Can we get some Pox math going? Trying to learn the best times to Pox
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Legacy:
Pox (BG Chalice Depths and Rack Pox)
Soldier Stompy
EDH:
Darien, King of Kjeldor Soldier Tribal EDH
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Zombie tribal EDH
Sigarda, Host of Herons enchantress French EDH
Griselbrand monoblack control French EDH
I have just built this deck, so haven't gotten a chance to try it out in a tournament yet, but has anyone considered a 1-of Malicious Affliction? I think activating the morbid should be pretty easy, and we can easily deal with the BB mana-cost. Seems better than murderous cut to me.
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Cubing in Oslo, Norway --- contact me if you want to join in!
Can we get some Pox math going? Trying to learn the best times to Pox
If you have stuff in a multiple of three, and your opponent does not, it's a good time to Pox.
Example vs. RUG Delver:
On the play, you open with Thoughtseize and go to 18 life. Your opponent opens with Island + a Delver of Secrets. Turn two you Sinkhole his Island and he plays a fetch, dropping to 19. He hits you with delver for either 1 or 3.
If you took one damage from delver, and your life is at 17, you will take 6 damage from Pox, bringing you to 11. If you took 3, you will take 5 damage from Pox, bringing you to 10 (so in a way you are minimizing the impact of a flipped delver, and killing it at the same time). Your opponent, at 19 life, will take 7, because the rounded number is 21. If your opponent had used Gitaxian Probe on turns 1-2, he's taking 6 damage down from 17. So you're looking at your 10-11 life to his 11-12, and you've also hopefully discarded a Nether Spirit, Bloodghast or Raven's Crime to your own Pox, giving you something to do next turn. Your cantripping opponent has also discarded more cards than you, and they don't have recursion.
Can we get some Pox math going? Trying to learn the best times to Pox
Forget the math: against creature decks play pox when they have 1 or 2 creatures. Against other decks you should generally pox as early as possible.
There's obviously more to it than that, but that's the general plan. It's pretty fun watching the opponent struggle with the math for a minute or two.
You do not need barren moor... It's mainly used for loam interaction. Entering tapped is a big drawback in a competitive format. I don't like main deck bojuka bog for the same reason. Plus they get hit by wasteland.
Black mana is pretty important. With one big pox you will need at least 16 black mana sources (you have 14 currently).
You can try murderous cut and see if you like it. I prefer spinning darkness or disfigure because they are a lot less costly.
I agree with cutting sinkhole; it doesn't do enough to help us win.
I have just built this deck, so haven't gotten a chance to try it out in a tournament yet, but has anyone considered a 1-of Malicious Affliction? I think activating the morbid should be pretty easy, and we can easily deal with the BB mana-cost. Seems better than murderous cut to me.
Not hitting black creatures is a problem. Getting the morbid trigger AND having double black mana is probably harder than you think. Murderous cut probably isn't the best thing we could be running either.
Let us know how it goes!
Hey folks, I've had a bunch of success with my Rack pox list so I thought I'd share. I run it with Bottomless Pits in place of Liliana of the Veil because I'm dumb. Detailed explanations of card choices are given here. I'm currently testing 3x Bloodghast, 2x Tombstalker as my creature-base over 4x Bloodghast, 1x Nether Spirit.
Also, Jin15 got this deck figured out back in 2012. I think it's important to see his posts. My only criticism of his lists is that Mishra's Factory is bad for the deck. I prefer Spawning Pool.
Can we get some Pox math going? Trying to learn the best times to Pox
This is a very important thing to know as a Pox player. The optimal time to Pox is given in this order:
(n % 3) = 1 (best case)
(n % 3) = 2 (okay case)
(n % 3) = 0 (worst case)
For those unfamiliar with modular arithmetic (you use it to tell the time), ( n % 3 ) is equal to the remainder of n/3. The reason why ( n % 3 ) = 1 is the best case can be exemplified by the case of an opponent having n = 4 lands, you having m = 3. You cast big Pox and then they sac 2 lands, you sac 1. They lost 2 lands, you lost 1, both players are now at 2 lands.
This shouldn't hold you down too much, but it's important to keep in mind when playing Pox. It's often difficult to balance since Pox hits life, hand, creatures, and land, so keep all aspects in mind.
For the sake of completeness, ( n % k ), read n mod k , is the remainder of n/k. It's a super useful operation in programming, computer science, and mathematics (group theory!). And I guess Magic too When we tell time, we do arithmetic modulo 12, but for some reason we say 0 is 12. So on the 15th hour, 15 % 12 = 3:00 PM.
Hi Rav
Good to see you're having success with it; do you get to play pox on a regular basis?
I tested jin15's list and I'm convinced that rituals are no good. Opinions definitely are strong on both sides of that debate though
I only board them in against aggro when I need to get some 3 or 4 drops out there fast.
I'm really curious about why you're running spanning pool over factory. In what situations is it better and how does it improve the deck?
R1 vs Miracles
The first game took a long time but I eventually got there with immeasurable help from my SDT throughout the game. G2 went to time... I had him at 2 life with me at 10.
R2 vs G/R Lands
With my list this match is unwinnable. To beat lands we need extirpate or surgical extraction.
R3 vs mono-red Goblin Stompy
I had poor draws and got locked out by chalice G1 and I think a magus of the moon G2 if I recall correctly. So luck was on his side but I would speculate pox is not favored in this matchup.
R4 vs UR Delver
Luck was not on my side again. G1 I got flooded with discard spells and G2 I got completely mana flooded. He was running dig through time, which may even be worse than treasure cruise for us.
Disfigure could have turned around some of the games I lost if I had drawn it.
Not too happy with a 1-3 finish but the cards just didn't cooperate for me. I'm going to put this deck back on the shelf for a while... Maybe eventually we'll get some new toys from Wizards.
Small legacy tournament with 12 people. It was a swiss with cut to Top 4.
Round 1: Death and Taxes
Game 1 - I thoughtseize the thalia in his opening hand. He plays revoker and names LED. My turn I cast smallpox. He doesn't draw any more creatures other than a serra avenger and I ride the rack to victory as raven's crime takes out remaining cards.
Game 2 - I lead with hymn and liliana and put the rack into play on turns 2,3, and 4. Brimaz, King of Oreskos manages to sneak his way onto the table and kills both me and liliana.
Game 3 - I kill the second turn stoneforge fetching batterskull. I play the rack and shrieking affliction while removing thalia and mirrian crusader. I cast iok and he responds with enlightened tutor fetching sword of fire and ice. I grab the swords to plowshares and raven's crime the batterskull in his hand. I follow up with innocent blood and remove his revoker (naming liliana). My topdecked iok grabs the swords. He lands the serra avenger. I play tombstalker, removing my gy, including the raven's crime. He exiles the demon. The angel beats me down while I cast E. plague (naming humans). His thalias are stuck in hand as I cast raven's crime over and over. I finally draw innocent blood and remove the angel. He plays flickerwisp and beats me down again, but a topdecked pox closes the game as the rack/affliction go the distance.
Round 2: Death and Taxes (Again!)
Game 1 - I open with iok and discard thalia. He plays revoker naming liliana. I funeral charm the revoker and cast liliana. We proceed to trade creatures and removal while I cast the rack and shrieking affliction. I land a tombstalker. A stoneforge grabs batterskull, which he hardcasts. I kill the germ with tombstalker and the flickerwisp dies to liliana. The tombstalker chumps for liliana. When he returns the batterskull and recasts the equipment, I bounce. I cast pox, which removes the germ token and both lands. My followup affliction forces him to concede.
Game 2 - My opening hand is 2x swamp, 2x hymn, 2x massacre, and a tombstalker. I draw a liliana and a swamp on the following turns. Opening hands don't better than this. My opponent leads with aether vial. His first three land drops are wasteland, wasteland, and port, making me very worried that my massacres would be useless. I cast double hymn, hitting all his creatures. I play shrieking affliction, which slowly withers him away. He finally plays a plans and a thalia. I sigh with relief that he has a plains and cast liliana to kill thalia. When I activate liliana's plus one, Wilt-Leaf Liege comes out. I play smallpox and he vials a serra avenger to protect his liege. He also sacs a wasteland to smallpox. Gleefully, I cast double massacre to kill the liege. Shrieking affliction does him in.
Round 3: BUG Delver
Game 1 - I kill three deathrite shamans while he draws spells with ponder and brainstorm. I can't remove the 'Goyf that beats me down because he keeps countering my spells. I lose.
Game 2: I innocent blood his shamans again and hit him with hymn. Hymn removes the two 'goyfs in his hand. My discard, smallpox, and liliana wither his board and hand to nothing as a shrieking affliction eats at him. He concedes when I cast tombstalker.
Game 3: He gets out an early shaman. I aim funeral charm and raven's crime at his hand. He casts a 'goyf and beats me for 4 with it. I cast pox. He spellpierces it. I cast pox again on my next turn. He sacs the shaman and plays another shaman. I'm down to 5 now and I have my third pox, raven's crime and a smallpox. He has one land and his two creatures. I cast the pox. He deliberates, wondering if he should sac his 4/5 'goyf or his shaman. If he sacs the 'goyf, I can cast smallpox and he'll be left with an empty board. At the last second, he changes his mind and sacs the shaman. 'Goyf hits me for 4 and I'm left at 1. I smallpox myself out.
Round 4: BIG MISTAKE
At this point, I'm at 2-1. This the last round. My opponent is on high tide. I could probably beat him and get into Top 4. However, I decide to draw with him in the hopes that we both get into Top 4. There's a 1/3 chance I'll play him in the Top 4 and I want to stack the odds in my favor.
The math plays out so that the only way we don't get into Top 4 is if the top guy loses his match and the guy who is paired up wins his match. Very unlikely.
And so it happens.
So I don't get Top 4.
Conclusion: I could have secured a top 4 by beating my last round opponent, but I got greedy and decided to shoot for an opportunity to rig the top 4 in my favor. Of course, if I played out round 4 that would have depended on me beating the high tide player. In theory, its a good match-up but I've never played against high tide before and the other guy seemed very experienced with the high tide deck. Hindsight is 20/20 though. I was happy to beat both death and tax players as the match-up always felt difficult to me. Experience really seems to pay off in the match-up. Man, I really wanted that Top 4
Nice tournament report!! Interesting that you beat up on Death and Taxes but lost to Delver. I have problems with Death and Taxes but always beat Delver. I run a different build though.
I must say that Rack Pox decks are underrated. I've always done fairly descent. Delver is an auto win. I don't even sideboard. Storm combo can be a problem, Burn gives me trouble and fast aggro decks like Goblins. Show and Tell is a 50/50. Here's my tested build. Yes I run Confidant. Rarely does he die to my Smallpox. The card advantage created when you make your opponent discard their hand yet you get to draw two cards a turn is hard for your opponent to come back from. The idea is to play out your hand first then drop Confidant when you and your opponent are in top deck mode. I have played Pox more than any other deck in recent tournaments and disagree with the several Pox primers I've read that he shouldn't be a staple 4 of.
Nice tournament report!! Interesting that you beat up on Death and Taxes but lost to Delver. I have problems with Death and Taxes but always beat Delver. I run a different build though.
I must say that Rack Pox decks are underrated. I've always done fairly descent. Delver is an auto win. I don't even sideboard. Storm combo can be a problem, Burn gives me trouble and fast aggro decks like Goblins. Show and Tell is a 50/50. Here's my tested build. Yes I run Confidant. Rarely does he die to my Smallpox. The card advantage created when you make your opponent discard their hand yet you get to draw two cards a turn is hard for your opponent to come back from. The idea is to play out your hand first then drop Confidant when you and your opponent are in top deck mode. I have played Pox more than any other deck in recent tournaments and disagree with the several Pox primers I've read that he shouldn't be a staple 4 of.
@Darth bunny
Thanks for posting. Bummer on the results though. High tide actually can be difficult because they have plenty of counters and cantrips.
I love the reanimate tech.
@Laser brains
Looks like a decent enough list. I would love to hear some tournament reports if it does as well as you say. If I had a list that always beat delver I would play it more often.
The simple truth is that sometimes they can counter our key spells and use cantrips to provide superior card quality over a long game... This is even worse in lists running inherent card disadvantage via dark ritual. Your use of Bob to negate this effect is intriguing.
Round 4: BIG MISTAKE
At this point, I'm at 2-1. This the last round. My opponent is on high tide. I could probably beat him and get into Top 4. However, I decide to draw with him in the hopes that we both get into Top 4. There's a 1/3 chance I'll play him in the Top 4 and I want to stack the odds in my favor.
The math plays out so that the only way we don't get into Top 4 is if the top guy loses his match and the guy who is paired up wins his match. Very unlikely.
And so it happens.
So I don't get Top 4.
Conclusion: I could have secured a top 4 by beating my last round opponent, but I got greedy and decided to shoot for an opportunity to rig the top 4 in my favor. Of course, if I played out round 4 that would have depended on me beating the high tide player. In theory, its a good match-up but I've never played against high tide before and the other guy seemed very experienced with the high tide deck. Hindsight is 20/20 though. I was happy to beat both death and tax players as the match-up always felt difficult to me. Experience really seems to pay off in the match-up. Man, I really wanted that Top 4
I was your opponent at the end there. I really feel bad about how that played out. Live and learn, I suppose.
All that aside, it was pretty impressive watching your list cut through the competition. I hadn't seen a list packing big pox in years and it was interesting watching people try to re-acclimate to "pox math" when playing against you.
EDIT: Regarding the match-up, I think you probably were favoured. My appraisal of the match is that I'd be hoping to win the die roll and be able to combo you out early after tempo-ing you with remand (I was on Solidarity, not Spiral Tide). Land destruction is super rough for High Tide-based combo, and Solidarity is much more vulnerable to discard than Spiral Tide (since spiral tide is much better suited to winning off of 1 or 2 cards in hand).
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
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ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
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ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
@Dromar
Thank you, and thank god Treasure Cruise is banned, Rack Pox was pointless in that meta. If you haven't already, give Confidant a shot. He's won me more games than I can count. You might be interested in a couple other tested non-Rack pox lists I run him in.
This list wrecks Delver. There is so much removal that decks like Canadian Threshold cannot keep up. Plus 14 ways to kill Abyssal Persecutor.
This next list I've only played once but also very competitive. It splashes white for Stoneforge Mystic and Lingering Souls. Mystic is great to sac to Smallpox and Therapy after you've already grabbed your Batterskull. I haven't been placing top 8 with these two decks but not too far behind. The Legacy meta at Knightware in Los Angeles is insane. Huge turn outs. Loads of Delver variants, Death and Taxes, Jund, Show and Tell etc...
Thanks. It used to be maindeck and I had so I could steal an extra win condition from delver ('goyf or young pyromancer), turn the tables on reanimator or dredge, and to cheat my tombstalker in play against combo. Pox into reanimate on tombstalker is risky against storm decks, but it can pay off because its a clock they won't be expecting so early.
Nice tournament report!! Interesting that you beat up on Death and Taxes but lost to Delver. I have problems with Death and Taxes but always beat Delver. I run a different build though.
I actually struggled with D&T for quite a while. That last tournament was the best I've done against D&T so far. Like I said, I think a lot of it comes down to practice and experience.
I actually did very well against Delver before Khans block. I beat about six delver decks in a nine round tournament one time. One of the biggest draws to playing pox is that the delver match is typically very solid.
I was your opponent at the end there. I really feel bad about how that played out. Live and learn, I suppose. Frown
All that aside, it was pretty impressive watching your list cut through the competition. I hadn't seen a list packing big pox in years and it was interesting watching people try to re-acclimate to "pox math" when playing against you.
EDIT: Regarding the match-up, I think you probably were favoured. My appraisal of the match is that I'd be hoping to win the die roll and be able to combo you out early after tempo-ing you with remand (I was on Solidarity, not Spiral Tide). Land destruction is super rough for High Tide-based combo, and Solidarity is much more vulnerable to discard than Spiral Tide (since spiral tide is much better suited to winning off of 1 or 2 cards in hand).
Thanks! Yeah missing out on Top 4 sucks, but I'm happy to know my deck can still win games after TC left the format. I built this when goblins was the deck to beat and I've been tweaking it ever since.
I'm taking this in next week, played a slightly different version last week, going 2-1-1 (win against Prison Pox and High Tides, draw to Zoo, and loss to Shardless). I really enjoy this more aggressive version of Pox, versus the Prison style I played before.
I think Filth will be more useful overall than Nether Spirit, considering Urborg's interaction and the gaggle of Bloodghasts. One of the problems I anticipate is burn, but I'm going to go with three Smother to handle an Infect deck that's been winning at the shop I go to, versus more Spinning Darkness. The Ratchet Bombs are for Needles, and the Tombstalkers are to speed up my clock versus Shardless.
Intriguing. I really like this list Takingfawn. Very original. I see Entomb can fetch you Bloodghast, Raven's Crime and Filth. 4 Urborg make Filth worth it! Let me know how this works out for you. I'm not a big fan of Pox main, I usually run at least one sweeper like Toxic Deluge and I always run Dark Confidant even if other Pox builds don't run him. He's nice to drop either after you've dumped your opponents hand and have them in top deck mode or after you already have a Bloodghast in play so that when you play Smallpox you don't kill him. So hard for your opponent to recover when you're drawing two cards a turn and your opponent is in top deck mode.
Aggro lists with Cabal Therapy and Abyssal Persecutor are gnarly!! The following list from Adam Goldfinger took 4th place out of 59 players at Knightware in Los Angeles. My build includes more land. It is solid! Possibly incorporate a Rack version of this with your Pox slots could be awesome. The list you have posted looks amazing though. Definitely keep us posted on some of the match ups if you can. Nice work!
@Laser Brains
Whoa there friend, this thread is for rack pox. Aggro pox variants are as different as control variants from the sorts of builds we are here to discuss. Talkingfawn's list for instance is very similar to the one in the primer.
No offense, I'm sure your aggro builds are fun, but the strategy is fundamentally different from ours.
@Talkingfawn
You can play filth instead of nether spirit although you may find yourself missing the blocker in some games.
I think boarding in ratchet bomb to fight needle is the wrong move. Liliana will either activate a few times for value before the needle or if they play needle first we just discard her to a pox effect... Either way we likely gained card advantage. She is not so key to our victory that we need to go overboard to protect her (and the reason it isn't necessary to run more than 3).
If you have the cards I do highly recommend SDT and fetchlands to help filter draws and keep bloodghast in play.
Burn isn't a huge problem since they are still weak to our disruption and we have a reasonable clock. My record is favorable. Don't be afraid to use big pox because the land destruction is worth it. The games I lose are when I don't draw win-cons.
Laser Brains, I like DC too but as it is I'm working on this version right now. Thanks though!
Dromar, I went and got two SDT and four Bloodstained Mire. Turns out that, yes, they and Entomb are very useful in conjunction with the SDT, allowing for finding that key card. Also I decided you're right about overkill with the Ratchet Bombs versus Lily, so I switched the sideboard a bit and have actually taken her out for a few games, when anticipating Needles. Twice I got people to name her, to no avail I did maintain the 4 Bombs though, as there is a heavy presence of Tarmogoyfs, Deathrite Shamans, Kird Apes, Wild Nacatls, Glistener Elves, etc. at my shop.
In the main 60, I wanted to try 2 Racks and 2 Shrieking Affliction to lessen the vulnerability to dedicated artifact hate like Smash to Smithereens and Ancient Grudge. I know plenty of cards can take care of either of them, but I figure the off chance of catching someone with an anti-artifact card in their hand cause they saw The Rack last game, but having Affliction working them this game would be great.
Good to hear!
There is a lot of interaction with SDT, bloodghasts, fetches, dakmor salvage, and urborg that may not be immediately obvious but I think I covered most of it in the primer. Sometimes great plays will win games out of nowhere.
With 3 entomb and an aggro-heavy meta you could consider 1x vengeful pharaoh. It's not something I've tested but it's been on the radar. Useful to entomb during the opponent's combat phase.
Shrieking affliction is fine. I use the rack because it's better against miracles by taking down jace and I really hate losing to miracles. You're definitely right about artifact hate being more prevalent.
Myth realized is a cool idea. If you're going to splash white I'd run at least 1 flagstones of trokair, maybe instead of the 1x plains... It also has a nice interaction with bloodghast since you get landfall after smallpox or pox.
As far as build go it looks good but I wouldn't go without SDT. Humility would be great in the board.... Bloodghast can block!
Pox (BG Chalice Depths and Rack Pox)
Soldier Stompy
EDH:
Darien, King of Kjeldor Soldier Tribal EDH
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Zombie tribal EDH
Sigarda, Host of Herons enchantress French EDH
Griselbrand monoblack control French EDH
Modern:
G/W Enchanted Bogles
BGW Treefolk Tribal
Standard:
Villainous Wealth
1x Barren Moor
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Marsh Flats
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Mutavault
4x Swamp
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
Instant (1)
1x Murderous Cut
Sorcery (20)
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Innocent Blood
1x Pox
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
4x Thoughtseize
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x The Rack
Planeswalker (4)
4x Liliana of the Veil
4x Dark Ritual
2x Engineered Plague
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Pithing Needle
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Tormod's Crypt
Maybeboard (1)
1x Tombstalker
4x Bloodghast
1x Nether Spirit
If you have stuff in a multiple of three, and your opponent does not, it's a good time to Pox.
Example vs. RUG Delver:
On the play, you open with Thoughtseize and go to 18 life. Your opponent opens with Island + a Delver of Secrets. Turn two you Sinkhole his Island and he plays a fetch, dropping to 19. He hits you with delver for either 1 or 3.
If you took one damage from delver, and your life is at 17, you will take 6 damage from Pox, bringing you to 11. If you took 3, you will take 5 damage from Pox, bringing you to 10 (so in a way you are minimizing the impact of a flipped delver, and killing it at the same time). Your opponent, at 19 life, will take 7, because the rounded number is 21. If your opponent had used Gitaxian Probe on turns 1-2, he's taking 6 damage down from 17. So you're looking at your 10-11 life to his 11-12, and you've also hopefully discarded a Nether Spirit, Bloodghast or Raven's Crime to your own Pox, giving you something to do next turn. Your cantripping opponent has also discarded more cards than you, and they don't have recursion.
Forget the math: against creature decks play pox when they have 1 or 2 creatures. Against other decks you should generally pox as early as possible.
There's obviously more to it than that, but that's the general plan. It's pretty fun watching the opponent struggle with the math for a minute or two.
You do not need barren moor... It's mainly used for loam interaction. Entering tapped is a big drawback in a competitive format. I don't like main deck bojuka bog for the same reason. Plus they get hit by wasteland.
Black mana is pretty important. With one big pox you will need at least 16 black mana sources (you have 14 currently).
You can try murderous cut and see if you like it. I prefer spinning darkness or disfigure because they are a lot less costly.
I agree with cutting sinkhole; it doesn't do enough to help us win.
Not hitting black creatures is a problem. Getting the morbid trigger AND having double black mana is probably harder than you think. Murderous cut probably isn't the best thing we could be running either.
Let us know how it goes!
Peace
4x Pox
4x Smallpox
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Innocent Blood
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
[4 Instants]
4x Dark Ritual
[3 Enchantments]
3x Bottomless Pit
4x The Rack
2x Cursed Scroll
[5 Creatures]
4x Bloodghast
1x Nether Spirit
[22 Lands]
17x Swamp
3x Spawning Pool
2x Dakmor Salvage
4x Extirpate
3x Engineered Plague
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Dystopia
2x Null Rod
2x Powder Keg
Also, Jin15 got this deck figured out back in 2012. I think it's important to see his posts. My only criticism of his lists is that Mishra's Factory is bad for the deck. I prefer Spawning Pool.
3 Liliana of the Veil
[5 Creatures]
4 Bloodghast
1 Nether Spirit
[24 Spells]
4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 The Rack
2 Cursed Scroll
[22 Lands]
4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Dakmor Salvage
15 Swamp
1 Darkblast
2 Pithing Needle
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Syphon Life
3 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
This is a very important thing to know as a Pox player. The optimal time to Pox is given in this order:
(n % 3) = 1 (best case)
(n % 3) = 2 (okay case)
(n % 3) = 0 (worst case)
For those unfamiliar with modular arithmetic (you use it to tell the time), ( n % 3 ) is equal to the remainder of n/3. The reason why ( n % 3 ) = 1 is the best case can be exemplified by the case of an opponent having n = 4 lands, you having m = 3. You cast big Pox and then they sac 2 lands, you sac 1. They lost 2 lands, you lost 1, both players are now at 2 lands.
This shouldn't hold you down too much, but it's important to keep in mind when playing Pox. It's often difficult to balance since Pox hits life, hand, creatures, and land, so keep all aspects in mind.
For the sake of completeness, ( n % k ), read n mod k , is the remainder of n/k. It's a super useful operation in programming, computer science, and mathematics (group theory!). And I guess Magic too When we tell time, we do arithmetic modulo 12, but for some reason we say 0 is 12. So on the 15th hour, 15 % 12 = 3:00 PM.
Good to see you're having success with it; do you get to play pox on a regular basis?
I tested jin15's list and I'm convinced that rituals are no good. Opinions definitely are strong on both sides of that debate though
I only board them in against aggro when I need to get some 3 or 4 drops out there fast.
I'm really curious about why you're running spanning pool over factory. In what situations is it better and how does it improve the deck?
Peace
—Seal inscription
I played 4 rounds with my updated list sporting Disfigure over Innocent Blood. I also went from 3/1 Thoughtseize/IoK to a 2/2 split.
R1 vs Miracles
The first game took a long time but I eventually got there with immeasurable help from my SDT throughout the game. G2 went to time... I had him at 2 life with me at 10.
R2 vs G/R Lands
With my list this match is unwinnable. To beat lands we need extirpate or surgical extraction.
R3 vs mono-red Goblin Stompy
I had poor draws and got locked out by chalice G1 and I think a magus of the moon G2 if I recall correctly. So luck was on his side but I would speculate pox is not favored in this matchup.
R4 vs UR Delver
Luck was not on my side again. G1 I got flooded with discard spells and G2 I got completely mana flooded. He was running dig through time, which may even be worse than treasure cruise for us.
Disfigure could have turned around some of the games I lost if I had drawn it.
Not too happy with a 1-3 finish but the cards just didn't cooperate for me. I'm going to put this deck back on the shelf for a while... Maybe eventually we'll get some new toys from Wizards.
peace
3 Tombstalker
1 Nether Spirit
4 Shrieking Affliction
1 The Rack
4 Pox
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Funeral Charm
4 Innocent Blood
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Raven's Crime
3 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
3 Massacre
1 Reanimate
Small legacy tournament with 12 people. It was a swiss with cut to Top 4.
Round 1: Death and Taxes
Game 1 - I thoughtseize the thalia in his opening hand. He plays revoker and names LED. My turn I cast smallpox. He doesn't draw any more creatures other than a serra avenger and I ride the rack to victory as raven's crime takes out remaining cards.
SB - In: 1 Engineered Plague 3 Massacre Out: 4 Pox
Game 2 - I lead with hymn and liliana and put the rack into play on turns 2,3, and 4. Brimaz, King of Oreskos manages to sneak his way onto the table and kills both me and liliana.
Game 3 - I kill the second turn stoneforge fetching batterskull. I play the rack and shrieking affliction while removing thalia and mirrian crusader. I cast iok and he responds with enlightened tutor fetching sword of fire and ice. I grab the swords to plowshares and raven's crime the batterskull in his hand. I follow up with innocent blood and remove his revoker (naming liliana). My topdecked iok grabs the swords. He lands the serra avenger. I play tombstalker, removing my gy, including the raven's crime. He exiles the demon. The angel beats me down while I cast E. plague (naming humans). His thalias are stuck in hand as I cast raven's crime over and over. I finally draw innocent blood and remove the angel. He plays flickerwisp and beats me down again, but a topdecked pox closes the game as the rack/affliction go the distance.
Round 2: Death and Taxes (Again!)
Game 1 - I open with iok and discard thalia. He plays revoker naming liliana. I funeral charm the revoker and cast liliana. We proceed to trade creatures and removal while I cast the rack and shrieking affliction. I land a tombstalker. A stoneforge grabs batterskull, which he hardcasts. I kill the germ with tombstalker and the flickerwisp dies to liliana. The tombstalker chumps for liliana. When he returns the batterskull and recasts the equipment, I bounce. I cast pox, which removes the germ token and both lands. My followup affliction forces him to concede.
SB - In: 3 Massacre 1 Pithing Needle Out: 3 Pox 1 Raven's Crime
Game 2 - My opening hand is 2x swamp, 2x hymn, 2x massacre, and a tombstalker. I draw a liliana and a swamp on the following turns. Opening hands don't better than this. My opponent leads with aether vial. His first three land drops are wasteland, wasteland, and port, making me very worried that my massacres would be useless. I cast double hymn, hitting all his creatures. I play shrieking affliction, which slowly withers him away. He finally plays a plans and a thalia. I sigh with relief that he has a plains and cast liliana to kill thalia. When I activate liliana's plus one, Wilt-Leaf Liege comes out. I play smallpox and he vials a serra avenger to protect his liege. He also sacs a wasteland to smallpox. Gleefully, I cast double massacre to kill the liege. Shrieking affliction does him in.
Round 3: BUG Delver
Game 1 - I kill three deathrite shamans while he draws spells with ponder and brainstorm. I can't remove the 'Goyf that beats me down because he keeps countering my spells. I lose.
SB - In: 1 Reanimate Out: 1 The Rack
Game 2: I innocent blood his shamans again and hit him with hymn. Hymn removes the two 'goyfs in his hand. My discard, smallpox, and liliana wither his board and hand to nothing as a shrieking affliction eats at him. He concedes when I cast tombstalker.
Game 3: He gets out an early shaman. I aim funeral charm and raven's crime at his hand. He casts a 'goyf and beats me for 4 with it. I cast pox. He spellpierces it. I cast pox again on my next turn. He sacs the shaman and plays another shaman. I'm down to 5 now and I have my third pox, raven's crime and a smallpox. He has one land and his two creatures. I cast the pox. He deliberates, wondering if he should sac his 4/5 'goyf or his shaman. If he sacs the 'goyf, I can cast smallpox and he'll be left with an empty board. At the last second, he changes his mind and sacs the shaman. 'Goyf hits me for 4 and I'm left at 1. I smallpox myself out.
Round 4: BIG MISTAKE
At this point, I'm at 2-1. This the last round. My opponent is on high tide. I could probably beat him and get into Top 4. However, I decide to draw with him in the hopes that we both get into Top 4. There's a 1/3 chance I'll play him in the Top 4 and I want to stack the odds in my favor.
The math plays out so that the only way we don't get into Top 4 is if the top guy loses his match and the guy who is paired up wins his match. Very unlikely.
And so it happens.
So I don't get Top 4.
Conclusion: I could have secured a top 4 by beating my last round opponent, but I got greedy and decided to shoot for an opportunity to rig the top 4 in my favor. Of course, if I played out round 4 that would have depended on me beating the high tide player. In theory, its a good match-up but I've never played against high tide before and the other guy seemed very experienced with the high tide deck. Hindsight is 20/20 though. I was happy to beat both death and tax players as the match-up always felt difficult to me. Experience really seems to pay off in the match-up. Man, I really wanted that Top 4
I must say that Rack Pox decks are underrated. I've always done fairly descent. Delver is an auto win. I don't even sideboard. Storm combo can be a problem, Burn gives me trouble and fast aggro decks like Goblins. Show and Tell is a 50/50. Here's my tested build. Yes I run Confidant. Rarely does he die to my Smallpox. The card advantage created when you make your opponent discard their hand yet you get to draw two cards a turn is hard for your opponent to come back from. The idea is to play out your hand first then drop Confidant when you and your opponent are in top deck mode. I have played Pox more than any other deck in recent tournaments and disagree with the several Pox primers I've read that he shouldn't be a staple 4 of.
4x Bloodghast
4x Dark Confidant
Disruption:19
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Raven's Crime
4x Smallpox
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Wrench Mind
2x Ghastly Demise
3x Liliana of the Veil
Artifact (5)
1x Cursed Scroll
4x The Rack
Ramp: 3
3x Dark Ritual
Land (22)
1x Bojuka Bog
3x Mishra's Factory
13x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Wasteland
Currently Playing:
Burning Reanimator
Eldrazi and Taxes
Bug Threshold
Enchantress
Dead Guy Ale
Combo Zombies
Pyromancer Pox
I must say that Rack Pox decks are underrated. I've always done fairly descent. Delver is an auto win. I don't even sideboard. Storm combo can be a problem, Burn gives me trouble and fast aggro decks like Goblins. Show and Tell is a 50/50. Here's my tested build. Yes I run Confidant. Rarely does he die to my Smallpox. The card advantage created when you make your opponent discard their hand yet you get to draw two cards a turn is hard for your opponent to come back from. The idea is to play out your hand first then drop Confidant when you and your opponent are in top deck mode. I have played Pox more than any other deck in recent tournaments and disagree with the several Pox primers I've read that he shouldn't be a staple 4 of.
4x Bloodghast
4x Dark Confidant
Disruption:19
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Raven's Crime
4x Smallpox
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Wrench Mind
2x Ghastly Demise
3x Liliana of the Veil
Artifact (5)
1x Cursed Scroll
4x The Rack
Ramp: 3
3x Dark Ritual
Land (22)
1x Bojuka Bog
3x Mishra's Factory
13x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Wasteland
Currently Playing:
Burning Reanimator
Eldrazi and Taxes
Bug Threshold
Enchantress
Dead Guy Ale
Combo Zombies
Pyromancer Pox
Thanks for posting. Bummer on the results though. High tide actually can be difficult because they have plenty of counters and cantrips.
I love the reanimate tech.
@Laser brains
Looks like a decent enough list. I would love to hear some tournament reports if it does as well as you say. If I had a list that always beat delver I would play it more often.
The simple truth is that sometimes they can counter our key spells and use cantrips to provide superior card quality over a long game... This is even worse in lists running inherent card disadvantage via dark ritual. Your use of Bob to negate this effect is intriguing.
Peace
I was your opponent at the end there. I really feel bad about how that played out. Live and learn, I suppose.
All that aside, it was pretty impressive watching your list cut through the competition. I hadn't seen a list packing big pox in years and it was interesting watching people try to re-acclimate to "pox math" when playing against you.
EDIT: Regarding the match-up, I think you probably were favoured. My appraisal of the match is that I'd be hoping to win the die roll and be able to combo you out early after tempo-ing you with remand (I was on Solidarity, not Spiral Tide). Land destruction is super rough for High Tide-based combo, and Solidarity is much more vulnerable to discard than Spiral Tide (since spiral tide is much better suited to winning off of 1 or 2 cards in hand).
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
Thank you, and thank god Treasure Cruise is banned, Rack Pox was pointless in that meta. If you haven't already, give Confidant a shot. He's won me more games than I can count. You might be interested in a couple other tested non-Rack pox lists I run him in.
This list wrecks Delver. There is so much removal that decks like Canadian Threshold cannot keep up. Plus 14 ways to kill Abyssal Persecutor.
Beatdown (14)
4x Abyssal Persecutor
4x Bloodghast
4x Dark Confidant
2x Gatekeeper of Malakir
Disruption: 18
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
4x Smallpox
4x Sinkhole
2x Innocent Blood
2x Liliana of the Veil
Ramp: 4
4x Dark Ritual
Land: 22
2x Mishra's Factory
14x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
This next list I've only played once but also very competitive. It splashes white for Stoneforge Mystic and Lingering Souls. Mystic is great to sac to Smallpox and Therapy after you've already grabbed your Batterskull. I haven't been placing top 8 with these two decks but not too far behind. The Legacy meta at Knightware in Los Angeles is insane. Huge turn outs. Loads of Delver variants, Death and Taxes, Jund, Show and Tell etc...
Beatdown (13)
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Dark Confidant
3x Lingering Souls
1x Bloodghast
1x Batterskull
Disruption: 20
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Smallpox
2x Sinkhole
2x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Land 24
2x Mishra's Factory
1x Plains
4x Scrubland
3x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Marsh Flats
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
I also have an interesting Pyromancer Pox thread going here in Developing Legacy you might want to look at. It's really fun. I need to test it though.
Currently Playing:
Burning Reanimator
Eldrazi and Taxes
Bug Threshold
Enchantress
Dead Guy Ale
Combo Zombies
Pyromancer Pox
Thanks. It used to be maindeck and I had so I could steal an extra win condition from delver ('goyf or young pyromancer), turn the tables on reanimator or dredge, and to cheat my tombstalker in play against combo. Pox into reanimate on tombstalker is risky against storm decks, but it can pay off because its a clock they won't be expecting so early.
I actually struggled with D&T for quite a while. That last tournament was the best I've done against D&T so far. Like I said, I think a lot of it comes down to practice and experience.
I actually did very well against Delver before Khans block. I beat about six delver decks in a nine round tournament one time. One of the biggest draws to playing pox is that the delver match is typically very solid.
Thanks! Yeah missing out on Top 4 sucks, but I'm happy to know my deck can still win games after TC left the format. I built this when goblins was the deck to beat and I've been tweaking it ever since.
I think Filth will be more useful overall than Nether Spirit, considering Urborg's interaction and the gaggle of Bloodghasts. One of the problems I anticipate is burn, but I'm going to go with three Smother to handle an Infect deck that's been winning at the shop I go to, versus more Spinning Darkness. The Ratchet Bombs are for Needles, and the Tombstalkers are to speed up my clock versus Shardless.
4 Bloodghast
1 Filth
Instants:
3 Entomb
Planeswalkers:
4 Liliana of the Veil
Artifacts:
4 The Rack
Sorceries:
2 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Pox
1 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Mishra's Factory
14 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Pithing Needle
4 Ratchet Bomb
3 Smother
2 Spinning Darkness
3 Tombstalker
Aggro lists with Cabal Therapy and Abyssal Persecutor are gnarly!! The following list from Adam Goldfinger took 4th place out of 59 players at Knightware in Los Angeles. My build includes more land. It is solid! Possibly incorporate a Rack version of this with your Pox slots could be awesome. The list you have posted looks amazing though. Definitely keep us posted on some of the match ups if you can. Nice work!
Adam Goldfinger's Deck
22 LANDS
12 Swamp
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
16 CREATURES
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
4 Abyssal Persecutor
20 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
2 OTHER SPELLS
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Currently Playing:
Burning Reanimator
Eldrazi and Taxes
Bug Threshold
Enchantress
Dead Guy Ale
Combo Zombies
Pyromancer Pox
Whoa there friend, this thread is for rack pox. Aggro pox variants are as different as control variants from the sorts of builds we are here to discuss. Talkingfawn's list for instance is very similar to the one in the primer.
No offense, I'm sure your aggro builds are fun, but the strategy is fundamentally different from ours.
@Talkingfawn
You can play filth instead of nether spirit although you may find yourself missing the blocker in some games.
I think boarding in ratchet bomb to fight needle is the wrong move. Liliana will either activate a few times for value before the needle or if they play needle first we just discard her to a pox effect... Either way we likely gained card advantage. She is not so key to our victory that we need to go overboard to protect her (and the reason it isn't necessary to run more than 3).
If you have the cards I do highly recommend SDT and fetchlands to help filter draws and keep bloodghast in play.
Burn isn't a huge problem since they are still weak to our disruption and we have a reasonable clock. My record is favorable. Don't be afraid to use big pox because the land destruction is worth it. The games I lose are when I don't draw win-cons.
Peace
Dromar, I went and got two SDT and four Bloodstained Mire. Turns out that, yes, they and Entomb are very useful in conjunction with the SDT, allowing for finding that key card. Also I decided you're right about overkill with the Ratchet Bombs versus Lily, so I switched the sideboard a bit and have actually taken her out for a few games, when anticipating Needles. Twice I got people to name her, to no avail I did maintain the 4 Bombs though, as there is a heavy presence of Tarmogoyfs, Deathrite Shamans, Kird Apes, Wild Nacatls, Glistener Elves, etc. at my shop.
Here is my current build:
4 Bloodghast
1 Filth
Instants:
3 Entomb
Planeswalkers:
3 Liliana of the Veil
Artifacts:
2 The Rack
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Enchantments:
2 Shrieking Affliction
Sorceries:
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Pox
1 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
1 Dakmor Salvage
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Bloodstained Mire
11 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle
4 Ratchet Bomb
3 Smother
3 Tombstalker
In the main 60, I wanted to try 2 Racks and 2 Shrieking Affliction to lessen the vulnerability to dedicated artifact hate like Smash to Smithereens and Ancient Grudge. I know plenty of cards can take care of either of them, but I figure the off chance of catching someone with an anti-artifact card in their hand cause they saw The Rack last game, but having Affliction working them this game would be great.
There is a lot of interaction with SDT, bloodghasts, fetches, dakmor salvage, and urborg that may not be immediately obvious but I think I covered most of it in the primer. Sometimes great plays will win games out of nowhere.
With 3 entomb and an aggro-heavy meta you could consider 1x vengeful pharaoh. It's not something I've tested but it's been on the radar. Useful to entomb during the opponent's combat phase.
Shrieking affliction is fine. I use the rack because it's better against miracles by taking down jace and I really hate losing to miracles. You're definitely right about artifact hate being more prevalent.
Peace
3 Myth Realized
4 The Rack
4 Bloodghast
//Disruption (25)
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Disfigure
2 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Raven's Crime
1 Spinning Darkness
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Scrubland
1 Plains
8 Swamp
As far as build go it looks good but I wouldn't go without SDT.
Humility would be great in the board.... Bloodghast can block!
Peace