How does this deck beat any of the current Top Tier decks (reliably)? Seems like the entire gameplan is to win off of an unanswered bridge, at which point your wincon doesn't even matter. Great for catching people by surprise (at least, the ones that have to attack to win), but terrible against anyone who can either just combo kill you or counter your bridge. Or eat your mana base with Loam-Wasteland recursion. You basically roll over and die to a turn one delver with counterspell support
Also, the gameplan of putting cards into people's grave for them is typically somewhat suicidal in legacy. The last thing you want to do is bin someone's Punishing fire for them. Or worse, bin their Past in Flames.
I'm not saying Lantern can't win games, because it obviously can. It just seems to be setting itself up to fail against the matchups that matter. Heck, Ensnaring bridge and 60 islands could probably win a couple of games here and there; it's an amazingly powerful hate card in the right matchups. You'd just probably be better off putting it in a deck with better cards.
Unless your goal is to win using lanterns, in which case, I look forward to seeing how it goes. It's always exciting to see developmental decks perform well. Just remember that playing to win with your pet deck isn't the same thing as playing to win.
Here's the list. Partially tested, sideboard work-in-progress.
Now to answer your questions. How do we beat top tier decks? For starters, we have a sweet 7 discard package. That automatically gives us game against sketchy hands. We playing 4 needle to disrupt a lot of things going on, from Top to DRS to planeswalkers to lands-that-do-things, you name it. Then there are those problem permanents that stick around or generally hard to get rid of... I'm looking at you Delver and Counterbalance. That's where Abrupt Decay shines. Sure you can say we only run three but don't forget how fast we find these cards when we can mill ourselves for answers (hint: that is why this deck is so consistent). Surgical allows us to answer combo decks and annoying graveyard items as well; it's also commonly reused with Codex Shredder rebuy.
It is hard to understand how this deck wins games, it doesn't make sense in theory because it does a whole lot of nothing and should just die to everything. In practice, and from experience mind you, it actually works and quite consistently at that.
Let's change the discussion around a bit. Pick a common legacy deck and quickly summarize how that deck plans to win and how it defends itself while doing so. Just a few sentences is fine. Then, I'll describe with this Lantern list how/why Lantern is able to beat said deck.
How does this deck beat any of the current Top Tier decks (reliably)? Seems like the entire gameplan is to win off of an unanswered bridge, at which point your wincon doesn't even matter. Great for catching people by surprise (at least, the ones that have to attack to win), but terrible against anyone who can either just combo kill you or counter your bridge. Or eat your mana base with Loam-Wasteland recursion. You basically roll over and die to a turn one delver with counterspell support
Also, the gameplan of putting cards into people's grave for them is typically somewhat suicidal in legacy. The last thing you want to do is bin someone's Punishing fire for them. Or worse, bin their Past in Flames.
I'm not saying Lantern can't win games, because it obviously can. It just seems to be setting itself up to fail against the matchups that matter. Heck, Ensnaring bridge and 60 islands could probably win a couple of games here and there; it's an amazingly powerful hate card in the right matchups. You'd just probably be better off putting it in a deck with better cards.
Unless your goal is to win using lanterns, in which case, I look forward to seeing how it goes. It's always exciting to see developmental decks perform well. Just remember that playing to win with your pet deck isn't the same thing as playing to win.
Here's the list. Partially tested, sideboard work-in-progress.
Now to answer your questions. How do we beat top tier decks? For starters, we have a sweet 7 discard package. That automatically gives us game against sketchy hands. We playing 4 needle to disrupt a lot of things going on, from Top to DRS to planeswalkers to lands-that-do-things, you name it. Then there are those problem permanents that stick around or generally hard to get rid of... I'm looking at you Delver and Counterbalance. That's where Abrupt Decay shines. Sure you can say we only run three but don't forget how fast we find these cards when we can mill ourselves for answers (hint: that is why this deck is so consistent). Surgical allows us to answer combo decks and annoying graveyard items as well; it's also commonly reused with Codex Shredder rebuy.
It is hard to understand how this deck wins games, it doesn't make sense in theory because it does a whole lot of nothing and should just die to everything. In practice, and from experience mind you, it actually works and quite consistently at that.
Let's change the discussion around a bit. Pick a common legacy deck and quickly summarize how that deck plans to win and how it defends itself while doing so. Just a few sentences is fine. Then, I'll describe with this Lantern list how/why Lantern is able to beat said deck.
How do you beat storm, high tide(or solidarity), or belcher? Those decks are leagues faster(besides high tide), can brainstorm to hide key cards(besides belcher, which is just crazy fast to begin with), and storm has discard for your lock pieces. It seems to me like the only way to have a shot against those decks is to have multiple discard spells, be on the play, and have their brainstorms be total garbage.
I do like that this seems like one of the few decks with a decent Miracles match-up though so that's always promising.
lol... these are the same kind of arguments I had to endure while developing Lantern in modern. Deemed a joke that would never make it at first, 3 years later its all the rage in modern.
Sure legacy is harder to tame, but it also offers Lantern new tools to work with. IMO, its not a matter if it could work or not, its a matter of how long does it take to develop a list that works in legacy.
Storm - This one is rough and that's okay to have some matchups harder than others (this is how legacy works, right?). Discard can buy time. Surgicals can make counting hard for them. I plan to have some sideboard answers for this deck.
Hide Tide - This one also isn't that popular right? Similar plan as to storm. We can needle tops/candles. I'm starting to feel 4 Sphere of Resistance in the board isn't a bad idea.
Belcher - Assuming they don't just "have it," which doesn't happen that often right, we can needle belcher to turn those off then empty our hand in 2-turns time to survive under a bridge. Are there other sweet sideboard cards I don't know of?
Looking at the past six SCG 5k, it seems these aren't that common of decks. Storm appeared in the top 16, played only by two different pilots, and high tide/belcher had no showings.
Sphere of resistance was insane and often enough to win games against me straight out.
How would you beat general goodstuff.dec things like Shardless, Jund, Nic Fit, or DeathBlade. In my friends play testing of a legacy port for lantern he had serious problems with hymn, lili, deathrite, jace, punishing fire/grove, and pernicious deed. In theory these were supposed to be fine but when we played out a few sets with them he got rolled and it wasn't just a small beating either.
Also meddling mage naming decay was a surprising problem letting scarier hate step in.
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"He went 3-1 at an event already"
"He once beat a mono-blue tier two deck that had a brainstorm"
I'm not hating directly on you or your deck, but these are the weakest arguments I've ever heard - especially based on the report of that 3-1 that he got.
Arguments? No, you are confused. I made no arguments. Other people made theoretical arguments that the deck cannot beat certain decks. I didn't make an argument against it, I posted actual event results (be it few, many, large or small, but still ACTUAL RESULTS) of the deck beating those decks. Am I saying Lantern is able to beat these decks consistently? Of course not. All I'm saying is it CAN beat them and Lantern lists are not even tuned yet, so I will keep an eye out for people developing the deck to see if they can achieve the consistency to beat top decks. Which yes, I believe with enough tuning it can do, but I don't have a long list of results for you sorry, the deck is just starting to be developed. Its absurd to be asking for serious results already, as ridiculous as claiming it insta-loses vs every good deck in the format.
the report doesn't make the deck look strong, it makes the meta look weak and the lantern player lucky.
lol. Yeah he just lucky, great argument.
You can't point to a single isolated jank experience and honestly try to hang the quality of the deck on that single hook. It's not going to hold up.
Did I do that though? Re-read my comments. I'm saying based on those first and ONLY results we have, the deck has POTENTIAL to be good in legacy. I clearly stated I don't know if it will be good, I think it can be good though. The quality of the deck I know from experience, this is why I believe it can work in legacy, because I know how the deck operates. People asking how it can beat X or Y decks shows little understanding of how Lantern works though, I mean someone asking how it can beat SDT or Brainstorm or whatever completely ignores the fact that Lantern has access to discard spells to disrupt hands, has Surgical and can play Pyxis of Pandemonium against graveyrad stuff, it plays removal for permanents as well locking pieces like Ensnaring Bridge and Pithing Needle in the mainboard to control the board and THEN it has a sweet package to control the draws. You do know Lantern can respond to all these cantrip spells to diminish their effects right? Thats how we play against cantrips in modern, we let them draw cantrips because we can respond to them. I couldn't discard that Preordain? Well ok, sure play it, but first I'll respond to it milling the good card on top of your library, now you can scry between a bad card and 1 unknown card. I just made Preordain half as effective as it is against every other deck. Ponder? Sure, let me just make it 1/3 less effective as it is against other decks... so on and so forth. But again, this is all based on theories. Which is absurd, that is why instead I posted the results of Zac beating Omnitell through cantrips and FOW/Daze and another player beating RUG Delver. As soon as I find more results of it beating decks with those spells I'll be sure to let you know.
I suggest you first familiarize with the deck before claiming it cannot beat other decks/strategies, most of you seem to think that trying to control the draws is all the deck does and that it spends its first 3 turns just trying to assemble draw control pieces and thus should not be able to work in legacy. You are missing a lot of what Lantern actually does and how it actually operates.
What are you ACTUALLY going to do?
You want me to actually play theory magic? Thats pointless, specially when lists aren't even tuned yet. Besides, if you just look at Lantern lists you can figure out how it beats other decks. The answers are right there and you know how spells work. If you want to theorize have a blast.
You want to see how bad theorizing is? I'll go by your examples:
Comments have said its easily hated out.
COmments have said its not easily hated out. There, is that as good an argument as yours?
What happens if I brainstorm and hit an abrupt decay for your bridge?
What happens if it doesn't? What happens if we discard your Brainstorm? What happens if you don't start with it in hand and we never let you draw one? Theories...
What happens when your at a large event and round three you come up against TES?
I play the spells I brought in to combat TES?
What is your plan against delver?
What is delver's plan against Lantern? Land a turn 1 Delver and counter Bridge? What if we discard your counters? What if we Decay your Delver? What if... ugh forget it.
Don't point at a single moment and say - ha, suck it.
Never did. It was other posters who pointed at certain decks and said "Ha, suck it."
Tell us. I still see all sorts of holes.
Its understandable to see many holse when you don't understand how the deck operates.
You tell me I haven't read the thread - I'm telling you that you haven't actually provided a thought out answer that actually addresses a single concern posted.
Right. I have not tried to counter theories with theories because as I showed you on this post, theory magic is an endless and pointless game. I have only posted the few actual results we have so far. Which are promising, even if not convincing enough to some of you.
If you're looking for help tuning a decklist, we have a section of the forums specifically for that. By putting your thread in the general discussion section, you're inviting general discussion.
And generally speaking, there's a lot of stuff that's viable in modern that won't cut it in legacy. And just because you *can* win a game in a certain way doesn't mean you can't win more games a different way. U/B Discard and Bridge isn't a terrible strategy (which seems to be the main approach to this deck on the source), but it has some serious weaknesses that just don't matter in Modern (but do in legacy).
Chalice at 1, Deed, and Engineered Explosives just destroy your deck, for example. 7 mainboard discard isn't the worst gameplan against Combo, but it's usually not enough to stick a discard or two and then durdle. Especially when your gameplan involves filling up their Graveyard for them. You have two basic lands in your list, with no countermagic to stop loam shenanigans (and you're milling, so you'll find loam for them). Surgical Extraction kinda-sorta offsets that, but only for one spell per game(two if you're lucky).
Hoping that your opponent keeps a bad hand isn't a plan.
Alright, let's try some of the top legacy decks:
Storm (ANT/TES): Black discard into ritual-fueled tendrils kill. Blue cantrips to assemble combo. Uses either Ad Nauseum or Past In Flames. Backup plan is to flood the field with 10+ 1/1 goblins on turn 1-2.
Delver: 1 mana 3/2 flier with countermagic and removal backup. Depending on colors, may also have burn, loam-wasteland lock, and additional undercosted beaters. Excels at punishing decks that durdle around, struggles against anything that can meet it in the combat step.
Lands: Play a bunch of lands on turn 1. Kill you with a 20/20 flier on turn 2-3. Recur said flier and wastelands/ghost quarters until you die. Essentially immune to discard (on the play). Has no real way to interact with stack-based combo aside from mana denial.
Miracles: Counter whatever of yours matters, establish counter-top lock, kill with Mentor and/or armies of angel tokens with counter backup. Use one mana wraths to deal with creatures.
Show&Tell: Put Emrakul or omniscience into play on turn 2-3, kill you with it.
You'll notice that all of these are pretty straightforward. They all do something really quickly to knock their opponent off-balance, and then end the game before their opponent has a chance to recover. It's not enough to lock your opponent down and then sit there for 20-30 turns in Legacy. They're going to get out of your lock. You need a way to close out the game quickly once they're down, or you're going to drop all sorts of games because they, say, randomly had a one-off ancient grudge in their deck, flashed it back to kill your bridge, and then hit you in the face before you replaced it. Or you accidentally mill Past in Flames and they untap-kill you. It's not that you won't win games; it's that you'll lose games that you should have had put away.
Let's say that your combo works about half the time. Probably fairly generous, but I can see it. The other half they just have whatever answer and kill you; it happens. If you were playing a combo that ended the game, then that half the time your combo worked would translate into a 50% win rate. But since it doesn't, you're going to lose games (and matches) because your opponent squirmed out of your lock. You're also going to randomly lose games to yourself like any other prison deck, because sometimes your opponent gets to go first and invalidates your lock. Check out anything that runs chalice, for example. You can't keep them from playing spells they've already played, and you can't stop them drawing cards they've already drawn.
If you're looking for help tuning a decklist, we have a section of the forums specifically for that. By putting your thread in the general discussion section, you're inviting general discussion.
Are you actually talking to the original thread poster? I think he knew where he was posting here and why:
Quote from Zemmiphobiac »
I'm not sure if there is anything on this yet, but I've heard a lot of rumors about a potential Legacy version of the Modern Lantern Control Deck. This is emphasized by the recent $80 price spike in Field of Dreams. That kind of price spike has me really intrigued. Are there actually any deck lists for this online yet? Has anyone been playing it on MTGO? Hope this is posted in the right place and that I get get some answers to my speculation.
This may be the general discussion area indeed. But he wasn't looking for discussion about the deck, he had 2 very specific questions and none of the questions was answered. Instead everyone just told him why it was bad idea in legacy, why he should just play JTMS instead or gave him a list of theoretical reasons why the deck won't work on legacy.
Thats when I actually answered his questions and I also got jumped on by people telling me the deck sucks in legacy. typical legacy players...
I linked him to a forum where people have lists and are developing the deck and also linked him to a thread here on MTGSal from a few months ago in case he wanted to work on the list with others here.
As for the rest of your post I'll let others get back to you on that. I'm not interested in getting caught up in this sort of arguments:
"Chalice at 1, Deed, and Engineered Explosives just destroy your deck, for example."
But Abrupt Decay destroys Chalice, Deed, Engenireed Explosves, for example.
ad infinitum... You got some very valid points, as does everyone else throign arguments around. I just find arguing over theoretical games is useless and prefer to wait for players to actually post more results with the deck to see where it actually stands as opposed to where it theoretically stands.
Funnily enough, I was watching legacy matches last night and in one of the rooms I joined as spectator I casually caught this match going on: Lantern Legacy vs Lands
This could answer some of your doubts about the match narah. I'll be honest, the Lantern list looked experimental with Cursed Scroll, Unexpectedly Absent adn Dark Ritual mainboard. I was a bit impressed at Dark Ritual though.
That says it all. Modern doesn't have the number or strength of cantrips, library manipulation and tutoring that Legacy does. It also doesn't have the resilient degenerate combos that Legacy has. Lantern is still minimally tested against those obstacles. If you don't play Legacy, you wouldn't appreciate the difference.
Maybe it could work with more tweaking. Needs larger sample size against tier 1 decks.
lol. Not only are these the same kind of arguments I heard in modern, its also the same kind of know-it-all attitudes. I don't have to play a format to understand it, because I understand it, is precisely why I stay away from it. It doesn't take a genius to understand it, I just don't like it enough to bother with memorizing what decks are top tier or whatever. What I meant by saying I'm not familiar with the format is that I won't enter into absurd theoretical arguments about how X or Y deck can or cannot beat Lantern. Results do a much better job than theories ever could. So why don't you just stick to the subject rather than trying to discredit me based on your assumptions about my knowledge of the format? tescrin mentioned various decks like D&T and Dredge as being decks that Lantern cannot beat and I posted already 2 event results were people beat both decks with lists that are not even tuned. But instead of replying to that you chose to reply about me not knowing about legacy? Pffftt... my knowledge has nothing to do with the facts, the fact is it has already proved it can beat the decks you called out. You also hail Brainstorm as an unbeatable card and I also posted results of Lantern beating Omnitell a deck with Brainstorm, cantrips, FoW and Daze. But again you said nothing, instead choosing to attack me personally. Now that those decks were beaten by Lantern you throw a second list of decks like RUG Delver, which another player beat at another event and I quote: "Rd 2: RUG Delver (W) - This seems like a reasonable matchup." But I can only guess if I find more results showing it can beat the rest of that list of decks you'll throw a third list of decks to beat. Nothing will satisfy you, you want to see it do good at a large event before giving it any credit, but if it ever does you would probably say its not enough, it needs to Top 8 a GP or something bigger and you'll just keep moving the line further each time. Its what happened in modern too, even in the GPOKC thread, when Day 1 ended the deck was 9-0 and people like Lantern (the mod) would not give it credit saying Day 1 doesn't matter, it needed to Top 8 a GP before he would accept it as a good deck. The deck finished winning the whole tournament and Lantern (the mod) still won't give it any credit. I don't expect people to agree with me because I'm not even trying to make a point here, my whole point from the beginning is that theories prove nothing, games do. And I never said Lantern is or will be good in legacy, I said it has the potential to do so, give it time, people are working on it. These are only test lists, some people working on it are even contemplating the idea of running FoW themselves and testing many other possible inclusions. In modern my original list in 2012 was UW, current lists in 2015 are BGr, nothing close to what it began as. Legacy has a lot more to offer to a deck that is only based on 3 colorless 1cc cards. Could you imagine a deck running discard spells with FoW/Daze that can also control the draw steps AND lock the board? That would be brutal if they made it work, if it ends up not working out it would just be another sad attempt to port a modern deck into legacy. No biggie.
Quote from JPoJohnson »
How does Legacy Lantern beat:
Brainstorm
Preordain
Ponder
T1 wins
T2 wins
T1 Goblins
FoW
These see play often. It's my understanding that you rely on controlling people's draws, but Brainstorm completely shuts that plan down. A single wrong card given to the opponent could be a loss.
Errr... were you reading the thread? I mentioned Zac already went 3-1 at an event, with one of the wins against Omnitell, which correct me if I'm wrong, plays Brainstorm and the rest of the cantrips as well as FoW. But again, I don't want to argue about how it can beat X or Y deck or strategy. Mostly because the lists are not even tuned yet and will probably look a lot different than what they do now. Though targeted discard followed by draw control goes a long way. Lantren not only controls draws, it disrupts the other decks on the way to control the draws. This is why arguments like "Lantern does nothing turns 1-3 and thus will lose" show little understanding of what Lantern really does. But I cannot emphasize enough that they are just testing lists. All these questions of how to beat X or Y deck/strategy is exactly what they are asking themselves. If they already knew how to tackle those successfully they'd be taking down tournaments, but its a new deck in the format. It'll take some time to test and tune trying to figure out how to do it and which cards are best to tackle legacy's meta, which as you all rightfully claim is different than modern. Though I may be right in assuming if other decks can beat T1 win decks, T2 win decks, T1 Goblins and so on... Lantern can figure out how to beat them too.
I think I won't even reply to any more arguments, I really don't like theorizing about it. I'll just let the people working on it and the deck speak for itself with results because I firmly believe that in the near future the question won't be "How does Lantern beat X or Y deck/strategy in legacy?" It will be "How does X or Y deck beat Lantern in legacy?".
You quote my comment, then ignore the last bit that directly answers the part you claim I'm ignoring:
"Maybe it could work with more tweaking. Needs larger sample size against tier 1 decks."
Yes, you posted some results, but very few and small events only. I can 3-1 with CasualJank.dec that I throw together 30 mins before the match. I can and have. I'm sure other Legacy regulars have done this at their local shop before. That doesn't mean said deck is good. Sometimes people get lucky. Sometimes you get lucky pairings or catch people unawares. Variance impacts results in small events. To know if it was just variance/surprise factor or if the deck can consistently beat those decks, you need a way larger sample size of results. Until then, the deck "could work maybe" but is not "proven". Needs larger sample size. The burden of proof rests on showing the new deck can compete in the format.
Sure, Lantern gets access to Legacy tools too. The deck doesn't have to be identical to the Modern list. The problem is that the engine is fundamentally the same (discard, Needle, top deck control artifacts, Bridge) while Legacy has better tools to beat topdeck locks than Modern does, so Lantern has more of an uphill battle to fight to overcome those obstacles. If you think that's the same argument, you're not listening properly, because people cannot make that same argument in Modern. Just like there are arguments people can make about viability in Vintage that people wouldn't encounter in Legacy. Lantern is also an engine that requires a lot of card slots in the deck (limiting other support options - little room to splash counters or more discard or more draw), which begs the question whether the same support shell with a different lock requiring fewer cards could do as well or better. That doesn't mean it absolutely can't win, but it's going to have a harder time than in Modern, and the burden of proof lies on showing Lantern can do it. A few matches doesn't cut it. There are some good theoretical arguments posted for how the deck could potentially adapt, but results do speak stronger.
Let's see someone post Lantern vs BUG or Lantern vs OmniTell or Lantern vs Miracles playtest results in n=20+ games. If your tweaked Lantern list can win more than 40%, then we're talking.
Re: OP.
There's a really good thread on TheSource discussing Lantern. Probably more productive discussion than on MTGS. I'd go there to see how people are tuning their lists and the results they're getting.
Why Field of Dreams? Shouldn't Jace, The Mind Sculptor be your additional Lantern effect? He costs 2U more, but JTMS brings so much to the table in addition to the essential fateseal effect.
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A lot of the deck could be replaced with Jace, the Mind Sculptor. So what to do with the extra slots? I think we can make this tier 1. No lanterns, bells, field of dreams nonsense. Maybe shore up the lock with some sort of Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top shenanigans and maybe splash white for stuff like Swords to Plowshares. If we're using Top then we can up the white and play around with things like Terminus and Entreat the Angels as a better/alternative win con.
I think that version could be pretty good, actually.
Admittedly stopped reading halfway throughout page two because arguments just kept going in circles. A deck that is good against fair decks but needs a heavy sb plan versus omnitell and storm can do just fine in legacy, lands does that very well. This deck seems a little worse against the creature decks and a little better against combo but that's fine.
I feel like just upgrading a few cards from modern parallels (wastelands from ghost quarter) won't be enough but a little more fundamental change might be needed. Of course I still feel like the idea has merit and would like to contribute to more specific deck list ideas if there is a thread someone can link
Admittedly stopped reading halfway throughout page two because arguments just kept going in circles. A deck that is good against fair decks but needs a heavy sb plan versus omnitell and storm can do just fine in legacy, lands does that very well. This deck seems a little worse against the creature decks and a little better against combo but that's fine.
I feel like just upgrading a few cards from modern parallels (wastelands from ghost quarter) won't be enough but a little more fundamental change might be needed. Of course I still feel like the idea has merit and would like to contribute to more specific deck list ideas if there is a thread someone can link
In the first page I linked to a thread from TheSource forums where people are working on it. I also linked to a thread here in MTGSal from 2014 when thnkr tried an attempt at the deck, you'll have to necro it. Otherwise theres nothing wrong with starting a new thread I guess.
Just to post an update. I've been silently working on a mono U and an UW version of Legacy Lantern.
So far, I usually establish the lock on turn 2, but often turn 1 as well. I'm using both Ensnaring Bridge and Energy Field to protect me. Energy Field is amazing. It protects me from burn spells and it's only 2 mana. There are not many games where I do not establish a field of dreams/lantern, 1 or 2 mill rocks and an energy field/crucible of worlds by turn 3.
I'm still looking for ways to improve the list. The UW version I use plays Unexpectedly Absent, Enlightened Tutor and Rest in Peace maindeck, and Meddling Mages + Phyrexian Revokers in the sideboard. The deck dies to chalice of the void, so I was looking for good ways to deal with it (Repeal doesn't work, but I don't see any other bounce spell that cantrips). Also, I am running 4 back to basics in the sideboard to deal with Eldrazi/12post/mud mana bases. Locking up Cloudposts and Vesuva protects me from Eldrazi cast triggers and Eye of Ugin inevitability.
I believe that discard spells are not necessary. Not many legacy decks can win with only a starting hand and without combat. The deck becomes a lot more powerful when people mulligan, because that essentially lowers the number of cards you have to deal with to 4 (2 lands, 4 business) while the new mulligan scry rule favors lantern because you know whether you should blind mill or not.
Also, while Brainstorm is good, it is just one card of many. They don't always open with a Brainstorm and drawing into Brainstorms is difficult against this deck. Brainstorm can whiff too (or not), but it doesn't invalidate the deck at all. I'm playing Pyxis of Pandemonium because it's way too dangerous to play Ghoulcaller's Bell in a format that thrives on filled graveyards.
I do not like the idea of Mind Sculpter or Veteran Explorer or Therapy. Therapy hits little, its no better than a Thoughtseize. It would be better if we played four probes, but we shouldn't need to. Explorer doesn't *do* anything; you don't want lands. Everything in the deck is so cheap and inexpensive.
Here's the current Legacy version I'm working on. I really like the previous version as well.
What about a lantern/pox cross over? I mean smallpox not big pox. Or maybe a Stax lantern type thing? I've been out of the game for a few years so I'm not sure what would make good synergy in those style builds.
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If wizards would print a green, black and white version of Hydroblast and Blue Elemental Blast Painter could be done in every color.
With legacy having more progenitor style effects of shuffling cards into the library, why does this deck not run more pyxus of paranoia. Just a question from somebody interested in working with this deck.
You arent doing anything because you are playing tsieze or inquisition and your stupid codex shredders. If duress effects were all you needed in legacy to be competitive in the first, usually also last, three turns of the game ANT would be the best deck in the format because it plays 7-8 AND instead of your wimpy soft lock that my dredge deck ignores while i hatebound trigger you to death they actually end the game a turn earlier... also what happens when it hit you with 3 therapies in turns 1 and two? Other decks have actual good draws in legacy, whereas yours is topdecking lanterns and shredders and <bull*****>
Hit us with a successful event report and list instead of a card price spike and speculation
Warning issued for trolling and censor evasion. Censor evasion removed.
- Teia
I don't know why people are so against change in Legacy, but I can tell you that I saw a guy I know pilot his MODERN Lantern Control list in 2 Legacy side events at GP Charlotte. He went 3-1 in the first event. The second event he dropped at 2-0 to hop into a Sealed event. I play tested against him later with Legacy Jund. It's not an easy matchup if it's even winnable at all. It requires them to miss more than you hit on useful cards. I can only imagine how horrible that deck would become if it were actually tuned properly. I think Dredge would be one of the few decks with game against it, but I'm not quite sure of that either.
The issue with this idea in legacy is the multiple stuff in the format as well as answers to ensnaring bridge from spell pierce to FoW to abrupt decay.
Shifting focus from a deck that wants to assemble lantern lock to a deck that wants to create a strong defense is a better path for this deck. I've thrown together this list recently. It has some good fighting power against many legacy decks because of the weird angle that it can shut them out. It has good defense against Chalice of the Void as well with the instants.
Obviously its a work-in-progress. Any advice or testing you guys want to throw at it be my guest. It's a bit easier to play that modern lantern since it doesn't require setting up the hard lock and then surviving.
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Here's the list. Partially tested, sideboard work-in-progress.
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Pithing Needle
3 Mox Opal
1 Lotus Petal
1 Welding Jar
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Tree of Tales
1 Vault of Whispers
2 City of Traitors
2 Academy Ruins
Now to answer your questions. How do we beat top tier decks? For starters, we have a sweet 7 discard package. That automatically gives us game against sketchy hands. We playing 4 needle to disrupt a lot of things going on, from Top to DRS to planeswalkers to lands-that-do-things, you name it. Then there are those problem permanents that stick around or generally hard to get rid of... I'm looking at you Delver and Counterbalance. That's where Abrupt Decay shines. Sure you can say we only run three but don't forget how fast we find these cards when we can mill ourselves for answers (hint: that is why this deck is so consistent). Surgical allows us to answer combo decks and annoying graveyard items as well; it's also commonly reused with Codex Shredder rebuy.
It is hard to understand how this deck wins games, it doesn't make sense in theory because it does a whole lot of nothing and should just die to everything. In practice, and from experience mind you, it actually works and quite consistently at that.
Let's change the discussion around a bit. Pick a common legacy deck and quickly summarize how that deck plans to win and how it defends itself while doing so. Just a few sentences is fine. Then, I'll describe with this Lantern list how/why Lantern is able to beat said deck.
I do like that this seems like one of the few decks with a decent Miracles match-up though so that's always promising.
This is a dangerous mindset and why the deck is still doing good.
Hide Tide - This one also isn't that popular right? Similar plan as to storm. We can needle tops/candles. I'm starting to feel 4 Sphere of Resistance in the board isn't a bad idea.
Belcher - Assuming they don't just "have it," which doesn't happen that often right, we can needle belcher to turn those off then empty our hand in 2-turns time to survive under a bridge. Are there other sweet sideboard cards I don't know of?
Looking at the past six SCG 5k, it seems these aren't that common of decks. Storm appeared in the top 16, played only by two different pilots, and high tide/belcher had no showings.
storm
2 scg indy (Clayton Willbanks & Caleb Scherer)
1 scg milwauk (Clayton Wilbanks)
1 scg worc (Caleb Scherer)
1 scg cinci (Caleb Scherer)
1 scg somerset (Caleb Scherer)
1 scg charlotte (Caleb Scherer)
high tide
0 showings
belcher
0 showings
How would you beat general goodstuff.dec things like Shardless, Jund, Nic Fit, or DeathBlade. In my friends play testing of a legacy port for lantern he had serious problems with hymn, lili, deathrite, jace, punishing fire/grove, and pernicious deed. In theory these were supposed to be fine but when we played out a few sets with them he got rolled and it wasn't just a small beating either.
Also meddling mage naming decay was a surprising problem letting scarier hate step in.
Arguments? No, you are confused. I made no arguments. Other people made theoretical arguments that the deck cannot beat certain decks. I didn't make an argument against it, I posted actual event results (be it few, many, large or small, but still ACTUAL RESULTS) of the deck beating those decks. Am I saying Lantern is able to beat these decks consistently? Of course not. All I'm saying is it CAN beat them and Lantern lists are not even tuned yet, so I will keep an eye out for people developing the deck to see if they can achieve the consistency to beat top decks. Which yes, I believe with enough tuning it can do, but I don't have a long list of results for you sorry, the deck is just starting to be developed. Its absurd to be asking for serious results already, as ridiculous as claiming it insta-loses vs every good deck in the format.
lol. Yeah he just lucky, great argument.
Did I do that though? Re-read my comments. I'm saying based on those first and ONLY results we have, the deck has POTENTIAL to be good in legacy. I clearly stated I don't know if it will be good, I think it can be good though. The quality of the deck I know from experience, this is why I believe it can work in legacy, because I know how the deck operates. People asking how it can beat X or Y decks shows little understanding of how Lantern works though, I mean someone asking how it can beat SDT or Brainstorm or whatever completely ignores the fact that Lantern has access to discard spells to disrupt hands, has Surgical and can play Pyxis of Pandemonium against graveyrad stuff, it plays removal for permanents as well locking pieces like Ensnaring Bridge and Pithing Needle in the mainboard to control the board and THEN it has a sweet package to control the draws. You do know Lantern can respond to all these cantrip spells to diminish their effects right? Thats how we play against cantrips in modern, we let them draw cantrips because we can respond to them. I couldn't discard that Preordain? Well ok, sure play it, but first I'll respond to it milling the good card on top of your library, now you can scry between a bad card and 1 unknown card. I just made Preordain half as effective as it is against every other deck. Ponder? Sure, let me just make it 1/3 less effective as it is against other decks... so on and so forth. But again, this is all based on theories. Which is absurd, that is why instead I posted the results of Zac beating Omnitell through cantrips and FOW/Daze and another player beating RUG Delver. As soon as I find more results of it beating decks with those spells I'll be sure to let you know.
I suggest you first familiarize with the deck before claiming it cannot beat other decks/strategies, most of you seem to think that trying to control the draws is all the deck does and that it spends its first 3 turns just trying to assemble draw control pieces and thus should not be able to work in legacy. You are missing a lot of what Lantern actually does and how it actually operates.
You want me to actually play theory magic? Thats pointless, specially when lists aren't even tuned yet. Besides, if you just look at Lantern lists you can figure out how it beats other decks. The answers are right there and you know how spells work. If you want to theorize have a blast.
You want to see how bad theorizing is? I'll go by your examples:
COmments have said its not easily hated out. There, is that as good an argument as yours?
What happens if it doesn't? What happens if we discard your Brainstorm? What happens if you don't start with it in hand and we never let you draw one? Theories...
I play the spells I brought in to combat TES?
What is delver's plan against Lantern? Land a turn 1 Delver and counter Bridge? What if we discard your counters? What if we Decay your Delver? What if... ugh forget it.
Never did. It was other posters who pointed at certain decks and said "Ha, suck it."
Its understandable to see many holse when you don't understand how the deck operates.
Right. I have not tried to counter theories with theories because as I showed you on this post, theory magic is an endless and pointless game. I have only posted the few actual results we have so far. Which are promising, even if not convincing enough to some of you.
Whoa... such a profound and insightful argument. Please tell me more.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
And generally speaking, there's a lot of stuff that's viable in modern that won't cut it in legacy. And just because you *can* win a game in a certain way doesn't mean you can't win more games a different way. U/B Discard and Bridge isn't a terrible strategy (which seems to be the main approach to this deck on the source), but it has some serious weaknesses that just don't matter in Modern (but do in legacy).
Chalice at 1, Deed, and Engineered Explosives just destroy your deck, for example. 7 mainboard discard isn't the worst gameplan against Combo, but it's usually not enough to stick a discard or two and then durdle. Especially when your gameplan involves filling up their Graveyard for them. You have two basic lands in your list, with no countermagic to stop loam shenanigans (and you're milling, so you'll find loam for them). Surgical Extraction kinda-sorta offsets that, but only for one spell per game(two if you're lucky).
Hoping that your opponent keeps a bad hand isn't a plan.
Alright, let's try some of the top legacy decks:
Storm (ANT/TES): Black discard into ritual-fueled tendrils kill. Blue cantrips to assemble combo. Uses either Ad Nauseum or Past In Flames. Backup plan is to flood the field with 10+ 1/1 goblins on turn 1-2.
Delver: 1 mana 3/2 flier with countermagic and removal backup. Depending on colors, may also have burn, loam-wasteland lock, and additional undercosted beaters. Excels at punishing decks that durdle around, struggles against anything that can meet it in the combat step.
Lands: Play a bunch of lands on turn 1. Kill you with a 20/20 flier on turn 2-3. Recur said flier and wastelands/ghost quarters until you die. Essentially immune to discard (on the play). Has no real way to interact with stack-based combo aside from mana denial.
Miracles: Counter whatever of yours matters, establish counter-top lock, kill with Mentor and/or armies of angel tokens with counter backup. Use one mana wraths to deal with creatures.
Show&Tell: Put Emrakul or omniscience into play on turn 2-3, kill you with it.
You'll notice that all of these are pretty straightforward. They all do something really quickly to knock their opponent off-balance, and then end the game before their opponent has a chance to recover. It's not enough to lock your opponent down and then sit there for 20-30 turns in Legacy. They're going to get out of your lock. You need a way to close out the game quickly once they're down, or you're going to drop all sorts of games because they, say, randomly had a one-off ancient grudge in their deck, flashed it back to kill your bridge, and then hit you in the face before you replaced it. Or you accidentally mill Past in Flames and they untap-kill you. It's not that you won't win games; it's that you'll lose games that you should have had put away.
Let's say that your combo works about half the time. Probably fairly generous, but I can see it. The other half they just have whatever answer and kill you; it happens. If you were playing a combo that ended the game, then that half the time your combo worked would translate into a 50% win rate. But since it doesn't, you're going to lose games (and matches) because your opponent squirmed out of your lock. You're also going to randomly lose games to yourself like any other prison deck, because sometimes your opponent gets to go first and invalidates your lock. Check out anything that runs chalice, for example. You can't keep them from playing spells they've already played, and you can't stop them drawing cards they've already drawn.
Are you actually talking to the original thread poster? I think he knew where he was posting here and why:
This may be the general discussion area indeed. But he wasn't looking for discussion about the deck, he had 2 very specific questions and none of the questions was answered. Instead everyone just told him why it was bad idea in legacy, why he should just play JTMS instead or gave him a list of theoretical reasons why the deck won't work on legacy.
Thats when I actually answered his questions and I also got jumped on by people telling me the deck sucks in legacy. typical legacy players...
I linked him to a forum where people have lists and are developing the deck and also linked him to a thread here on MTGSal from a few months ago in case he wanted to work on the list with others here.
As for the rest of your post I'll let others get back to you on that. I'm not interested in getting caught up in this sort of arguments:
"Chalice at 1, Deed, and Engineered Explosives just destroy your deck, for example."
But Abrupt Decay destroys Chalice, Deed, Engenireed Explosves, for example.
ad infinitum... You got some very valid points, as does everyone else throign arguments around. I just find arguing over theoretical games is useless and prefer to wait for players to actually post more results with the deck to see where it actually stands as opposed to where it theoretically stands.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
This could answer some of your doubts about the match narah. I'll be honest, the Lantern list looked experimental with Cursed Scroll, Unexpectedly Absent adn Dark Ritual mainboard. I was a bit impressed at Dark Ritual though.
https://youtu.be/LzGNmCp0oHU
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
You quote my comment, then ignore the last bit that directly answers the part you claim I'm ignoring:
"Maybe it could work with more tweaking. Needs larger sample size against tier 1 decks."
Yes, you posted some results, but very few and small events only. I can 3-1 with CasualJank.dec that I throw together 30 mins before the match. I can and have. I'm sure other Legacy regulars have done this at their local shop before. That doesn't mean said deck is good. Sometimes people get lucky. Sometimes you get lucky pairings or catch people unawares. Variance impacts results in small events. To know if it was just variance/surprise factor or if the deck can consistently beat those decks, you need a way larger sample size of results. Until then, the deck "could work maybe" but is not "proven". Needs larger sample size. The burden of proof rests on showing the new deck can compete in the format.
Sure, Lantern gets access to Legacy tools too. The deck doesn't have to be identical to the Modern list. The problem is that the engine is fundamentally the same (discard, Needle, top deck control artifacts, Bridge) while Legacy has better tools to beat topdeck locks than Modern does, so Lantern has more of an uphill battle to fight to overcome those obstacles. If you think that's the same argument, you're not listening properly, because people cannot make that same argument in Modern. Just like there are arguments people can make about viability in Vintage that people wouldn't encounter in Legacy. Lantern is also an engine that requires a lot of card slots in the deck (limiting other support options - little room to splash counters or more discard or more draw), which begs the question whether the same support shell with a different lock requiring fewer cards could do as well or better. That doesn't mean it absolutely can't win, but it's going to have a harder time than in Modern, and the burden of proof lies on showing Lantern can do it. A few matches doesn't cut it. There are some good theoretical arguments posted for how the deck could potentially adapt, but results do speak stronger.
Let's see someone post Lantern vs BUG or Lantern vs OmniTell or Lantern vs Miracles playtest results in n=20+ games. If your tweaked Lantern list can win more than 40%, then we're talking.
Re: OP.
There's a really good thread on TheSource discussing Lantern. Probably more productive discussion than on MTGS. I'd go there to see how people are tuning their lists and the results they're getting.
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I think that version could be pretty good, actually.
I feel like just upgrading a few cards from modern parallels (wastelands from ghost quarter) won't be enough but a little more fundamental change might be needed. Of course I still feel like the idea has merit and would like to contribute to more specific deck list ideas if there is a thread someone can link
Modern: WURG Twin
Standard: Mardu Planeswalkers
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/661834-mardu-planeswalker?comment=1
Monthly Proxy Legacy
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In the first page I linked to a thread from TheSource forums where people are working on it. I also linked to a thread here in MTGSal from 2014 when thnkr tried an attempt at the deck, you'll have to necro it. Otherwise theres nothing wrong with starting a new thread I guess.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
So far, I usually establish the lock on turn 2, but often turn 1 as well. I'm using both Ensnaring Bridge and Energy Field to protect me. Energy Field is amazing. It protects me from burn spells and it's only 2 mana. There are not many games where I do not establish a field of dreams/lantern, 1 or 2 mill rocks and an energy field/crucible of worlds by turn 3.
I'm still looking for ways to improve the list. The UW version I use plays Unexpectedly Absent, Enlightened Tutor and Rest in Peace maindeck, and Meddling Mages + Phyrexian Revokers in the sideboard. The deck dies to chalice of the void, so I was looking for good ways to deal with it (Repeal doesn't work, but I don't see any other bounce spell that cantrips). Also, I am running 4 back to basics in the sideboard to deal with Eldrazi/12post/mud mana bases. Locking up Cloudposts and Vesuva protects me from Eldrazi cast triggers and Eye of Ugin inevitability.
I believe that discard spells are not necessary. Not many legacy decks can win with only a starting hand and without combat. The deck becomes a lot more powerful when people mulligan, because that essentially lowers the number of cards you have to deal with to 4 (2 lands, 4 business) while the new mulligan scry rule favors lantern because you know whether you should blind mill or not.
Also, while Brainstorm is good, it is just one card of many. They don't always open with a Brainstorm and drawing into Brainstorms is difficult against this deck. Brainstorm can whiff too (or not), but it doesn't invalidate the deck at all. I'm playing Pyxis of Pandemonium because it's way too dangerous to play Ghoulcaller's Bell in a format that thrives on filled graveyards.
Here's the current Legacy version I'm working on. I really like the previous version as well.
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Pithing Needle
3 Field of Dreams
4 Brainstorm
4 Metamorphose
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 City of Traitors
2 Academy Ruins
I would like to squeeze in a few more blue cards. Haven't had as much time to work on this as I'd like.
Do you have a sideboard for this list yet? I'm thinking about taking it to my weekly legacy event tonight.
If wizards would print a green, black and white version of Hydroblast and Blue Elemental Blast Painter could be done in every color.
RRImperial PainterRR
UUUUMonoOmniTellUUUU
BGURWDredgeWRUGB
The sultai version is quite fun and reasonable. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/13-03-16-hst-legacy-lantern/
Hit us with a successful event report and list instead of a card price spike and speculation
Warning issued for trolling and censor evasion. Censor evasion removed.
- Teia
I have been testing lantern a good bit recently in legacy. I know there is a build that will work, I just don't know what it looks like yet.
I don't even know if he's on MTG Sally. I can find out at FNM though.
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
4 Pyxis of Pandemonium
2 Metamorphose
4 Unexpectedly Absent
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Energy Field
4 Rest in Peace
3 Pithing Needle
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Humility
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
3 Seachrome Coast
2 Tundra
1 Karakas
4 Plains
3 Island
3 Flusterstorm
4 Meddling Mage
2 Peacekeeper
2 Containment Priest
1 Back to Basics
1 Runed Halo
1 Cursed Totem
1 Porphyry Nodes
Obviously its a work-in-progress. Any advice or testing you guys want to throw at it be my guest. It's a bit easier to play that modern lantern since it doesn't require setting up the hard lock and then surviving.