For the past couple months I have been toying around with GW Food Chain.
Origins:
Awhile back a fellow mod and friend asked me to help them come up with a deck for Legacy. The criteria for the deck included fitting his budget while not being a "budget deck". This meant that there should be no card sacrifices made on cost. If the deck would want to run something, that card was getting played, regardless of cost. There was a secondary objective that any fetches and duals would be replaceable with shocks and cheaper fetches with minimal impact on the ultimate playability of the deck. This would allow the deck to be played sooner and then grow to full ideal form as they slowly invested money. I spent a long time thinking on the problem and after sketching out a good number of brew options, I settled on an early prototype of this list to try to tune into a competitive state. This list is the result of the tuning that followed.
Current tournament results have been promising with a number of pilots performing well in smaller events (for example, I went undefeated with it in two 4-rounder side events at GP San Jose at the end of January).
Parallel Attempts:
I know that a user on our very site has attempted a similar Bellower engine in the past in this thread. My development was independent from this and pretty clearly went in a wildly different direction. Nonetheless, I think it is worth checking out. (Also, this thread is distinct from that thread due to the wild difference in direction.)
This deck draws strongly from the same metagame attack vector as Aluren -- If you can present a reasonable fair gameplan alongside a game-ending
combo, opponents find themselves fighting each battle with mismatched resources.
The card choices are a tad eccentric, but they each fulfill a dedicated role that was demonstrated through testing, and many serve multiple roles. This is not a full primer, so I won't go into every choice, but I will go into some of the bigger surprises.
Cloudthresher -- This serves a couple roles. First, it lets you execute a kill off of 3 mana and double Fierce Empath by evoking cloudthresher and then exiling it for food chain in response to the sacrifice trigger. This puts you up to 7 mana, and Fierce Empath --> Woodland Bellower --> Fierce Empath terminates at 13 mana. This doesn't come up that often, but it does come up and specific contexts make it relevant. The second role, and the main role that pushed it into the deck was its ability for Fierce Empath to search for an answer to Delvers and Flickerwisps. A tertiary use is just as a way to answer planeswalkers (hard-to-answer flash threat in endstep that also can shock the planeswalker as it comes into play).
Skylasher -- Flyers were a really big problem. Also, it can ambush DRS and the like (and keep JTMS in check). I decided I needed this maindeck to actually fix the problem. It obviously is sided out very frequently.
Veteran Explorer -- I like to say that this is here just to block Tarmogoyf. Essentially this is only here to tutor to block on the ground or to sacrifice if the opponent has a Tabernacle in play. Sideboard it out if you don't expect it to die in the match-up.
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary -- This card is a hell of a lightning rod, and for good reason. You pretty much don't lose any game where you untap with it. It's a reasonable card to naturally draw and cast or to Green Sun's Zenith for. I added it as a tester following a brainstorming session and it quickly proved its worth.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
I've goldfish tested your build many times, and I've found that I prefer cutting the Visionary, Explorer, and Nissa for 3x Eternal Scourge.
Granted, I have a personal biase against Explorer, but the no-nonsense combo of Scourge-Chain mana gets around some of cards that disrupt the traditional combo.
That said, my tests were pure goldfish, so this is more theory then practice.
The problem I see with Eternal Scourge is that it doesn't win the game on its own. You need to have a Recruiter or Empath to fetch an Emrakul to chain into. But if you have a Recruiter or an Empath, you don't need Scourge's mana to go off.
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I've goldfish tested your build many times, and I've found that I prefer cutting the Visionary, Explorer, and Nissa for 3x Eternal Scourge.
Granted, I have a personal biase against Explorer, but the no-nonsense combo of Scourge-Chain mana gets around some of cards that disrupt the traditional combo.
That said, my tests were pure goldfish, so this is more theory then practice.
In straight goldfish, that would probably be best, because it doesn't account for the grindy gameplan that this deck falls back on. A single copy of Nissa is far better as an early game way to make land drops and late game threat off of GSZ.
Similarly, remember that Veteran Explorer is there solely to interact. It makes every GSZ an opportunity to set up a blocker that rockets you ahead to functional mana. It's not going to do much when your opponent isn't there.
On the topic of Visionary though, I'm unsure. Scourge goes infinite, sure, but you don't have a way to tutor it and it's not as good as your other critters in the absence of chain, and I include Visionary in that statement. As an example, vs Miracles you'd rather have visionary than scourge against terminus (doubly so if you have a gavony township running). Also, it's not super obvious, but the deck is a bit light in the 2-drop slot, and each 2-drop cut both weakens us to mana denial and lessens our explosiveness off of tight mana food chains (consider that a turn2 food chain cast off of DRS is only lethal if you have a 1-drop or a 2-drop to chain through to hit 3 mana to leverage your tutor dudes). I will mention however that even with all that said, I'm actually in the process of testing whether to cut the Visionary altogether (thus dropping the maindeck to 60).
The problem I see with Eternal Scourge is that it doesn't win the game on its own. You need to have a Recruiter or Empath to fetch an Emrakul to chain into. But if you have a Recruiter or an Empath, you don't need Scourge's mana to go off.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Wouldn't an elf deck that runs natural order be able to do what this deck does but way better? And if you splash white, well Windswept Heath is probably the cheapest fetchland there is right now.
Wouldn't an elf deck that runs natural order be able to do what this deck does but way better? And if you splash white, well Windswept Heath is probably the cheapest fetchland there is right now.
Elf decks have a bit more trouble grinding out Miracles. Also, Natural Order requires greater initial investment (the sacrifice is part of the cost), and that restricts your maneuverability significantly. In addition, the top targets for Natural Order are Ruric Thar, Craterhoof Behemoth, and Progenitus. Craterhoof requires a heavy board commitment already (easy in the actual Elves deck. Not necessarily advisable for other decks in many match-ups). Ruric Thar requires the opponent to be one of a specific subset of decks (and even some in that subset can handle it easily). And Progenitus is not the threat that it once was. The Emrakul kill in this deck combines the advantages of the craterhoof and progenitus kills while not entailing their weaknesses. We also get a number of small upsides, such as being able to combo through our own gaddock teeg.
Windswept Heath is indeed as cheap as it gets, but in case of the budget substitutions mentioned in the OP, the substitution would be a temporary replacement of Verdant Catacombs with Wooded Foothills.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
I see how the manabase is making concessions -- not enough black sources to run discard, etc. But I think you need to have some kind of game 1 plan and a serious game 2 plan against unfair decks.
This might be a 4x Leyline of sanctity sideboard plan deck -- with some other hate cards to stomp the answers to leyline.
I see how the manabase is making concessions -- not enough black sources to run discard, etc. But I think you need to have some kind of game 1 plan and a serious game 2 plan against unfair decks.
This might be a 4x Leyline of sanctity sideboard plan deck -- with some other hate cards to stomp the answers to leyline.
A turn 2 GSZ for Gaddock Teeg is actually quite often a hard lock against Storm maindeck, and other unfair decks are either better or worse depending on how they specifically line up to hate like Gaddock Teeg, Scavenging Ooze, and DRS. Lastly, we do have the ability to just "accidentally" hit our "I win" button as early as Turn 2.
Leyline is too rough on the SB slots. Also, I've been generally unimpressed with it in other decks. Most decks that would be stopped by it have the tools to play through it postboard.
Of the unfair decks, the only ones that I haven't felt great against are BR Reanimator and Combo Elves. I'm writing off elves as a match-up that would require impractical commitment to solve, but it does get somewhat impeded by the Engineered Plague that I'm testing in the SB. BR reanimator I read as a soft match-up, but I've beaten it in the last two tournaments that I've faced it, and I accept that not every match-up can be positive. With the amount of spots allocated to it in my board already, I'm comfortable with it as it is.
On the topic of the manabase, you're right that it's making concessions, but those concessions are for resiliency, not budget. Your fallback plan is casting absurdly expensive spells in a field of Wasteland. Maindeck black mana just isn't something I'm interested in fixing for when I can instead be VERY reliable on green mana.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Have you calculated your odds of ramping into a t2 GSZ?
I think it's a reasonable plan but not with 4 dorks--your only plans that lead to t2 teeg are 2x gsz or 1x deathrite+1xGSZ which I think means somewhere in the 15-20% vicinity. I almost think you'd want to be playing a worldly tutor or two if your plan is to toolbox your way out. Or some kinda low mana investment creature tutor (Eladamri's call? -- Problem with that is the awkward mana cost making it a t3 play).
Don't take this as negativity, just cautious excitement blended with a bit of skepticism I'd love to be able to make some kind of toolbox deck work in legacy without having to crowbar in discard, force, or a mana denial package. But it's just never seemed feasible.
Re: Leyline
I think it *should* pretty well vs. Storm because what you're trying to avoid with storm is not them targeting you with tendrils but them therapying or duressing your other stuff. But possibly not
Origins:
Awhile back a fellow mod and friend asked me to help them come up with a deck for Legacy. The criteria for the deck included fitting his budget while not being a "budget deck". This meant that there should be no card sacrifices made on cost. If the deck would want to run something, that card was getting played, regardless of cost. There was a secondary objective that any fetches and duals would be replaceable with shocks and cheaper fetches with minimal impact on the ultimate playability of the deck. This would allow the deck to be played sooner and then grow to full ideal form as they slowly invested money. I spent a long time thinking on the problem and after sketching out a good number of brew options, I settled on an early prototype of this list to try to tune into a competitive state. This list is the result of the tuning that followed.
Current tournament results have been promising with a number of pilots performing well in smaller events (for example, I went undefeated with it in two 4-rounder side events at GP San Jose at the end of January).
Parallel Attempts:
I know that a user on our very site has attempted a similar Bellower engine in the past in this thread. My development was independent from this and pretty clearly went in a wildly different direction. Nonetheless, I think it is worth checking out. (Also, this thread is distinct from that thread due to the wild difference in direction.)
Decklist and Explanations:
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Veteran Explorer
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Skylasher
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Fierce Empath
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Woodland Bellower
1 Sun Titan
1 Cloudthresher
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Food Chain
Spells: 7
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
Lands: 23
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gavony Township
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
7 Forest
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Qasali Ambusher
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Rest in Peace
1 Stony Silence
This deck draws strongly from the same metagame attack vector as Aluren -- If you can present a reasonable fair gameplan alongside a game-ending
combo, opponents find themselves fighting each battle with mismatched resources.
The basic combo is as follows. Depending on board state, any number of the initial steps may be shaved off (not counting step 0) and other intermediate steps may be added in (such as casting Ulamog before Emrakul to exile an opposing Karakas).
0. Resolve Food Chain.
1. Cast Recruiter of the Guard, find Recruiter of the Guard.
2. Exile Recruiter of the Guard, cast Recruiter of the Guard, find Fierce Empath. Floating mana is now 1.
3. Exile Recruiter of the Guard, cast Fierce Empath, find Woodland Bellower. Floating mana is now 2.
4. Exile Fierce Empath, cast Woodland Bellower, search for a Fierce Empath and put it into play. Find a Woodland Bellower with the Fierce Empath trigger. Floating mana is now 0.
4. Exile Woodland Bellower, cast Woodland Bellower, search for a Fierce Empath and put it into play. Find an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn with the Fierce Empath trigger. Floating mana is now 1.
5. Exile the Woodland Bellower and the two Fierce Empaths. Floating mana is now 16. Cast Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.
The card choices are a tad eccentric, but they each fulfill a dedicated role that was demonstrated through testing, and many serve multiple roles. This is not a full primer, so I won't go into every choice, but I will go into some of the bigger surprises.
Cloudthresher -- This serves a couple roles. First, it lets you execute a kill off of 3 mana and double Fierce Empath by evoking cloudthresher and then exiling it for food chain in response to the sacrifice trigger. This puts you up to 7 mana, and Fierce Empath --> Woodland Bellower --> Fierce Empath terminates at 13 mana. This doesn't come up that often, but it does come up and specific contexts make it relevant. The second role, and the main role that pushed it into the deck was its ability for Fierce Empath to search for an answer to Delvers and Flickerwisps. A tertiary use is just as a way to answer planeswalkers (hard-to-answer flash threat in endstep that also can shock the planeswalker as it comes into play).
Skylasher -- Flyers were a really big problem. Also, it can ambush DRS and the like (and keep JTMS in check). I decided I needed this maindeck to actually fix the problem. It obviously is sided out very frequently.
Knight of the Reliquary -- This is the largest body that a "fair" (non-combo) Woodland Bellower can put into play. Bonus points for being able to tap for mana (essentially) and tutor Dryad Arbor, Gavony Township, and Bojuka Bog as the need arises. Also tutorable by Green Sun's Zenith and Recruiter of the Guard of course.
Veteran Explorer -- I like to say that this is here just to block Tarmogoyf. Essentially this is only here to tutor to block on the ground or to sacrifice if the opponent has a Tabernacle in play. Sideboard it out if you don't expect it to die in the match-up.
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary -- This card is a hell of a lightning rod, and for good reason. You pretty much don't lose any game where you untap with it. It's a reasonable card to naturally draw and cast or to Green Sun's Zenith for. I added it as a tester following a brainstorming session and it quickly proved its worth.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
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Granted, I have a personal biase against Explorer, but the no-nonsense combo of Scourge-Chain mana gets around some of cards that disrupt the traditional combo.
That said, my tests were pure goldfish, so this is more theory then practice.
No longer staff here.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Similarly, remember that Veteran Explorer is there solely to interact. It makes every GSZ an opportunity to set up a blocker that rockets you ahead to functional mana. It's not going to do much when your opponent isn't there.
On the topic of Visionary though, I'm unsure. Scourge goes infinite, sure, but you don't have a way to tutor it and it's not as good as your other critters in the absence of chain, and I include Visionary in that statement. As an example, vs Miracles you'd rather have visionary than scourge against terminus (doubly so if you have a gavony township running). Also, it's not super obvious, but the deck is a bit light in the 2-drop slot, and each 2-drop cut both weakens us to mana denial and lessens our explosiveness off of tight mana food chains (consider that a turn2 food chain cast off of DRS is only lethal if you have a 1-drop or a 2-drop to chain through to hit 3 mana to leverage your tutor dudes). I will mention however that even with all that said, I'm actually in the process of testing whether to cut the Visionary altogether (thus dropping the maindeck to 60).
Also this.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
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My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
Windswept Heath is indeed as cheap as it gets, but in case of the budget substitutions mentioned in the OP, the substitution would be a temporary replacement of Verdant Catacombs with Wooded Foothills.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
This might be a 4x Leyline of sanctity sideboard plan deck -- with some other hate cards to stomp the answers to leyline.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Leyline is too rough on the SB slots. Also, I've been generally unimpressed with it in other decks. Most decks that would be stopped by it have the tools to play through it postboard.
Of the unfair decks, the only ones that I haven't felt great against are BR Reanimator and Combo Elves. I'm writing off elves as a match-up that would require impractical commitment to solve, but it does get somewhat impeded by the Engineered Plague that I'm testing in the SB. BR reanimator I read as a soft match-up, but I've beaten it in the last two tournaments that I've faced it, and I accept that not every match-up can be positive. With the amount of spots allocated to it in my board already, I'm comfortable with it as it is.
On the topic of the manabase, you're right that it's making concessions, but those concessions are for resiliency, not budget. Your fallback plan is casting absurdly expensive spells in a field of Wasteland. Maindeck black mana just isn't something I'm interested in fixing for when I can instead be VERY reliable on green mana.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
I think it's a reasonable plan but not with 4 dorks--your only plans that lead to t2 teeg are 2x gsz or 1x deathrite+1xGSZ which I think means somewhere in the 15-20% vicinity. I almost think you'd want to be playing a worldly tutor or two if your plan is to toolbox your way out. Or some kinda low mana investment creature tutor (Eladamri's call? -- Problem with that is the awkward mana cost making it a t3 play).
Don't take this as negativity, just cautious excitement blended with a bit of skepticism I'd love to be able to make some kind of toolbox deck work in legacy without having to crowbar in discard, force, or a mana denial package. But it's just never seemed feasible.
Re: Leyline
I think it *should* pretty well vs. Storm because what you're trying to avoid with storm is not them targeting you with tendrils but them therapying or duressing your other stuff. But possibly not
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall