See, this is what I was afraid of when they unbanned this card.
What is to stop a player, after winning game 1, from doing this game 2.
Play combo on turn 1 or 2 or whenever, without a way to break loop and actually act out every iteration of the loop? Eventually, the game will go to time and that game will end in a draw, leaving no time for game 3.
Or you just get called for slow play. It's a repeated loop of game actions that can't be interrupted and therefore just draws the game.
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How is it slow play when you are acting out every legal action you are able to as quickly as possible?
Is there a definition in the rules for unbreakable game loops drawing the game?
(Just looked it up; yes rule 104.4b)
Once you have demonstrated that one iteration of the loop is unbreakable, that's just a draw.
For loops that are breakable, you must be able to specify the number of iterations and the expected endstate. To do otherwise is slow play. Google "Four Horsemen Legacy" for a lot of in depth discussion about this.
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How is it slow play when you are acting out every legal action you are able to as quickly as possible?
Is there a definition in the rules for unbreakable game loops drawing the game?
(Just looked it up; yes rule 104.4b)
Once you have demonstrated that one iteration of the loop is unbreakable, that's just a draw.
For loops that are breakable, you must be able to specify the number of iterations and the expected endstate. To do otherwise is slow play. Google "Four Horsemen Legacy" for a lot of in depth discussion about this.
So then basically, after winning game 1, you have to go infinite in every game you play after that in order to eventually send the match to time. Correct?
Back to the question:
At what point do we intentionally draw the game? Do we wait for a state where our opponents seem likely to win, or do we use an early opportunity for a 7 card mulligan.
So then basically, after winning game 1, you have to go infinite in every game you play after that in order to eventually send the match to time. Correct?
If the deck doesn't go infinite, it loses. I'm positing that running a draw is a better line of play than waiting a few turns to win. This may result in matches going 0-0-X or 1-0-X. You may be able to play many games in a match.
Back to the question:
At what point do we intentionally draw the game? Do we wait for a state where our opponents seem likely to win, or do we use an early opportunity for a 7 card mulligan.
Somewhere in the middle, imo. Not too early because a counterspell or creature removal sends you packing, and especially in game one, you really want to win the pre-sideboarded game.
But if you're running Dig Through Times like I'm positing and you go off without a win con but with one of those in your hand, there's nothing wrong with trying to win but risking a draw.
In the event that you don't have the gas and are going for the draw, usually you'd wait it out to try and find the win-con, but if you're dead on the board you obviously shoot for the draw. You might also do this if you like had to mulligan to 5 or 4 or something, in order to restart at 7 cards.
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Glad this thread turned me towards Dance of the Dead in order to replace Necromancy. This one goes for the infinite mana win con approach from your reentering land rather than hoping to keep some other permanent in play long enough for it to bounce in and out for the win. On the nonexistent day when your opponent isn't running Force of Will, you can crack turn one wins if you open with a dual-land, Dark Ritual, Entomb, Animate Dead/Dance of the Dead, and Blue Sun's Zenith/Stroke of Genius. I've had that happen more times than you might think. If anyone knows of a preferable alternative to Buried Alive to essentially run more Entombs I'd be grateful. Feedback always appreciated
You guys realize Snapcaster Mage acts as a double way to end the loop, right? And Snap+Entomb enables any wincon you like (sorta, it requires proper sequencing)? All I'm trying to say is that it makes sense to run a couple, not only to reduce the number of potential draws, but to add resiliency.
I've been messing around with the combos, and I really do think that the key will be running "both combos". Griselbrand just gives you so many advantages - not to mention that with accelerants, you can "go off" from a 14-card draw in the same turn! The advantage over Tin Fins is that you have more space for disruption and are generally less fragile, as well as a bit faster on average. What you really have to decide is whether to run discard or permission as disruption, and how much mana accel to run. Personally, I think the permission package is going to be better on average, but I really haven't tested it much at all...
Here's the list I've been kicking around, far from polished, but performing pretty well for a first draft - I decided that the R was worth it for a couple more Careful Study and sideboard options (Pyroblast):
You guys realize Snapcaster Mage acts as a double way to end the loop, right? And Snap+Entomb enables any wincon you like (sorta, it requires proper sequencing)? All I'm trying to say is that it makes sense to run a couple, not only to reduce the number of potential draws, but to add resiliency.
I've been messing around with the combos, and I really do think that the key will be running "both combos". Griselbrand just gives you so many advantages - not to mention that with accelerants, you can "go off" from a 14-card draw in the same turn! The advantage over Tin Fins is that you have more space for disruption and are generally less fragile, as well as a bit faster on average. What you really have to decide is whether to run discard or permission as disruption, and how much mana accel to run. Personally, I think the permission package is going to be better on average, but I really haven't tested it much at all...
Here's the list I've been kicking around, far from polished, but performing pretty well for a first draft - I decided that the R was worth it for a couple more Careful Study and sideboard options (Pyroblast):
Just a random thought - Gemstone Mine seems great for versions of this deck that are splashing a third color. As an untapped, painless, 5-color land, there's virtually no drawback in this deck, since you shouldn't need to use it more than twice before going off.
Just a random thought - Gemstone Mine seems great for versions of this deck that are splashing a third color. As an untapped, painless, 5-color land, there's virtually no drawback in this deck, since you shouldn't need to use it more than twice before going off.
Really good thought! And when you start bouncing all your lands with the combo for the infinite mana the counters will keep resetting.
I tried a Lotus Petal Reanimator-like Worldgorger list. At first, I tried 4 Read the Runes and 0 Necromancy, but I tried some games on Cockatrice against Deathblade (against myself) and couldn't beat a non-summoning sick Deathrite with green mana up. I'm now convinced that if this deck wants to beat a non-summoning sick Deathrite in Game 1, it needs removal, Cunning Wish for removal, Pithing Needle, or Necromancy and a lot of mana and possibly luck. (On the other hand, Reanimator could at least Careful Study two guys into the yard, then Exhume, and Deathrite could only suck up one guy in response.)
Also, here are some worst-case timing scenarios for disruption against us:
Swords to Plowshares:
StP Worldgorger in response to its ETB trigger and its LTB trigger will go off too early, returning nothing to the battlefield. Then, its ETB trigger will exile all our permanents. This is the Nightmare Effect in action, everybody, and it doesn't bode well for us.
Abrupt Decay:
Abrupt Decay Animate Dead in response to Worldgorger's ETB trigger and Worldgorger will die on the spot, so its LTB trigger will go off too early and we get the Nightmare Effect all over again.
It is because Decay blows us out so hard that I recommend targeted discard or Cabal Therapy maindeck.
I was thinking about the possibilities of this deck all night at work and had some interesting ideas. It could be run as an Intuition deck and make your opponent choose what style of reanimator you will play. If you Intuition for WGD, Griselbrand, and Iona (or Elesh Norn) you put the opponent in a very odd situation. Also because there are three enchantments that can reanimate your WGD to start the combo you can Intuition for those as well if need be. Being an Intuition deck means less need to run as many of the animate spells and gives more room for disruption like FoW, Misdirection and maybe even some dig spells like Ponder or Brainstorm.
Altar of the Brood could be quite good in that it will mill your opponent out (in most cases) and also give you a creature in their yard to target (assuming they aren't creatureless) to break the loop.
Faerie Macabre would be a good way to end the combo.
Another less than stellar idea was Abundant Growth for infinite card draw in addition to infinite mana.
All-in-all it seems like there is a lot of potential, but likely isn't any stronger than either Tin-Fins and classic Reanimator... I might still work on a list just for funsies
My first rough list for dragon is this one. The best answer to plow, decay, etc. etc. is probably misdirection or discard works too. I wouldn't dabble with piranha marsh, codex shredder, and/or ambassador laquatus when nephalia drownyard is the perfect card for this role since if they have eldrazi you can mill yourself until you hit oona/exile their whole deck or if the game goes long drownyarding yourself to find a dragon, oona, or as a brainstorm shuffle effect is quite useful. Entering untapped is huge. Piranha marsh enters tapped/only really good when combo'ing as 1 damage before combo'ing is meaningless short of your opponent being at 1 life. Intuition is a sick, sick magic card for setting up the combo with gigapede, dragon, and oona in the pile + animate dead effect in hand. Or just tutoring up triple dragon if you have drownyard and want to win that turn.
Might be right to include some misdirections maindeck. Haven't tested the list yet but the components are coming in the mail and I'll likely play it this weekend at a serious event despite not having a streamlined list yet in all likelihood.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
My first rough list for dragon is this one. The best answer to plow, decay, etc. etc. is probably misdirection or discard works too. I wouldn't dabble with piranha marsh, codex shredder, and/or ambassador laquatus when nephalia drownyard is the perfect card for this role since if they have eldrazi you can mill yourself until you hit oona/exile their whole deck or if the game goes long drownyarding yourself to find a dragon, oona, or as a brainstorm shuffle effect is quite useful. Entering untapped is huge. Piranha marsh enters tapped/only really good when combo'ing as 1 damage before combo'ing is meaningless short of your opponent being at 1 life. Intuition is a sick, sick magic card for setting up the combo with gigapede, dragon, and oona in the pile + animate dead effect in hand. Or just tutoring up triple dragon if you have drownyard and want to win that turn.
Might be right to include some misdirections maindeck. Haven't tested the list yet but the components are coming in the mail and I'll likely play it this weekend at a serious event despite not having a streamlined list yet in all likelihood.
Ashen just exiles their board, i suppose stacked triggers could end the dragon loop too. I don't know a thing about this but why not just run a few more scrubland and have expedition map for a piranha marsh. Then after looping our opponent to death, swords or path our dragon to end the loop. Seems like scrubby could finally have it's day in the sun. This all does feel a lot like a depths combo deck.
It seems a lot of people are building this following the sorcery speed of reanimator, however, this combo has the ability to go over at instant speed with Necromancy. So shouldn't that be maxed out at 4, then 5-? be animate dead? With regard to this, we could go for a bit slower version, instead of all in and play more instants, like izzet charm which answers death rite, digs for/ discards dragon, and counters hate spell.
Yes, necro is a 3 drop, so we need sol lands or lotus pedal, but the ability to go off in response to our opponent playing anything is one of the reasons to play this instead of reanimator.
Ok so here's my deck that myself and nOObRus worked on for like six hours yesterday via texts and messages---as well as some thoughts on the deck as a whole.
Dragon combo with Oona/Marsh and Read the Runes is not necessary. You will draw into nut reanimator hands (turn 2 Grielbrand with Daze protection) and just ride him into victory without ever needing to kill with Dragon. He's there because you can do it. There are situations were you can just outright kill them post attacking with Griselbrand and drawing 21 cards anyways...You can also, with the right draws and if their shields are down, just kill them with Dragon and Oona in the same way that you kill with Griselbrand. No need for Snapcaster Intuition piles, no need for Drownyard. Just play at deck that is elegant and simple. The third piece of the puzzle doesn't matter. You will have drawn your deck and have infinite mana, finding a kill at that point is easy. Like Enter the Infinite says "Don't just have one idea, have all of them".
Ways to kill
-Griselbrand
-Dragon Combo with Piranha Marsh in play (it happens. Turn 1 nothing, turn 2 Entomb for Dragon with Therapy plus gas in hand to kill)
-Dragon Combo with Oona.
1.) Get Griselbrand into play.
2.) Draw cards, just like TinFins
3.) Get Worldgorger into your graveyard--Entomb or Therapy.
4.) Animate him. Get manas.
5.) If you are low on life, Read the Runes is now a Griselbrand but also gets Oona into your hard.
6.) Pass off Animate Dead to Oona. Kill them.
Sideboard options include Scholar of Athreos to bypass Leyline of Sanctity.
how do you guys feel about running chalice of the void to stop things like swords to plowshare, stifle?
against unknown graveyard hate, not knowing if your opponent is going for relic of progenitus or rest in peace how should we sideboard?
right now i've go 2 mainboard spots of repeal devoted to this, but i feel there might be a better way to go about it that I am over looking.
this is the list I cooked up, had a run of bad luck against miracles, kept top decking the right spell for his counter balance trigger. then freaken tokens slipped a blood artist on me both games, couldn't combo because I had not spot removal, everytime dragon died I got nicked for 1. Against burn my 1 of Iona was auto win. final game i got in was against reanimator, stole his creatures from his graveyard and managed to win. instant speed necromancy saved me by stealing his iona as he went for it. once the flash killed the necromany I stole it on my turn with dance and that was game.
over all I think it needs more protection and disruption. I feel like i should be running the white list I had with silence, but maybe something else would be better?
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Chalice won't really do anything to stop them from disrupting you. If they wait for WGD to exile your permanents, Chalice is no longer in play and they are free to stifle the dragon's LTB trigger. They can also wait for one iteration of the loop to happen, at which point the Chalice returns with 0 counters and they can Swords in response to the next exile trigger to perma-exile your board.
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Or you just get called for slow play. It's a repeated loop of game actions that can't be interrupted and therefore just draws the game.
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How is it slow play when you are acting out every legal action you are able to as quickly as possible?
Is there a definition in the rules for unbreakable game loops drawing the game?
(Just looked it up; yes rule 104.4b)
Once you have demonstrated that one iteration of the loop is unbreakable, that's just a draw.
For loops that are breakable, you must be able to specify the number of iterations and the expected endstate. To do otherwise is slow play. Google "Four Horsemen Legacy" for a lot of in depth discussion about this.
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So then basically, after winning game 1, you have to go infinite in every game you play after that in order to eventually send the match to time. Correct?
At what point do we intentionally draw the game? Do we wait for a state where our opponents seem likely to win, or do we use an early opportunity for a 7 card mulligan.
If the deck doesn't go infinite, it loses. I'm positing that running a draw is a better line of play than waiting a few turns to win. This may result in matches going 0-0-X or 1-0-X. You may be able to play many games in a match.
Somewhere in the middle, imo. Not too early because a counterspell or creature removal sends you packing, and especially in game one, you really want to win the pre-sideboarded game.
But if you're running Dig Through Times like I'm positing and you go off without a win con but with one of those in your hand, there's nothing wrong with trying to win but risking a draw.
In the event that you don't have the gas and are going for the draw, usually you'd wait it out to try and find the win-con, but if you're dead on the board you obviously shoot for the draw. You might also do this if you like had to mulligan to 5 or 4 or something, in order to restart at 7 cards.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
2 Buried Alive
4 Entomb
4 Careful Study
4 Animate Dead
2 Worldgorger Dragon
4 Underground Sea
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Spell Pierce
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Ritual
3 Force of Will
2 Brainstorm
4 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Stroke of Genius
2 Counterspell
4 Dance of the Dead
4 Underground River
I've been messing around with the combos, and I really do think that the key will be running "both combos". Griselbrand just gives you so many advantages - not to mention that with accelerants, you can "go off" from a 14-card draw in the same turn! The advantage over Tin Fins is that you have more space for disruption and are generally less fragile, as well as a bit faster on average. What you really have to decide is whether to run discard or permission as disruption, and how much mana accel to run. Personally, I think the permission package is going to be better on average, but I really haven't tested it much at all...
Here's the list I've been kicking around, far from polished, but performing pretty well for a first draft - I decided that the R was worth it for a couple more Careful Study and sideboard options (Pyroblast):
1x Badlands
1x Island
4x Polluted Delta
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Swamp
3x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
4x Brainstorm
2x Daze
4x Entomb
4x Force of Will
2x Pact of Negation
Enchantment (7)
4x Animate Dead
3x Dance of the Dead
3x Griselbrand
1x Oona, Queen of the Fae
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Worldgorger Dragon
Sorcery (6)
4x Careful Study
2x Faithless Looting
Artifact (7)
3x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
Can you give me an example of the sequencing using Snapcaster? I've always been bad when it comes to complex timing issues.
Really good thought! And when you start bouncing all your lands with the combo for the infinite mana the counters will keep resetting.
Also, here are some worst-case timing scenarios for disruption against us:
Stifle:
Stifle Worldgorger Dragon's LTB trigger and we just lost everything.
Swords to Plowshares:
StP Worldgorger in response to its ETB trigger and its LTB trigger will go off too early, returning nothing to the battlefield. Then, its ETB trigger will exile all our permanents. This is the Nightmare Effect in action, everybody, and it doesn't bode well for us.
Abrupt Decay:
Abrupt Decay Animate Dead in response to Worldgorger's ETB trigger and Worldgorger will die on the spot, so its LTB trigger will go off too early and we get the Nightmare Effect all over again.
It is because Decay blows us out so hard that I recommend targeted discard or Cabal Therapy maindeck.
Altar of the Brood could be quite good in that it will mill your opponent out (in most cases) and also give you a creature in their yard to target (assuming they aren't creatureless) to break the loop.
Faerie Macabre would be a good way to end the combo.
Another less than stellar idea was Abundant Growth for infinite card draw in addition to infinite mana.
All-in-all it seems like there is a lot of potential, but likely isn't any stronger than either Tin-Fins and classic Reanimator... I might still work on a list just for funsies
4 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Griselbrand
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Ashen Rider
1 Gigapede
Reanimation
4 Animate Dead
2 Dance of the Dead
2 Necromancy
Card Draw/Tutors
4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb
4 Careful Study
4 Intuition
2 Ponder
2 Read the Runes
2 Dark Ritual
Protection
4 Force of Will
Lands 18
4 Nephalia Drownyard
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Misdirection
4 Thoughtseize
2 Echoing Truth
3 Pithing Needle
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Griselbrand
Might be right to include some misdirections maindeck. Haven't tested the list yet but the components are coming in the mail and I'll likely play it this weekend at a serious event despite not having a streamlined list yet in all likelihood.
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I like this. What exactly is the Ashen Rider for?
I gather it could eliminate annoying permanents like Platinum Angel. It would be a chore to get him in play to do that job though.
Yes, necro is a 3 drop, so we need sol lands or lotus pedal, but the ability to go off in response to our opponent playing anything is one of the reasons to play this instead of reanimator.
1 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Animate Dead
4 Entomb
3 Daze
3 Necromancy
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Read the Runes
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Piranha Marsh
Dragon combo with Oona/Marsh and Read the Runes is not necessary. You will draw into nut reanimator hands (turn 2 Grielbrand with Daze protection) and just ride him into victory without ever needing to kill with Dragon. He's there because you can do it. There are situations were you can just outright kill them post attacking with Griselbrand and drawing 21 cards anyways...You can also, with the right draws and if their shields are down, just kill them with Dragon and Oona in the same way that you kill with Griselbrand. No need for Snapcaster Intuition piles, no need for Drownyard. Just play at deck that is elegant and simple. The third piece of the puzzle doesn't matter. You will have drawn your deck and have infinite mana, finding a kill at that point is easy. Like Enter the Infinite says "Don't just have one idea, have all of them".
Ways to kill
-Griselbrand
-Dragon Combo with Piranha Marsh in play (it happens. Turn 1 nothing, turn 2 Entomb for Dragon with Therapy plus gas in hand to kill)
-Dragon Combo with Oona.
1.) Get Griselbrand into play.
2.) Draw cards, just like TinFins
3.) Get Worldgorger into your graveyard--Entomb or Therapy.
4.) Animate him. Get manas.
5.) If you are low on life, Read the Runes is now a Griselbrand but also gets Oona into your hard.
6.) Pass off Animate Dead to Oona. Kill them.
Sideboard options include Scholar of Athreos to bypass Leyline of Sanctity.
Questions?
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
not to mention you can mill yourself until you find a new target for your enchantment allowing you to break the loop.
against unknown graveyard hate, not knowing if your opponent is going for relic of progenitus or rest in peace how should we sideboard?
right now i've go 2 mainboard spots of repeal devoted to this, but i feel there might be a better way to go about it that I am over looking.
this is the list I cooked up, had a run of bad luck against miracles, kept top decking the right spell for his counter balance trigger. then freaken tokens slipped a blood artist on me both games, couldn't combo because I had not spot removal, everytime dragon died I got nicked for 1. Against burn my 1 of Iona was auto win. final game i got in was against reanimator, stole his creatures from his graveyard and managed to win. instant speed necromancy saved me by stealing his iona as he went for it. once the flash killed the necromany I stole it on my turn with dance and that was game.
over all I think it needs more protection and disruption. I feel like i should be running the white list I had with silence, but maybe something else would be better?
1 ashen rider
4 worldgorger dragon
1 Scholar of Athreos
4 codex shredder
4 entomb
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 animate dead
4 necromancy
1 dance of the dead
4 ponder
4 cabal therapy
4 read the runes
1 stroke of genius
3 piranha marsh
15 other land
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x-post from the source:
3 Worldgorger Dragon
3 Griselbrand
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Animate Dead
4 Dance of the Dead
1 Buried Alive
3 Unmask
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
2 Shivan Gorge
1 Swamp
Though I think I like this list better:
3 Worldgorger Dragon
3 Griselbrand
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Careful Study
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Animate Dead
3 Dance of the Dead
1 Buried Alive
2 Unmask
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Shivan Gorge
2 Swamp
Modern: BUDark DelverUB
EDH: UUKami, of the Crescent MoonUU