because of Graftdigger's Cage, I decided to play Maverick for a couple of weeks instead of this deck, with average success. But as it appear that Cage do not see a lot of play, I decided to pick Hulk Rebirth again and to play it in a big tournement yesterday.
The tournement was the Quebec City CMT (Canadian Magic Tour), a 2K Legacy tournement. There was 85 players, includind me and a good friend that also choose to play Hulk Rebirth for the event.
I won the first 5 rounds with ease, losing only 1 game in the process. I saw no Cage at all. I was then able to draw the next two rounds into top 8. My friend that also run Hulk Rebirth was 5-1 after six rounds, so he can draw the last round too (by the way, we was paired on round 7).
I lost my first top 8 match against Pox but my buddy win it all and took the cup. So the deck put 2 players on 2 in the top 8 and won this whole 85 players tournament. Not bad at all.
@ PopeJP:
1. As long as Graftdigger's Cage do not see too much play, it's not a big problem. I put 2 Beast Within in my sideboard to have an response to it and bring back my Fauna Shaman main deck.
2. There is no point to run Death Cultist in addition to Fanatic and Fanatic is more usefull than Cultist, so I recommand you to run only 1 Fanatic.
3. Innocent Blood is not a good card for this deck. Slaughter Pact is lot better: it's a free sac outlet and a targeted removal that permit to get rid of anoying hate bear. I mean, opponent will never choose to sac Gaddock Teeg if they can sac something else.
Quick q for you guys (good job on your T8 felix!) - I've been a fan of your rebirth deck for some time and have played it for the past few months until grafdigger's cage got printed and put it off for now. Although we should all realize by now that nobody runs cage in their 75 The reason I don't play it now is not because of cage, it's b/c of not being able to win vs rug.
Anyway,my general q to all of you guys who have decent matchups vs RUG and UW-Blade is whether you ever play on cockatrice? If so I'd love to test some games with you, there must be a huge difference in how I'm playing because I've probably not won a single match against tempo (RUG/BUG - anything with counters + stifle + removal) across all events and I'm pretty sure U/W has similar results, even though I do consider myself somewhat experienced with this deck and a fairly proficient cabal therapy sniper I T8'ed the mtgs legacy thing past 2 storm decks but of course picked up a loss vs RUG, and then matched up with the same RUG in T8 so I'm pretty sure that was just two 0-2's
The upside are that I've found the deck decent against storm - they need pretty much the nuts and not give us a chance at therapy. I've only dropped a single match against storm in events (TES/ANT/UB/Doomsday), and it's an auto-win vs dredge (our best matchup?!).
The version I've always played is very similar to the one in the primer, green/black, in case that helps. Lately in experimenting with other decks, I seriously tested Boseiju, and I think that I would definitely put 3 of these in the SB as a prayer against tempo, just a thought.
Wait, I'm the only one that put up a fight against you in the Swiss? That puts me in a good mood.
Thanks for showing the combo to my friend after you combo-ed off against me. He's new to the format and likes seeing combo decks in action.
I might be building this deck because I like silly combos, but I have to get the sequence down pat and learn to play around hate.
About the RUG Tempo matchup:
I'm agree that RUG Tempo is an hard matchup, probably something around 40%-60% in their favor. In my experience, the most important factor is if they have Delver turn 1 or not. Delver turn 1 + disruption and/or counterspell is almost unbeatable, but when they don't have Delver turn 1, I generaly have enough time to give them a fair fight. So when I'm on the play against RUG Tempo with a Therapy in hand, I often cast it blindly naming Delver of Secrets. Goyf and Mongoose are not that scary because they are slower and easier to block, especially with a Wall of Roots.
In that matchup, if my life is high enough to race with the big Hydra, I'll always pick Progenitus over Hulk when NO resolve to avoid being stifled.
Post-board, I raise drasticly my mana count, adding 4 Carpet + 1 Xantid Swarm, generaly removing somthing like 1 Hulk, 1 Fauna Shaman, 1 Dryad Arbor, 1 Probe, 1 Viscera Seer. This way I have a lot more chance of win despite lot of Wasteland / Stifled lands / Daze.
Finally, the good news is that RUG Tempo seem to be on the decline as Maverick is rising, at least localy, but I feel it is the case in the larger metagame.
About UW Stoneblade:
In my experience this is a very good matchup for Hulk Rebirth. Since the ban of Misstep I played 20 matches against UWx Stoneblade and keep a incredible record of 17-2-1 against it, so I fail to understand why you dislike the matchup. Perhaps I was lucky, perhaps you was unluky?
Unfortunatly I don't play on Cockatrice so I will not be able to play with you, but my experience is that UW Stoneblade is slow enough to give us the time we need to win. The easiest games are those with Therapy, especialy in multiple, but even without Cabal, I'm generaly able to cast more than one killer spell in a game. They will counter the first NO but the second one (or sometime an hardcasted Hulk) will get them. Postboard, Carpet of Flower is insane in this matchup and regularly provide 3-4 mana or more.
@ IcedNeonFlames:
Yup, you was the only one that won a game against me in swiss sunday! I was lucky game 3 to have this Fanatic in hand against your Aven Mindcensor.
If you decide to give a try to this deck, I recommand you to read this thread, but also the one on MTG The Source. It will probablty took you some time but you'll learn the most important techs.
LANDS
2 dryad Arbor
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Bayou
1 savannah
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Forest
SPELLS
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
4 Pattern of Rebirth
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Tinder Wall
1 Wild Cantor
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Viscera Seer
2 Protean Hulk
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Academy Rector
1 Karmic Guide
1 Reveillark
1 Body Double
1 Progenitus
Sideboard
1 Sacvenging Ooze
2 Krosan Grip
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Xantid Swarm
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Slaughter Pact
4 Thoughtseize
As you can see, I was loaded up on the artifact hate for the pure reason that I knew at least 5 people in the group I was going with was packing Grafdiggers Cage. Also, the addition of the Karmic Guide to the main was added for the times where Body Double was already in the Graveyard, and for the life of me I couldn't figure out how to combo at that point. Fortunately, that problem really never arose in the tournament play, but it was nice to have. Also, the mainboard Pridemage was added because my best friend runs Enchantress, and I needed some way to destroy various enchantments that stop me dead in my tracks.
At the tournament, I ran into a wide variety of decks, and my first opponent was playing Deadguy, much to the joy of my friends, since that's one of the decks I've played non-stop for around 6 months, and is still a favorite deck of mine.
Game one was a blowout for him, with a double hymn hand that hit exactly what he needed to hit, leaving me with nothing and dying quickly to Dark Confidant and Batterskull. Game 2 was much better for me, with a turn 3 Hulk combo that I had to explain to both him and the judge overseeing. Our game 3 was quick as well, where I went for the turn 2 Progenitus, and forced him to have the edict effect. He flipped Diabolic to Bob, but couldn't find a black mana source to be able to cast the edict.
Game 1: 2-1
My second round was against a very odd u/w stoneblade deck with trickbinds in the list. Our game 1 was quick, with a turn 3 Progenitus that he could not answer. Game 2 he showed Wrath of God against my field of Tinder Wall, Birds of Paradise, and Dryad Arbor, stopping a Turn 4 combo, and I never saw another creature in time to stop his attack afterwards. Game 3 I played way too conservative, afraid to turn 3 Progenitus him after seeing Wrath. That cost me dearly, as when I finally went for the combo, he had Force of Will to stop me, and Trickbind to stop a Pattern of Rebirth. I quickly fell after that.
Game 2: 1-2
Round three led me to my friend who came down with us playing Maverick. This was the match up I was waiting for, and he was dreading. Game 1 was a quick turn 2 Progenitus, leading to a fast scoop. Game 2 I was able to therapy 2 Nobles out of his hand, leaving him mana screwed, and leading to a turn 3 Hulk combo. I felt bad beating my friend in a "must win" scenario, but he still had fun playing his first legacy open.
Game 3: 2-0
In round four I found myself against Affinity, and in a fun little side note, the same affinity I played against at the Worlds legacy event, so I knew I had to be fast to beat him. Game one I did just that, going for the turn 2 Progenitus, which he scooped to. Game 2, he answered right back, with a turn 1 artifact land, Mox Opal, 2 Ornithopters, Springleaf Drum, Cranial Plating. Needless to say, I was quite dead, keeping a slow hand with double Krosan Grip. Game 3 lead to an evaluation state: I had turn 2 Progenitus, but he dropped another insane affinity hand. I had the Krosan Grip for the Plating, so rather than go for the Prog, I let him attack into the Grip, and Hulk combo him after that turn.
Game 4: 2-1
Round Five put me into the win and in slot for top 8, and I faced down Aggro Loam. he pegged the deck as just natural order, so he slaughtered every creature I played, and hit Seismic Assault/Life From the Loam both games, just crushing me. After a quick trouncing, I showed him a Hulk, and he instantly knew the deck, and wished I had been able to fight through him to give him a real match, cause hes wanted to see the deck in action.
Game 5: 0-2
I kept on playing, figuring winning out would put me in top 32, and top 16 if my breakers stayed strong. Unfortunately, my round 6 opponent decided that mainboard Engineered Explosives, Green Sun's Zeniths, his own natural order package, and Gaddock Teeg fit together in NO Bant. He EE'ed for 1 game one against a field of 1 Bird and 1 Tinder Wall, which really tilted me, seeing that he had no clue what I was playing, and it killed his only white source doing that as well. Still, Knight got there when he drew into a Savannah. Game 2 was a turn 2 Progenitus that he scooped to, saying he had no answers to that. Game 3 was a perfectly timed Gaddock Teeg to turn off my hand full of turn 3 comboing, and I didn't board into Slaughter Pact, since I figured it would turn off his deck too much. He dropped a Knight, and my lonely Dryad Arbor shed a tear while blocking.
Game 6: 1-2
Seeing as it was now the last round of Swiss, I felt the need to finish my day out, and hope to end on a winning record. Round seven paired me against Combo Elves, which, in my own surprise, I was able to out combo. Both games where turn 3 Hulk combo, leading to a fast win, and setting my day in to a 4-3 record, and a 39th place finish.
Overall I had a blast with this deck. I fell in love with it over the day, and not once did it ever disappoint me. I feel with a bit more practice I could easily see top 8 at my next event. Any and all feedback is welcome and encouraged here from the more experienced players, so I can get better at this deck.
For some months I've been following this forum/deck, and I feel I can make a good contribution to the deck, just want to share it with you.
In order to override the 95% of hate people will bring to us (relic/tormod's, surgical,,...) my plan is to put 1 extra academy rector and 1 grand arbiter in the side.
Need confirmation from you, but I guess that people uses surgicals/tormods to remove our body double/reveillark part of the combo, not the enablers...
Idea to combo post side:
1- Get hulk and sac it (worst case, we sac it with a tower or a therapy, so no more sac outlets in game...)
2- Get rector+driad+driad+feeder+seer. No hate kills us so far, opponent will do nothing
3- Sac rector to get pattern on a driad, and sac driad.
4- If no answers, we get the 2nd rector and the grand abolisher and they're locked , and we can follow up with our combo without fear of a tormod's in play, or a surgical in hand...
As a bonus, if they have leyline, change grand abolisher with a quasali pridemage + 1 extra mana, and you can also go for it.
How do you see it?
They won't have haste. It'll require you to have a big board that sticks around for an extra turn, plus two natural orders/pattern of rebirths, since you have to use one for hulk and one for the behemoth. So I'd say no.
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WUSygg MerfolkUW
RSquee, Value NabobR
Also, that kill involves 7 cards (2 1-cmc infinite sac outlets, 3 Blood Artist, 2 Body Snatcher), while the traditional kill involves 5 (2 1-cmc infinite sac outlets, 1 Lark, 1 Body Double, 1 Mogg Fanatic).
If you really want to stay in GB, an alternate kill involves Melira, Sylvok Outcast and Murderous Redcap instead of Reveillark and Mogg Fanatic.