EDIT(2/29/17): -1 Leatherback Baloth +1 Omnath, Locus of Mana
WINTER MAZE!
The idea behind this deck is to lock down your opponent's mana base with the frustrating synergy shared between Root Maze and Winter Orb followed by dropping massive fatties such as Progenitus and/or Dragonlord Atarka via Natural Order for the kill. While under the Winter Orb / Root Maze soft lock, generate hordes of mana with Arbor Elf off of a single Forest loaded with Wild Growths while your opponent struggles to untap. An array of singleton silver bullet cards have been included in the deck to be tutored up for any given situational event that you might find yourself. Creatures were chosen so that there is a Green Sun's Zenith target for every combination of mana you want to pump into it. A GSZ set at zero nets you Dryad Arbor, set to 1 you get Arbor Elf, set to 2 you get Scavenging Ooze, set to 3 you get Omnath etc..
WHY PLAY IT?
While not exactly budget the entire deck only costs around $380 with sideboard included and has been proven to so far compete with many of the best Legacy archetypes in the current meta. While it hasn't been exhaustively tested we will say this. It flat out stomps Death & Taxes, Burn and Lands. Delver variants also appear to be really favorable. We haven't tested every variant, but it does seem to go about 70/30 against Threshold variants. Stifle is a dead card against this deck and unless my opponent counters my mana engine spells, counters such as Daze and Spell Pierce are usually ineffective due to the large amounts of mana this deck produces. Grixis has not been tested.
Super fast combo such as BR Reanimator and Storm are its worst match ups but not impossible, especially after sideboard. Root Maze is just nuts against combo. As mentioned earlier testing hasn't been exhaustive but it can and does beat all of these decks. We were extremely impressed with how ridiculously resilient and strong this deck is against most decks in the meta. So far none of the match ups have been too terribly difficult. Further testing will include Miracles, Maverick, Pox and Eldrazi etc.. with sideboard geared towards it's most difficult match ups. The next step is to take it to a high level tournament and see where it places.
Often you will get explosive turn one plays such as: Drop a Forest, pitch Elvish Spirit Guide casting Wild Growth, tap Growthed Forest, cast Arbor Elf and Root Maze, pass the turn. Your opponent will get a tapped land drop and pass the turn back. You then drop Natural Order for Progenitus and follow up with either Winter Orb or Trinisphere for the lock. Game Over!
CARD EXPLANATIONS:
LOCK DOWN!
Root Maze: This card by itself is a house and is one of the keys to locking up your opponent's mana. This is your best turn one drop by far. Not only does Root Maze give most Storm combo decks fits by locking down your opponent's mana rocks (Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal) it also draws a lot of it's strength in the fact that 85% of all Legacy decks run Fetch Lands causing your opponent to wait three turns before they can draw any mana from them. Since we are not running Fetch Lands we will not be affected by this.
Winter Orb: Winter Orb by itself is house, combined with Root Maze it creates a near hard lock on your opponent. While winning games is not difficult without either of them the combination of the two of these cards is really the meat and potatoes of the deck.
Trinisphere: This is our third lock component. By itself it's amazing however you most likely won't want to drop it until after you established your mana engine. Combined with Winter Orb and/or Root Maze you will have an incredibly tight lock on your opponent.
MANA ENGINE / RAMP:
Wild Growth / Utopia Sprawl: These are not only here to ramp you into larger more expensive spells but they have amazing synergy with your Winter Orb lock giving you the freedom to cast what ever you want while your opponent is struggling to untap mana.
Arbor Elf: This guy is nuts here. He can generate between four and ten mana off of a single Forest stacked with multiple Growths. Getting him in play is the icing on the cake. He is typically your #1 target for GSZ.
Forest: One of the strengths of the deck is the fact that you are not running Fetch Lands and/or Non Basics. Fetch Lands have poor synergy with Root Maze and Non Basics can get hated out by the ubiquitous Wasteland. This is important when running Wild Growth. You cannot depend on stacking Wild Growths on non-basic lands that can essentially be Wasteland targets. Also, don't worry about the low land count of the deck, with Wild Growths etc.. there are 33 total sources of mana. You can easily power the entire deck off of a lone Forest with Wild Growths and Arbor Elves. In fact it is possible to generate so much mana that you can actually tutor up Progenitus with Green Sun's Zenith. That being said, running more than 12-13 land is a mistake. After you get your Winter Orb / Root Maze lock, dropping additional Forests is moot as they only come into play tapped and don't untap. Hard casting Dragonlord Atarka actually happens often with Utopia Sprawl and GSZing him happens all the time.
Elvish Spirit Guide: Last but not least, ESG allows for some explosive turn one plays but also is extremely nice as extra mana while you have Root Maze or Trinisphere out. He is also never a bad card to top deck as you can actually cast him late game for additional beats. Also, he is a nice surprise against your Delver opponent's Daze.
SEARCH / TUTORS:
Green Sun's Zenith: For the most part GSZ is here to serve as Arbor Elf numbers 5, 6, 7 and 8. Most of the time he will be your target to help set up your mana engine however GSZ is also here to grab Scavenging Ooze, Reclamation Sage, Omnath, Thragtusk and/or Thrun the Last Troll for random situations.
Natural Order: This card is your sucker punch, brass knuckles right-hook to the face. Most of the time you will use it to grab Progenitus however you will often choose to grab Dragonlord Atarka in the event that Progenitus happens to already be in your hand or to wipe the board clean of pesky critters. It also has the flexibility to really grab any silver bullet in your toolbox.
TOOL BOX and BEATZ:
Progenitus: No explanation is necessary here. Plop him onto the table with Natural Order and win in two turns. There are really not many ways to deal with him outside of Wrath effects and/or cards such as Ensnaring Bridge and Solitary Confinement. Drop him into the battlefield and smash face!
Dragonlord Atarka: He's a massive beater and clears the board. With the lack of creature removal for mono green and against decks that you need removal this is your guy. He can be GSZed, Natural Ordered or even easily hard cast into play with Utopia Sprawl. Although the deck appears to be light on creature removal it actually isn't. With GSZ, Natural Order, Dragonlord Atarka, Umezawa's Jitte and Masticore you are sitting at nine creature removal slots.
Omnath, Locus of Mana: Originally we had Tarmogoyf in this slot however we later realized that almost none of our spells ever hit the graveyard in which to give him the boost. Then we figured Leatherback Baloth and/or Yavimaya Enchantress were better suited as strong 3 drop beatsticks for applying early and late game pressure. Both have their pluses and minuses as in Yavimaya Enchantress can become much bigger than Baloth. Thanks to user Rendroc for the suggestion, Omnath, Locus of Mana has replaced all three original 3 drop slots and he is a perfect fit for so many reasons. He gets absolutely massive and the tons of extra mana that is not wasted at the end of phases and steps can be used to not only to cast large spells the following turn but also to pump into Masticore for slaying larger creatures such as Goyfs etc..
Masticore: People laugh at my Masticores only once. With the massive amount of mana this deck produces he mops up Delvers, Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic, Mother of Runes, Dark Confidant etc.. He literally can and does end games. His draw back is really not a problem due to the fact that you will have plenty of cards to feed his upkeep once you get your lock going. Playing extra lands while under the Root Maze / Orb lock is moot as your lands come into play tapped and don't untap. Instead of playing them, save them for Masticore fuel. This can also be said of extra lock pieces after your lock is already in place. Dropping a second or third Root Maze, Winter Orb or Trinisphere is moot. Save them. One card in particular that is nice to pitch to him is Progenitus. Doing nothing while he is in your hand Progenitus can be pitched to the graveyard only to get shuffled back in with his ability and brought back out via Natural Order. Masticore's other pluses is that he has a massive body and regenerates.
Umezawa's Jitte: While technically not a beat stick it can certainly lay down some pain. It mops up weenies, gains you life and makes your creatures huge. The utility here needs no explanation. There is a reason this is a Legacy staple.
Lodestone Golem: For obvious reasons, he is here to further lock up your opponent's mana and smash their face with his sizable 5/3 body. He's a perfect fit.
Thragtusk: This guy is easily fetched with GSZ to help you beat down your opponent. His life gain slows down Burn opponents and his "create a token" ability can save you from mass removal spells, in particular Terminus which happens to be everywhere in the current meta as the most popular deck right now is Miracles.
Scavenging Ooze: Another silver bullet worth the attention of your GSZ. This guy is great for stopping graveyard based decks such as Dredge and Reanimator but also for shrinking Tarmogoyfs minimizing an opponent's Deathrite Shaman fuel. Gaining life doesn't hurt either and the fact that he grows makes him an obvious inclusion.
Thrun, the Last Troll: His converted mana cost of 4 makes him a great choice for GSZ and his hexproof ability can cause headaches for your opponent. Better yet he can't be countered making him awesome in the Miracles matchup. There is nothing to dislike about him.
Dryad Arbor: This guy turns your GSZ's into Llanowar Elves. He's incredible here for ramping up to your big spells or for situations where you didn't draw much in the way of mana in your opening hand. He is also a perfect GSZ target when you are in need of a creature to sack to Natural Order.
SIDEBOARD:
Cursed Totem: You really need Cursed Totem for your sideboard in this deck. Elves will give you fits otherwise. Not only that, it helps shut down a number of cards such as Griselbrand, Deathrite Shaman etc.. Swap this in in place of your Arbor Elves as they will be useless otherwise.
Mindbreak Trap: This is here to stop Storm Combo decks dead. Swap them in place of Winter Orb which typically won't do much in this match up anyway. Along side Root Maze, Storm shouldn't be too bad of a match up.
Krosan Grip: You will need these to take out Counterbalance. Miracles is currently the deck to beat. Run at least three.
Xantid Swarm / Deathrite Shaman: Both can be fetched with GSZ therefore only one of each is included in the sidboard. Deathrite Shaman is here for additional grave hate and other tricks. Xantid Swarm is really good against blue control strategies. Not limited to but in particular an irritating Force of Will that won't let you resolve Root Maze or Winter Orb.
Acidic Slime: This guy is here for a number of obvious reasons. One though that might be overlooked is his ability to take out land. That said he is sided in against Dark Depths.
I am glad you got somewhere with this deck. I followed your efforts on Root Maze for a while. It sounds like its got a final version, Natural Order is a great wincon for the more prison based green lists. Maze is certainly a powerful card, it is nice to see it find a home.
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Thanks Drmarkb! My brother and I have been playing variants of this deck all summer and fall and now we feel that it is tuned well enough for a primer. Suggestions are also welcome. Again, thank you!
Thanks for the input Xoddy! I considered Mirri's Guile but never tested it. My thoughts were that with the lack of fetchlands in the deck you couldn't really abuse it as you have no way of shuffling. I have considered Harmonize though which seems really good as the cc is really easy to meet.
As far as lack of lock pieces which does happen from time to time I've found that the GSZ and NO toolbox and/or large beats such as Leatherback Baloth, Dragonlord Atarka, Lodestone Golem, Thrun, Masticore and Thragtusk usually do the trick. As I said in the mini primer the deck still wins without Winter Orb, Root Maze and Trinisphere. A turn one Root Maze without Winter Orb is really just a tempo play on your opponent and especially if your opponent is running fetchlands. Drawing it late game isn't too bad either if you already have Winter Orb in play. If that's not the case just pitch it to Masticore.
As far as the signature move (turn 2 NO) I usually will bait my opponent with a series of threats from Winter Orb to heavy beats to fish out FOWs and Counterspells. This is common in the Delver match ups and usually it ends up in my favor. If they don't counter the Winter Orb or the heavy beats they are in bad shape if they do you follow up with NO for Progenitus.
Keep testing it though. I'd really like to see how some of the other match ups go. I'm really curious about the Miracles and Eldrazi match ups go.
I have used Root Maze and Suppression Field in a multi-color Stasis list and it worked pretty damn well against a lot of decent decks, probably better than the Stasis in that list. Would this deck be able to support enough non fetch white lands to use this tech alongside your NO plan? Another point from that list was that there is a nice root Maze/Tsabo's web synergy.
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@Daklein and Xoddy: I actually originally considered a lone Ruric Thar before I found Dragonlord Atarka. He is easily fetchable with Green Sun's Zenith and Natural Order and can be hard cast off of Utopia Sprawl. But is Utopia Sprawl enough in the event you draw him?? Another thought I had was to include a lone Deathrite Shaman or Bird's of Paradise to be fetched up with Green Sun's Zenith making splashing a second color (red) possible. Thoughts??
@drmarkb: Tsabo's Web is a really good idea. Possibly sideboard??
Yeah, Empyrial Archangel is nuts!! He could be considered over Dragonlord Atarka. Possibly better. I like that Dragonlord is hard removal though. It probably comes down to personal preference. Thank you for the suggestion. Elderscale and/or Worldspine on the SB are not a bad idea either. Really though Empyrial Archangel in many cases should just end games, so much power there especially under Winter Orb or just tempo plays with Root Maze when your opponent is playing fetchlands.
EDIT: Speaking of tempo plays, I've been testing Tangle Wire in the Trinisphere slot. It doesn't seem like a tempo card but really it is, especially while your opponent is under Winter Orb and you get an early beater such as Baloth or Lodestone Golem to apply pressure.
I completely agree with everything you just mentioned. While the sb does need to be geared towards it's worst match up (combo), Sigarda is another great sb option.
I wish there was a way to fetch and also bounce Tangle Wire reliably. I have though about using Invasive Species for a single rebuy, which will probably be enough to win the game or draw into another Tangle Wire.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Sweet deck. Might I ask how it got the nickname "the shining"? I get the winter maze part.
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Standard // nRG Aggro
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
@ddxxe: Thanks for asking. I have a tendency to name my decks after horror movies. Of course the Winter Maze soft lock gets its name from Winter Orb and Root Maze. In the horror film The Shining Jack Torrence (played by Jack Nicholson) dies by getting lost in a snowy winter hedge maze hence the image I included in the primer.
@Rendroc: Masticore is just nuts in this deck. With the amount of mana this deck produces he literally mops up on D&T and Delver opponents. I have considered other removal dudes in this slot though. In particular dudes that can be tutored up with GSZ such as Ulvenwald Tracker, Deadly Recluse, Master of the Wild Hunt and Polukranos, World Eater. But all of those are too conditional, Masticore just does his business right there on the spot and then smashes face for 4, and then still has the ability to regenerate.
Tangle Wire is ridiculously good in this deck and I would really like to run at least two but I really cannot find the room to squeeze them in. The deck operates fine with two in the Trinisphere slot but really I'd like to run both. I have considered cutting two beat sticks for two Tanglewire such as either Thrun and Thrag or both Masticores but the deck really operates nicely as it is. There is a fine line when cutting your aggro cards for more control. You do really want more control in this deck but do you want it at the cost of the added pressure and tenacity of Thrag and Thrun?
I think it might make sense to run Eladamri, Lord of Leaves in the 2cc slot to protect the Arbor Elf's. Unfortunately WOTC changed the Oracle text to "Other Elves...". It makes him a lot worse.
I wish there was a way to fetch and also bounce Tangle Wire reliably. I have though about using Invasive Species for a single rebuy, which will probably be enough to win the game or draw into another Tangle Wire.
An issue I foresee in this deck is drawing both Progenitus and Archangel.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
ESG is one of the deck's MVP's. Under both Root Maze and Trinisphere it drops for free. Chrome Mox does not, and late in the game is a creature for blocking and attacking. Also she doesn't required the card disadvantage. Not a big fan of Chrome Mox here.
Omnath, Locus of Mana is one that I've recently been looking into and you are right. He deserves to be in this 3 drop Baloth slot. We had tested Yavimaya Enchantress and Baloth here and couldn't decide but OLM is cleary the best option. Will be updating the deck list and primer soon.
Eladamri, Lord of Leaves (or a protection Mother of Runes type dude) does seem good. I originally had Sylvan Safekeeper main deck. She had/has nice synergy in particular with locked up tapped land but cut her. I could certainly approve lists running her but I cut her out for more heavy bombs. She's definitely my protection favored choice and could see her in future lists.
I've also thought about a Tangle Wire package with Invasive Species and/or Eternal Witness. In a similar manner to the old school Vintage Stax and Tools n' Tubbies lists that ran Goblin Welder, I could see recurring Tangle Wire as awesomeness. I just don't see where I can make room.
I would like to bump up the control suite to 12 instead of 10 though. The deck is so nuts as it is.
Hi there guys. First of all I wanted to say that this deck looks really nice! Good work till now. I wanted to build the deck myself so I goldfished this deck in your link and some things came to my mind(this is my personal opinion)
1. I often ended up with only one lock piece and missing the second part. Maybe lock piece 11+12 should be added or something to dig them up more reliably maybe something like Vessel of nascency ? Idk
2. A better or more flexible toolbox would be nice maybe Terastodon ruric thar woodfall primus and imperyal archangel would be nice, either sideboard or mainboard
3. In my meta maverick is quite popular and there are some things in the deck which kill our strategy or disable our toolbox
Gaddock teeg denies NO and GSZ also all fatties. Pridemage kills our lock so maybe Beast within could be a good addition to deal with problem creatures or planeswalkers
4. Jitte felt a bit underwhelming so far
These are just my 2 cents. keep up the good work and I hope this develops even more. I hope to test it in paper against some other decks
Greetings Heskatet
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"Master they threatened to darken the sky with their arrows!"
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
Yeah, but it's really more "Disney Evil" than practical. It's like being a bond villain and giving a monologue rather then just shooting them.
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
I feel like the manabase is too fragile. 12 lands is nothing. I run 2 Chrome Mox for some insurance, they are great with Winter Orb anyways. Sure, if we have 1 mana source in hand and a GSZ, we can fetch for Dryad arbor, but I'm not sure what the math is on this, but I'm not sure how reliable the mana base is. And the Arbor can just get bolted and we're screwed. Also, Maze and Winter while good together is also a nonbo. Maze into Orb means that Orb enters tapped and they get to untap all lands. That's pretty *****. So while I like the idea the deck is going for, it's got some major issues.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Looking over this list, enjoying it a lot. Have you considered Magus of the Candelabra as additional mana ramp? Not quite as efficient as Arbor Elf but combos nicely with your enchant lands, much better than Elder Druid. Alternately one could use the Candelabra itself, but it's not Green Sun searchable. The Candelabra has the advantage of not being Boltable, though due to Root Maze it will be effectively "summoning sick" (enter tapped).
As for early plays, it seems to me that t1 Arbor Elf may actually be a better play than Root Maze even if you have it. At least, if you're on the play. If your Elf survives to t2, then you can play a second forest, tap 3 mana, and plop the Orb and Maze in THAT order. If you're lucky the oppo tapped down on their turn and you have them on lock.
Not sure I like Tangle Wire as much as Trinisphere. Heck, even Sphere of Resistance would work. Under Winter Orb, in Legacy, anything that makes the oppo's spells cost more than 1 will severely punish most "fair" decks.
Where you are going to run into SERIOUS problems is with Dredge, which doesn't play fair, and especially with Manaless Dredge, which will laugh itself silly at your Maze/Orb combo and kill you. A singleton ScOoze might not even save you, they have Contagions specifically for him. Frankly you should just be splashing white and running Rest in Peace, it's the strongest possible graveyard hate and usually Dredge has to scoop to it. But I understand that the splash might be difficult. Failing that, you can try adding in Deathrite Shaman, though that strategy also has flaws. Wheel of Sun and Moon isn't tutorable, but it's still pretty strong against Dredge if you can survive whatever they've currently got buried.
Dredge btw is the other reason to prefer Trinisphere / Sphere of Resistance over Tangle Wire. Adding mana costs to Therapy and Dread Return tends to stop Dredge in its tracks.
Edit: Have you considered combining Urban Burgeoning with Omnath, Locus of Mana? This can generate some pretty stupid amounts of mana in short order. Even without Omnath, UB lets you cheat past Winter Orb so it still works as ramp under Orb.
P.S., searching Gatherer for more land auras and astonished that there really is only Wild Growth and Utopia Sprawl. Trace of Abundance and Fertile Ground both cost 2, and every other aura that could buff the land costs even more. I say I'm astonished because Wild Growth is the sort of card I would really have expected there to be a functional copy of in one of the Portal sets. As a result we only have eight 1-cost aura ramps, not quite the critical mass we need to be entirely effective. Does anyone else find this an unusual case of WotC making a smart design decision back in the 90's?
White would also allow Suppression Field, which is disgusting with RM vs any fetch heavy deck.
I would like to have a go at this deck, but would need a few months to give it a real bash, which I don't have right now with my other projects (Stasis/Trinity and to a lesser extent Soldier Stompy, which is probably as good as it can be but which they keep releasing new cards for that need testing) still requiring my time, and with me also owning a number of other decks (most of which I don't play and keep to loan out) some of which need to be updated pretty frequently.....
I guess the good thing about a really off the wall deck in Legacy is that you can spend a year or so refining a deck, the meta moves slowly and the data you get is rarely wasted.
Just to give you guys the heads up I have been super busy with work and haven't had a chance to test all of the suggestions. Sorry for the late repy. Also really want to test this against Miracle's as it is the top deck right now. Any help with that would be super appreciated. Btw, thank you all for the suggestions!!
@Heskatet: Ruric Thar, the Unbowed and Empyrial Archangel are great suggestions. Not sure what to cut for testing but perhaps running a third mega fatty along side of Progenitus and Dragonlord is a good idea as Rendroc has stated. This in the event that you draw both Progenitus and Dragonlord you still can Natural Order out another fatty. I'm leaning towards Ruric Thar as not only can he be Natural Ordered but he can also be hard cast easily off of Utopia Sprawl and fetched with GSZ. I think at this point our only decent flex slot is Jitte. Also, Beast Within might be decent, most likely on the sb though. Gaddock Teeg is easily munched up by Masticore.
@Rendroc: I fully took your advice with Omnath. Awesome suggestion and thank you btw! The primer has been updated. Also I really like your idea of Tangle Wire. I did originally run 4 main deck. I can't quite remember why I cut them but I might retest. The likely slot they will fit, is in place of the Jittes bringing my lock pieces up to 14 counting Lodestone Golem. Invasive Species is interesting here with Tangle Wire but also with cards such as Wall of Blossoms and Acidic Slime. It's certainly worth testing. As far as the mana base goes I rarely have trouble but you are right, Arbor Elf can easily be bolted. I might revist Sylvan Safekeeper for added protection.
@Kasreyn: Magus of the Candelabra looks interesting. Worth testing although I feel we are good with ramp. There are already 33 mana sources most of which are ramp. In fact this deck produces so much mana often I don't know what to do with it. This is why Omnath is so great here. Also this is what makes Masticore so good. Sphere of Resistance is also really good in this deck. I used to run 4 main deck. There are really two routes you can take here. My original route was more controlish and focused on getting a more solid hard lock with Black Vise for the kill, then I started leaning towards a GSZ toolbox and tempo strategy axing much of lock pieces. So there is a balance between tempo beats and locking out my opponent. I am leaning towards Tangle Wire. It works great in the tempo strategy and as dangerous as this deck can get with Natural Order, Tangle Wire is often exactly what I need for buying a couple of turns to finish off my opponent.
@drmarkb: I've toyed with the idea of Suppression Field. It's bonkers with Root Maze! I even had an Enchantress brew I was working on that ran both but abandoned that project in favor of this. Splashing white might not be too hard without having to run nonbasics. Cards such as Noble Hierarch, Birds of Paradise, DRS etc.. that can be fetched with GSZ not to mention the already main deck Utopia Sprawl. I've also toyed with splashing red using Burning-Tree Emissary.
Oh right, I see what you're saying. Yeah, Teeg can be dangerous. Didn't notice that, your right, he can pretty much shut down the deck. Beast Within is probably necessary in the sb for that reason. Maybe -1x Xantid Swarm -1 Pithing Needle +2 Beast Within for the sb. I'd like to maybe squeeze in one more but not sure what to cut. Cursed Totem really deserves it's slot for the Elves match up which does see play, but I'm tempted to cut one. I've also considered Dismember but Beast Within is more versitile.
I know that masticore eats gaddock teeg but not if teeg hits the field first. I will try the beast within inthe sb slot.
Gaddock Teeg
- does not stop you casting Masticore, which is an Artifact Creature, thus immune to the "4 or more non-creature spell" line. Masticore
I would really like to have a go at this deck in GW form with S field- fetch free. It just looks to have a lot of potential, as most Trinisphere decks do if they can restrict mana.
Thank you, I didn't know that. There isn't a lot of Maverick in my area so I haven't played against Gaddock Teeg much.
And, yes, I also wouldn't mind toying around with a white splash for Suppression Field. I'm thinking a lone Noble Hierarch to be tutored up with GSZ to go along with Utopia Sprawl as your white sources of mana although totaled up that is only 9 white sources. 4x GSZ 4x Utopia Sprawl 1x Noble Hierarch. But then you gain access to white which allows not only Suppression Field but also Swords to Plowshares, Ghostly Prison etc..
Or Abundant Growth. You don't have to sacrifice it as with Unbridaled Growth. And although neither of them provide you with an additional mana it is a color fixer and basically cycles (replacing itself) essentially making your deck 56 cards.
I went to my first Legacy tournament last night with this list (using a few tweaks) and got 2-2, which isn't too bad considering it's my first time playing Legacy and first time piloting this deck. Amongst a sea of established D & T, Miracles, Delver, and combo decks, everybody wanted to stop what they were doing and see what this deck was about, which was really cool. Many opponents had to stop and read what Root Maze and Wild Growth do.
My list is same as OP but with the following changes:
Why is Garruk Wildspeaker not in these lists? I see now Comicaflop added it in his list. I like his changes. I had Tangle Wire in my list.
Again, drawing your Natural Order targets means you have dead cards in hand. Drawing all of them probably means you lose. Maze into Orb is horrible because Orb's effect only functions when it's untapped.
I wonder if it makes sense to ditch the natural order plan, and just go with 4x Garruk and try to take over the game with Garruk Wildspeaker. He actually fits with the gameplan of the deck, and is a win condition as well. This would free up a few spots in the deck.
Even though I don't like a lot of things about the deck, I though I'd give it another go with Garruk. I think he is essential to the deck.
I just played one game so far with the list below, and it happened to be against Miracles and I won. Opponent ragequit after game 1 which is usually the case when people lose with their Tier 1 netdeck to a deck they've never seen before. Also, this deck is probably just quite infuriating to play against once you have a pretty hard lock.
The funny thing is, once you have a Lodestone and Garruk, it's not like you can really cast spells, but that's fine because Lodestones and beasts will take over the game.
I have a full hand and I'm not casting anything really besides Lodestone Golems if I can. This is one of the reason I like Chrome Mox a lot, not to mention it's great with Winter Orb. I think it should probably be at least a 3-of.
I wonder if Trinisphere is better than Tangle Wire.
Also, is Cursed Scroll really better than Phyrexian Revoker here?
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
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4x Arbor Elf
1x Progenitus
1x Dragonlord Atarka
1x Omnath, Locus of Mana
2x Lodestone Golem
2x Masticore
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Thragtusk
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Reclamation Sage
4x Root Maze
2x Trinisphere
4x Winter Orb
RAMP (12)
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Wild Growth
LAND (13)
1x Dryad Arbor
12x Forest
SEARCH (8)
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Natural Order
2x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Cursed Totem
1x Deathrite Shaman
3x Krosan Grip
2x Mindbreak Trap
1x Pithing Needle
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Acidic Slime
1x Xantid Swarm
EDIT(2/29/17): -1 Leatherback Baloth +1 Omnath, Locus of Mana
WINTER MAZE!
CARD EXPLANATIONS:
LOCK DOWN!
MANA ENGINE / RAMP:
SEARCH / TUTORS:
TOOL BOX and BEATZ:
SIDEBOARD:
Give the deck a spin and playtest here.
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As far as lack of lock pieces which does happen from time to time I've found that the GSZ and NO toolbox and/or large beats such as Leatherback Baloth, Dragonlord Atarka, Lodestone Golem, Thrun, Masticore and Thragtusk usually do the trick. As I said in the mini primer the deck still wins without Winter Orb, Root Maze and Trinisphere. A turn one Root Maze without Winter Orb is really just a tempo play on your opponent and especially if your opponent is running fetchlands. Drawing it late game isn't too bad either if you already have Winter Orb in play. If that's not the case just pitch it to Masticore.
As far as the signature move (turn 2 NO) I usually will bait my opponent with a series of threats from Winter Orb to heavy beats to fish out FOWs and Counterspells. This is common in the Delver match ups and usually it ends up in my favor. If they don't counter the Winter Orb or the heavy beats they are in bad shape if they do you follow up with NO for Progenitus.
Keep testing it though. I'd really like to see how some of the other match ups go. I'm really curious about the Miracles and Eldrazi match ups go.
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@drmarkb: Tsabo's Web is a really good idea. Possibly sideboard??
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EDIT: Speaking of tempo plays, I've been testing Tangle Wire in the Trinisphere slot. It doesn't seem like a tempo card but really it is, especially while your opponent is under Winter Orb and you get an early beater such as Baloth or Lodestone Golem to apply pressure.
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A few very important things..
I think it might make sense to run Eladamri, Lord of Leaves in the 2cc slot to protect the Arbor Elf's.
Why Masticore of all creatures?? I feel like you can find a better card out there.
Seedborn Muse could be a good way to get mana advantage, though I think it's better to focus on taxing the opponent.
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician has the kind of effect I'm looking for in this deck, although I'm not sure Derevi fits in the deck.
Elder Druid also has a great effect for this deck, but it may be too mana intensive.
Similar Artifacts with this effect are Floodwater Dam, Icy Manipulator, Mishra's Helix, and Ring of Gix, though Tangle Wire might just trump all of them and Make Magic Great Again.
Tangle Wire combines delightfully with Orb and Maze so I think it's much better than Trinisphere in this deck.
I replaced Leatherback Baloth at the 3cc slot with Omnath, Locus of Mana because he can get much bigger.
I wish there was a way to fetch and also bounce Tangle Wire reliably. I have though about using Invasive Species for a single rebuy, which will probably be enough to win the game or draw into another Tangle Wire.
This is my list
// 10 Artifact
4 Winter Orb
2 Chrome Mox
4 Tangle Wire
// 18 Creature
4 Arbor Elf
1 Progenitus
1 Omnath, Locus of Mana
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Root Maze
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
// 12 Land
12 Forest
// 8 Sorcery
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
3 Cursed Totem
1 Pithing Needle
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Acidic Slime
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Krosan Grip
1 Mindbreak Trap
3 Surgical Extraction
When this deck works, it works amazingly and prevents your opponent from playing Magic at all.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
@Rendroc: Masticore is just nuts in this deck. With the amount of mana this deck produces he literally mops up on D&T and Delver opponents. I have considered other removal dudes in this slot though. In particular dudes that can be tutored up with GSZ such as Ulvenwald Tracker, Deadly Recluse, Master of the Wild Hunt and Polukranos, World Eater. But all of those are too conditional, Masticore just does his business right there on the spot and then smashes face for 4, and then still has the ability to regenerate.
Tangle Wire is ridiculously good in this deck and I would really like to run at least two but I really cannot find the room to squeeze them in. The deck operates fine with two in the Trinisphere slot but really I'd like to run both. I have considered cutting two beat sticks for two Tanglewire such as either Thrun and Thrag or both Masticores but the deck really operates nicely as it is. There is a fine line when cutting your aggro cards for more control. You do really want more control in this deck but do you want it at the cost of the added pressure and tenacity of Thrag and Thrun?
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I replaced Leatherback Baloth at the 3cc slot with Omnath, Locus of Mana because he can get much bigger.
I think it might make sense to run Eladamri, Lord of Leaves in the 2cc slot to protect the Arbor Elf's. Unfortunately WOTC changed the Oracle text to "Other Elves...". It makes him a lot worse.
I wish there was a way to fetch and also bounce Tangle Wire reliably. I have though about using Invasive Species for a single rebuy, which will probably be enough to win the game or draw into another Tangle Wire.
An issue I foresee in this deck is drawing both Progenitus and Archangel.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Omnath, Locus of Mana is one that I've recently been looking into and you are right. He deserves to be in this 3 drop Baloth slot. We had tested Yavimaya Enchantress and Baloth here and couldn't decide but OLM is cleary the best option. Will be updating the deck list and primer soon.
Eladamri, Lord of Leaves (or a protection Mother of Runes type dude) does seem good. I originally had Sylvan Safekeeper main deck. She had/has nice synergy in particular with locked up tapped land but cut her. I could certainly approve lists running her but I cut her out for more heavy bombs. She's definitely my protection favored choice and could see her in future lists.
I've also thought about a Tangle Wire package with Invasive Species and/or Eternal Witness. In a similar manner to the old school Vintage Stax and Tools n' Tubbies lists that ran Goblin Welder, I could see recurring Tangle Wire as awesomeness. I just don't see where I can make room.
I would like to bump up the control suite to 12 instead of 10 though. The deck is so nuts as it is.
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1. I often ended up with only one lock piece and missing the second part. Maybe lock piece 11+12 should be added or something to dig them up more reliably maybe something like Vessel of nascency ? Idk
2. A better or more flexible toolbox would be nice maybe Terastodon ruric thar woodfall primus and imperyal archangel would be nice, either sideboard or mainboard
3. In my meta maverick is quite popular and there are some things in the deck which kill our strategy or disable our toolbox
Gaddock teeg denies NO and GSZ also all fatties. Pridemage kills our lock so maybe Beast within could be a good addition to deal with problem creatures or planeswalkers
4. Jitte felt a bit underwhelming so far
These are just my 2 cents. keep up the good work and I hope this develops even more. I hope to test it in paper against some other decks
Greetings Heskatet
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
As for early plays, it seems to me that t1 Arbor Elf may actually be a better play than Root Maze even if you have it. At least, if you're on the play. If your Elf survives to t2, then you can play a second forest, tap 3 mana, and plop the Orb and Maze in THAT order. If you're lucky the oppo tapped down on their turn and you have them on lock.
Not sure I like Tangle Wire as much as Trinisphere. Heck, even Sphere of Resistance would work. Under Winter Orb, in Legacy, anything that makes the oppo's spells cost more than 1 will severely punish most "fair" decks.
Where you are going to run into SERIOUS problems is with Dredge, which doesn't play fair, and especially with Manaless Dredge, which will laugh itself silly at your Maze/Orb combo and kill you. A singleton ScOoze might not even save you, they have Contagions specifically for him. Frankly you should just be splashing white and running Rest in Peace, it's the strongest possible graveyard hate and usually Dredge has to scoop to it. But I understand that the splash might be difficult. Failing that, you can try adding in Deathrite Shaman, though that strategy also has flaws. Wheel of Sun and Moon isn't tutorable, but it's still pretty strong against Dredge if you can survive whatever they've currently got buried.
Dredge btw is the other reason to prefer Trinisphere / Sphere of Resistance over Tangle Wire. Adding mana costs to Therapy and Dread Return tends to stop Dredge in its tracks.
Edit: Have you considered combining Urban Burgeoning with Omnath, Locus of Mana? This can generate some pretty stupid amounts of mana in short order. Even without Omnath, UB lets you cheat past Winter Orb so it still works as ramp under Orb.
P.S., searching Gatherer for more land auras and astonished that there really is only Wild Growth and Utopia Sprawl. Trace of Abundance and Fertile Ground both cost 2, and every other aura that could buff the land costs even more. I say I'm astonished because Wild Growth is the sort of card I would really have expected there to be a functional copy of in one of the Portal sets. As a result we only have eight 1-cost aura ramps, not quite the critical mass we need to be entirely effective. Does anyone else find this an unusual case of WotC making a smart design decision back in the 90's?
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
I would like to have a go at this deck, but would need a few months to give it a real bash, which I don't have right now with my other projects (Stasis/Trinity and to a lesser extent Soldier Stompy, which is probably as good as it can be but which they keep releasing new cards for that need testing) still requiring my time, and with me also owning a number of other decks (most of which I don't play and keep to loan out) some of which need to be updated pretty frequently.....
I guess the good thing about a really off the wall deck in Legacy is that you can spend a year or so refining a deck, the meta moves slowly and the data you get is rarely wasted.
@Heskatet: Ruric Thar, the Unbowed and Empyrial Archangel are great suggestions. Not sure what to cut for testing but perhaps running a third mega fatty along side of Progenitus and Dragonlord is a good idea as Rendroc has stated. This in the event that you draw both Progenitus and Dragonlord you still can Natural Order out another fatty. I'm leaning towards Ruric Thar as not only can he be Natural Ordered but he can also be hard cast easily off of Utopia Sprawl and fetched with GSZ. I think at this point our only decent flex slot is Jitte. Also, Beast Within might be decent, most likely on the sb though. Gaddock Teeg is easily munched up by Masticore.
@Rendroc: I fully took your advice with Omnath. Awesome suggestion and thank you btw! The primer has been updated. Also I really like your idea of Tangle Wire. I did originally run 4 main deck. I can't quite remember why I cut them but I might retest. The likely slot they will fit, is in place of the Jittes bringing my lock pieces up to 14 counting Lodestone Golem. Invasive Species is interesting here with Tangle Wire but also with cards such as Wall of Blossoms and Acidic Slime. It's certainly worth testing. As far as the mana base goes I rarely have trouble but you are right, Arbor Elf can easily be bolted. I might revist Sylvan Safekeeper for added protection.
@Kasreyn: Magus of the Candelabra looks interesting. Worth testing although I feel we are good with ramp. There are already 33 mana sources most of which are ramp. In fact this deck produces so much mana often I don't know what to do with it. This is why Omnath is so great here. Also this is what makes Masticore so good. Sphere of Resistance is also really good in this deck. I used to run 4 main deck. There are really two routes you can take here. My original route was more controlish and focused on getting a more solid hard lock with Black Vise for the kill, then I started leaning towards a GSZ toolbox and tempo strategy axing much of lock pieces. So there is a balance between tempo beats and locking out my opponent. I am leaning towards Tangle Wire. It works great in the tempo strategy and as dangerous as this deck can get with Natural Order, Tangle Wire is often exactly what I need for buying a couple of turns to finish off my opponent.
@drmarkb: I've toyed with the idea of Suppression Field. It's bonkers with Root Maze! I even had an Enchantress brew I was working on that ran both but abandoned that project in favor of this. Splashing white might not be too hard without having to run nonbasics. Cards such as Noble Hierarch, Birds of Paradise, DRS etc.. that can be fetched with GSZ not to mention the already main deck Utopia Sprawl. I've also toyed with splashing red using Burning-Tree Emissary.
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"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
Currently Playing:
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- does not stop you casting Masticore, which is an Artifact Creature, thus immune to the "4 or more non-creature spell" line.
Masticore
I would really like to have a go at this deck in GW form with S field- fetch free. It just looks to have a lot of potential, as most Trinisphere decks do if they can restrict mana.
And, yes, I also wouldn't mind toying around with a white splash for Suppression Field. I'm thinking a lone Noble Hierarch to be tutored up with GSZ to go along with Utopia Sprawl as your white sources of mana although totaled up that is only 9 white sources. 4x GSZ 4x Utopia Sprawl 1x Noble Hierarch. But then you gain access to white which allows not only Suppression Field but also Swords to Plowshares, Ghostly Prison etc..
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My list is same as OP but with the following changes:
-1 Omnath
-2 Masticore
-1 Thragtusk
-2 Trinisphere
-2 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Polukranos
+1 Walking Ballista
+2 Forest
+2 Lodestone Golem
+2 Garruk Wildspeaker
Sideboard:
3 Cursed Totem
1 Empyrial Archangel
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Guttural Response
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ruric Thar
1 Xantid Swarm
R1 0-2
Death & Taxes
R2 2-1
Elves
R3 0-2
Miracles
R4 2-0
BUG Food Chain
The newly spoiled Prowling Serpopard seems like a solid sideboard choice
EDH Decks:
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Tajic, Blade of the Legion
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Ezuri, Renegade Leader 1v1
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher 1v1
Hythonia the Cruel
Trying to build:
Jenara, Asura of War
Designing a Custom Set:
Clash of the Cultures: 5 Wedges, 5 Cultures
Providing Artwork for:
Archester: Frontier of Steam
Again, drawing your Natural Order targets means you have dead cards in hand. Drawing all of them probably means you lose. Maze into Orb is horrible because Orb's effect only functions when it's untapped.
I wonder if it makes sense to ditch the natural order plan, and just go with 4x Garruk and try to take over the game with Garruk Wildspeaker. He actually fits with the gameplan of the deck, and is a win condition as well. This would free up a few spots in the deck.
Even though I don't like a lot of things about the deck, I though I'd give it another go with Garruk. I think he is essential to the deck.
I just played one game so far with the list below, and it happened to be against Miracles and I won. Opponent ragequit after game 1 which is usually the case when people lose with their Tier 1 netdeck to a deck they've never seen before. Also, this deck is probably just quite infuriating to play against once you have a pretty hard lock.
// 10 Artifact
4 Winter Orb
2 Chrome Mox
4 Tangle Wire
// 16 Creature
4 Arbor Elf
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Root Maze
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
// 14 Land
14 Forest
// 4 Planeswalker
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
// 4 Sorcery
4 Green Sun's Zenith
The funny thing is, once you have a Lodestone and Garruk, it's not like you can really cast spells, but that's fine because Lodestones and beasts will take over the game.
I have a full hand and I'm not casting anything really besides Lodestone Golems if I can. This is one of the reason I like Chrome Mox a lot, not to mention it's great with Winter Orb. I think it should probably be at least a 3-of.
I wonder if Trinisphere is better than Tangle Wire.
Also, is Cursed Scroll really better than Phyrexian Revoker here?
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC