Thanks for all of the information guys. The list I am looking to run is essentially your stock list @ExpiredRascals. My biggest concern is lack of interactive practice. I've been goldfishing a fair amount while I decide if I play it, but I don't have anyone to test it with. I've tried Cockatrice a bit for practice, but people often leave once I start comboing, haha. The more I've thought about, it seems best to have additional mana floating when you cast Reset in case you have to respond to your opponent? It's these situations that I'm likely going to overlook from goldfishing. Regardless, any additional thoughts or recomendations would be appreciated.
In general, you'd like to have spare mana at all times to keep yourself at maximum maneuverability with stuff like remand. The truth however is that you'll often find yourself in situations where you may need to combo off with very slim or no margins. This means that you will typically need to determine what you can afford to play around -- if you can't beat something, you need to play like they don't have it (be careful not to dismiss something as "can't beat" too easily though). I've combo'd out before where I at no point was vulnerable to double spell pierce, and I've also combo'd out with no ability to beat even a single daze -- it all depends on what you can afford at that game state.
Kensai, when is the tournament you're preparing for? I might be able to help you test on trice -- shoot me a PM and we can try to set up a time.
I'm going to assume that if they're about to bolt you for lethal, you go for it regardless. That's the beauty of this deck in that you can wait until the last possible moment to attempt a win.
Please forgive the double post but I do have a question concerning keepable opening hands and nobody has posted to this thread since my last post and I just got the rest of my cards and plan to play this deck on Saturday. So again, please forgive the double post.
I was told by a friend of mine who plays this deck that you would like to have an opening hand with these 3 cards.
Snapcaster Mage
Reset
High Tide
And then hope to draw a snap as you go off to flash back High Tide.
Thoughts? Opinions? There's nothing in the primer on this issue and I want to make sure I mulligan properly when I play this deck.
I tend to keep almost any hand that looks capable of hitting three land drops -- either innately or off cantrips. The deck is all sculpting already and really just wants a large number of cards, so I'm not inclined to use mulligans to sculpt. You should be able to hit what you need so long as you can hit your land drops.
That being said, if I have a hand with five or more lands, I pretty much need it to also have a Brainstorm in order to risk keeping it unless I'm expecting absolutely no pressure.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
I tend to keep almost any hand that looks capable of hitting three land drops -- either innately or off cantrips. The deck is all sculpting and really just wants a large number of cards, so I'm not inclined to use mulligans to sculpt.
So in other words, a hand with 2 land and at least one cantrip, even if it doesn't have a High Tide, Snapcaster Mage or Reset in it is keepable? Seems risky and marginal to me, but then again I'm not comfortable with the deck yet having played Spiral Tide mostly and other storm decks like TES, ANT, Cheerios, etc.
Just don't want to keep hands that really give me no chance of realistically going off by turn 5 which is pretty much the latest I can afford in the local meta I play. Usually by then you're dead or close to it. Fortunately, we don't have a lot of storm in our local meta which is a plus. Lots of Delver, Burn, Infect, Stoneblade and Elves.
I tend to keep almost any hand that looks capable of hitting three land drops -- either innately or off cantrips. The deck is all sculpting and really just wants a large number of cards, so I'm not inclined to use mulligans to sculpt.
So in other words, a hand with 2 land and at least one cantrip, even if it doesn't have a High Tide, Snapcaster Mage or Reset in it is keepable? Seems risky and marginal to me, but then again I'm not comfortable with the deck yet having played Spiral Tide mostly and other storm decks like TES, ANT, Cheerios, etc.
Just don't want to keep hands that really give me no chance of realistically going off by turn 5 which is pretty much the latest I can afford in the local meta I play. Usually by then you're dead or close to it. Fortunately, we don't have a lot of storm in our local meta which is a plus. Lots of Delver, Burn, Infect, Stoneblade and Elves.
The thing is, those cards are pretty bad until you're going off. I'm pretty comfortable going for the combo with just a High Tide or Reset in hand and assuming I'll hit the other, and against significant permission it's typically better to not have one in hand, because it means more of your hand can be interaction when they still have the possibility of cutting off your combo.
Some of this is that you'll need to leap and just assume that a 90% probability is the same as a sure thing and that the ground will meet you as you land, but in my experience it yields better results. The deck is very maneuverable, and if you're locking in 3 "dead" cards to your hand prior to comboing, you're sacrificing your advantage.
EDIT: Also, don't forget how rough the probabilities get if you're hoping to have starting hands with a complete 3-card set in them. If you're running the full playset of a card, you have just under a 40% chance of seeing it in your opening 7. This means that even if you're running a playset of High Tide, Reset, and Snapcaster, well under 7% of your opening 7s will actually meet your stated desired features, and that's before you even look at whether there are lands in the rest of the hand.
EDIT2: And, because I think it's important to note, consider this opening hand:
4 Land (some mix of fetches and Islands), High Tide, Snapcaster Mage, Reset.
This hand is actually quite bad imo. You might keep it, but you shouldn't be happy about it, and I would say that it's very very risky keep. The total lack of filtering means that you have absolutely 0 maneuverability and are actually just waiting at the mercy of your draw steps like non-blue decks need to. Even worse, the hand has no interaction. I can also say that the hand is only marginally better with a Force of Will, because you're not going to be super excited at pitching one of your combo pieces given the difficulty that a hand without filtering will have in finding a replacement.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
I tend to keep almost any hand that looks capable of hitting three land drops -- either innately or off cantrips. The deck is all sculpting and really just wants a large number of cards, so I'm not inclined to use mulligans to sculpt.
So in other words, a hand with 2 land and at least one cantrip, even if it doesn't have a High Tide, Snapcaster Mage or Reset in it is keepable? Seems risky and marginal to me, but then again I'm not comfortable with the deck yet having played Spiral Tide mostly and other storm decks like TES, ANT, Cheerios, etc.
Just don't want to keep hands that really give me no chance of realistically going off by turn 5 which is pretty much the latest I can afford in the local meta I play. Usually by then you're dead or close to it. Fortunately, we don't have a lot of storm in our local meta which is a plus. Lots of Delver, Burn, Infect, Stoneblade and Elves.
The thing is, those cards are pretty bad until you're going off. I'm pretty comfortable going for the combo with just a High Tide or Reset in hand and assuming I'll hit the other, and against significant permission it's typically better to not have one in hand, because it means more of your hand can be interaction when they still have the possibility of cutting off your combo.
Some of this is that you'll need to leap and just assume that a 90% probability is the same as a sure thing and that the ground will meet you as you land, but in my experience it yields better results. The deck is very maneuverable, and if you're locking in 3 "dead" cards to your hand prior to comboing, you're sacrificing your advantage.
EDIT: Also, don't forget how rough the probabilities get if you're hoping to have starting hands with a complete 3-card set in them. If you're running the full playset of a card, you have just under a 40% chance of seeing it in your opening 7. This means that even if you're running a playset of High Tide, Reset, and Snapcaster, well under 7% of your opening 7s will not meet your stated desired features, and that's before you even look at whether there are lands in the rest of the hand.
EDIT2: And, because I think it's important to note, consider this opening hand:
4 Land (some mix of fetches and Islands), High Tide, Snapcaster Mage, Reset.
This hand is actually quite bad imo. You might keep it, but you shouldn't be happy about it, and I would say that it's very very risky keep. The total lack of filtering means that you have absolutely 0 maneuverability and are actually just waiting at the mercy of your draw steps like non-blue decks need to. Even worse, the hand has no interaction. I can also say that the hand is only marginally better with a Force of Will, because you're not going to be super excited at pitching one of your combo pieces given the difficulty that a hand without filtering will have in finding a replacement.
Thanks. This makes a lot of sense. I've been doing a lot of gold fishing with the deck the last couple of days, getting ready for Saturday and I am finding that a hand with more cantrips and even just 2 land is in fact better than a hand I would have normally kept.
Deck plays much differently than Spiral Tide or any other deck I've ever played for that matter and will take me some getting used to.
** EDIT ** Today's Legacy didn't fire off because of SCG Philly, which is just as well.
Been goldfishing this deck a lot this week and find just that (without having to play against disruption) very frustrating.
That is certainly a keepable hand if not amazing. But with 3 draw spells, a mage and a Reset, no reason I shouldn't at least have a chance of starting to go off.
Turn 1 (on the play)
Play island, pass. End of opponent's turn, play Opt, reveal island, keep it on top.
Turn 2
Draw island, play island (keeping fetch in hand until last possible moment in case I draw Brainstorm and need to ship away garbage and shuffle). End of turn, play Impulse. Reveal island, opt, Brainstorm, FoW. Keep Brainstorm. Put rest on bottom and shuffle.
Turn 3
Draw Reset. I now have 2 Resets in my hand. Play fetch but don't crack just yet. End of turn play Brainstorm. Draw DTT, island, FoW. I put back the FoW (don't need it in goldfish scenario) and DTT because right now don't have enough mana or cards in GY to even use it. Crack fetch and get my 3rd island with one in hand. I'll have 4 islands by my turn 4. My goal is to go off on my opponent's turn 6. I figure if I can't by then I'm pretty much dead in most matchups unless it's something like Miracles.
Turn 4
Draw DTT. Now with 4 cards in the yard and 4 lands I at least have a shot to dig for my High Tide, which I have yet to see.
Play island. I now have 4 lands in play with 5 cards in hand
2 Reset
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 DTT
1 Meditate
End of opponent's turn 4, I flash in Snappy targeting Impulse. With that on the stack, I cast Reset to untap the 2 islands I just tapped. now I have 4 untapped and enough mana to cast impulse and maybe find a high tide to cast that and then tap the last land for 2 blue and cast my 2nd reset.
Impulse gets me the following cards
Remand, Opt, island, Snap
Having 2 draw spells in my hand for turn 5, I figured the 5th island is more important than the other cards. This way, with 5 lands, playing a Meditate or even a DTT if I can draw a fetch, if I find a High Tide, I can cast that and still have mana left over to cast my 2nd reset.
Turn 5
Draw fetchland. Perfect. I'll play that instead of island to further fill the yard for DTT. I play the fetch and crack it. I now have 5 islands in play and 5 cards in the yard. I play DTT tapping 3 land and exiling the 5 cards. It gives me the best chance of finding a High Tide.
I dig and get the following 7 cards to choose from.
island
island
FoW
Opt
Cunning Wish
Meditate
Impulse
With only 2 lands open my only play now is to cast my last reset and try one more time go get something. So I do that. I now have 5 lands untapped and a Meditate and island in my hand.
I cast the Meditate. The 4 cards I draw are fetchland, Cunning Wish, Impulse, Brainstorm with 2 lands left to tap. There is now no way to win on this turn but I have a chance to win on my opponent's turn 6.
I'll stop here. I drew blanks for the next turn.
And this was a relatively "good" game.
Most testing I find I either get not enough land, draw spells that fizzle or a High Tide that doesn't have enough support to be useful while it's in my hand.
In short, I find this deck to be very inconsistent and very frustrating. Compare it to Oops, that the last time I played it I went off turn 1 twice in a row, once with mull, once without, and I honestly don't see how people do well with this deck.
Maybe I just have very bad luck. I'm playing Feline's exact build from GPNJ and in about 20 goldfish games I went off in maybe 4 of them by turn 5. Forget turn 3. I don't know how that'e even possible without a God hand.
I find the number of times I even get a High Tide are few and far between. And yes, I shuffle thoroughly.
Here is my shuffle routine that I never deviate from.
Step 1) 7 mash shuffles.
Step 2) Pile shuffle into 8 piles.
Step 3) Take 2 of the 8 piles and overhand shuffle them together. Repeat this process with 2 more piles, and then shuffling them into the first 2 piles, and so on until all 8 piles are shuffled together.
Step 4) 3 more mash shuffles.
Should be sufficient enough but for whatever reason, I rarely draw a High Tide. And yes, I am playing 4 of them.
I am thinking maybe to play 3 main and put one in the board to Cunning Wish with but somebody said that was a bad idea so I don't know.
All I know is this, and I'm far from the worst Magic player in the word (playing since 94), I just can't get this deck to work. I can't even imagine how impossible it would be playing against any kind of disruption like Thoughtseize or Thalia or Counterbalance. I can't even go off goldfishing.
As I've put a considerable amount of time and money into this deck, I'm not going to abandon it, but I'm puzzled as to why it plays so poorly for me.
I'm not sure where your problem is. It seems like you may be overly cautious and just be having bad luck.
If your practice is just goldfishing, try this: Once you have 4 lands out, just start going through the motions. You should draw into the combo pieces and kill more often than not. Then, once you understand how the deck wins, start practicing vs. live decks.
I'm not sure where your problem is. It seems like you may be overly cautious and just be having bad luck.
If your practice is just goldfishing, try this: Once you have 4 lands out, just start going through the motions. You should draw into the combo pieces and kill more often than not. Then, once you understand how the deck wins, start practicing vs. live decks.
Overly cautious? Not even close. Been playing storm decks forever. I try to go off as soon as I can always. Biggest problem with this deck is getting to 4 lands. It rarely happens by turn 4 no matter what I do. I'm only playing 19 lands. 8 fetches and 11 islands. If I have 3 islands by turn 4, I'm happy. And while I know you can go off with 3 lands, it's not easy. You have to have an excellent hand.
Trust me, I understand how the deck wins. It's not terribly different from Spiral Tide or for that matter any storm deck. In fact, I know exactly why I'm having consistency issues with this deck compared to Spiral Tide. It's one card.
This card effectively gives me 8 High Tide in the deck. Without it, Spiral Tide wouldn't even be playable. That's the biggest problem with Solidarity. You only have 4 in the deck and no way to tutor for it. You're relying on nothing but card draw to dig for one. With most decks that have only one key card that must be played to win, that's looking for trouble.
Beclcher has two win conditions. The title card and EtW.
Cheerios has a ridiculous draw engine in Glimpse and something like 30 zero drop creatures.
Oops has 8 cards that win you the game if in your opening hand.
Let's be honest. Solidarity plays a lot of bad cards that don't see play in any other deck because it has to be played at instant speed and those cards are the "best" at what they do. Opt? Impulse? These are not good cards. We can't play Gitaxian, which is better than both of these (no mana needed) because it's a sorcery. Same with Ponder and Preordain.
And let's face it. As cheep as this deck is to build (we don't need CoT's) how many people play it? It's not exactly tearing up Legacy. I wouldn't even call it a tier 1.5 deck.
I've been playing Magic for 20 years plus now. I can tell a consistent deck from an inconsistent deck and this one is the latter. If we could play Merchant Scroll, it would be a no brainer. But we can't.
Been play testing this thing now for over a week. I pretty much know the deck inside and out. You need very specific conditions to even have a chance to go off by turn 4. They're not easy to come by and anything after that, you're probably dead so it doesn't matter. Sure, by turn 6 or 7 I've got what I need to go off. And maybe against a very slow deck I'd have a chance. Only slow decks in Legacy are Lands, Enchantress, Miracles and Ascendancy, which I have also put together.
In fact, I find Ascendancy much more consistent than Solidarity and even that deck I'm not thrilled with. It's almost impossible to go off before turn 4. But if you can manage to survive that long, the deck is pretty consistent. Yes, we need two specific cards to go off, Ascendancy and Fatestitcher. But the card draw and filtering that we have in that deck is insane. Between TC, DTT, Brainstorm, MN and TS, it's difficult not to hit the cards you need. And one Fatestitcher is all you need to get the chain started. In a gold fish bowl, it's pretty much turn 4 to get this thing started on a fairly consistent basis but rarely any sooner.
Again, maybe I am just running into bad luck with Solidarity, but I don't think so. I understand how the deck plays. You can't do anything until you get a High Tide, and with only 4 ways to get it, a shuffle where they are all half way down your library or lower isn't going to get there.
I will of course continue to play test this thing and if I have to, I'll record every game turn by turn and report them all here so you can see exactly what's happening. I am 99% sure I am not making any play errors. I might be keeping sub optimal hands but even that I am skeptical about given what I was told here. Basically, I keep any hand that has at least 2 land and at least 1 draw spell, not counting Meditate because that's a special card because of the skip turn clause. That card I will only use when I'm going off as I don't expect to take another turn.
Essentially, hands I don't keep are 1 landers or hands that have no draw spells. As one person said, a hand with Reset, High Tide and Snapcaster even with 2 lands and no draw spells is a risky keep. In short, this deck does not draw opening hands that are very good all that often and that's the biggest problem. Too many times I'll get the 2 lands. I'll get the draw spells but after 4 turns have gone by I simply will not have drawn a High Tide. Or I'll get the High Tide and the draw but not see a Reset and run out of mana. Too much needs to go right with this deck. There are too many moving parts. It kind of reminds me of old Lands before they printed Thespian Stage and made the Depths combo a lot easier to pull off. Lands is now a much more consistent deck than it used to be, at least in a Gold Fish bowl. Solidarity isn't even close to that kind of consistency.
Anyway, back to my testing. I'll start recording my actual percentages reaching 4 lands, turn number and win rate and see what they look like. I'm sure they're going to be pretty bad.
Also, if you don't think you'll die after giving an opponent a free turn, you can Meditate to set yourself up. Also, sometimes you just have to wish for Blue Sun's Zenith on yourself to grab combo pieces.
I think you just need to run a few more games, from your original post, you only had a very small sample size.
Also, if you don't think you'll die after giving an opponent a free turn, you can Meditate to set yourself up. Also, sometimes you just have to wish for Blue Sun's Zenith on yourself to grab combo pieces.
I think you just need to run a few more games, from your original post, you only had a very small sample size.
Yeah, been playing a lot more and have made some interesting observations over time.
1) The deck seems to have about a 50% going off rate if I wait until turn 5. I don't know how often I can survive that long but if I can last until then, I have a decent shot. Turn 4 appears to be more around 25% to 30%. I've yet to see a turn 3 God hand in quite a few games.
2) Common ways I seem to fizzle with this deck when I can't go off by turn 5.
a) Mana Screw - Running 19 lands I get many 1 land opening hands and have to mull. Many 2 land hands never see that 4th land by turn 5.
b) Bad draws in spite of good land count. This either comes in the form of having High Tides and Resets but running out of draw spells before I have enough of a storm count to go off with Brain Freeze OR having a decent amount of draw, if not great and not finding one of the two key cards. Reset seems to be more important than High Tide. You can go off with just 2 or 3 total High Tides cast with Snap flashback but without Reset to continue the chain, you're screwed. This brings me to the biggest problem with this deck that Spiral Tide doesn't have.
3) There are no tutors in this deck outside of Cunning Wish. Therefore, you have just 4 High Tide and 4 Reset. Without Merchant Scroll, this makes getting the cards you need literally 50% more difficult. There is no way around this other than to just draw, draw and draw. But if your key cards are buried away in your deck or get reshuffled to another place because of fetch or Impulse, you're pretty much screwed. What I like about Time Spiral is that it gets everything back. So if you only drew one of a card and desperately needed a second, TS gives you a good chance of getting it with a new hand of 7.
Don't get me wrong. Spiral Tide has its drawbacks too. You can't wait until just before you're about to be killed. You have to pick your spot and go for it. Sometimes you pick wrong or wait too long. As the inactive player, you really don't have anything you can do.
At least I am starting to see some more consistency out of the deck having played a lot more games. I'll bring this to an event and see how it goes. If nothing else, I pretty much understand this deck well enough to pilot it as long as don't run into any of the 3 problems I outlined above.
For the record, my Spiral Tide win ratio is only around 33% so it's not like I'm tearing things up with that deck. If I do at least as well playing Solidarity, I'll be content.
You draw high tide 40% of the time in the opener with 4 in the deck. Impulse, brainstorm, opt are all great at finding it. I have been crushing people with this deck occasionally I get land screwed but typically I can make land drops just fine. Winning with 3 lands requires a specific hand but I have done it multiple times in all the tournaments I have attended with this post dig mainly because snapcaster allows for additional high tides more easily and snap is untapping 2 lands every time regardless of how many you have. Another example I'll make is infernal tutor in ANT. They absolutely need to find infernal tutor to win typically just like this deck and high tide. Impulse digs the same number of cards as ponder but it also ensures you don't draw cards put on the bottom whereas ponder shuffle can draw you any of the top 3 that you shuffled away. Brainstorm is equal to brainstorm naturally. Opt digs a card deeper than gitaxian probe. So I don't buy that you can't find high tide when we run 12 cantrips same as ANT and all of them dig the same amount or more. Luck is a factor indeed but your sample size in terms of statistics is too small. If you run 500 games you'll draw high tide more often because statistics don't lie. Pile shuffling is unnecessary I never do it with legacy decks short of decks all being completely sorted via deckcheck or something. Pile shuffling achieves virtually nothing. I broke the habit of pile shuffling and I notice nothing different in terms of opening hands, oddities I find when fetching like 3 LED clumped together is just as likely to occur whether you pile shuffle or not. I think this deck is a real contender I've beaten all the tier 1 decks with this one be it miracles, ANT, UR delver the only matchup I've had trouble with is burn but if burn was really that represented we can make it a 90/10 matchup in 2 seconds by adding a lot of hydroblasts and blue elemental blasts to the SB.
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You draw high tide 40% of the time in the opener with 4 in the deck. Impulse, brainstorm, opt are all great at finding it. I have been crushing people with this deck occasionally I get land screwed but typically I can make land drops just fine. Winning with 3 lands requires a specific hand but I have done it multiple times in all the tournaments I have attended with this post dig mainly because snapcaster allows for additional high tides more easily and snap is untapping 2 lands every time regardless of how many you have. Another example I'll make is infernal tutor in ANT. They absolutely need to find infernal tutor to win typically just like this deck and high tide. Impulse digs the same number of cards as ponder but it also ensures you don't draw cards put on the bottom whereas ponder shuffle can draw you any of the top 3 that you shuffled away. Brainstorm is equal to brainstorm naturally. Opt digs a card deeper than gitaxian probe. So I don't buy that you can't find high tide when we run 12 cantrips same as ANT and all of them dig the same amount or more. Luck is a factor indeed but your sample size in terms of statistics is too small. If you run 500 games you'll draw high tide more often because statistics don't lie. Pile shuffling is unnecessary I never do it with legacy decks short of decks all being completely sorted via deckcheck or something. Pile shuffling achieves virtually nothing. I broke the habit of pile shuffling and I notice nothing different in terms of opening hands, oddities I find when fetching like 3 LED clumped together is just as likely to occur whether you pile shuffle or not. I think this deck is a real contender I've beaten all the tier 1 decks with this one be it miracles, ANT, UR delver the only matchup I've had trouble with is burn but if burn was really that represented we can make it a 90/10 matchup in 2 seconds by adding a lot of hydroblasts and blue elemental blasts to the SB.
The more I'm playing this the more I'm starting to see things evening out in the long run. I still don't feel the same kind of security that I feel when I play something like DnT, Jund, Delver or Stoneblade. But I guess that's normal when comparing a combo deck to an aggro or control/tempo deck. Also, as combo decks go, it's arguably the slowest.
Anyway, we'll see how it goes when I play it. I'll report back and let everybody know.
I'm really happy to see this thread, perhaps my deck can be dusted off again. Dig Through Time is a really nice addition.
Now I only need some Snapcaster Mages to have it ready for battle. They are a pain in the wallet.
Well, I took the deck out for a test run last night at FNM before today's Legacy event, which it looks like I won't be able to make again because it snowed, and I did surprisingly well going 3-1. I discovered that you really have more time to prepare for going off than you think. Not everybody gets god hands that can kill you in 2 or 3 turns. Sometimes it's turn 5 before they're about to swing for lethal and you've got at least a decent enough hand to attempt to go off.
Dig Through Time is key in this deck. Being able to dig 7 cards down, it's almost impossible not to find what you need to continue the chain. Mana doesn't matter much when you can Cunning Wish for Brain Freeze just enough to mill them out and then second Wish for the BSZ to have them draw. By that time, 4 mana left in your pool is more than enough, though I did have one game where I generated enough to just BSZ them for their entire deck.
Hitting your land drops is not only key but critical. You just can't miss them. I've discovered that what you have in your opening hand almost doesn't matter as long as you're making your land drops. You will find draw spells over the course of 5 turns and those draw spells will find the High Tides and Resets you need to keep things going. Having faith in the deck is important. Yeah, I had a couple of weird games where I got mana flooded or screwed. But once I got things going, it was very difficult not to go off.
One other thing. Don't be afraid to Wish for BSZ to use on yourself if you're caught in a pickle and have no other way to draw cards. That saved me one game where the only card I had left in my hand that could even remotely give me another draw spell was Wish. I cast BSZ for X=12, leaving just enough mana in my pool to cast the Reset I had in hand, and the cards I drew enabled me to easily go off from there.
Hope I can make it out today but if not, at least I know this deck can get the job done nicely.
** EDIT **
Wanted to report back my Saturday results. Small gathering, 4 rounds.
Round 1 - VS DnT
Match was brutal. Game 1 I had to deal with turn 1 Vial and turn 2 Thalia with CoS making it uncounterable. Add Mother and it was an impossible match. Game 2 was even worse as I had to deal with Thalia, Mother and Cannonist. In short, I didn't get to play Magic for 2 games.
Round 2 - Bye
Round 3 - VS Pox
I thought this was going to be a good matchup for me as Pox is slow. Game 1 he lands 3 Mishras forcing me to go off with just 3 land (because of Small Pox and Sinkhole). Amazingly, I was able to do just that and took game 1.
Game 2 he simply destroyed my hand and land base between Hymn, Inquisition and Sinkhole.
Game 3 was more of the same. I simply could not keep any resources. Losing 3 Reset to the yard didn't help either. Never saw a High Tide that whole game.
Round 4 - VS UR Delver
Game 1 I manage to fight through a Daze and some split card that taps your land and go off easily
Game 2 he lands an early Pyromancer, generates 7 tokens and forces me to go off way earlier than I would have liked. Wiffed as he swung for lethal.
Game 3 I have a god hand. Looks good. Just waiting for my moment. I attempt to go off. Unfortunately, I didn't have any counter magic and he was packing a Daze, FoW and Spell Pierce. Between that and his Swiftspear. I didn't have a chance. He stopped every key spell of mine and my Brainstorm attempt to find FoW drew me 3 lands. That's the kind of luck I usually have in these positions.
So I went 1-3 because of the bye.
In a vacuum, the deck drew well. I had many winnable games, but trying to fight through taxing effects, LD and card denial, and a ridiculously fast clock backed up by tons of counter magic is not easy.
As combo decks go, this is not one of the fastest. You have to have a god hand to go off with 3 land. By 4, in most cases, you're almost dead. And if you have to fight through all that hate, it just makes things all the more difficult.
I enjoyed playing the deck and think I piloted it as well as I could. I maybe made one error in judgment the entire day when I tried to Brainstorm for a FoW instead of just casting another High Tide AFTER the FoW. (I had 2 in hand.) But with only 2 lands left untapped after doing that, I only will have 4 mana available and my cards in hand wouldn't have been enough to continue any kind of chain beyond maybe 1 more spell. Finding out afterwards that he had a Spell Pierce in hand made it all a moot point. When he saw what i was playing after beating him game 1, he simply boarded in a ton of permission. As I only run 4 FoW, 2 Remand and 1 PoN, There was no way I was out countering 4 FoW, 4 Daze and 3 Spell Pierce.
And let's be fair. If this deck was really strong, we'd be seeing it in the top 16 more often. Heck, at all even. Checking SCG's database, it has 1 deck listed at 408th place. That's it. So either nobody is playing this deck or those who do simply don't do well with it.
Having said all that, I will continue to play and tweak this deck. Maybe I'll simply board in more permission against tempo and other blue based decks. Maybe I'll start running Peek just so I can see what I'm up against. I can put those in the board as well and maybe replace my Opts with them.
Not sure exactly how I'm going to go about trying to improve this deck, but I'll figure it out.
Hi. I was wondering how this deck can compete against any white deck (namely death & taxes) with Spirit of the Labyrinth in their decks.
In my opinion, this deck doesn't match up favorably against D&T decks and after sideboard, your strategy becomes very obvious. I think that's the reason why I wouldn't go with decks that respond to opponents' plays.
I'm not trying to deter anyone from playing this, but I'm just not finding any answers to Spirit.
Hi. I was wondering how this deck can compete against any white deck (namely death & taxes) with Spirit of the Labyrinth in their decks.
In my opinion, this deck doesn't match up favorably against D&T decks and after sideboard, your strategy becomes very obvious. I think that's the reason why I wouldn't go with decks that respond to opponents' plays.
I'm not trying to deter anyone from playing this, but I'm just not finding any answers to Spirit.
From my limited experience, DnT is an abysmal matchup. I don't see any way to win it unless they just draw poorly.
Spirit hasn't really been an issue for me in practice. Your DTTs and Impulses ignore it completely, and your opts can be timed around it on all except the combo turn. As long as you can keep D&T from establishing Mom protection or vial acceleration (since it removes their mana chokepoints in the application of lock pieces) you should be able to combo them off with little issue. Just board in your bounce, and go for the combo as soon as they are resolving a piece you can't deal with.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
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ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
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ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
I was wondering, are there any answers to DnT type of decks from the blue side. Wizards has printed so many cards recently for White that hoses Blue decks. Even without Spirit of the Labyrinth, they already have many viable answers to blue decks.
I have some more general thoughts and questions I figured I would add.
1. Is there possible viability to Intuition? It allows you to essentially tutor for 3x spell or a combo of snapcaster and spell(s). Granted 3 mana is expenssive, but tutoring is extremely strong. It wouldn't fit into any of the cantrip slots though given its cost, and would eat slots from Meditate or maybe even Cunning Wish.
2. Opt really bothers me on principle, but I don't think there are any more effective alternatives at the 1 slot for instant speed.
I was wondering, are there any answers to DnT type of decks from the blue side. Wizards has printed so many cards recently for White that hoses Blue decks. Even without Spirit of the Labyrinth, they already have many viable answers to blue decks.
We specifically have the advantage over them purely on maneuverability. Being able to do whatever we need over a vial activation or a hatebear on the stack is huge. DTT dodging both thalia and Spirit of the Labyrinth is also rather handy. And in my experience, we're able to tempo them out pretty easily in most games.
I have some more general thoughts and questions I figured I would add.
1. Is there possible viability to Intuition? It allows you to essentially tutor for 3x spell or a combo of snapcaster and spell(s). Granted 3 mana is expenssive, but tutoring is extremely strong. It wouldn't fit into any of the cantrip slots though given its cost, and would eat slots from Meditate or maybe even Cunning Wish.
2. Opt really bothers me on principle, but I don't think there are any more effective alternatives at the 1 slot for instant speed.
Due to the non-recursive nature of Solidarity (due to the lack of Spiral), I don't think that intuition is a good fit. If you intuition for Reset for example, you may get more mana now, but you're probably fizzling since you have at most one remaining in the deck. Most spells you'd tutor for, you'd rather just cantrip into anyway.
As to Opt, I think it's one of the most integral cards to the deck. I initially was cold on it due to comparisons to the sorcery speed cantrips in spiral tide (ponder and preordain), but as I've played with it more, I've come to appreciate how differently it plays in practice. Being Scry 1 instead of 2 is obviously a downgrade from preordain, but being instant speed means that it's actually very good in the early turns since you never need to wonder whether to sculpt or hold open mana to potentially fluster a hymn for example in the early turns. At this point, I would actually even call Opt the best cantrip in the context of the rest of the deck, and if I had the option to run additional copies of opt or brainstorm beyond the legal 4 copies, additional copies of Opt would actually win for me in Solidarity (nowhere else, obviously though).
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
I started goldfishing with this tonight (Feline Longmore's list), and also got in a quick game with some friends (just some multiplayer shenanigans, swept the table turn 8 with double brainfreeze). I did have a few questions:
1) A few times during the goldfish, I would be on 5-6 lands, go to cantrip EOT, then hit all my combo pieces (i consider this the ability to go 2x high tide 2x Reset and either a meditate or a DTT where I want to be, snapcaster as necessary). I would play it out as immediatly switching into "going off" mode, but is this necessarily the right play, or should I wait?
2) At what point do we consider a hand to be too bad to keep? With all the cantrips, we should be able to dig for what we need, but I've ran into a few hands that just flooded out hard, even through that. In other words, what's the minimum we look for to keep a hand?
3) Do we run out our fetches or our basics first?
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Playing fetches or basics first depends greatly on your hand in general and whether the opponent has stifle in their deck. If you don't have brainstorm I'd run out fetches first assuming you have multiple fetches. If you have island + fetch in your opener for example alongside opt and impulse I would play fetch and fetch before opting and impulsing a turn later. Sometimes you want cards you bottom off of opt or impulse but have to bottom them to find lands. Cantripping optimally is an art in all decks in legacy but even moreso in this one I would argue due to the bottom features of opt, impulse, and dig through time. I could write a whole article on it honestly.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
So, I've got a fair bit of Solidarity built(just missing some of the cheap stuff, like opts, and turnabout, so those'll be bought tues), and I must say, goldfishing it has been fun/interesting. I've yet to play it vs a gauntlet or vs anyone other than myself (just did a few tests vs my other fringe decks I have). Was wondering if there's any changes/suggestions people MAY have for my list (I can try explaining some cards chosen, not 100% with the list, and for now not too worried about a budget, theres only 1 night a month for legacy at my lgs, otherwise we just host our own mini-tourn).
Definitely not going to call my version "the version", or an optimal build, I started the deck when Losset was playing it, and now I just realized I have all the 'big' cards for it, so I can add it to my list of "playable decks". I remember from days gone by, that I took this to a mini-tourn we had (4 rounds), got slaughtered by burn, but managed a win vs Miracles (2-1, card I lost to was Counterbalance), lost against BUG Control (0-2), and 'beat' Oops all Spells (2-0, yay Force of Will).
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Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
You definitely should be packing the full playset each of Meditate and Dig Through Time in your 75. From my experience, I can say with reasonable certainty that the split should be 4 DTT and 3 Meditate in the main and the fourth meditate in the board.
Looking at your list, I think you're leaning way too hard on Cunning Wish. You're placing your best draw spell (DTT), your best untap spell (Reset), and your mana generator (High Tide) in the sideboard. Not only is this diluting your efficient and powerful cards to draw into (remember as well that many of these spells are only so good because of their efficiency), but it's reducing your ability to play a reactive game (Solidarity's primary strength). Also, do not forget that tipping your hand by wishing prior to your combo turn is a VERY bad thing to rely upon with this deck because the opponent almost always will get an untap and draw step prior to you attempting to leverage that into a kill. Revealing that you're wishing for high tide or something similar demonstrates that you are ready to kill and that it is one of the cards in your hand. This is information that you're rather not reveal (especially if the opponent is playing a deck with Vendillion Clique). Let's not forget that even with all the above in consideration, you still likely need double cunning wish to represent an instantaneous kill (barring an opposing draw spell trapped on the stack). I would cut a cunning wish and move all four resets and high tides to the main. If you want to board a high tide out postboard, that can be fine, but it's to up to your judgement at that point.
The three turnabouts are more than I wanted or could fit in, but I know that BC has liked keeping two in the main, so I think they are a matter of taste.
I think you really need two brain freeze in your 75. It's up to you if you put one in the main (I did not initially, but a friend went through great lengths to get me to try it and I have found it to be quite strong -- to the point that a single copy is a mainstay of my starting 60), but you definitely need to be able to have in your 60 and one left in the SB during postboard games.
I think that you'll find 20 lands to be too many. I would under no circumstances play more than 19, and I strongly recommend not playing more than 18 (I only play 17, personally).
The lack of Snap in the maindeck seems like it will make you relatively weak to resolved hatebears. In fact, I don't see how you can beat even a single resolved meddling mage. Thalia and other hatebears look like they'd be similarly problematic.
Lastly, I strongly recommend trying out Snapcaster Mage. It does unfortunately make you care a bit more about stuff like opposing Deathrite Shamans, but the upside can be huge (especially if you also add Snap).
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
I'm going to assume that if they're about to bolt you for lethal, you go for it regardless. That's the beauty of this deck in that you can wait until the last possible moment to attempt a win.
I was told by a friend of mine who plays this deck that you would like to have an opening hand with these 3 cards.
Snapcaster Mage
Reset
High Tide
And then hope to draw a snap as you go off to flash back High Tide.
Thoughts? Opinions? There's nothing in the primer on this issue and I want to make sure I mulligan properly when I play this deck.
Thanks.
That being said, if I have a hand with five or more lands, I pretty much need it to also have a Brainstorm in order to risk keeping it unless I'm expecting absolutely no pressure.
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So in other words, a hand with 2 land and at least one cantrip, even if it doesn't have a High Tide, Snapcaster Mage or Reset in it is keepable? Seems risky and marginal to me, but then again I'm not comfortable with the deck yet having played Spiral Tide mostly and other storm decks like TES, ANT, Cheerios, etc.
Just don't want to keep hands that really give me no chance of realistically going off by turn 5 which is pretty much the latest I can afford in the local meta I play. Usually by then you're dead or close to it. Fortunately, we don't have a lot of storm in our local meta which is a plus. Lots of Delver, Burn, Infect, Stoneblade and Elves.
The thing is, those cards are pretty bad until you're going off. I'm pretty comfortable going for the combo with just a High Tide or Reset in hand and assuming I'll hit the other, and against significant permission it's typically better to not have one in hand, because it means more of your hand can be interaction when they still have the possibility of cutting off your combo.
Some of this is that you'll need to leap and just assume that a 90% probability is the same as a sure thing and that the ground will meet you as you land, but in my experience it yields better results. The deck is very maneuverable, and if you're locking in 3 "dead" cards to your hand prior to comboing, you're sacrificing your advantage.
EDIT: Also, don't forget how rough the probabilities get if you're hoping to have starting hands with a complete 3-card set in them. If you're running the full playset of a card, you have just under a 40% chance of seeing it in your opening 7. This means that even if you're running a playset of High Tide, Reset, and Snapcaster, well under 7% of your opening 7s will actually meet your stated desired features, and that's before you even look at whether there are lands in the rest of the hand.
EDIT2: And, because I think it's important to note, consider this opening hand:
4 Land (some mix of fetches and Islands), High Tide, Snapcaster Mage, Reset.
This hand is actually quite bad imo. You might keep it, but you shouldn't be happy about it, and I would say that it's very very risky keep. The total lack of filtering means that you have absolutely 0 maneuverability and are actually just waiting at the mercy of your draw steps like non-blue decks need to. Even worse, the hand has no interaction. I can also say that the hand is only marginally better with a Force of Will, because you're not going to be super excited at pitching one of your combo pieces given the difficulty that a hand without filtering will have in finding a replacement.
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Thanks. This makes a lot of sense. I've been doing a lot of gold fishing with the deck the last couple of days, getting ready for Saturday and I am finding that a hand with more cantrips and even just 2 land is in fact better than a hand I would have normally kept.
Deck plays much differently than Spiral Tide or any other deck I've ever played for that matter and will take me some getting used to.
** EDIT ** Today's Legacy didn't fire off because of SCG Philly, which is just as well.
Been goldfishing this deck a lot this week and find just that (without having to play against disruption) very frustrating.
Here's a perfect example of a typical hand.
Opening Hand:
2 Lands (1 fetchland, 1 Island)
1 Reset
1 Opt
1 Impulse
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Meditate
That is certainly a keepable hand if not amazing. But with 3 draw spells, a mage and a Reset, no reason I shouldn't at least have a chance of starting to go off.
Turn 1 (on the play)
Play island, pass. End of opponent's turn, play Opt, reveal island, keep it on top.
Turn 2
Draw island, play island (keeping fetch in hand until last possible moment in case I draw Brainstorm and need to ship away garbage and shuffle). End of turn, play Impulse. Reveal island, opt, Brainstorm, FoW. Keep Brainstorm. Put rest on bottom and shuffle.
Turn 3
Draw Reset. I now have 2 Resets in my hand. Play fetch but don't crack just yet. End of turn play Brainstorm. Draw DTT, island, FoW. I put back the FoW (don't need it in goldfish scenario) and DTT because right now don't have enough mana or cards in GY to even use it. Crack fetch and get my 3rd island with one in hand. I'll have 4 islands by my turn 4. My goal is to go off on my opponent's turn 6. I figure if I can't by then I'm pretty much dead in most matchups unless it's something like Miracles.
Turn 4
Draw DTT. Now with 4 cards in the yard and 4 lands I at least have a shot to dig for my High Tide, which I have yet to see.
Play island. I now have 4 lands in play with 5 cards in hand
2 Reset
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 DTT
1 Meditate
End of opponent's turn 4, I flash in Snappy targeting Impulse. With that on the stack, I cast Reset to untap the 2 islands I just tapped. now I have 4 untapped and enough mana to cast impulse and maybe find a high tide to cast that and then tap the last land for 2 blue and cast my 2nd reset.
Impulse gets me the following cards
Remand, Opt, island, Snap
Having 2 draw spells in my hand for turn 5, I figured the 5th island is more important than the other cards. This way, with 5 lands, playing a Meditate or even a DTT if I can draw a fetch, if I find a High Tide, I can cast that and still have mana left over to cast my 2nd reset.
Turn 5
Draw fetchland. Perfect. I'll play that instead of island to further fill the yard for DTT. I play the fetch and crack it. I now have 5 islands in play and 5 cards in the yard. I play DTT tapping 3 land and exiling the 5 cards. It gives me the best chance of finding a High Tide.
I dig and get the following 7 cards to choose from.
island
island
FoW
Opt
Cunning Wish
Meditate
Impulse
With only 2 lands open my only play now is to cast my last reset and try one more time go get something. So I do that. I now have 5 lands untapped and a Meditate and island in my hand.
I cast the Meditate. The 4 cards I draw are fetchland, Cunning Wish, Impulse, Brainstorm with 2 lands left to tap. There is now no way to win on this turn but I have a chance to win on my opponent's turn 6.
I'll stop here. I drew blanks for the next turn.
And this was a relatively "good" game.
Most testing I find I either get not enough land, draw spells that fizzle or a High Tide that doesn't have enough support to be useful while it's in my hand.
In short, I find this deck to be very inconsistent and very frustrating. Compare it to Oops, that the last time I played it I went off turn 1 twice in a row, once with mull, once without, and I honestly don't see how people do well with this deck.
Maybe I just have very bad luck. I'm playing Feline's exact build from GPNJ and in about 20 goldfish games I went off in maybe 4 of them by turn 5. Forget turn 3. I don't know how that'e even possible without a God hand.
I find the number of times I even get a High Tide are few and far between. And yes, I shuffle thoroughly.
Here is my shuffle routine that I never deviate from.
Step 1) 7 mash shuffles.
Step 2) Pile shuffle into 8 piles.
Step 3) Take 2 of the 8 piles and overhand shuffle them together. Repeat this process with 2 more piles, and then shuffling them into the first 2 piles, and so on until all 8 piles are shuffled together.
Step 4) 3 more mash shuffles.
Should be sufficient enough but for whatever reason, I rarely draw a High Tide. And yes, I am playing 4 of them.
I am thinking maybe to play 3 main and put one in the board to Cunning Wish with but somebody said that was a bad idea so I don't know.
All I know is this, and I'm far from the worst Magic player in the word (playing since 94), I just can't get this deck to work. I can't even imagine how impossible it would be playing against any kind of disruption like Thoughtseize or Thalia or Counterbalance. I can't even go off goldfishing.
As I've put a considerable amount of time and money into this deck, I'm not going to abandon it, but I'm puzzled as to why it plays so poorly for me.
If your practice is just goldfishing, try this: Once you have 4 lands out, just start going through the motions. You should draw into the combo pieces and kill more often than not. Then, once you understand how the deck wins, start practicing vs. live decks.
Overly cautious? Not even close. Been playing storm decks forever. I try to go off as soon as I can always. Biggest problem with this deck is getting to 4 lands. It rarely happens by turn 4 no matter what I do. I'm only playing 19 lands. 8 fetches and 11 islands. If I have 3 islands by turn 4, I'm happy. And while I know you can go off with 3 lands, it's not easy. You have to have an excellent hand.
Trust me, I understand how the deck wins. It's not terribly different from Spiral Tide or for that matter any storm deck. In fact, I know exactly why I'm having consistency issues with this deck compared to Spiral Tide. It's one card.
Merchant Scroll
This card effectively gives me 8 High Tide in the deck. Without it, Spiral Tide wouldn't even be playable. That's the biggest problem with Solidarity. You only have 4 in the deck and no way to tutor for it. You're relying on nothing but card draw to dig for one. With most decks that have only one key card that must be played to win, that's looking for trouble.
ANT and TES have Infernal Tutor to search for Ad Nauseam and Burning Wish to get ToA so you don't even have to play it main board.
Beclcher has two win conditions. The title card and EtW.
Cheerios has a ridiculous draw engine in Glimpse and something like 30 zero drop creatures.
Oops has 8 cards that win you the game if in your opening hand.
Let's be honest. Solidarity plays a lot of bad cards that don't see play in any other deck because it has to be played at instant speed and those cards are the "best" at what they do. Opt? Impulse? These are not good cards. We can't play Gitaxian, which is better than both of these (no mana needed) because it's a sorcery. Same with Ponder and Preordain.
And let's face it. As cheep as this deck is to build (we don't need CoT's) how many people play it? It's not exactly tearing up Legacy. I wouldn't even call it a tier 1.5 deck.
I've been playing Magic for 20 years plus now. I can tell a consistent deck from an inconsistent deck and this one is the latter. If we could play Merchant Scroll, it would be a no brainer. But we can't.
Been play testing this thing now for over a week. I pretty much know the deck inside and out. You need very specific conditions to even have a chance to go off by turn 4. They're not easy to come by and anything after that, you're probably dead so it doesn't matter. Sure, by turn 6 or 7 I've got what I need to go off. And maybe against a very slow deck I'd have a chance. Only slow decks in Legacy are Lands, Enchantress, Miracles and Ascendancy, which I have also put together.
In fact, I find Ascendancy much more consistent than Solidarity and even that deck I'm not thrilled with. It's almost impossible to go off before turn 4. But if you can manage to survive that long, the deck is pretty consistent. Yes, we need two specific cards to go off, Ascendancy and Fatestitcher. But the card draw and filtering that we have in that deck is insane. Between TC, DTT, Brainstorm, MN and TS, it's difficult not to hit the cards you need. And one Fatestitcher is all you need to get the chain started. In a gold fish bowl, it's pretty much turn 4 to get this thing started on a fairly consistent basis but rarely any sooner.
Again, maybe I am just running into bad luck with Solidarity, but I don't think so. I understand how the deck plays. You can't do anything until you get a High Tide, and with only 4 ways to get it, a shuffle where they are all half way down your library or lower isn't going to get there.
I will of course continue to play test this thing and if I have to, I'll record every game turn by turn and report them all here so you can see exactly what's happening. I am 99% sure I am not making any play errors. I might be keeping sub optimal hands but even that I am skeptical about given what I was told here. Basically, I keep any hand that has at least 2 land and at least 1 draw spell, not counting Meditate because that's a special card because of the skip turn clause. That card I will only use when I'm going off as I don't expect to take another turn.
Essentially, hands I don't keep are 1 landers or hands that have no draw spells. As one person said, a hand with Reset, High Tide and Snapcaster even with 2 lands and no draw spells is a risky keep. In short, this deck does not draw opening hands that are very good all that often and that's the biggest problem. Too many times I'll get the 2 lands. I'll get the draw spells but after 4 turns have gone by I simply will not have drawn a High Tide. Or I'll get the High Tide and the draw but not see a Reset and run out of mana. Too much needs to go right with this deck. There are too many moving parts. It kind of reminds me of old Lands before they printed Thespian Stage and made the Depths combo a lot easier to pull off. Lands is now a much more consistent deck than it used to be, at least in a Gold Fish bowl. Solidarity isn't even close to that kind of consistency.
Anyway, back to my testing. I'll start recording my actual percentages reaching 4 lands, turn number and win rate and see what they look like. I'm sure they're going to be pretty bad.
Also, if you don't think you'll die after giving an opponent a free turn, you can Meditate to set yourself up. Also, sometimes you just have to wish for Blue Sun's Zenith on yourself to grab combo pieces.
I think you just need to run a few more games, from your original post, you only had a very small sample size.
Yeah, been playing a lot more and have made some interesting observations over time.
1) The deck seems to have about a 50% going off rate if I wait until turn 5. I don't know how often I can survive that long but if I can last until then, I have a decent shot. Turn 4 appears to be more around 25% to 30%. I've yet to see a turn 3 God hand in quite a few games.
2) Common ways I seem to fizzle with this deck when I can't go off by turn 5.
a) Mana Screw - Running 19 lands I get many 1 land opening hands and have to mull. Many 2 land hands never see that 4th land by turn 5.
b) Bad draws in spite of good land count. This either comes in the form of having High Tides and Resets but running out of draw spells before I have enough of a storm count to go off with Brain Freeze OR having a decent amount of draw, if not great and not finding one of the two key cards. Reset seems to be more important than High Tide. You can go off with just 2 or 3 total High Tides cast with Snap flashback but without Reset to continue the chain, you're screwed. This brings me to the biggest problem with this deck that Spiral Tide doesn't have.
3) There are no tutors in this deck outside of Cunning Wish. Therefore, you have just 4 High Tide and 4 Reset. Without Merchant Scroll, this makes getting the cards you need literally 50% more difficult. There is no way around this other than to just draw, draw and draw. But if your key cards are buried away in your deck or get reshuffled to another place because of fetch or Impulse, you're pretty much screwed. What I like about Time Spiral is that it gets everything back. So if you only drew one of a card and desperately needed a second, TS gives you a good chance of getting it with a new hand of 7.
Don't get me wrong. Spiral Tide has its drawbacks too. You can't wait until just before you're about to be killed. You have to pick your spot and go for it. Sometimes you pick wrong or wait too long. As the inactive player, you really don't have anything you can do.
At least I am starting to see some more consistency out of the deck having played a lot more games. I'll bring this to an event and see how it goes. If nothing else, I pretty much understand this deck well enough to pilot it as long as don't run into any of the 3 problems I outlined above.
For the record, my Spiral Tide win ratio is only around 33% so it's not like I'm tearing things up with that deck. If I do at least as well playing Solidarity, I'll be content.
Currently Playing:
Retired
The more I'm playing this the more I'm starting to see things evening out in the long run. I still don't feel the same kind of security that I feel when I play something like DnT, Jund, Delver or Stoneblade. But I guess that's normal when comparing a combo deck to an aggro or control/tempo deck. Also, as combo decks go, it's arguably the slowest.
Anyway, we'll see how it goes when I play it. I'll report back and let everybody know.
Dig Through Time is a really nice addition.
Now I only need some Snapcaster Mages to have it ready for battle. They are a pain in the wallet.
Dig Through Time is key in this deck. Being able to dig 7 cards down, it's almost impossible not to find what you need to continue the chain. Mana doesn't matter much when you can Cunning Wish for Brain Freeze just enough to mill them out and then second Wish for the BSZ to have them draw. By that time, 4 mana left in your pool is more than enough, though I did have one game where I generated enough to just BSZ them for their entire deck.
Hitting your land drops is not only key but critical. You just can't miss them. I've discovered that what you have in your opening hand almost doesn't matter as long as you're making your land drops. You will find draw spells over the course of 5 turns and those draw spells will find the High Tides and Resets you need to keep things going. Having faith in the deck is important. Yeah, I had a couple of weird games where I got mana flooded or screwed. But once I got things going, it was very difficult not to go off.
One other thing. Don't be afraid to Wish for BSZ to use on yourself if you're caught in a pickle and have no other way to draw cards. That saved me one game where the only card I had left in my hand that could even remotely give me another draw spell was Wish. I cast BSZ for X=12, leaving just enough mana in my pool to cast the Reset I had in hand, and the cards I drew enabled me to easily go off from there.
Hope I can make it out today but if not, at least I know this deck can get the job done nicely.
** EDIT **
Wanted to report back my Saturday results. Small gathering, 4 rounds.
Round 1 - VS DnT
Match was brutal. Game 1 I had to deal with turn 1 Vial and turn 2 Thalia with CoS making it uncounterable. Add Mother and it was an impossible match. Game 2 was even worse as I had to deal with Thalia, Mother and Cannonist. In short, I didn't get to play Magic for 2 games.
Round 2 - Bye
Round 3 - VS Pox
I thought this was going to be a good matchup for me as Pox is slow. Game 1 he lands 3 Mishras forcing me to go off with just 3 land (because of Small Pox and Sinkhole). Amazingly, I was able to do just that and took game 1.
Game 2 he simply destroyed my hand and land base between Hymn, Inquisition and Sinkhole.
Game 3 was more of the same. I simply could not keep any resources. Losing 3 Reset to the yard didn't help either. Never saw a High Tide that whole game.
Round 4 - VS UR Delver
Game 1 I manage to fight through a Daze and some split card that taps your land and go off easily
Game 2 he lands an early Pyromancer, generates 7 tokens and forces me to go off way earlier than I would have liked. Wiffed as he swung for lethal.
Game 3 I have a god hand. Looks good. Just waiting for my moment. I attempt to go off. Unfortunately, I didn't have any counter magic and he was packing a Daze, FoW and Spell Pierce. Between that and his Swiftspear. I didn't have a chance. He stopped every key spell of mine and my Brainstorm attempt to find FoW drew me 3 lands. That's the kind of luck I usually have in these positions.
So I went 1-3 because of the bye.
In a vacuum, the deck drew well. I had many winnable games, but trying to fight through taxing effects, LD and card denial, and a ridiculously fast clock backed up by tons of counter magic is not easy.
As combo decks go, this is not one of the fastest. You have to have a god hand to go off with 3 land. By 4, in most cases, you're almost dead. And if you have to fight through all that hate, it just makes things all the more difficult.
I enjoyed playing the deck and think I piloted it as well as I could. I maybe made one error in judgment the entire day when I tried to Brainstorm for a FoW instead of just casting another High Tide AFTER the FoW. (I had 2 in hand.) But with only 2 lands left untapped after doing that, I only will have 4 mana available and my cards in hand wouldn't have been enough to continue any kind of chain beyond maybe 1 more spell. Finding out afterwards that he had a Spell Pierce in hand made it all a moot point. When he saw what i was playing after beating him game 1, he simply boarded in a ton of permission. As I only run 4 FoW, 2 Remand and 1 PoN, There was no way I was out countering 4 FoW, 4 Daze and 3 Spell Pierce.
And let's be fair. If this deck was really strong, we'd be seeing it in the top 16 more often. Heck, at all even. Checking SCG's database, it has 1 deck listed at 408th place. That's it. So either nobody is playing this deck or those who do simply don't do well with it.
Having said all that, I will continue to play and tweak this deck. Maybe I'll simply board in more permission against tempo and other blue based decks. Maybe I'll start running Peek just so I can see what I'm up against. I can put those in the board as well and maybe replace my Opts with them.
Not sure exactly how I'm going to go about trying to improve this deck, but I'll figure it out.
In my opinion, this deck doesn't match up favorably against D&T decks and after sideboard, your strategy becomes very obvious. I think that's the reason why I wouldn't go with decks that respond to opponents' plays.
I'm not trying to deter anyone from playing this, but I'm just not finding any answers to Spirit.
From my limited experience, DnT is an abysmal matchup. I don't see any way to win it unless they just draw poorly.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
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My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
1. Is there possible viability to Intuition? It allows you to essentially tutor for 3x spell or a combo of snapcaster and spell(s). Granted 3 mana is expenssive, but tutoring is extremely strong. It wouldn't fit into any of the cantrip slots though given its cost, and would eat slots from Meditate or maybe even Cunning Wish.
2. Opt really bothers me on principle, but I don't think there are any more effective alternatives at the 1 slot for instant speed.
We specifically have the advantage over them purely on maneuverability. Being able to do whatever we need over a vial activation or a hatebear on the stack is huge. DTT dodging both thalia and Spirit of the Labyrinth is also rather handy. And in my experience, we're able to tempo them out pretty easily in most games. Due to the non-recursive nature of Solidarity (due to the lack of Spiral), I don't think that intuition is a good fit. If you intuition for Reset for example, you may get more mana now, but you're probably fizzling since you have at most one remaining in the deck. Most spells you'd tutor for, you'd rather just cantrip into anyway.
As to Opt, I think it's one of the most integral cards to the deck. I initially was cold on it due to comparisons to the sorcery speed cantrips in spiral tide (ponder and preordain), but as I've played with it more, I've come to appreciate how differently it plays in practice. Being Scry 1 instead of 2 is obviously a downgrade from preordain, but being instant speed means that it's actually very good in the early turns since you never need to wonder whether to sculpt or hold open mana to potentially fluster a hymn for example in the early turns. At this point, I would actually even call Opt the best cantrip in the context of the rest of the deck, and if I had the option to run additional copies of opt or brainstorm beyond the legal 4 copies, additional copies of Opt would actually win for me in Solidarity (nowhere else, obviously though).
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
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Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
1) A few times during the goldfish, I would be on 5-6 lands, go to cantrip EOT, then hit all my combo pieces (i consider this the ability to go 2x high tide 2x Reset and either a meditate or a DTT where I want to be, snapcaster as necessary). I would play it out as immediatly switching into "going off" mode, but is this necessarily the right play, or should I wait?
2) At what point do we consider a hand to be too bad to keep? With all the cantrips, we should be able to dig for what we need, but I've ran into a few hands that just flooded out hard, even through that. In other words, what's the minimum we look for to keep a hand?
3) Do we run out our fetches or our basics first?
Nel racconto che ho scritto, puoi volare in libertà
Ecco il mio ultimo incantesimo
affinché la tua luce non conosca ombra
Riposa in pace, Kitzu...
Currently Playing:
Retired
So, I've got a fair bit of Solidarity built(just missing some of the cheap stuff, like opts, and turnabout, so those'll be bought tues), and I must say, goldfishing it has been fun/interesting. I've yet to play it vs a gauntlet or vs anyone other than myself (just did a few tests vs my other fringe decks I have). Was wondering if there's any changes/suggestions people MAY have for my list (I can try explaining some cards chosen, not 100% with the list, and for now not too worried about a budget, theres only 1 night a month for legacy at my lgs, otherwise we just host our own mini-tourn).
4 Brainstorm
2 Flusterstorm
3 High Tide
4 Opt
4 Impulse
3 Remand
3 Reset
4 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
3 Dig Through Time
12 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flusterstorm
1 High Tide
2 Hydroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Brain Freeze
1 Reset
2 Snap
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Rebuild
2 Wipe Away
1 Commandeer
1 Dig Through Time
Definitely not going to call my version "the version", or an optimal build, I started the deck when Losset was playing it, and now I just realized I have all the 'big' cards for it, so I can add it to my list of "playable decks". I remember from days gone by, that I took this to a mini-tourn we had (4 rounds), got slaughtered by burn, but managed a win vs Miracles (2-1, card I lost to was Counterbalance), lost against BUG Control (0-2), and 'beat' Oops all Spells (2-0, yay Force of Will).
Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
Artificer's Intuition Surfing
Prison Pox (8-3-0)
Solidarity (Instant High tide Storm)
Zombardment
Pauper:
Oops all Spells (2-0-0)
Looking at your list, I think you're leaning way too hard on Cunning Wish. You're placing your best draw spell (DTT), your best untap spell (Reset), and your mana generator (High Tide) in the sideboard. Not only is this diluting your efficient and powerful cards to draw into (remember as well that many of these spells are only so good because of their efficiency), but it's reducing your ability to play a reactive game (Solidarity's primary strength). Also, do not forget that tipping your hand by wishing prior to your combo turn is a VERY bad thing to rely upon with this deck because the opponent almost always will get an untap and draw step prior to you attempting to leverage that into a kill. Revealing that you're wishing for high tide or something similar demonstrates that you are ready to kill and that it is one of the cards in your hand. This is information that you're rather not reveal (especially if the opponent is playing a deck with Vendillion Clique). Let's not forget that even with all the above in consideration, you still likely need double cunning wish to represent an instantaneous kill (barring an opposing draw spell trapped on the stack). I would cut a cunning wish and move all four resets and high tides to the main. If you want to board a high tide out postboard, that can be fine, but it's to up to your judgement at that point.
The three turnabouts are more than I wanted or could fit in, but I know that BC has liked keeping two in the main, so I think they are a matter of taste.
I think you really need two brain freeze in your 75. It's up to you if you put one in the main (I did not initially, but a friend went through great lengths to get me to try it and I have found it to be quite strong -- to the point that a single copy is a mainstay of my starting 60), but you definitely need to be able to have in your 60 and one left in the SB during postboard games.
I think that you'll find 20 lands to be too many. I would under no circumstances play more than 19, and I strongly recommend not playing more than 18 (I only play 17, personally).
The lack of Snap in the maindeck seems like it will make you relatively weak to resolved hatebears. In fact, I don't see how you can beat even a single resolved meddling mage. Thalia and other hatebears look like they'd be similarly problematic.
Lastly, I strongly recommend trying out Snapcaster Mage. It does unfortunately make you care a bit more about stuff like opposing Deathrite Shamans, but the upside can be huge (especially if you also add Snap).
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
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Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
I seen what videos I could stand watching, read this thread. Even seen a vintage format version.
Are fetches the way to go?