Here is an update of RTR cards for Legacy Knights. Long overdue but better late than never ;). As usual, feel free to critique or comment, thanks!
RTR UPDATE FOR LEGACY KNIGHTS.
1.0 Knight creatures As there is only U knights or UW knights provided by this set, the knights here are almost irrelevant to Legacy Knights since Knights with a U splash are not a strong color and thus suffers even worse from comparison with tribes such as Merfolk and Faeries.
Hussar Patrol
Flash is definitely good here as it can mess up combat calculations while it also has a toughness of >3. It can comes in EOT to deal the last points of damage next turn (if opponent is down to 2 life however remote it is). Vigilance while not gamebreaking is also useful.
Unfortunately at 4 CMC, Hero of Bladehold,Phyrexian Metamorph, Kinsbaile Cavalier, Wilt-leaf Liege, Elspeth, Knight Errant are all better then him.
Isperia's Skywatch
This is not good enough in Standard. I didnt even pick this Knight in my limited deck during pre-release. 3/3 flyer for 6 CMC and a detain ability, I'm not sure if I would even play him if he had an temporary exile ability so to speak.
Lyev Skyknight
This knight might be playable, I felt it does seems to have a place in a UW Knight tempo build. A 3/1 flyer for 3cc is not impressive stats but it might function effectively or fulfill its role if it is placed in the right deck and strategy, something to KIV, as its not exciting enough to want to make me build a deck straightaway.
2.0 Non-Knight creatures It would be easy to leave out some creatures here, but these 2 comes to mind here and could slot straight into existing knight decks.
Dryad Militant
At the moment, the 1CC creature slot is dominated by Student of Warfare and Mother of Runes. This creature is at best sideboard fodder against Dredge or Reanimator, it should stay in the sideboard unless the meta becomes totally swarmed by them.
Judge's Familiar
Will work well in the UW tempo Knights build - if there is one. Pretty much a flying cursecatcher, has a place here due to its "correct" casting cost more than anything.
3.0 Spells for Knight
Knightly Valor & Security Blockade
Still cannot see enchantment auras working here, although it offers a 2 for 1. Simply not fantastic enough in terms of ability or cheap enough in terms of casting cost. I like Knight tokens though ;).
Selesnya Charm
Charms as always with 3 different abilities offers some kind of utility, although at the expense of underpowerness in what it specifically does. That said, all 3 options provided by Selesnya Charm has good relevance in a typical knight deck, so should be considered as a possible maindeck card.
You forgot to mention Rest in Peace. I've been testing it in the board, but I haven't had many opportunities to test it out. Serenity seems slightly better, but that might be because I've used it much more than RIP.
You forgot to mention Rest in Peace. I've been testing it in the board, but I haven't had many opportunities to test it out. Serenity seems slightly better, but that might be because I've used it much more than RIP.
Don't these perform completely different functions?
I agree that Rest in Peace seems pretty decent, but I still need to see whether it's better than some combination of Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus. It's probably more comparable to Wheel of Sun and Moon than anything else. I also attempt to play around with my graveyard through Mistveil Plains/Emeria/SoLS, so I worry about losing that interaction with Rest in Peace. If you play an Enlightened Tutor package like many of the D&T lists, you could probably afford to run 1 copy of each in the board for the sake of diversity.
Sundering Growth was really the only card from [RTR] that immediately jumped out at me. In mono-W lists it seems better than Disenchant, for the small chance that you can copy a Soldier or Spirit token or something. In GW, you're still better off with Qasali Pridemage, Nature's Claim or Krosan Grip.
Don't these perform completely different functions?
I agree that Rest in Peace seems pretty decent, but I still need to see whether it's better than some combination of Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus. It's probably more comparable to Wheel of Sun and Moon than anything else. I also attempt to play around with my graveyard through Mistveil Plains/Emeria/SoLS, so I worry about losing that interaction with Rest in Peace. If you play an Enlightened Tutor package like many of the D&T lists, you could probably afford to run 1 copy of each in the board for the sake of diversity.
Sundering Growth was really the only card from [RTR] that immediately jumped out at me. In mono-W lists it seems better than Disenchant, for the small chance that you can copy a Soldier or Spirit token or something. In GW, you're still better off with Qasali Pridemage, Nature's Claim or Krosan Grip.
God, I must've been half asleep when I wrote that. I meant Tormod's Crypt. My bad.
Almost 90% of the deck are identical to majority of GW Legacy Knights decks out there, the difference being Kinsbaile Cavalier and variation of Lands. Do note that this deck is limited by budget, I'm just not going to shell out $100 for one Wasteland or any vintage dual lands.
Almost 90% of the deck are identical to majority of GW Legacy Knights decks out there, the difference being Kinsbaile Cavalier and variation of Lands. Do note that this deck is limited by budget, I'm just not going to shell out $100 for one Wasteland or any vintage dual lands.
Any critiques for improvements are welcome.
Looks like a pretty standard Legacy Knights list to me -- should be pretty solid. If Wasteland is out of your price range (you would probably only need one copy in the deck anyway), what about running 1x Ghost Quarter or 1x Tectonic Edge? It's nice to have some kind of land destruction that you can tutor up with Knight of the Reliquary. I assume Lotus Vale is there to boost KotR, too? My only worry is that it's going to have a huge bullseye on it for opposing Wastelands, which will set you back bigtime. I might just throw some other utility land in its place, like Treetop Village or Mistveil Plains or something of that nature. You'll also have to let us know how the Cavaliers go...I typically prefer Mirran Crusader here (easier with Vial, too), but if you find you have a decent number of creatures out, this does basically end the game for you. Looks good!
You forgot to mention Rest in Peace. I've been testing it in the board, but I haven't had many opportunities to test it out. Serenity seems slightly better, but that might be because I've used it much more than RIP.
Yup, I don't know why I completely missed it out even after discussing about it in earlier posts, anyway thanks for pointing it out, I'll add it into the primer in the next round of updates.
Sundering Growth was really the only card from [RTR] that immediately jumped out at me. In mono-W lists it seems better than Disenchant, for the small chance that you can copy a Soldier or Spirit token or something. In GW, you're still better off with Qasali Pridemage, Nature's Claim or Krosan Grip.
I also saw Sundering Growth as a potential card initally, however like you pointed out, Qasali Pridemage and Krosan Grip are better for GW Knights since Pridemage has the exalted mechanic, interacts with Aether Vial and provide an additional body for beatdown. Krosan Grip's split second mechanic is also useful especially against blue based decks or when targeted at Sensei'a Divining Top.
Looks like a pretty standard Legacy Knights list to me -- should be pretty solid. If Wasteland is out of your price range (you would probably only need one copy in the deck anyway), what about running 1x Ghost Quarter or 1x Tectonic Edge? It's nice to have some kind of land destruction that you can tutor up with Knight of the Reliquary. I assume Lotus Vale is there to boost KotR, too? My only worry is that it's going to have a huge bullseye on it for opposing Wastelands, which will set you back bigtime. I might just throw some other utility land in its place, like Treetop Village or Mistveil Plains or something of that nature. You'll also have to let us know how the Cavaliers go...I typically prefer Mirran Crusader here (easier with Vial, too), but if you find you have a decent number of creatures out, this does basically end the game for you. Looks good!
Good advice as usual from AEIOUsometimesY. I would suggest Stirring Wildwood as well, although it costs more to activate compared to Treetop Village, it gives us Reach against flyers which is lacking in Knights. And yeah, playing a Lotus Vale is scary stuff when Wasteland is prevalent in so many legacy decks :o.
Other than a couple of card choices (and the mana base), I realize that this is a fairly standard GW knights deck, but I thought I'd at least bring some of these up for discussion.
First off, you'll notice the exclusion of Student of Warfare. I just find that it tends to be really underwhelming. For the most part it sits there being a 1/1 knight, and the times that I do pump it it always seems like it gets hit by a Bolt or StP in response, and then it's ruined my tempo.
This is basically replaced with Knight of the Holy Nimbus. Maybe it's the meta that I play with or something, but this card almost always ends up being awesome. It's spectacular against aggro; it essentially makes non-white kill spells cost 2 more, and very few aggro decks are keeping 2 mana available to kill it. I go back and forth between this and Knight of Meadowgrain in the 2-slot, because KoM can help survive against pure aggro decks until DoJ.
The second strange inclusion, I'm sure, is Worldly Tutor. Yes, I know it's technically card disadvantage, but getting Knight Exemplar (or, ideally, two) out is so fundamentally important to the function of this deck that I think it's worth the hit. It can also search for Phyrexian Metamorph, which is your toolbox card.
Lastly, Day of Judgment - mostly I love its interaction with Knight Exemplar and Knight of the Holy Nimbus, but this is pretty much a must card for dealing with certain decks, and I'll probably put two in the board once I get a handle on this main deck.
You can't be competitive in Legacy just being a dumb aggro deck.
Any aggro deck that wants to be competitive in Legacy needs some elements of disruption. Goblins uses mana denial via Wasteland and Rishadan Port, and some lists plays Thalia. Death and Taxes uses the same stuff plus Thalia and Mangara. Threshold/Delver and Merfolk use the standard blue suite (Force of Will, Spell Pierce, Stifle, etc). Black-based aggro has access to discard such as Inquisition, Thoughtseize, Hymn, etc.
Competitive aggro in Legacy also needs some kind of late-game - some way to generate card advantage later in the game (like Goblins with Ringleaders, Maverick with Knight), OR it needs to be blazingly fast and disruptive early in the game (like Delver/Thresh, Elves, Merfolk, or Affinity).
Mono white knights is simply nothing more than a casual deck and casual idea in Legacy.
So what exactly is the benefit to running all of these Knight creatures rather than say, other more efficient mono-white guys like the ones that Death and Taxes plays, or the more efficient green and white guys that Maverick plays?
Is there some reason to be tied to the "Knight" creature type?
Goblins plays tons of "Goblin" creatures because it actually is meaningful to powerful cards such as Goblin Matron and Goblin Ringleader. Merfolk plays "Merfolk" creatures because they have 12+ lords like Lord of Atlantis and Merrow Reejery that pump the "Merfolk" creature type. Soldiers plays the "Soldier" creature type because they can put them into play with Preeminent Captain and draw them with Enlistment Officer and pump them with lords.
I don't see anything like that with the "Knight" creature type other than its interaction with Cavern. And if the only reason this deck plays tons of "Knight" creatures is because of Cavern and/or because Knights are cool... then it's simply a substandard deck that should be strictly casual.
Ok, there's basically one lord: Knight Exemplar. One 2/2 three mana lord does not make it worthwhile to be tied to more inefficient creatures, in my opinion. I'd rather play more of the efficient guys that Maverick and DnT play than hope I draw one of four cards in a deck that gives my other creatures +1/+1 and indestructibility.
If you want to play Aether Vial and mono-white guys and equipment, why not just play Death and Taxes, which has more disruption elements and better creatures? And if you want to run Knight of the Reliquary, why not just play Maverick, which has better creatures to support it? I don't see any reason to play this deck over either Death and Taxes or Maverick other than if you like Knights as a real-world flavor concept and in that case you are basically choosing this as a casual deck.
You can't be competitive in Legacy just being a dumb aggro deck.
Any aggro deck that wants to be competitive in Legacy needs some elements of disruption. Goblins uses mana denial via Wasteland and Rishadan Port, and some lists plays Thalia. Death and Taxes uses the same stuff plus Thalia and Mangara. Threshold/Delver and Merfolk use the standard blue suite (Force of Will, Spell Pierce, Stifle, etc). Black-based aggro has access to discard such as Inquisition, Thoughtseize, Hymn, etc.
Competitive aggro in Legacy also needs some kind of late-game - some way to generate card advantage later in the game (like Goblins with Ringleaders, Maverick with Knight), OR it needs to be blazingly fast and disruptive early in the game (like Delver/Thresh, Elves, Merfolk, or Affinity).
Mono white knights is simply nothing more than a casual deck and casual idea in Legacy.
Ignore the troll. Exemplar+Cavern is strong enough for this deck. I would drop Lightning Greaves and Honor the Pure and add in Thalia. Even if she's not a Knight, she's really going to help out your bad MU's.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You like Super Smash Bros.? Melee or Brawl? Check this out! http://projectm.dantarion.com/
It's an updated version of Brawl into an epic, new game.
So what exactly is the benefit to running all of these Knight creatures rather than say, other more efficient mono-white guys like the ones that Death and Taxes plays, or the more efficient green and white guys that Maverick plays?
Is there some reason to be tied to the "Knight" creature type?
Goblins plays tons of "Goblin" creatures because it actually is meaningful to powerful cards such as Goblin Matron and Goblin Ringleader. Merfolk plays "Merfolk" creatures because they have 12+ lords like Lord of Atlantis and Merrow Reejery that pump the "Merfolk" creature type. Soldiers plays the "Soldier" creature type because they can put them into play with Preeminent Captain and draw them with Enlistment Officer and pump them with lords.
I don't see anything like that with the "Knight" creature type other than its interaction with Cavern. And if the only reason this deck plays tons of "Knight" creatures is because of Cavern and/or because Knights are cool... then it's simply a substandard deck that should be strictly casual.
Ok, there's basically one lord: Knight Exemplar. One 2/2 three mana lord does not make it worthwhile to be tied to more inefficient creatures, in my opinion. I'd rather play more of the efficient guys that Maverick and DnT play than hope I draw one of four cards in a deck that gives my other creatures +1/+1 and indestructibility.
If you want to play Aether Vial and mono-white guys and equipment, why not just play Death and Taxes, which has more disruption elements and better creatures? And if you want to run Knight of the Reliquary, why not just play Maverick, which has better creatures to support it? I don't see any reason to play this deck over either Death and Taxes or Maverick other than if you like Knights as a real-world flavor concept and in that case you are basically choosing this as a casual deck.
Not the most orthodox post to drum up interest in Legacy Knights :rolleyes:.
You could just post this same message (minus the newly added portion about Knight Exemplar) into almost every other thread here.
If enough people takes issue with the word "competitive" in the title I have no issues over removing it.
So what exactly is the benefit to running all of these Knight creatures rather than say, other more efficient mono-white guys like the ones that Death and Taxes plays, or the more efficient green and white guys that Maverick plays?
Is there some reason to be tied to the "Knight" creature type?
Goblins plays tons of "Goblin" creatures because it actually is meaningful to powerful cards such as Goblin Matron and Goblin Ringleader. Merfolk plays "Merfolk" creatures because they have 12+ lords like Lord of Atlantis and Merrow Reejery that pump the "Merfolk" creature type. Soldiers plays the "Soldier" creature type because they can put them into play with Preeminent Captain and draw them with Enlistment Officer and pump them with lords.
I don't see anything like that with the "Knight" creature type other than its interaction with Cavern. And if the only reason this deck plays tons of "Knight" creatures is because of Cavern and/or because Knights are cool... then it's simply a substandard deck that should be strictly casual.
Ok, there's basically one lord: Knight Exemplar. One 2/2 three mana lord does not make it worthwhile to be tied to more inefficient creatures, in my opinion. I'd rather play more of the efficient guys that Maverick and DnT play than hope I draw one of four cards in a deck that gives my other creatures +1/+1 and indestructibility.
If you want to play Aether Vial and mono-white guys and equipment, why not just play Death and Taxes, which has more disruption elements and better creatures? And if you want to run Knight of the Reliquary, why not just play Maverick, which has better creatures to support it? I don't see any reason to play this deck over either Death and Taxes or Maverick other than if you like Knights as a real-world flavor concept and in that case you are basically choosing this as a casual deck.
I'm not speaking for all of us here, because... well, I obviously can't. What I'm going to put forth is my opinion and others may share a different one.
First off, there are really two lords. The first, as you mentioned, is Knight Exemplar, but the second is actually Kinsbaile Cavalier. These two Lords, in my opinion, are two of the best lords in the game, as they are both offer extraordinarily potent abilities in Indestructible and Double Strike. The Exemplar, on his own, is enough to warrant building a deck around; if you've ever played against someone with two of those in play at once, you'd understand.
Secondly, there's the issue of feeling like we're doing out own thing, and that most of the time, it works. Many of us have an emotional attachment to the concepts of making Knights work because a) for one reason or another it's our favorite tribe flavor-wise, or b) because we started out on this when Exemplar was in standard, moved into Modern/Legacy when he rotated out, and have been trying to make it work (with differing degrees of success) ever since. For me, it feels like a cohesive deck rather than a random collection of powerful cards in a certain color. Perhaps that makes me more of a casual player, but I'm okay with that; not all of us are going to PTQs, but we do want a deck that will at least be competitive with most of the good ones (this is).
I'm pretty sure it was not a troll. Mtg-Fan is entirely correct. In fact, after telling Acefreemok to ignore what he said, you go on to recommend basically the same thing in Thalia.
The deck needs disruption, plain and simple. Knights, as a tribe simply do not provide enough of an incentive to restrict your creature selection. In the long run, the deck is destined for casual until stronger Knights get printed.
I can't speak for others, but I have no illusions delusions of grandeur when it comes to playing Knights. I am fully aware that it will never be Tier 1-2 without better Knights printed, but that doesn't stop me from working with what I have.
However, it's worth noting that many Knight decks do play some combination of Mother of Runes, Stoneforge Mystic, Thalia, and Qasali Pridemage (off the top of my head)...making it appear similar to Maverick and D&T lists, but playing a little more Aggro-ish. You can easily tailor a "Knight" deck to perform similarly to either of those archetypes if desired. They are primarily called Knight decks because they typically feature ~12-16 Knight creatures, including Student of Warfare, Knight of the White Orchid, Knight of Meadowgrain, Knight Exemplar, Knight of the Reliquary, Silverblade Paladin, and Mirran Crusader. Contrary to some lists in this thread (where all lists, both casual and more competitive-oriented, are featured), you don't have to jam ~25-30 Knights in a deck and call it a day. I'm sorry that not one, but two threads dedicated to Knights got you so upset :-/.
I'm pretty sure it was not a troll. Mtg-Fan is entirely correct. In fact, after telling Acefreemok to ignore what he said, you go on to recommend basically the same thing in Thalia.
The deck needs disruption, plain and simple. Knights, as a tribe simply do not provide enough of an incentive to restrict your creature selection. In the long run, the deck is destined for casual until stronger Knights get printed.
Even if he is correct, perhaps it's the elitest nature and timing of his post which irks people off. At least that's how I look at it. This is the not proven or established forum so cut some slack here.
If the store owner says that I can't trade in the premises, I'll just go outside. If he says that I can't trade within 10m of his premises, I'll go to 11 meters. If he says that he doesn't want to see me trading, I will put a basket over his head and continue trading.
Yes, he's a local legend. He's only known to take his clothes off before he goes into the Ladies' Lockerroom. Nobody knows what he does in there because he's invisible, but it's almost certainly tons of masturbating.
First of all, thank you everyone who has taken the time to read this, and even more thanks to those who have taken the time to provide feedback. I've read thoroughly (appreciate the like Heallan and taken into consideration feedback provided and altered the deck where relevant.
Any further feedback would be greatly appreciated.
I wonder what people's thoughts are relating to Leonin Skyhunter. I appreciate this isn't the strongest card, but it adds flying. Would other people go with four of these, or perhaps I should replace two of these with path to exile?
I like Day of Judgement in this deck, as if I can get out Exemplar, I can wipe the board of creatures while keeping mine out there, but perhaps replacing one or two with Path to Exile might be a better idea?
Thanks again guys and I didn't take MTG-Fan's comments as trolling!
First of all, thank you everyone who has taken the time to read this, and even more thanks to those who have taken the time to provide feedback. I've read thoroughly (appreciate the like Heallan and taken into consideration feedback provided and altered the deck where relevant.
Any further feedback would be greatly appreciated.
I wonder what people's thoughts are relating to Leonin Skyhunter. I appreciate this isn't the strongest card, but it adds flying. Would other people go with four of these, or perhaps I should replace two of these with path to exile?
I like Day of Judgement in this deck, as if I can get out Exemplar, I can wipe the board of creatures while keeping mine out there, but perhaps replacing one or two with Path to Exile might be a better idea?
Thanks again guys and I didn't take MTG-Fan's comments as trolling!
I personally like Leonin Skyhunter and consider him borderline playable, but it really depends on what the other people you play against are playing.
In general, what you play really depends on what the other players in your group are playing and what role you want the card to play. I generally find myself fighting a lot of aggro decks, which is why I use Knight of the Holy Nimbus; it can really cause problems for decks that rely on destruction/damage effects to control the board. If you are needing the evasion, then Skyhunter is a good card, but I would ask you this - when you have one in play, are you happy what you were able to do with that two mana, and/or can you use it more efficiently? We can't really answer that question - again, it depends on your meta - but it's a consideration you need to make.
As much as I'm loathe to admit it, Finn is right - the deck needs disruption to be truly competitive. That doesn't mean that Knights as a whole are destined for irrelevance, it simply means that we have to take other issues into consideration.
The g/w build, and it is, simply put, weaker against Goblins and Merfolk. I don't want to slaughter the whole concept of the deck, but Finn is right in that it needs some sort of disruption package. Enter blue, exit green. The deck becomes more controllish, offering disruption and draw without losing Exemplar's benefits.
As much as I'm loathe to admit it, Finn is right - the deck needs disruption to be truly competitive. That doesn't mean that Knights as a whole are destined for irrelevance, it simply means that we have to take other issues into consideration.
The g/w build, and it is, simply put, weaker against Goblins and Merfolk. I don't want to slaughter the whole concept of the deck, but Finn is right in that it needs some sort of disruption package. Enter blue, exit green. The deck becomes more controllish, offering disruption and draw without losing Exemplar's benefits.
Now the deck plays worse creatures with a much higher mana curve and isn't even taking advantage of running Brainstorm, or blue for that matter (Force of Will/Jace 2.0). This will likely make it even worse against Merfolk and Goblins. Gideon and Venser also don't do enough in Legacy, and I think you'll find yourself doing nothing more often than not for the first few turns. The deck really doesn't need to do anything fancy, and I think some folks are making it more complicated than it needs to be -- the deck plays better as an aggroish deck focusing on its creature suite's ability to perform well in combat rather than trying to play expensive Sorcery-speed spells. I like to play monowhite for the mana consistency, and because White does have the available tools to combat most decks. If splashing a second color, a Green splash is really going to be the best option for the reasons that Maverick works as a deck (more toolbox options, more hatebears, etc). If you're going to change the deck around to do something Knights can't really do, then you really are just better off playing Maverick or D&T.
Now the deck plays worse creatures with a much higher mana curve and isn't even taking advantage of running Brainstorm, or blue for that matter (Force of Will/Jace 2.0). This will likely make it even worse against Merfolk and Goblins. Gideon and Venser also don't do enough in Legacy, and I think you'll find yourself doing nothing more often than not for the first few turns. The deck really doesn't need to do anything fancy, and I think some folks are making it more complicated than it needs to be -- the deck plays better as an aggroish deck focusing on its creature suite's ability to perform well in combat rather than trying to play expensive Sorcery-speed spells. I like to play monowhite for the mana consistency, and because White does have the available tools to combat most decks. If splashing a second color, a Green splash is really going to be the best option for the reasons that Maverick works as a deck (more toolbox options, more hatebears, etc). If you're going to change the deck around to do something Knights can't really do, then you really are just better off playing Maverick or D&T.
First off, how does one take advantage of Brainstorm other than cast it?
I admittedly don't play a ton of legacy, and I know that my playgroup tends to pick more casual stuff than I do, but it seems to me that the point of an aggro deck is to get those beaters out and punch face more quickly than your opponent. Knights just has a tougher time doing that against the better decks in the format.
First off, how does one take advantage of Brainstorm other than cast it?
I admittedly don't play a ton of legacy, and I know that my playgroup tends to pick more casual stuff than I do, but it seems to me that the point of an aggro deck is to get those beaters out and punch face more quickly than your opponent. Knights just has a tougher time doing that against the better decks in the format.
You really only play Brainstorm if you can reliably shuffle away the 2 cards you place on top of your library or if you need to dig for answers/hide cards in response to something. Without fetchlands, other search/shuffle effects, or a significant number of instants worth digging for, you just aren't getting your mileage out of casting Brainstorm. It's a few years old now, but this is still a pretty decent article that covers the intricacies of casting Brainstorm.
As much as I'm loathe to admit it, Finn is right - the deck needs disruption to be truly competitive. That doesn't mean that Knights as a whole are destined for irrelevance, it simply means that we have to take other issues into consideration.
The g/w build, and it is, simply put, weaker against Goblins and Merfolk. I don't want to slaughter the whole concept of the deck, but Finn is right in that it needs some sort of disruption package. Enter blue, exit green. The deck becomes more controllish, offering disruption and draw without losing Exemplar's benefits.
Finn is right regarding disruption, no doubt about that. And you are also correct to say that Knights does not have to be irrelevant just because we don't run enough disruption. This is also part of the reason why I had tried Knights with all the various color combination - you could see that in the primer and [Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy.
As you have already concluded the G/W Knights build is weaker than Goblins and Merfolks, honesty I'm not going to dispute that. Goblins simply have better creatures, speed and synergy, while Merfolks has more lords while it is also blue, which is the strongest color in Legacy - I think this are facts which we already know or are aware of.
Something which I'm not sure if most Knight players has done before, but personally I have actually tested many games against Tier One Goblins and Merfolks before with G/W Knights, and we actually have a positive matchup against Goblins (we used to have a positive matchup against Merfolk too, but Master of the Pearl Trident changed that). That said, even though we may win our games against Goblins, it is a better legacy deck than Knights since it can win much faster because they have more explosive power than us.
After all that is said, at the moment I felt we don't really need to compare Knights with Goblins or Merfolks. They are a "Race" type while we are a "Class" Type, that goes some way in deciding the amount of cards and support for them from a design perspective. They are in the Established and Proven column, while we are in Developing. That says a lot about the power level and competitiveness here. I'm not trying to put down Knights here, we are just being realistic about the power level here, and like AEIOUsometimesY mentioned there is no delusions of grandeur here. You also put out your opinion on the emotional aspects of playing something we like and the desire to make it as competitive as possible - which I agree totally. For me, I still like playing Knights - and no one is stopping me!!!:D
1.0 Knight creatures
As there is only U knights or UW knights provided by this set, the knights here are almost irrelevant to Legacy Knights since Knights with a U splash are not a strong color and thus suffers even worse from comparison with tribes such as Merfolk and Faeries.
Hussar Patrol
Flash is definitely good here as it can mess up combat calculations while it also has a toughness of >3. It can comes in EOT to deal the last points of damage next turn (if opponent is down to 2 life however remote it is). Vigilance while not gamebreaking is also useful.
Unfortunately at 4 CMC, Hero of Bladehold,Phyrexian Metamorph, Kinsbaile Cavalier, Wilt-leaf Liege, Elspeth, Knight Errant are all better then him.
Isperia's Skywatch
This is not good enough in Standard. I didnt even pick this Knight in my limited deck during pre-release. 3/3 flyer for 6 CMC and a detain ability, I'm not sure if I would even play him if he had an temporary exile ability so to speak.
Lyev Skyknight
This knight might be playable, I felt it does seems to have a place in a UW Knight tempo build. A 3/1 flyer for 3cc is not impressive stats but it might function effectively or fulfill its role if it is placed in the right deck and strategy, something to KIV, as its not exciting enough to want to make me build a deck straightaway.
2.0 Non-Knight creatures
It would be easy to leave out some creatures here, but these 2 comes to mind here and could slot straight into existing knight decks.
Dryad Militant
At the moment, the 1CC creature slot is dominated by Student of Warfare and Mother of Runes. This creature is at best sideboard fodder against Dredge or Reanimator, it should stay in the sideboard unless the meta becomes totally swarmed by them.
Judge's Familiar
Will work well in the UW tempo Knights build - if there is one. Pretty much a flying cursecatcher, has a place here due to its "correct" casting cost more than anything.
3.0 Spells for Knight
Knightly Valor & Security Blockade
Still cannot see enchantment auras working here, although it offers a 2 for 1. Simply not fantastic enough in terms of ability or cheap enough in terms of casting cost. I like Knight tokens though ;).
Selesnya Charm
Charms as always with 3 different abilities offers some kind of utility, although at the expense of underpowerness in what it specifically does. That said, all 3 options provided by Selesnya Charm has good relevance in a typical knight deck, so should be considered as a possible maindeck card.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Don't these perform completely different functions?
I agree that Rest in Peace seems pretty decent, but I still need to see whether it's better than some combination of Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus. It's probably more comparable to Wheel of Sun and Moon than anything else. I also attempt to play around with my graveyard through Mistveil Plains/Emeria/SoLS, so I worry about losing that interaction with Rest in Peace. If you play an Enlightened Tutor package like many of the D&T lists, you could probably afford to run 1 copy of each in the board for the sake of diversity.
Sundering Growth was really the only card from [RTR] that immediately jumped out at me. In mono-W lists it seems better than Disenchant, for the small chance that you can copy a Soldier or Spirit token or something. In GW, you're still better off with Qasali Pridemage, Nature's Claim or Krosan Grip.
God, I must've been half asleep when I wrote that. I meant Tormod's Crypt. My bad.
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the White Orchid
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Knight Exemplar
2 Kinsbaile Cavalier
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Temple Garden (Can't afford Windswepth Heath)
2 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Sejiri Steppe
1 Gavony Township
1 Lotus Vale
1 Yavimaya Hollow
2 Forest
Almost 90% of the deck are identical to majority of GW Legacy Knights decks out there, the difference being Kinsbaile Cavalier and variation of Lands. Do note that this deck is limited by budget, I'm just not going to shell out $100 for one Wasteland or any vintage dual lands.
Any critiques for improvements are welcome.
Looks like a pretty standard Legacy Knights list to me -- should be pretty solid. If Wasteland is out of your price range (you would probably only need one copy in the deck anyway), what about running 1x Ghost Quarter or 1x Tectonic Edge? It's nice to have some kind of land destruction that you can tutor up with Knight of the Reliquary. I assume Lotus Vale is there to boost KotR, too? My only worry is that it's going to have a huge bullseye on it for opposing Wastelands, which will set you back bigtime. I might just throw some other utility land in its place, like Treetop Village or Mistveil Plains or something of that nature. You'll also have to let us know how the Cavaliers go...I typically prefer Mirran Crusader here (easier with Vial, too), but if you find you have a decent number of creatures out, this does basically end the game for you. Looks good!
Yup, I don't know why I completely missed it out even after discussing about it in earlier posts, anyway thanks for pointing it out, I'll add it into the primer in the next round of updates.
I figured it out as much lolz :rolleyes:.
I also saw Sundering Growth as a potential card initally, however like you pointed out, Qasali Pridemage and Krosan Grip are better for GW Knights since Pridemage has the exalted mechanic, interacts with Aether Vial and provide an additional body for beatdown. Krosan Grip's split second mechanic is also useful especially against blue based decks or when targeted at Sensei'a Divining Top.
Good advice as usual from AEIOUsometimesY. I would suggest Stirring Wildwood as well, although it costs more to activate compared to Treetop Village, it gives us Reach against flyers which is lacking in Knights. And yeah, playing a Lotus Vale is scary stuff when Wasteland is prevalent in so many legacy decks :o.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
4 Knight of the White Orchid
3 Knight of the Holy Nimbus
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Kinsbaile Cavalier
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Spells
4 Aether Vial
3 Worldly Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Day of Judgment
Lands
4 Temple Garden
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Sunpetal Grove
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Gavony Township
8 Plains
2 Forest
Other than a couple of card choices (and the mana base), I realize that this is a fairly standard GW knights deck, but I thought I'd at least bring some of these up for discussion.
First off, you'll notice the exclusion of Student of Warfare. I just find that it tends to be really underwhelming. For the most part it sits there being a 1/1 knight, and the times that I do pump it it always seems like it gets hit by a Bolt or StP in response, and then it's ruined my tempo.
This is basically replaced with Knight of the Holy Nimbus. Maybe it's the meta that I play with or something, but this card almost always ends up being awesome. It's spectacular against aggro; it essentially makes non-white kill spells cost 2 more, and very few aggro decks are keeping 2 mana available to kill it. I go back and forth between this and Knight of Meadowgrain in the 2-slot, because KoM can help survive against pure aggro decks until DoJ.
The second strange inclusion, I'm sure, is Worldly Tutor. Yes, I know it's technically card disadvantage, but getting Knight Exemplar (or, ideally, two) out is so fundamentally important to the function of this deck that I think it's worth the hit. It can also search for Phyrexian Metamorph, which is your toolbox card.
Lastly, Day of Judgment - mostly I love its interaction with Knight Exemplar and Knight of the Holy Nimbus, but this is pretty much a must card for dealing with certain decks, and I'll probably put two in the board once I get a handle on this main deck.
Thoughts?
Guys, I'm quite new to Magic. This is my first genuine effort to build a competitive deck. Fairly simply.
Would definitely appreciate feedback.
(Edit: This is my current thoughts)
19 Plains
4 Cavern of souls
// Creatures
4 Accorder Paladin
4 Hero of Bladehold
2 Kinsbaile Cavalier
4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Leonin skyhunter
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Day of Judgement
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
(This is what I started with)
24 Plains
// Creatures
4 Accorder Paladin
4 Hero of Bladehold
4 Kinsbaile Cavalier
4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Leonin skyhunter
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Day of Judgement
4 Honor of the pure
StP/PtE for some removal.
A few oblivion rings for artifact/enchantment/planeswalker removal?
Any aggro deck that wants to be competitive in Legacy needs some elements of disruption. Goblins uses mana denial via Wasteland and Rishadan Port, and some lists plays Thalia. Death and Taxes uses the same stuff plus Thalia and Mangara. Threshold/Delver and Merfolk use the standard blue suite (Force of Will, Spell Pierce, Stifle, etc). Black-based aggro has access to discard such as Inquisition, Thoughtseize, Hymn, etc.
Competitive aggro in Legacy also needs some kind of late-game - some way to generate card advantage later in the game (like Goblins with Ringleaders, Maverick with Knight), OR it needs to be blazingly fast and disruptive early in the game (like Delver/Thresh, Elves, Merfolk, or Affinity).
Mono white knights is simply nothing more than a casual deck and casual idea in Legacy.
Is there some reason to be tied to the "Knight" creature type?
Goblins plays tons of "Goblin" creatures because it actually is meaningful to powerful cards such as Goblin Matron and Goblin Ringleader. Merfolk plays "Merfolk" creatures because they have 12+ lords like Lord of Atlantis and Merrow Reejery that pump the "Merfolk" creature type. Soldiers plays the "Soldier" creature type because they can put them into play with Preeminent Captain and draw them with Enlistment Officer and pump them with lords.
I don't see anything like that with the "Knight" creature type other than its interaction with Cavern. And if the only reason this deck plays tons of "Knight" creatures is because of Cavern and/or because Knights are cool... then it's simply a substandard deck that should be strictly casual.
Ok, there's basically one lord: Knight Exemplar. One 2/2 three mana lord does not make it worthwhile to be tied to more inefficient creatures, in my opinion. I'd rather play more of the efficient guys that Maverick and DnT play than hope I draw one of four cards in a deck that gives my other creatures +1/+1 and indestructibility.
If you want to play Aether Vial and mono-white guys and equipment, why not just play Death and Taxes, which has more disruption elements and better creatures? And if you want to run Knight of the Reliquary, why not just play Maverick, which has better creatures to support it? I don't see any reason to play this deck over either Death and Taxes or Maverick other than if you like Knights as a real-world flavor concept and in that case you are basically choosing this as a casual deck.
Ignore the troll. Exemplar+Cavern is strong enough for this deck. I would drop Lightning Greaves and Honor the Pure and add in Thalia. Even if she's not a Knight, she's really going to help out your bad MU's.
It's an updated version of Brawl into an epic, new game.
Not the most orthodox post to drum up interest in Legacy Knights :rolleyes:.
You could just post this same message (minus the newly added portion about Knight Exemplar) into almost every other thread here.
If enough people takes issue with the word "competitive" in the title I have no issues over removing it.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I'm not speaking for all of us here, because... well, I obviously can't. What I'm going to put forth is my opinion and others may share a different one.
First off, there are really two lords. The first, as you mentioned, is Knight Exemplar, but the second is actually Kinsbaile Cavalier. These two Lords, in my opinion, are two of the best lords in the game, as they are both offer extraordinarily potent abilities in Indestructible and Double Strike. The Exemplar, on his own, is enough to warrant building a deck around; if you've ever played against someone with two of those in play at once, you'd understand.
Secondly, there's the issue of feeling like we're doing out own thing, and that most of the time, it works. Many of us have an emotional attachment to the concepts of making Knights work because a) for one reason or another it's our favorite tribe flavor-wise, or b) because we started out on this when Exemplar was in standard, moved into Modern/Legacy when he rotated out, and have been trying to make it work (with differing degrees of success) ever since. For me, it feels like a cohesive deck rather than a random collection of powerful cards in a certain color. Perhaps that makes me more of a casual player, but I'm okay with that; not all of us are going to PTQs, but we do want a deck that will at least be competitive with most of the good ones (this is).
The deck needs disruption, plain and simple. Knights, as a tribe simply do not provide enough of an incentive to restrict your creature selection. In the long run, the deck is destined for casual until stronger Knights get printed.
illusionsdelusions of grandeur when it comes to playing Knights. I am fully aware that it will never be Tier 1-2 without better Knights printed, but that doesn't stop me from working with what I have.However, it's worth noting that many Knight decks do play some combination of Mother of Runes, Stoneforge Mystic, Thalia, and Qasali Pridemage (off the top of my head)...making it appear similar to Maverick and D&T lists, but playing a little more Aggro-ish. You can easily tailor a "Knight" deck to perform similarly to either of those archetypes if desired. They are primarily called Knight decks because they typically feature ~12-16 Knight creatures, including Student of Warfare, Knight of the White Orchid, Knight of Meadowgrain, Knight Exemplar, Knight of the Reliquary, Silverblade Paladin, and Mirran Crusader. Contrary to some lists in this thread (where all lists, both casual and more competitive-oriented, are featured), you don't have to jam ~25-30 Knights in a deck and call it a day. I'm sorry that not one, but two threads dedicated to Knights got you so upset :-/.
Even if he is correct, perhaps it's the elitest nature and timing of his post which irks people off. At least that's how I look at it. This is the not proven or established forum so cut some slack here.
Any further feedback would be greatly appreciated.
I wonder what people's thoughts are relating to Leonin Skyhunter. I appreciate this isn't the strongest card, but it adds flying. Would other people go with four of these, or perhaps I should replace two of these with path to exile?
I like Day of Judgement in this deck, as if I can get out Exemplar, I can wipe the board of creatures while keeping mine out there, but perhaps replacing one or two with Path to Exile might be a better idea?
Thanks again guys and I didn't take MTG-Fan's comments as trolling!
I personally like Leonin Skyhunter and consider him borderline playable, but it really depends on what the other people you play against are playing.
In general, what you play really depends on what the other players in your group are playing and what role you want the card to play. I generally find myself fighting a lot of aggro decks, which is why I use Knight of the Holy Nimbus; it can really cause problems for decks that rely on destruction/damage effects to control the board. If you are needing the evasion, then Skyhunter is a good card, but I would ask you this - when you have one in play, are you happy what you were able to do with that two mana, and/or can you use it more efficiently? We can't really answer that question - again, it depends on your meta - but it's a consideration you need to make.
The g/w build, and it is, simply put, weaker against Goblins and Merfolk. I don't want to slaughter the whole concept of the deck, but Finn is right in that it needs some sort of disruption package. Enter blue, exit green. The deck becomes more controllish, offering disruption and draw without losing Exemplar's benefits.
4 Knight of the White Orchid
3 Court Hussar
2 Lyev Skyknight
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
Planeswalker
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Venser, the Sojourner
1 Gideon Jura
3 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Supreme Verdict
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Detention Sphere
Lands
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Seachrome Coast
10 Plains
Now the deck plays worse creatures with a much higher mana curve and isn't even taking advantage of running Brainstorm, or blue for that matter (Force of Will/Jace 2.0). This will likely make it even worse against Merfolk and Goblins. Gideon and Venser also don't do enough in Legacy, and I think you'll find yourself doing nothing more often than not for the first few turns. The deck really doesn't need to do anything fancy, and I think some folks are making it more complicated than it needs to be -- the deck plays better as an aggroish deck focusing on its creature suite's ability to perform well in combat rather than trying to play expensive Sorcery-speed spells. I like to play monowhite for the mana consistency, and because White does have the available tools to combat most decks. If splashing a second color, a Green splash is really going to be the best option for the reasons that Maverick works as a deck (more toolbox options, more hatebears, etc). If you're going to change the deck around to do something Knights can't really do, then you really are just better off playing Maverick or D&T.
First off, how does one take advantage of Brainstorm other than cast it?
I admittedly don't play a ton of legacy, and I know that my playgroup tends to pick more casual stuff than I do, but it seems to me that the point of an aggro deck is to get those beaters out and punch face more quickly than your opponent. Knights just has a tougher time doing that against the better decks in the format.
You really only play Brainstorm if you can reliably shuffle away the 2 cards you place on top of your library or if you need to dig for answers/hide cards in response to something. Without fetchlands, other search/shuffle effects, or a significant number of instants worth digging for, you just aren't getting your mileage out of casting Brainstorm. It's a few years old now, but this is still a pretty decent article that covers the intricacies of casting Brainstorm.
Finn is right regarding disruption, no doubt about that. And you are also correct to say that Knights does not have to be irrelevant just because we don't run enough disruption. This is also part of the reason why I had tried Knights with all the various color combination - you could see that in the primer and [Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy.
As you have already concluded the G/W Knights build is weaker than Goblins and Merfolks, honesty I'm not going to dispute that. Goblins simply have better creatures, speed and synergy, while Merfolks has more lords while it is also blue, which is the strongest color in Legacy - I think this are facts which we already know or are aware of.
Something which I'm not sure if most Knight players has done before, but personally I have actually tested many games against Tier One Goblins and Merfolks before with G/W Knights, and we actually have a positive matchup against Goblins (we used to have a positive matchup against Merfolk too, but Master of the Pearl Trident changed that). That said, even though we may win our games against Goblins, it is a better legacy deck than Knights since it can win much faster because they have more explosive power than us.
After all that is said, at the moment I felt we don't really need to compare Knights with Goblins or Merfolks. They are a "Race" type while we are a "Class" Type, that goes some way in deciding the amount of cards and support for them from a design perspective. They are in the Established and Proven column, while we are in Developing. That says a lot about the power level and competitiveness here. I'm not trying to put down Knights here, we are just being realistic about the power level here, and like AEIOUsometimesY mentioned there is no delusions of grandeur here. You also put out your opinion on the emotional aspects of playing something we like and the desire to make it as competitive as possible - which I agree totally. For me, I still like playing Knights - and no one is stopping me!!!:D
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W