"There is Sorin standing like a stone wall. Let us determine to die here, and we will conquer."
1) Background:
This is a WB tokens deck. The deck is named after the strategy coined from the tactics of Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson during the US Civil War. During that war, another general is recorded as having said "There is Jackson standing like a stone wall. Let us determine to die here, and we will conquer." Similarly, the strategy normally plays out with us using our tokens as a stonewall - chump blocking larger creatures and then going over the top when we can. The usage of vigilance from Intangible Virtue is huge here. Early on in the game, however, we focus on hand disruption/control to prepare the battlefield to our advantage. Late in the game, we look for our final alpha strike to win - sometimes faster than they expect. Additionally, the usage of "stone" in the name also connects it to the similarities to some StoneBlade or TokenBlade decks. The small Stoneforge Mystic package allows us to grind out longer via combat and lifegain.
This deck started as "Soul Vault Tokens" in late 2012 (first posted here in January 2013) as a budget deck. Since then it has come a long way and greatly improved. This deck is intended to be competitive, although my meta tends to be slightly more casual than some. For example, I don't see a lot of Wasteland or combo decks and have adjusted my deck somewhat for that. But as originally stated, this is intended to be competitive and not casual/budget. I don't mind if WB tokens is not tier 1 as I love the style that it plays, but I want to make it the best that I can.
Lingering Souls - The best token producer ever IMHO. I don't think this one needs much explanation. Spectral Procession - Often almost as good as Lingering Souls and since our deck is mostly white, the triple white is rarely a problem. Bitterblossom - The life pinging hurts, but when you view it as 1 life spent each turn to block a creature who would cause more damage it is really worth it. It tends to be boarded against burn or swarm/zoo decks where the life pinging hurts too much. Raise the Alarm - Tends to be our weakest token generator, but still 2 mana for 2 tokens and at instant speed. It is particularly good against control decks or as surprise defenders.
Thoughtseize - The best discard, although the life loss does hurt us a lot in our grind-out plan if we don't have any lifegain readily available. Inquisition of Kozilek - Usually hits all the cards we need to get rid of without losing us any life.
Swords to Plowshares - Possibly the best removal in legacy. The life doesn't mean much as long as we are outgrinding them with card advantage - we can take that life back with one swing from our tokens.
Intangible Virtue - A pump + vigilance. Nothing short of amazing for how this deck plays and the deck wouldn't be the same without it. It does mean we need to limit our non-token creatures, but in testing I have tended to prefer them anyway. Zealous Persecution - A temporary anthem that also acts as removal for 2 mana. And if that wasn't enough, it goes into turbo mode when paired with Humility.
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad - This guys is a powerhouse regardless of our game state. If we need blockers/life, he produces a lifelink token. If we need to alpha, he gives us a permanent +1/+0 to all creatures. I've never needed his ultimate, but that could be pretty bonkers too. Sorin, Solemn Visitor - At first I thought this was a lesser version of the above Sorin, but it turns out this guy is better when you need life - usually against burn/zoo.
Stoneforge Mystic - Grabs us the equipment we want and throws down Batterskull turn 3 through counterspells. Couldn't ask for more. I have tried this as a 2-of and a 4-of, but 3-of seems to be the sweet spot to see if often enough without being a dead card (without adding more equipment). Batterskull - Enables a 4/4 (or more) vigilant lifelink creature as early as turn 3. Wipes out burn/zoo, while giving us more time against other decks. Umezawa's Jitte - Lifegain, removal, creature pump - whatever you need it to be, this card enables our grind game to go into turbo mode - especially when paired with vigilant tokens.
Cabal Therapy - Amazing discard when we need extra discard against control decks or don't want to pay the life from Thoughtseize. The flashback is easy with this deck and goes along with the idea of trading part of a card for a whole card. Humility - This card is amazing. It only impacts Stoneforge Mystic and my flying - but gives me the upper hand with my creatures, especially when paired with Zealous Persecution. I would run this main board if I knew I was going to be playing against creature decks. Unfortunately, it is a dead card against a lot of other decks. Martyr's Cause - This is a bit of a rotating slot card, but it works well against burn and trample - two things that this deck doesn't like. Rest in Peace - Stops graveyard decks in their tracks. Unfortunately, it doesn't work well with Lingering Souls, but that is little loss when we are shutting down their deck. Sundering Growth - Destroy a artifact/enchantment and get a free token out of it. Vindicate - Destroy anything (even land!) for 3 mana. Zealous Persecution - Additional copies when playing against creature decks (especially those with x/1s) or when using Humility.
Enlightened Tutor - Great silver bullet fetcher - can grab a pump, Bitterblossom, equipment, or a sideboard/hate card. Despite the technical card disadvantage, it can really set up our plays when needed. Spear of Heliod - A pump and rattlesnake/removal. This card keeps going in and out of my deck as my opinion on it changes. Circle of Protection: Red - Great against red decks. This card has been in my deck quite a few times as well, but I keep removing it due to its narrow nature. Aegis of Honor - In some ways better than Circle of Protection: Red against burn spells, but less versatile overall. Gather the Townsfolk - Better than Raise the Alarm, except it isn't at instant speed and thus sits out of the deck. Timely Reinforcements - Good against burn/zoo, but can be situationally a dead card. Story Circle - A more versatile Circle of Protection: Red, but also more expensive. Tidehollow Sculler - Discard on a stick, but not permanent and doesn't get pumped by Intangible Virtue and competes for the 2 slot. Duress - Fantastic discard against burn/control, but tends to be more narrow than the alternatives. Despise - Great discard against creature decks, but we tend to have better answers to them. Path of Bravery - Lifegain is nice, but the pump is too situational. This is a card I really want to be good. Brave the Sands - This is another card that I really want to be good, but don't think it will ever make it. It grants both vigilance as well as the ability for a single token to block 2 creatures, but it reallys needs a pump effect or something additional to make it. Hero of Bladehold - This card can end games on its own, but costs 4 mana without doing anything for a whole turn. Tombstalker - Great game ender, but we have better options. Beckon Apparition - Another great card to combat graveyard decks, but I would only use it if my meta changed to be much more graveyard focused. Midnight Haunting - Instant speed is amazing, but I need more than 2 tokens for 3 mana in this deck. Potentially better in a control-heavy meta. Council's Judgment - Great for grabbing hexproof/protection creatures if your meta is bloated with them. Currently, I tend to have other answers that work well (i.e., Zealous Persecution for True-Name Nemesis). Brimaz, King of Oreskos - Great token maker, but costs 3 mana and doesn't work as well with Intangible Virtue. Godsend - Great equipment for stonewalling (& removing) creatures, but not sure that it is better than what I have or against what decks I would sideboard it in. Sword of Fire and Ice - Amazing equipment, but not sure that it is better than what I have or against what decks I would sideboard it in. Celestial Purge - Great against black & red decks if your meta is bloated with them. Worship - This could be terrific, but I am not 100% sold on it. Thunderstaff - This is great for the stonewall/alpha strike strategy and in conjunction with Humility, but has low impact until turns 4/5.
I hope to add more in the future, but please give me your thoughts/opinions to make this deck even better. It is a blast to play as you get a combination of control, mid-range, and token/swarm.
I haven't had a chance to test the deck out, but on looking at it, I was wondering if you thought of running Innocent Blood in the Main Deck? Yes it is symmetrical but it will affect the your opponent more as you will keep pumping out tokens. And since it is non-targeting it can handle the likes of Mother of Runes and True-Name Nemesis. Also looking at Thoughtseize I would think that the 2-4 life in the early game would be rather important, until you can get your lifelink engines up and running would Hymn to Tourach cause an issue with your mana having the double black cc? Or main decking the Cabal Therapy see their hand with IKO follow up with Therapy sac a token for flashback, that could wreck their plans in a hurry.
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P1: T1 Dark Ritual, Necropotence.
P2: Force that!
P1: Nah, Force that.
P2: Scoop.
I haven't had a chance to test the deck out, but on looking at it, I was wondering if you thought of running Innocent Blood in the Main Deck? Yes it is symmetrical but it will affect the your opponent more as you will keep pumping out tokens. And since it is non-targeting it can handle the likes of Mother of Runes and True-Name Nemesis. Also looking at Thoughtseize I would think that the 2-4 life in the early game would be rather important, until you can get your lifelink engines up and running would Hymn to Tourach cause an issue with your mana having the double black cc? Or main decking the Cabal Therapy see their hand with IKO follow up with Therapy sac a token for flashback, that could wreck their plans in a hurry.
I have considered running something like Innocent Blood, but the problem is that when I play Swords to Plowshares, there may be more than one creature in play for them and I usually have a good idea of which I want removed. As for cards like Mother of Runes and True-Name Nemesis, Zealous Persecution works on them both and a whole lot more good x/1s. The lifeloss from Thoughtseize can definitely hurt, but its power often still makes it worth it. Additionally, it is more likely to do hurt the opponent game one when I don't necessarily know what they are running on turn 1. But Cabal Therapy is amazing from the sideboard. I wouldn't be opposed to even playing it mainboard if you expect a certain meta. Hymn to Tourach is also amazing, but yes, the double black is hard on turn 2. Plus, the 2 drop spot is very competitive and I'd rather have something to do turn 1.
First of all, imo Humility is what makes this deck. It just wins the game vs every fair deck. It is just that powerful in this deck and you always want to get it out asap. I thought about playing Stoneforge but it kinda sucks with Humility and Jitte is the Equipment you want 90% of the time anyways, giving you some life back or being a really nice clock (besides it's just the nuts with bitterblossom). Cabal Therapy is pretty damn powerful here too, im playing the other 2 in the sideboard, since they are not always good vs fair decks. In my testing they have proven to be very good though. Zealous persecution is the other little gem thats just a really solid card and in this deck is just so powerful, especially with Humility but also just now with delver or TNN being everywhere. Enlightened Tutor is mainly for my Sideboard, which contains silver bullets.
Top is something im testing out at the moment. I experienced some bad draws with too many lands / clunky hands and Top seems nice to filter the things i need depending on the situation. I'd also like to squeeze in 2 Elspeth somewhere in the 75 or preverably the main. She just seems so powerful all around (obviously nuts under Humility too).
Humility is indeed one of the best engines in this deck. Unfortunately, it does little against decks with low creature counts for its mana cost, so I have found myself preferring to bring it in from the sideboard. That being said, I have gone back and forth on this and it might be better in the mainboard - at least in some metas. Additionally, I absolutely love Stoneforge Mystic in this deck. It gives card advantage and the choice between Umezawa's Jitte and Batterskull - both of which I have sometimes preferred. At first I was unsure about how it would play out with Humility, but honestly it makes little difference most games. Humility doesn't come down until turn 4, while we usually play Stoneforge Mystic in the first 3 turns when we have it. Basically, I like to have access to two powerful engines and don't mind siding one for the other either. Also, in complete agreement with you on Cabal Therapy and Zealous Persecution - both are nuts in this deck. I used to also play Enlightened Tutor from the sideboard, but eventually took it out for other slots. I can't say that I have tried Sensei's Divining Top in this deck, but I don't really think that is what this deck wants - it really runs on getting as much as it can out of each card and that seems clunky for this deck - but maybe I am wrong. Lastly, Elspeth, Knight-Errant is great but really gets outclassed by both Sorins IMHO, especially with Humility in play - her pump affects only one creature..
Thanks for all the feedback, you have me experimenting again! Hopefully we can find some room for improvement in this deck!
I would love to know how viable this list can actually become, because I've always loved the BW Tokens build from Modern, but wanted to play it in Legacy. There has got to be some more options for this deck to make it more viable right?
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Humility is weak vs (mostly control) light creature decks, you're right and it has been sided out sometimes. Maybe im going back to the stoneforge package, as batterskull is also insane with Humility. I like Enlightened Tutor, despite being card disadvantage, it can get any missing part that is needed: Whether it be a Token Generator (Bitterblossom), Pump or just a silver bullet or catch all with Oring. I'm even thinking of moving 1 Rest in Peace to the main with all the crazy Delve shenanigans going on right now. I do not like Top very much, but i figured it gives me something to do in the early stages of the game, setting up my lands for Humility / Procession, but i might just take it out again since this deck is already really good at topdecking.
Lastly, what Planeswalker do you think is the best here ? I haven't come around to test the new Sorin yet, but he seems very nice with his pump/lifelink, especially with Bitterblossom.
Definitely try out the SFM package - I think it gives this deck a nice competitive edge without being too reliant on it and thus scooping to SFM hate. I really like Enlightened Tutor and as I said, I have used it before... honestly, right now if I had one more slot in SB, I would probably put it there. I agree that the silver bullet fetching is more important than the card disadvantage. I've also added it to the first post as I realized it is missing there..
I have loved Sorin, Lord of Innistrad since he was first revealed and even more so in this deck. My favorite is his -2 as it gives a permanent +1/+0 which works fantastic in grind out scenarios - eventually we will have enough to go over the top and win and they can't get rid of the pump. The +1 is amazing in situations where you need life or another token/blocker. When I first saw the new Sorin, Solemn Visitor, I liked him, but couldn't imagine that he would be anywhere as good. But then I was reading in the modern BW Tokens forum and people tried it and said he was amazing vs burn/zoo (2 decks that can be a lot to handle sometimes). So I tried it and LOVED it... honestly, wish I could stick another in the SB. His +1 is what makes him so good - pair that with 2 flying tokens and Intangible Virtue and you can swing for 6 in the air while gaining 6 life and have 2 3/2 lifelink flyers for blocking on their turn - allowing for up to 6 more life against decks like zoo, while possibly killing off 2 creatures with 3 or less toughness. The -2 for a 2/2 flyer is just gravy and gives you another option when lifegain isn't what you really need. He is better at getting you through the early game and into the late game whereas the former is better at overall grinding out the entire game and making you stronger late game. Both have their uses and thus the 2/1 split that I have currently. I am still continuing to test, though, so I might develop a different opinion on time, but hopefully that helps...
I would love to know how viable this list can actually become, because I've always loved the BW Tokens build from Modern, but wanted to play it in Legacy. There has got to be some more options for this deck to make it more viable right?
I agree and hence this thread. I would say the biggest advantages we have over Modern BW tokens have to do with Humility and our SFM package. Cabal Therapy and Vindicate are nice too, but have less distinction from our Modern relative equivalents. I've been looking for more unfair things to do with this deck with stuff like Humility and am hoping others have ideas too.. This deck is very solid if a bit fair overall.
I think the big question for a deck in these colors is how is this preferable to Dead Guy Ale?
Honestly, having played both, they have some similarities, particularly when using the SFM package. However, this is a token deck and relies far less on creature cards. This results in a different style of game play (aka, the stone wall) and also worsens some of their cards (removal). I think tokens adds a lot more grind/survival ability and makes the deck very lethal at times. And honestly, it is a lot more fun - probably my biggest reason even if the least spike reason. But at a whole, they share a lot, but play very differently. This deck can play more like dead guy with its SFM and control elements or go all aggro/swarm. Additionally, Humility becomes a slam dunk card in this deck and not so much in dead guy.
Yeah, Humility is a powerful card. It wins against all forms of aggro and just shuts down other creature based decks completely. I'm testing a lot vs a friend who is running Death&Taxes and it is just dumb what Humility does to his deck. Plus it dodges Aprubt decay and all the enter the battlefield triggers (elves) so it is pretty damn hard to remove too. Like svede said, you don't run creatures but instead have more resilient threats with Bitterblossom / Lingering Souls etc. One topdecked Spectral Procession has so much impact on the game too.
I really couldn't have said that any better - that really sums up how humility transforms this deck (even when coming in from the SB as with my personal deck). I will add, however, that my deck is heavily white which allows for Spectral Procession turn 3. Most deadguy ale decks I see are heavier black and use Dark Confidant who doesn't go well with a CMC of 6.
How are the 22 Lands working out for you ? I guess im a little biased here since i got locked out by my friends ports and wastes a few times, so i added the 23 Land. I just always want to get to 4 lands as quickly as possible to drop Humility or a walker.
This is something I have gone back and forth on and seen others emphatically argue for 23 lands. I don't usually try and race to 4 mana (except when I board in Humility), but never really have trouble getting to it either. I have found that the extra card tends to be better than the extra land most games. I certainly wouldn't fault someone for disagreeing though as I have done that at times myself to experiment. I also saw others running BW token decks in legacy with only 22 lands so I don't think I am alone. One particular deck that I look up to (which also maindecked Humility like you) got 12th in an open back in 2012 - run by Zachary Keith (check it out - great info: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/developing-legacy/181706-bw-tokens). It also ran 22 lands while relying on getting to 4 mana for Humility. Obviously, I go by my own experience and meta more than others, but I think it is doable.
Still need to get some number of Scrubland. I've been proxying those for some time, but it runs almost as smoothly with the shocklands since the lifegain from Jitte and Vault kicks in pretty fast. That said I've also never had any problems with Bitterblossom and Thoughtseize combined. The Elspeth, Knight Errant should be Sorin,Solemn Visitor as soon as i have them to get additional lifegain. Pretty much every game i found him to be just better than Else. Turn 1 Discard into Turn 2 Bitterblossom into Intangible Virtue or Umezawa's Jitte is still pretty much the best start this deck has. It has enough early game while dropping the bombs of Humility or a silver bullet via Enlightened Tutor later in the game(especially postboard). Rest in Peace is a meta call and mainboard right now vs the Treasure Cruise Madness.
That doesn't look bad at all. I still like my SFM package (won too many games off the back of it), but have been really wanting to put Humility mainboard lately - just not sure what should be moved to the SB for it. I also notice you don't have Raise the Alarm in your mainboard. Admittedly, they are probably our worst token-maker, but coming down on turn 2 can be necessary against some decks and the instant speed is great against control. Any reason for removing (or just not playing) them? Have you used them at all and how did you feel about them?
And mainboard Rest in Peace isn't a bad idea in the current meta - I just don't like losing the second half of Lingering Souls unless I have to. The way I look at it, they lose a 2 card advantage and we lose a 1 card advantage - not sure that is worth it. That being said, I have considered doing this as well. I am also concerned with the current meta (due to Treasure Cruise) diminishing the value of discard - I need to see better how my local meta will settle out with Treasure Cruise.
Probs for the nice name of the deck btw ;), and a nice gem in conjunction with the name are those Plains by Rebecca Guay, for anyone who is digging the flavor : here
Thanks! I may be a little different than most with this, but I love being able to have a name for a deck of mine that communicates how it plays... always been more of a rogue player.
I love those plains with the great wall on them... would be quite nice... too bad they cost $15 each - I'll have to save up for them. I might check out other plains out there, too..
I played with this deck for the past week or so and I really like it. I think Humility is the card that makes the deck go and it wrecks a lot of decks that rely on creatures.
I like Raise the Alarm a lot in this deck. Instant speed for surprise blockers or End of Turn use. It also enables early Cabal Therapy flashback.
For personal reasons I don't like Stoneforge Mystic with BW tokens. When I use/win with SFM, it just feels like another SFM deck and likely there is already a better shell for SFM (Jace etc). For tournament play certainly would not be a bad idea, but I like Raise the Alarm better.
Hour of Reckoning is a card i've been testing out, and has become a 2 off sideboard card at best. Between Swords to Plowshares and Zealous Persecution for early game removal, im playing 3 maindeck Humility that takes care of creatures later. I never find myself needing more removal than that, and Humility is just more powerful all around. just my 2 cents
cheers
So akaBuG pretty much nailed all the answers on the head..
Elspeth costs too much, despite being pretty awesome at what she does.
I love Hour of Reckoning and have been very tempted to even 1-of sideboard it, but I never find any room and like akaBuG said, we tend to have pretty good removal options for creatures already... I'd love the following christmas-land scenario, but I don't think it is going to happen a lot:
Turn 1: Land, Discard etc
Turn 2: Land, Intangible Virtue
Turn 3: Land, Spectral Procession
Turn 4: Land, Attack for 6 in the air (vigilant so they don't tapp), cast Hour of Reckoning for 4 and tapping 3 creatures
But I am just not sure that is better than what we can already do with more flexibility... still in my "maybeboard" though..
I played with this deck for the past week or so and I really like it. I think Humility is the card that makes the deck go and it wrecks a lot of decks that rely on creatures.
I like Raise the Alarm a lot in this deck. Instant speed for surprise blockers or End of Turn use. It also enables early Cabal Therapy flashback.
For personal reasons I don't like Stoneforge Mystic with BW tokens. When I use/win with SFM, it just feels like another SFM deck and likely there is already a better shell for SFM (Jace etc). For tournament play certainly would not be a bad idea, but I like Raise the Alarm better.
Glad you are enjoying it! I am coming around to Humility in the mainboard (even with SFM) as I have been testing even more... 2-of with a Enlightened Tutor seems right to me ..
I like Raise the Alarm, but am also very frustrated with them... they tend to be the worst token producer, especially against creature decks IMHO. In my switches, I have actually moved them to the sideboard... Definitely still NEED them in some matchups due to instant speed and being a 2 CMC token producer, but I've liked them far better in the sideboard. Against control decks and some combo decks they come in though for sure.
As for SFM, I may be biased because I love SFM decks, but that is a card I can't imagine taking out unless a major change happens in the meta. I recently tested removing it for the sake of testing everything and it hurt my deck a lot. I think the biggest thing is to view it as more than just a SFM deck... SFM tutors two cards that are critical IMHO to this deck. Umezawa's Jitte is just too good to not be tutorable and I didn't like it as a 2-of. Batterskull is obviously best when it comes down turn 3, but honestly it is so amazing in this deck and is very hard to stop without artifact removal - especially combined with Humility. I'd definitely remove it for some matchups, but most it is a backbone to the deck from my experience - though I welcome other thoughts and experiments... could even be a meta-thing.
I tend to agree with you about Vault of the Archangel - it is a 5-mana "spell".... most games it doesn't do much until I get to late game (when I tend to do better anyway)... However, there have always been those games where it has saved a game out of nowhere so I am hard-pressed to remove it... I am definitely considering dropping it to a 1-of, but I am not sure that I am there yet..
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In general, I have been testing my deck heavily and as said above, made some big changes. The biggest one is to push Raise the Alarm to the sideboard and a Humility package to the mainboard. This has been giving me a 70-80% win percentage against creature-based aggro before sideboarding (which is the most common in my meta). It even does decent against some of the control decks I played against with a 40-60% win percentage against most of those before sideboarding. It still struggles before sideboarding against burn and combo, however. I also am relying more on Sorin, Solemn Visitor than Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, which actually surprised me a bit. My only other concern right now is if I should be pushing for 23 lands instead of 22... most games I am fine, but there are those few games I lose due to needing to mulligan for land or whatnot. But then there are also the times I have too much land, so I am not sure - plus the list is tight right now. Thoughts on this?
As someone who plays BW tokens in modern, I love that this deck could be possible in legacy!
Very cool!
RE: 22/23 lands -
I play 23 lands in modern and I think that's the right number. Things might be different in legacy, but I don't have that knowledge. Looking at your list, the only thing that I would personally WANT to reduce by 1 would be Spectral Procession for a 23rd land.
Any thoughts??? Please let me know what you think!!!
I see you run Cabal Therapy + Raise the Alarm in the sideboard which is probably a good choice. I run the package main - so either all in the main or all in the side is best.
Personally not a fan of Enlightened Tutor as we are not a combo deck that needs to assemble a critical piece and the card disadvantage is not worth it to me.
Humility is great against aggro and even some Combo decks that use a creature as a piece (Painter's Servant, Reanimator decks, Elves etc). Against certain decks it is of course a dead card but to have most aggro decks scoop when it is resolved is worth it to me.
I don't think I would drop the land count because resolving one of our 4-drops at some point seems critical and we have no other acceleration. Surviving the early game and making it into the mid game is where this deck shines, and that's what makes it fun.
As someone who plays BW tokens in modern, I love that this deck could be possible in legacy!
Very cool!
RE: 22/23 lands -
I play 23 lands in modern and I think that's the right number. Things might be different in legacy, but I don't have that knowledge. Looking at your list, the only thing that I would personally WANT to reduce by 1 would be Spectral Procession for a 23rd land.
Thanks for your thoughts! I dabbled with BW Tokens in Modern, but not a lot. They do tend to have more 5 CMC spells that would force them to run 23 lands. However, legacy also has more land denial from cards like Wasteland that might also demand 23 lands for some people. Fortunately, that card is being used a bit less right now with the emergence of UR Delver decks - plus my meta tends to have less land denial in general. That being said, I am definitely watching my land count and may need to go up to 23. I've even considered playing Wasteland in this deck, but it doesn't really seem necessary and we need a lot of colored lands.
List looks stonewall-solid ;)! Nice to see you adopted Humility in the main deck :). I think it's pretty much the "I win" button in the deck and is worth it even in multiples although it is bad versus control / combo. I can definitely see you being fine with 22 lands. Since you have the stoneforge mystic package you have some serious game in the early turns, which compliments the Humility package niceley which comes in later. For me it is still 23 lands, since i do not play stoneforge at the moment and had to force my way through some mana denial decks too often. Also Spectral Procession does not always come down t3 with the triple white. I'd second the thought that if you want to add a 23rd land i'd take out a Spectral Procession or one mystic for it.
I've seen a fair amount of players play only 3 Spectral Procession, but I've never quite understood it unless you have a heavier black presence. I mean, I only have 3 lands that can't produce white or fetch white - and 1 of those I am thinking of turning into a plains. Also, with Raise the Alarm in the sideboard, I only have 8 sorceries/instants that produce tokens... not sure I could cut another.
Which brings me to my next thoughts - I love Vault of the Archangel in some games, but am definitely hating getting 2 of them in my hand in some games... thinking of swapping it for a plains.
I see you run Cabal Therapy + Raise the Alarm in the sideboard which is probably a good choice. I run the package main - so either all in the main or all in the side is best.
Personally not a fan of Enlightened Tutor as we are not a combo deck that needs to assemble a critical piece and the card disadvantage is not worth it to me.
I totally agree - Cabal Therapy and Raise the Alarm can be nuts against certain decks. I am just preferring them in the sideboard for now (although that might change). I could definitely see you wanting one or both of them in the mainboard in some metas.
I also agree with your sentiments about Enlightened Tutor (see some discussion above) and the decision comes down to whether or not the card selection is better than the card disadvantage. Right now in my current build, I am saying yes to that, especially since we have a lot of card advantage (SFM) and pseudo card advantage (tokens). The big reason I brought it back was for Humility. I like the ability to virtually play 3 copies without having dead copies in my hand. Against counterspells and removal, I do sometimes like a second one, but against most decks I don't need one. Enlightened Tutor enables a pseudo third copy without being a dead card - it can also fetch Bitterblossom, Intangible Virtue, equipment, or sideboard cards.
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On a sidenote (and less competitive level), I have been exploring good art for the plains after akaBuG suggested the APAC plains with the great wall of china. Those are awesome, but also $10-$15+ each... I have traditionally used the mirrodin bladed grass as I find it a sort of threating wall - like large caltrops or something. But in searching, I found that KTK produced one with a fortress/wall that is also nice as well as an old ice age "natural wall" art one... Check them out and let me know what you think!
Stoneforge package is back in the main,turns out it is just a natural fit (props to svede). I've backed down to 22 Lands again and so far it's been fine.
Now here are the things that really give me trouble: How do we beat opposing equipment, namely Umezawa's Jitte or Batterskull ? While those are really widely played right now, it just seems soo hard to beat an opposing active jitte. Also equipment can't really be stopped by Humility, another disadvantage for this deck. Even the Swords can start to give us trouble, which is annoying under Humility. Discard is helpful vs Stoneforge targets, but I don't really feel like adding more as it becomes less useful later on and is a pretty terrible topdeck, which this deck should be strong at. I've thought about adding a number of Vindicate or Oblivion Ring but I don't know what to cut.
I am playing vs D&T quite a lot, and thus am faced with this problem pretty often...so far i solved it kinda okayish with cards like stony silence out of the sideboard, abusing Enlightened Tutor and taking out my own equipment, as i think the plan "who gets the Jitte online first wins" is pretty terrible vs D&T.
Soo any help would be greatly appreciated, as i really think this deck is a house in an unknown meta and i want to continue improving it
cheers
Thanks for the update! I've been meaning to give an update as well, but it has been pretty busy for me. In answer to your question, I really like a couple Sundering Growth in the sideboard. The double white really does't impact my game very much the way I have my mana. The instant speed is amazing and you get a free token out of it (assuming you already have at least one), so it doesn't slow you down too much either. I view it as a 2-for-1 or better against swords since they lose their sword and you gain a token - for less mana than they spent. And if you do it mid-combat, you might be able to block their creature and kill it. I have't had to SB them in a lot, but when needed, they are amazing. I also have a couple Vindicates in the SB for more flexible destruction. I haven't needed these in the mainboard, so I would just keep them sideboarded - unless you are seeing a lot of swords maindecked in your meta? If so, maybe cut 1 Humility and 1 of the planeswalkers for 2 answers?
I've added a few cards to this deck and have been pretty happy:
Doomed Traveler: I run Cabal Therapy and the synergy has been good for me. A weakness of the deck I thought was turn 1 plays and Doomed Traveler is good even without therapy as a chump before dying and adding to the main strategy.
Brimaz, King of Oreskos: Token maker with Vigilance and a big body this deck sometimes needs.
Stoneforge Mystic: I was not running this before. I've seen the light.
I was running Elspeth but cut her. Both Sorins seem good but I favor the Lord of Innistrad. I cut Vault of the Archangel out as it became more important to guarantee I could cast my 1 drop on turn 1 and I always thought it was too expensive/narrow anyway.
Still playing this deck from time to time and enjoying it.
Any progress or updates to the BW tokens archetype in Legacy since LyMinnh's last post in April?
Almost all of my playable decks were stolen out of my truck in a sh*tty break-in and this idea (tokens in Legacy) re-inspired to brew and collect again.
May be a tough archetype to make work in Legacy but I've been having a lot of fun with it so far and I feel like there is something decent here.
So far, so good. When I lose games... I don't feel like I'm confused as to why nor do I feel like I get blown out. Baby steps, but crawling can be beautiful.
Like I said, glad to have been re-inspired to collect again and to keep playing. Thanks y'all.
The deck seems super fun, and BW gives you what are probably the best sideboard options to combat most decks, I'm testing AkaBuG's latest list with Wasteland instead of Vaults and two Call the Bloodline in place of two Bitterblossoms. Doing decent so far, specially against slower creature decks like BUG, Eldrazi and Maverick.
As for the Jitte problem, the answer is more removal. They cannot equip a creature if they don't have a creature.
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This is a WB tokens deck. The deck is named after the strategy coined from the tactics of Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson during the US Civil War. During that war, another general is recorded as having said "There is Jackson standing like a stone wall. Let us determine to die here, and we will conquer." Similarly, the strategy normally plays out with us using our tokens as a stonewall - chump blocking larger creatures and then going over the top when we can. The usage of vigilance from Intangible Virtue is huge here. Early on in the game, however, we focus on hand disruption/control to prepare the battlefield to our advantage. Late in the game, we look for our final alpha strike to win - sometimes faster than they expect. Additionally, the usage of "stone" in the name also connects it to the similarities to some StoneBlade or TokenBlade decks. The small Stoneforge Mystic package allows us to grind out longer via combat and lifegain.
This deck started as "Soul Vault Tokens" in late 2012 (first posted here in January 2013) as a budget deck. Since then it has come a long way and greatly improved. This deck is intended to be competitive, although my meta tends to be slightly more casual than some. For example, I don't see a lot of Wasteland or combo decks and have adjusted my deck somewhat for that. But as originally stated, this is intended to be competitive and not casual/budget. I don't mind if WB tokens is not tier 1 as I love the style that it plays, but I want to make it the best that I can.
2) The Deck:
1x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
4x Plains
4x Scrubland
1x Swamp
2x Vault of the Archangel
2x Windbrisk Heights
4x Windswept Heath
Creature (3)
3x Stoneforge Mystic
Planeswalker (3)
2x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Enchantment (8)
4x Bitterblossom
4x Intangible Virtue
Instant (9)
3x Raise the Alarm
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Zealous Persecution
Sorcery (13)
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
4x Spectral Procession
2x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Humility
1x Martyr's Cause
2x Rest in Peace
2x Sundering Growth
2x Vindicate
2x Zealous Persecution
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
1x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
4x Plains
4x Scrubland
1x Swamp
2x Vault of the Archangel
2x Windbrisk Heights
4x Windswept Heath
Creature (3)
3x Stoneforge Mystic
Planeswalker (3)
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Enchantment (10)
4x Bitterblossom
2x Humility
4x Intangible Virtue
Instant (7)
1x Enlightened Tutor
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Zealous Persecution
Sorcery (13)
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
4x Spectral Procession
2x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Humility
3x Raise the Alarm
2x Rest in Peace
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2x Sundering Growth
2x Vindicate
1x Zealous Persecution
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
Lingering Souls - The best token producer ever IMHO. I don't think this one needs much explanation.
Spectral Procession - Often almost as good as Lingering Souls and since our deck is mostly white, the triple white is rarely a problem.
Bitterblossom - The life pinging hurts, but when you view it as 1 life spent each turn to block a creature who would cause more damage it is really worth it. It tends to be boarded against burn or swarm/zoo decks where the life pinging hurts too much.
Raise the Alarm - Tends to be our weakest token generator, but still 2 mana for 2 tokens and at instant speed. It is particularly good against control decks or as surprise defenders.
Thoughtseize - The best discard, although the life loss does hurt us a lot in our grind-out plan if we don't have any lifegain readily available.
Inquisition of Kozilek - Usually hits all the cards we need to get rid of without losing us any life.
Swords to Plowshares - Possibly the best removal in legacy. The life doesn't mean much as long as we are outgrinding them with card advantage - we can take that life back with one swing from our tokens.
Intangible Virtue - A pump + vigilance. Nothing short of amazing for how this deck plays and the deck wouldn't be the same without it. It does mean we need to limit our non-token creatures, but in testing I have tended to prefer them anyway.
Zealous Persecution - A temporary anthem that also acts as removal for 2 mana. And if that wasn't enough, it goes into turbo mode when paired with Humility.
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad - This guys is a powerhouse regardless of our game state. If we need blockers/life, he produces a lifelink token. If we need to alpha, he gives us a permanent +1/+0 to all creatures. I've never needed his ultimate, but that could be pretty bonkers too.
Sorin, Solemn Visitor - At first I thought this was a lesser version of the above Sorin, but it turns out this guy is better when you need life - usually against burn/zoo.
Stoneforge Mystic - Grabs us the equipment we want and throws down Batterskull turn 3 through counterspells. Couldn't ask for more. I have tried this as a 2-of and a 4-of, but 3-of seems to be the sweet spot to see if often enough without being a dead card (without adding more equipment).
Batterskull - Enables a 4/4 (or more) vigilant lifelink creature as early as turn 3. Wipes out burn/zoo, while giving us more time against other decks.
Umezawa's Jitte - Lifegain, removal, creature pump - whatever you need it to be, this card enables our grind game to go into turbo mode - especially when paired with vigilant tokens.
Cabal Therapy - Amazing discard when we need extra discard against control decks or don't want to pay the life from Thoughtseize. The flashback is easy with this deck and goes along with the idea of trading part of a card for a whole card.
Humility - This card is amazing. It only impacts Stoneforge Mystic and my flying - but gives me the upper hand with my creatures, especially when paired with Zealous Persecution. I would run this main board if I knew I was going to be playing against creature decks. Unfortunately, it is a dead card against a lot of other decks.
Martyr's Cause - This is a bit of a rotating slot card, but it works well against burn and trample - two things that this deck doesn't like.
Rest in Peace - Stops graveyard decks in their tracks. Unfortunately, it doesn't work well with Lingering Souls, but that is little loss when we are shutting down their deck.
Sundering Growth - Destroy a artifact/enchantment and get a free token out of it.
Vindicate - Destroy anything (even land!) for 3 mana.
Zealous Persecution - Additional copies when playing against creature decks (especially those with x/1s) or when using Humility.
Enlightened Tutor - Great silver bullet fetcher - can grab a pump, Bitterblossom, equipment, or a sideboard/hate card. Despite the technical card disadvantage, it can really set up our plays when needed.
Spear of Heliod - A pump and rattlesnake/removal. This card keeps going in and out of my deck as my opinion on it changes.
Circle of Protection: Red - Great against red decks. This card has been in my deck quite a few times as well, but I keep removing it due to its narrow nature.
Aegis of Honor - In some ways better than Circle of Protection: Red against burn spells, but less versatile overall.
Gather the Townsfolk - Better than Raise the Alarm, except it isn't at instant speed and thus sits out of the deck.
Timely Reinforcements - Good against burn/zoo, but can be situationally a dead card.
Story Circle - A more versatile Circle of Protection: Red, but also more expensive.
Tidehollow Sculler - Discard on a stick, but not permanent and doesn't get pumped by Intangible Virtue and competes for the 2 slot.
Duress - Fantastic discard against burn/control, but tends to be more narrow than the alternatives.
Despise - Great discard against creature decks, but we tend to have better answers to them.
Path of Bravery - Lifegain is nice, but the pump is too situational. This is a card I really want to be good.
Brave the Sands - This is another card that I really want to be good, but don't think it will ever make it. It grants both vigilance as well as the ability for a single token to block 2 creatures, but it reallys needs a pump effect or something additional to make it.
Hero of Bladehold - This card can end games on its own, but costs 4 mana without doing anything for a whole turn.
Tombstalker - Great game ender, but we have better options.
Beckon Apparition - Another great card to combat graveyard decks, but I would only use it if my meta changed to be much more graveyard focused.
Midnight Haunting - Instant speed is amazing, but I need more than 2 tokens for 3 mana in this deck. Potentially better in a control-heavy meta.
Council's Judgment - Great for grabbing hexproof/protection creatures if your meta is bloated with them. Currently, I tend to have other answers that work well (i.e., Zealous Persecution for True-Name Nemesis).
Brimaz, King of Oreskos - Great token maker, but costs 3 mana and doesn't work as well with Intangible Virtue.
Godsend - Great equipment for stonewalling (& removing) creatures, but not sure that it is better than what I have or against what decks I would sideboard it in.
Sword of Fire and Ice - Amazing equipment, but not sure that it is better than what I have or against what decks I would sideboard it in.
Celestial Purge - Great against black & red decks if your meta is bloated with them.
Worship - This could be terrific, but I am not 100% sold on it.
Thunderstaff - This is great for the stonewall/alpha strike strategy and in conjunction with Humility, but has low impact until turns 4/5.
I hope to add more in the future, but please give me your thoughts/opinions to make this deck even better. It is a blast to play as you get a combination of control, mid-range, and token/swarm.
Thanks so much!!
P2: Force that!
P1: Nah, Force that.
P2: Scoop.
I have considered running something like Innocent Blood, but the problem is that when I play Swords to Plowshares, there may be more than one creature in play for them and I usually have a good idea of which I want removed. As for cards like Mother of Runes and True-Name Nemesis, Zealous Persecution works on them both and a whole lot more good x/1s. The lifeloss from Thoughtseize can definitely hurt, but its power often still makes it worth it. Additionally, it is more likely to do hurt the opponent game one when I don't necessarily know what they are running on turn 1. But Cabal Therapy is amazing from the sideboard. I wouldn't be opposed to even playing it mainboard if you expect a certain meta. Hymn to Tourach is also amazing, but yes, the double black is hard on turn 2. Plus, the 2 drop spot is very competitive and I'd rather have something to do turn 1.
Humility is indeed one of the best engines in this deck. Unfortunately, it does little against decks with low creature counts for its mana cost, so I have found myself preferring to bring it in from the sideboard. That being said, I have gone back and forth on this and it might be better in the mainboard - at least in some metas. Additionally, I absolutely love Stoneforge Mystic in this deck. It gives card advantage and the choice between Umezawa's Jitte and Batterskull - both of which I have sometimes preferred. At first I was unsure about how it would play out with Humility, but honestly it makes little difference most games. Humility doesn't come down until turn 4, while we usually play Stoneforge Mystic in the first 3 turns when we have it. Basically, I like to have access to two powerful engines and don't mind siding one for the other either. Also, in complete agreement with you on Cabal Therapy and Zealous Persecution - both are nuts in this deck. I used to also play Enlightened Tutor from the sideboard, but eventually took it out for other slots. I can't say that I have tried Sensei's Divining Top in this deck, but I don't really think that is what this deck wants - it really runs on getting as much as it can out of each card and that seems clunky for this deck - but maybe I am wrong. Lastly, Elspeth, Knight-Errant is great but really gets outclassed by both Sorins IMHO, especially with Humility in play - her pump affects only one creature..
Thanks for all the feedback, you have me experimenting again! Hopefully we can find some room for improvement in this deck!
U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
EDH:
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Fighting for Rivendell
WU Brago, King Eternal, Long Live the King
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Worship the Dragon
Definitely try out the SFM package - I think it gives this deck a nice competitive edge without being too reliant on it and thus scooping to SFM hate. I really like Enlightened Tutor and as I said, I have used it before... honestly, right now if I had one more slot in SB, I would probably put it there. I agree that the silver bullet fetching is more important than the card disadvantage. I've also added it to the first post as I realized it is missing there..
I have loved Sorin, Lord of Innistrad since he was first revealed and even more so in this deck. My favorite is his -2 as it gives a permanent +1/+0 which works fantastic in grind out scenarios - eventually we will have enough to go over the top and win and they can't get rid of the pump. The +1 is amazing in situations where you need life or another token/blocker. When I first saw the new Sorin, Solemn Visitor, I liked him, but couldn't imagine that he would be anywhere as good. But then I was reading in the modern BW Tokens forum and people tried it and said he was amazing vs burn/zoo (2 decks that can be a lot to handle sometimes). So I tried it and LOVED it... honestly, wish I could stick another in the SB. His +1 is what makes him so good - pair that with 2 flying tokens and Intangible Virtue and you can swing for 6 in the air while gaining 6 life and have 2 3/2 lifelink flyers for blocking on their turn - allowing for up to 6 more life against decks like zoo, while possibly killing off 2 creatures with 3 or less toughness. The -2 for a 2/2 flyer is just gravy and gives you another option when lifegain isn't what you really need. He is better at getting you through the early game and into the late game whereas the former is better at overall grinding out the entire game and making you stronger late game. Both have their uses and thus the 2/1 split that I have currently. I am still continuing to test, though, so I might develop a different opinion on time, but hopefully that helps...
I agree and hence this thread. I would say the biggest advantages we have over Modern BW tokens have to do with Humility and our SFM package. Cabal Therapy and Vindicate are nice too, but have less distinction from our Modern relative equivalents. I've been looking for more unfair things to do with this deck with stuff like Humility and am hoping others have ideas too.. This deck is very solid if a bit fair overall.
Modern: WUBValue Titan UMerfolk WGDeath and Taxes
Honestly, having played both, they have some similarities, particularly when using the SFM package. However, this is a token deck and relies far less on creature cards. This results in a different style of game play (aka, the stone wall) and also worsens some of their cards (removal). I think tokens adds a lot more grind/survival ability and makes the deck very lethal at times. And honestly, it is a lot more fun - probably my biggest reason even if the least spike reason. But at a whole, they share a lot, but play very differently. This deck can play more like dead guy with its SFM and control elements or go all aggro/swarm. Additionally, Humility becomes a slam dunk card in this deck and not so much in dead guy.
I really couldn't have said that any better - that really sums up how humility transforms this deck (even when coming in from the SB as with my personal deck). I will add, however, that my deck is heavily white which allows for Spectral Procession turn 3. Most deadguy ale decks I see are heavier black and use Dark Confidant who doesn't go well with a CMC of 6.
This is something I have gone back and forth on and seen others emphatically argue for 23 lands. I don't usually try and race to 4 mana (except when I board in Humility), but never really have trouble getting to it either. I have found that the extra card tends to be better than the extra land most games. I certainly wouldn't fault someone for disagreeing though as I have done that at times myself to experiment. I also saw others running BW token decks in legacy with only 22 lands so I don't think I am alone. One particular deck that I look up to (which also maindecked Humility like you) got 12th in an open back in 2012 - run by Zachary Keith (check it out - great info: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/developing-legacy/181706-bw-tokens). It also ran 22 lands while relying on getting to 4 mana for Humility. Obviously, I go by my own experience and meta more than others, but I think it is doable.
That doesn't look bad at all. I still like my SFM package (won too many games off the back of it), but have been really wanting to put Humility mainboard lately - just not sure what should be moved to the SB for it. I also notice you don't have Raise the Alarm in your mainboard. Admittedly, they are probably our worst token-maker, but coming down on turn 2 can be necessary against some decks and the instant speed is great against control. Any reason for removing (or just not playing) them? Have you used them at all and how did you feel about them?
And mainboard Rest in Peace isn't a bad idea in the current meta - I just don't like losing the second half of Lingering Souls unless I have to. The way I look at it, they lose a 2 card advantage and we lose a 1 card advantage - not sure that is worth it. That being said, I have considered doing this as well. I am also concerned with the current meta (due to Treasure Cruise) diminishing the value of discard - I need to see better how my local meta will settle out with Treasure Cruise.
Thanks! I may be a little different than most with this, but I love being able to have a name for a deck of mine that communicates how it plays... always been more of a rogue player.
I love those plains with the great wall on them... would be quite nice... too bad they cost $15 each - I'll have to save up for them. I might check out other plains out there, too..
Thanks for sharing!!
What do you think of Elspeth Tirel or Hour of Reckoning? Too costly/narrow for Legacy?
I like Raise the Alarm a lot in this deck. Instant speed for surprise blockers or End of Turn use. It also enables early Cabal Therapy flashback.
I have yet to be able to use Vault of the Archangel and I think it may be too slow.
For personal reasons I don't like Stoneforge Mystic with BW tokens. When I use/win with SFM, it just feels like another SFM deck and likely there is already a better shell for SFM (Jace etc). For tournament play certainly would not be a bad idea, but I like Raise the Alarm better.
So akaBuG pretty much nailed all the answers on the head..
Elspeth costs too much, despite being pretty awesome at what she does.
I love Hour of Reckoning and have been very tempted to even 1-of sideboard it, but I never find any room and like akaBuG said, we tend to have pretty good removal options for creatures already... I'd love the following christmas-land scenario, but I don't think it is going to happen a lot:
Turn 1: Land, Discard etc
Turn 2: Land, Intangible Virtue
Turn 3: Land, Spectral Procession
Turn 4: Land, Attack for 6 in the air (vigilant so they don't tapp), cast Hour of Reckoning for 4 and tapping 3 creatures
But I am just not sure that is better than what we can already do with more flexibility... still in my "maybeboard" though..
Glad you are enjoying it! I am coming around to Humility in the mainboard (even with SFM) as I have been testing even more... 2-of with a Enlightened Tutor seems right to me ..
I like Raise the Alarm, but am also very frustrated with them... they tend to be the worst token producer, especially against creature decks IMHO. In my switches, I have actually moved them to the sideboard... Definitely still NEED them in some matchups due to instant speed and being a 2 CMC token producer, but I've liked them far better in the sideboard. Against control decks and some combo decks they come in though for sure.
As for SFM, I may be biased because I love SFM decks, but that is a card I can't imagine taking out unless a major change happens in the meta. I recently tested removing it for the sake of testing everything and it hurt my deck a lot. I think the biggest thing is to view it as more than just a SFM deck... SFM tutors two cards that are critical IMHO to this deck. Umezawa's Jitte is just too good to not be tutorable and I didn't like it as a 2-of. Batterskull is obviously best when it comes down turn 3, but honestly it is so amazing in this deck and is very hard to stop without artifact removal - especially combined with Humility. I'd definitely remove it for some matchups, but most it is a backbone to the deck from my experience - though I welcome other thoughts and experiments... could even be a meta-thing.
I tend to agree with you about Vault of the Archangel - it is a 5-mana "spell".... most games it doesn't do much until I get to late game (when I tend to do better anyway)... However, there have always been those games where it has saved a game out of nowhere so I am hard-pressed to remove it... I am definitely considering dropping it to a 1-of, but I am not sure that I am there yet..
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In general, I have been testing my deck heavily and as said above, made some big changes. The biggest one is to push Raise the Alarm to the sideboard and a Humility package to the mainboard. This has been giving me a 70-80% win percentage against creature-based aggro before sideboarding (which is the most common in my meta). It even does decent against some of the control decks I played against with a 40-60% win percentage against most of those before sideboarding. It still struggles before sideboarding against burn and combo, however. I also am relying more on Sorin, Solemn Visitor than Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, which actually surprised me a bit. My only other concern right now is if I should be pushing for 23 lands instead of 22... most games I am fine, but there are those few games I lose due to needing to mulligan for land or whatnot. But then there are also the times I have too much land, so I am not sure - plus the list is tight right now. Thoughts on this?
Here is my current deck:
1x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
4x Plains
4x Scrubland
1x Swamp
2x Vault of the Archangel
2x Windbrisk Heights
4x Windswept Heath
Creature (3)
3x Stoneforge Mystic
Planeswalker (3)
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Enchantment (10)
4x Bitterblossom
2x Humility
4x Intangible Virtue
Instant (7)
1x Enlightened Tutor
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Zealous Persecution
Sorcery (13)
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
4x Spectral Procession
2x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Humility
3x Raise the Alarm
2x Rest in Peace
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2x Sundering Growth
2x Vindicate
1x Zealous Persecution
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
Any thoughts??? Please let me know what you think!!!
Very cool!
RE: 22/23 lands -
I play 23 lands in modern and I think that's the right number. Things might be different in legacy, but I don't have that knowledge. Looking at your list, the only thing that I would personally WANT to reduce by 1 would be Spectral Procession for a 23rd land.
I see you run Cabal Therapy + Raise the Alarm in the sideboard which is probably a good choice. I run the package main - so either all in the main or all in the side is best.
Personally not a fan of Enlightened Tutor as we are not a combo deck that needs to assemble a critical piece and the card disadvantage is not worth it to me.
Humility is great against aggro and even some Combo decks that use a creature as a piece (Painter's Servant, Reanimator decks, Elves etc). Against certain decks it is of course a dead card but to have most aggro decks scoop when it is resolved is worth it to me.
I don't think I would drop the land count because resolving one of our 4-drops at some point seems critical and we have no other acceleration. Surviving the early game and making it into the mid game is where this deck shines, and that's what makes it fun.
Plus Sorin looks cool with his white hair.
Thanks for your thoughts! I dabbled with BW Tokens in Modern, but not a lot. They do tend to have more 5 CMC spells that would force them to run 23 lands. However, legacy also has more land denial from cards like Wasteland that might also demand 23 lands for some people. Fortunately, that card is being used a bit less right now with the emergence of UR Delver decks - plus my meta tends to have less land denial in general. That being said, I am definitely watching my land count and may need to go up to 23. I've even considered playing Wasteland in this deck, but it doesn't really seem necessary and we need a lot of colored lands.
I've seen a fair amount of players play only 3 Spectral Procession, but I've never quite understood it unless you have a heavier black presence. I mean, I only have 3 lands that can't produce white or fetch white - and 1 of those I am thinking of turning into a plains. Also, with Raise the Alarm in the sideboard, I only have 8 sorceries/instants that produce tokens... not sure I could cut another.
Which brings me to my next thoughts - I love Vault of the Archangel in some games, but am definitely hating getting 2 of them in my hand in some games... thinking of swapping it for a plains.
I totally agree - Cabal Therapy and Raise the Alarm can be nuts against certain decks. I am just preferring them in the sideboard for now (although that might change). I could definitely see you wanting one or both of them in the mainboard in some metas.
I also agree with your sentiments about Enlightened Tutor (see some discussion above) and the decision comes down to whether or not the card selection is better than the card disadvantage. Right now in my current build, I am saying yes to that, especially since we have a lot of card advantage (SFM) and pseudo card advantage (tokens). The big reason I brought it back was for Humility. I like the ability to virtually play 3 copies without having dead copies in my hand. Against counterspells and removal, I do sometimes like a second one, but against most decks I don't need one. Enlightened Tutor enables a pseudo third copy without being a dead card - it can also fetch Bitterblossom, Intangible Virtue, equipment, or sideboard cards.
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On a sidenote (and less competitive level), I have been exploring good art for the plains after akaBuG suggested the APAC plains with the great wall of china. Those are awesome, but also $10-$15+ each... I have traditionally used the mirrodin bladed grass as I find it a sort of threating wall - like large caltrops or something. But in searching, I found that KTK produced one with a fortress/wall that is also nice as well as an old ice age "natural wall" art one... Check them out and let me know what you think!
Thanks for the update! I've been meaning to give an update as well, but it has been pretty busy for me. In answer to your question, I really like a couple Sundering Growth in the sideboard. The double white really does't impact my game very much the way I have my mana. The instant speed is amazing and you get a free token out of it (assuming you already have at least one), so it doesn't slow you down too much either. I view it as a 2-for-1 or better against swords since they lose their sword and you gain a token - for less mana than they spent. And if you do it mid-combat, you might be able to block their creature and kill it. I have't had to SB them in a lot, but when needed, they are amazing. I also have a couple Vindicates in the SB for more flexible destruction. I haven't needed these in the mainboard, so I would just keep them sideboarded - unless you are seeing a lot of swords maindecked in your meta? If so, maybe cut 1 Humility and 1 of the planeswalkers for 2 answers?
Thanks!
Doomed Traveler: I run Cabal Therapy and the synergy has been good for me. A weakness of the deck I thought was turn 1 plays and Doomed Traveler is good even without therapy as a chump before dying and adding to the main strategy.
Brimaz, King of Oreskos: Token maker with Vigilance and a big body this deck sometimes needs.
Stoneforge Mystic: I was not running this before. I've seen the light.
I was running Elspeth but cut her. Both Sorins seem good but I favor the Lord of Innistrad. I cut Vault of the Archangel out as it became more important to guarantee I could cast my 1 drop on turn 1 and I always thought it was too expensive/narrow anyway.
Still playing this deck from time to time and enjoying it.
Any progress or updates to the BW tokens archetype in Legacy since LyMinnh's last post in April?
Almost all of my playable decks were stolen out of my truck in a sh*tty break-in and this idea (tokens in Legacy) re-inspired to brew and collect again.
May be a tough archetype to make work in Legacy but I've been having a lot of fun with it so far and I feel like there is something decent here.
So far, so good. When I lose games... I don't feel like I'm confused as to why nor do I feel like I get blown out. Baby steps, but crawling can be beautiful.
Like I said, glad to have been re-inspired to collect again and to keep playing. Thanks y'all.
As for the Jitte problem, the answer is more removal. They cannot equip a creature if they don't have a creature.