If griselbrand is "drawing me into combo" why am I not winning already with a griselbrand in play?
Reanimator is, at its heart, a toolbox deck where you put the best creature you have against a given deck into play. Dragon always puts dragon into play. By playing both you are taking away the toolbox aspect of reanimator to play a different combo which needs additional pieces, which again are limited because of trying to do two different things.
Reanimator can already beat ensnaring bridge with its toolbox.
Please show me a Reanimator list that main decks an answer to Ensnaring Bridge. Last I looked (maybe I'm playing an outdated list, possible) there was nothing main deck to take out the bridge.
Tyrant needs you to draw spells to work against bridge though but in all seriousness ashen rider is a reanimator mainstay too
I don't agree with throwing a 1 of dragon into traditional reanimator for multiple reasons mainly dragon is a 3 card combo (enchantment for dead creatures, WGD, way to abuse all that mana) and that you can't effectively build your deck to take the most advantage of both routes you're just watering down both routes to victory be it dragon or griselbrand/generic fatty. Reason I included 1 griselbrand in my dragon list is because when you run 4 entomb and 4 careful study as well as 8 reanimation effects you can't not run griselbrand since EoT entomb griselbrand, untap, animate dead on griselbrand wins the game if they lack an answer or if their answer is karakas/something that lets you draw 14 with griselbrand you're going to untap and win the game since you're virtually guaranteed to draw a WGD, reanimation enchantment, and something to do with infinite mana in 14 cards.
Replenish I stone don't understand. Replenish to get back just creature enchantment(s) is just plain worse than playing a creature enchantment over it that costs 1-2 mana less because no one is running more than 12 enchantments to bring back dragon/what we have access to in the 2-3 drop slot with animate dead, dance of the dead, and necromancy. Bringing back chronic flooding is cute no doubt but then you're running chronic flooding in legacy/I doubt you're ever winning a tournament no offense when you put chronic flooding into your combo deck on purpose. This deck isn't meant to be mid to late game it's meant to win on or by turn 3.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Spooky nailed it. Ashen rider is also a common option. Occasionally you may see terastadon or woodfall primus as well.
Ah yes. Didn't think of them. I was thinking more in the line of Abrupt Decay which is in the board of some lists. Have the Rider but don't own any Tidesprouts. Probably should pick one up.
Weaponx is dead-on accurate.
I think those of you that are wanting to include griselbrand are just conceding that traditional reanimator is an easier combo to assemble. That said, I would love to see a good Dragon list just for the sake of format diversity.
I haven't made a list myself, but the way I see it Griselbrand might as well be in the list as a 1-2 of because it's already a Reanimation shell so why not? To me it's not a matter of mixing strategies, I see Griselbrand as an excellent Plan B/Dragon #5-6. Nothing can actually take the place of WGD in the combo, but when you want a couple extra reanimation targets there's no reason to pick anything but Griselbrand.
Design philosophy is different. This is actually like sneak and show vs Omnitell. 2 card win eventually vs 3 card win now. The list I'm running is on the win now plan and works fine. That focus makes everything easier about the deck including sideboard construction.
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------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
i swear the amount of stuff in legacy that can **** this deck up is maddening. Force of will stops 9 out of 10 things and then someone ninja hits you with an abrupt decay and you can't stop from losing your board.
I got two builds i'm liking so far "full on reanimator" or "dark confidant addition".
this is what i'm running for "full on reanimator," I really like jin-gitaxas for all the cards he net gains me, being a 3 card combo you need draw power. if he survive to your opponents turn he can make it safe to combo having take out your opponents entire hand. run 1 iona shield of emeria cause she's that good, could be tool box for something else too.
adding dark confidant plays a little more to the vintage decks that still play dragon. again i'm finding card draw is a huge thing for getting this combo to go off on time. confidant will net gains pieces, only 9 cards are cc above 2 at the most. 3 dragon, 1 ashen rider, 1 oona, and 4 force of will. you diminish the chance of hitting these as you entomb dragons. Lim-Dul's Vault vault is good too as it can set up what the bob trigger will hit. vault plus bob is great because you can get 1 entomb and 1 animate spell set up to win, in theory. Haven't tested cabal therapy yet but running bob also adds strength to running that card as well as the list now has affordable fodder for the flash back. currently though he makes for additional read the runes fodder.
bobs been my best test so far out of the 2. I generate more threat than control has answers. out raced rock deck as well two games, but had an abrupt decay incident when I faced a 2nd round of rock player. I got a little too ambitious both those games. 6 games
jin-gitaxias had been pretty solid for getting the first 7 draw 4/5 but all 5 games of testing he hasn't gotten me the force of will back up I need to protect him through my opponents turn. the opportunity to flash in necromancy at end of opponents turn so they discard there whole hand hasn't really come up and thats in part due to only running 2 necromancy. As cool and diverse of use as it is for jin its also a waste of necromancy.
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True. But you can't be secured from everything. And the most common threats are FoW and Gravehate, both of those can be taken out by discard before doing any harm.
Misdirection and Divert are barely played, even in sideboards. So I would be okay to losing to them. But securing ourselves against most common hate is essential.
Or at least I think so.
This is the current list I'm running and testing. So far, in gold-fishing, it's been very consistent. Mainly Reanimator, but has a dragon for a combo finish. Thoughts?
What I liked about playing the deck long ago was that it was easy to constantly get a dragon in the yard and then just keep spamming reanimation spells. It puts a lot of pressure on the opponent to have an answer and makes it easier if we have to only stop one spell. To me that should be an obvious consensus from anyone playing the deck. The only grey area should be discard vs counters as that choice would change your combo by a turn as reactive vs proactive should.
Reanimator and dragon should remain separate decks. The combination of both waters down both strategies.
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only problem with divert and misdirection is there isn't always something to change a threat's target too. hence counter spells or discard are less susceptible to failure. its almost why I think silence is a strong option here. maybe even defense grid.
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Because I am playing counterspells, misdirection is my hedge against a game 1 abrupt decay. Not to say misdirection and divert should be played, but they are options to problems that don't weaken the mana base more then it needs to be. That said another strength of the deck is that it can play basics and only needs 2 colours. I have defense grid in my current sideboard but that's more of a result of not being sure what my sideboard plan should ideally be. There is also serum powder and pack rats there just to hit home my indecisiveness on a plan.
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I like misdirection a lot personally. Only real answer to abrupt decay not to mention the amount of things it stops is staggering from surgical to countermagic to removal it stops most everything. Only reason I have to run force over it are annoying cards like crop rotation for bojuka bog, DRS, RiP, or to fight opposing combo decks. I don't like divert because it costs mana. Misdirection can also randomly blow out an ancestral vision by redirecting it to you to draw 3 or make discard target them namely hymn and thoughtseize as misdirection on cabal therapy is basically FoW on therapy but you see their hand but they can still maybe flash it back.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Because I am playing counterspells, misdirection is my hedge against a game 1 abrupt decay. Not to say misdirection and divert should be played, but they are options to problems that don't weaken the mana base more then it needs to be. That said another strength of the deck is that it can play basics and only needs 2 colours. I have defense grid in my current sideboard but that's more of a result of not being sure what my sideboard plan should ideally be. There is also serum powder and pack rats there just to hit home my indecisiveness on a plan.
I like misdirection a lot personally. Only real answer to abrupt decay not to mention the amount of things it stops is staggering from surgical to countermagic to removal it stops most everything. Only reason I have to run force over it are annoying cards like crop rotation for bojuka bog, DRS, RiP, or to fight opposing combo decks. I don't like divert because it costs mana. Misdirection can also randomly blow out an ancestral vision by redirecting it to you to draw 3 or make discard target them namely hymn and thoughtseize as misdirection on cabal therapy is basically FoW on therapy but you see their hand but they can still maybe flash it back.
I don't like Misdirection because, if you combo off fast enough, there won't be any other legal targets to redirect Abrupt Decay/creature removal/enchantment removal/etc. to. It's especially weak against Miracles, where it'll hose counterspells, most likely not hose Swords to Plowshares (unless you're comboing off after they stuck a creature, so that game had better be a grinder), and obviously not do a thing against Terminus.
IMO, the real answer to Abrupt Decay is targeted discard, Cabal Therapy, or Silence. As long as you cast them on the combo turn, all of them will keep one Decay from hitting its target, guaranteed.
How consistently does this version combo off? The thing I like about Oona/Scholar of Athreos is that they enable the win with only "Animate Dead" on a Worldgorger and Entomb in hand, nothing in the graveyard, and no special mana base. As far as I can tell, this version can only combo off into a guaranteed win if you start comboing off with at least one of these conditions being true:
Duskmantle is in play (and you have a UB mana base)
Drownyard is in play (and you have a UB mana base)
Baleful Strix is in play (and you have a U mana base)
Snapcaster Mage is in hand/play/graveyard and Cunning Wish is in graveyard/hand (and you have a U mana base)
Tiago is in hand/play and Entomb is in hand/graveyard (and you have a UB mana base)
Entomb is in hand and Cunning Wish is in graveyard/hand
(Make sure Strix draws don't deck you!)
On another note, how much consistency does swapping all Careful Studys with Read the Runes add, vs. how much does that slow the deck down? Read the Runes mills your win con (if it's a creature) or forces it in hand (if it's an instant), so it's effectively a combo piece, but it costs 2 mana to get your Worldgorger Dragon out of your hand. (I have cast Read the Runes for X = 3 a fair few times in testing by stuffing a Dark Ritual into it. It generally still didn't dig far enough, though.)
virtue's ruin is good but anarchy hits more than creatures.
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i don't know anyone wants to follow vintage and plash 3rd color green for Xantid SwarmAutumn's Veil or city of solitude........... way i remember playing dragon from 2004 was simply sideboard xantid swarm and goad your opponent into wasting removal on it or attack with it and second main phase combo out. given the last 11 years of changes i dunno if I can think of things as that simple.
running abrupt decay in order to kill rest in peace sort of makes sense. krosan grip might even be better.
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I'll be trying this deck out for a bit. Running a few more tutors than others to make sure I can assemble the combo; I've also noticed a lot of the lists run fewer than 8 discard spells..
I'm not sure I agree with all of his choices, but I think the principle idea of that looks more appealing than the other suggestions people have been making.
Its pretty clear that trying to make this as a fast combo deck just results in a strictly worse version of either reanimator or tinfins.
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Please show me a Reanimator list that main decks an answer to Ensnaring Bridge. Last I looked (maybe I'm playing an outdated list, possible) there was nothing main deck to take out the bridge.
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I don't agree with throwing a 1 of dragon into traditional reanimator for multiple reasons mainly dragon is a 3 card combo (enchantment for dead creatures, WGD, way to abuse all that mana) and that you can't effectively build your deck to take the most advantage of both routes you're just watering down both routes to victory be it dragon or griselbrand/generic fatty. Reason I included 1 griselbrand in my dragon list is because when you run 4 entomb and 4 careful study as well as 8 reanimation effects you can't not run griselbrand since EoT entomb griselbrand, untap, animate dead on griselbrand wins the game if they lack an answer or if their answer is karakas/something that lets you draw 14 with griselbrand you're going to untap and win the game since you're virtually guaranteed to draw a WGD, reanimation enchantment, and something to do with infinite mana in 14 cards.
Replenish I stone don't understand. Replenish to get back just creature enchantment(s) is just plain worse than playing a creature enchantment over it that costs 1-2 mana less because no one is running more than 12 enchantments to bring back dragon/what we have access to in the 2-3 drop slot with animate dead, dance of the dead, and necromancy. Bringing back chronic flooding is cute no doubt but then you're running chronic flooding in legacy/I doubt you're ever winning a tournament no offense when you put chronic flooding into your combo deck on purpose. This deck isn't meant to be mid to late game it's meant to win on or by turn 3.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Ah yes. Didn't think of them. I was thinking more in the line of Abrupt Decay which is in the board of some lists. Have the Rider but don't own any Tidesprouts. Probably should pick one up.
I think those of you that are wanting to include griselbrand are just conceding that traditional reanimator is an easier combo to assemble. That said, I would love to see a good Dragon list just for the sake of format diversity.
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I got two builds i'm liking so far "full on reanimator" or "dark confidant addition".
this is what i'm running for "full on reanimator," I really like jin-gitaxas for all the cards he net gains me, being a 3 card combo you need draw power. if he survive to your opponents turn he can make it safe to combo having take out your opponents entire hand. run 1 iona shield of emeria cause she's that good, could be tool box for something else too.
4 lotus petal
4 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
4 worldgorger dragon
1 ashen rider
1 iona, shield of emeria
1 oona, queen of the fae
3 read the runes
4 force of will
3 thoughtseize
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 entomb
2 dance of the dead
2 necromancy
adding dark confidant plays a little more to the vintage decks that still play dragon. again i'm finding card draw is a huge thing for getting this combo to go off on time. confidant will net gains pieces, only 9 cards are cc above 2 at the most. 3 dragon, 1 ashen rider, 1 oona, and 4 force of will. you diminish the chance of hitting these as you entomb dragons. Lim-Dul's Vault vault is good too as it can set up what the bob trigger will hit. vault plus bob is great because you can get 1 entomb and 1 animate spell set up to win, in theory. Haven't tested cabal therapy yet but running bob also adds strength to running that card as well as the list now has affordable fodder for the flash back. currently though he makes for additional read the runes fodder.
4 lotus petal
4 dark confidant
3 worldgorger dragon
1 ashen rider
1 oona, queen of the fae
3 read the runes
4 force of will
4 duress
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 entomb
2 dance of the dead
2 necromancy
bobs been my best test so far out of the 2. I generate more threat than control has answers. out raced rock deck as well two games, but had an abrupt decay incident when I faced a 2nd round of rock player. I got a little too ambitious both those games. 6 games
jin-gitaxias had been pretty solid for getting the first 7 draw 4/5 but all 5 games of testing he hasn't gotten me the force of will back up I need to protect him through my opponents turn. the opportunity to flash in necromancy at end of opponents turn so they discard there whole hand hasn't really come up and thats in part due to only running 2 necromancy. As cool and diverse of use as it is for jin its also a waste of necromancy.
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Unmask and other cheap discard stuff before going off could work.
Especially unmask for that matter.
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True. But you can't be secured from everything. And the most common threats are FoW and Gravehate, both of those can be taken out by discard before doing any harm.
Misdirection and Divert are barely played, even in sideboards. So I would be okay to losing to them. But securing ourselves against most common hate is essential.
Or at least I think so.
1 Cunning Wish
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Careful Study
3 Baleful Strix
4 Entomb
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Animate Dead
4 Necromancy
3 Worldgorger Dragon
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Duskmantle, House of Shadow
1 Stroke of Genius
3 Massacre
1 Dismember
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Wipe Away
1 Pact of Negation
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Ashen Rider
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
2 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Careful Study
4 Entomb
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Animate Dead
4 Reanimate
4 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
4 Underground Sea
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacomb
2 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Scholar of Athreos
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
2 Pithing Needle
1 Massacre
2 Show and Tell
3 Dark Ritual
This is the current list I'm running and testing. So far, in gold-fishing, it's been very consistent. Mainly Reanimator, but has a dragon for a combo finish. Thoughts?
Zur, the Enchanter
Reanimator and dragon should remain separate decks. The combination of both waters down both strategies.
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Currently Playing:
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I don't like Misdirection because, if you combo off fast enough, there won't be any other legal targets to redirect Abrupt Decay/creature removal/enchantment removal/etc. to. It's especially weak against Miracles, where it'll hose counterspells, most likely not hose Swords to Plowshares (unless you're comboing off after they stuck a creature, so that game had better be a grinder), and obviously not do a thing against Terminus.
IMO, the real answer to Abrupt Decay is targeted discard, Cabal Therapy, or Silence. As long as you cast them on the combo turn, all of them will keep one Decay from hitting its target, guaranteed.
How consistently does this version combo off? The thing I like about Oona/Scholar of Athreos is that they enable the win with only "Animate Dead" on a Worldgorger and Entomb in hand, nothing in the graveyard, and no special mana base. As far as I can tell, this version can only combo off into a guaranteed win if you start comboing off with at least one of these conditions being true:
On another note, how much consistency does swapping all Careful Studys with Read the Runes add, vs. how much does that slow the deck down? Read the Runes mills your win con (if it's a creature) or forces it in hand (if it's an instant), so it's effectively a combo piece, but it costs 2 mana to get your Worldgorger Dragon out of your hand. (I have cast Read the Runes for X = 3 a fair few times in testing by stuffing a Dark Ritual into it. It generally still didn't dig far enough, though.)
stops:-
rest in peace trigger (thought thats not very valuable for comboing out.)
relic of progenitus
tormod's crypt
if we are trying to combo early we could mana screw an opponent if they fetch in response to us trying to combo.
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how does gamble play in the whole dragon combo?
if the deck went red, that gives you sideboard of anarchy while wipes out rest in peace Containment Priest leyline of sanctity etc, also (kind of shoves a iron clad pinnapple into enchantress decks plans.)
virtue's ruin is good but anarchy hits more than creatures.
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i don't know anyone wants to follow vintage and plash 3rd color green for Xantid Swarm Autumn's Veil or city of solitude........... way i remember playing dragon from 2004 was simply sideboard xantid swarm and goad your opponent into wasting removal on it or attack with it and second main phase combo out. given the last 11 years of changes i dunno if I can think of things as that simple.
running abrupt decay in order to kill rest in peace sort of makes sense. krosan grip might even be better.
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List:
2 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain
1 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Griselbrand
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Scholar of Athreos
3 Worldgorger Dragon
4 Animate Dead
2 Buried Alive
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Dance of the Dead
4 Dark Ritual
2 Duress
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lotus Petal
2 Necromancy
1 Thoughtseize
3 Unmask
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Defense Grid
2 Firestorm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
The 61st card maindeck is Scholar of Athreos, which I think can easily squeeze it's way into the side and be a back up kill condition to beat Leyline.
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4 animate dead
4 necromancy
2 dance of the dead
2 worldgorger dragon
win
1 oona, queen of the fae
2 piranha marsh
tutor
4 entomb
4 buried alive
4 spoils of the vault
4 crop rotation
4 cabal therapy
4 thoughtseize
2 duress
mana
4 bayou
4 verdant catacombs
4 polluted delta
2 swamp
1 forest
4 dark ritual
4 abrupt decay
4 xantid swarm
1 scholar of athreos
4 krosan grip
2 defense grid
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/661941-list-of-stores-that-support-legacy
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28892-Compilation-Of-Legacy-Streams
Fascinating article and an interesting take on the deck. I think he might be onto something.
I'm not sure I agree with all of his choices, but I think the principle idea of that looks more appealing than the other suggestions people have been making.
Its pretty clear that trying to make this as a fast combo deck just results in a strictly worse version of either reanimator or tinfins.