1. She may be protecting a creature we actually want to keep alive, like Dark Confidant, or one that's not especially relevant, like Thalia against our 3-4 land.
2. She might come under blocking pressure from a Devil or Marauder, or be killed by Lavaman.
3. The worst-case scenario involves Mother protecting a Stoneforge Mystic -> Batterskull chain. That's going to eat two burn spells to stop, barring Lavaman, and the investment could give the other deck time to hit 5 mana and start attacking with it manually.
The only difference in terms of burn required to kill an active Mom plus Mystic, and an inactive Mom plus Mystic, is instant speed on one of the spells (though they keep the Mom in the second case). That's not too harsh. Sulphuric Vortex handles the problem neatly as well, which is why I personally MD two copies with the third in the board.
Even the really bad situation can be answered, often without any investment of burn spells at all (via Lavaman or Vortex), and plenty of times Mom won't even have a lot that's worth covering. Why burn her automatically? I mean, Swords to Plowshares decks need to kill her instantly, but we are on a totally different plan.
@ mom When a single card potentially invalidates up to 12 of cards in the 75 (GG, Glm, and Searing blaze) and protects their game plan of Thalia taxing or Sfm chains it is mostly likely a card you'll want to remove from the board. I'd be happy to watch you play vs death n taxes were you do not remove mom..
...that's exactly the matchup I've played vs. Burn the most often. When Burn lost it was to one of three problems.
1. Batterskull or Jitte;
2. Choked off of mana;
3. Buried in card advantage and board position by a SoFnI (which I main in my DnT), leading to one or both of the former;
4. Outraced, which was weird but it did happen once.
Burn's main advantages have been these.
1. Keldon Marauders. This beast is unaffected by Thalia and can attack through her, something Spark Elemental and Goblin Guide cannot boast. I run the full set of this monster, though he's out of fashion I find him useful in a lot of situations. Kills a Mirran Crusader too.
2. Sulfuric Vortex can be a bit tricky to resolve, taxes can threaten to make a 3 CMC non-creature mana cost impossible; but when it does land on the field, the question of inevitability changes drastically. Many DnT decks can only deal with this with a Mangara of Corondor, though Leonin Relic-Warder and Oblivion Ring pop up here and there. I wouldn't normally advocate throwing a precious burn spell at Thalia, but if doing so will let me resolve the Vortex, it's totally worth it.
3. Just running 21 land is a big help. I used to advocate for dropping the curve and cutting land to play more threats, but I'm not into that any more. I prefer somewhat higher-quality threats (did I mention the Vortex yet?) and playing the land required to deploy them consistently, even if I have to fight through the odd tax effect.
I might be a bit weaker to discard by doing things like that, but when the discard in question is Thoughtseize, it's preceded by a fetchland, and followed by Dark Confidant... I worry about it less.
Getting back to the list of DnT advantages, Mother of Runes does not always present a problem by herself. She can only block in desperate circumstances, that is, if there's nothing else for her to protect, since she dies to any of our creatures while only threatening Lavamancer (were we sending him into the Red Zone). Her threat level tends to be exaggerated, particularly by those who have been on the receiving end of Mom -> Stoneforge Mystic -> Batterskull, facing a 4/4 pro-red vigilant lifelinker blocking as early as turn 3. Some games do end that way. Does it follow that it's always right to immediately burn Mother of Runes?
I would argue that it's not, on the grounds that, in testing, after 1 burn spell is chucked at Mother of Runes, an answer is still needed for Stoneforge Mystic. GLM won't reliably get this job done, as he will be StP'ed or Revoker'ed if the DnT pilot is holding those cards (both playsets in the deck). The only reliable way to do it, then, is to burn the Mystic before the other player untaps, and that's 2 burn spells down with 0 points to the opposing dome.
Since those spells can only be recovered via the draw phase, unless we had a pretty massive surplus of burn from the outset, it's going to take 2 or 3 turns to get that much gas back. That, in turn, increases the danger of being outraced by Mirran Crusader, slowed further by Port and Thalia, another Mystic hitting the board, and all the while DnT is making land drops. When the 5th one hits, Batterskull comes down: and the decision to spend those burn spells on creatures might be the very one that causes the game loss.
...that's exactly the matchup I've played vs. Burn the most often. When Burn lost it was to one of three problems.
1. Batterskull or Jitte;
2. Choked off of mana;
3. Buried in card advantage and board position by a SoFnI (which I main in my DnT), leading to one or both of the former;
4. Outraced, which was weird but it did happen once.
Burn's main advantages have been these.
1. Keldon Marauders. This beast is unaffected by Thalia and can attack through her, something Spark Elemental and Goblin Guide cannot boast. I run the full set of this monster, though he's out of fashion I find him useful in a lot of situations. Kills a Mirran Crusader too.
2. Sulfuric Vortex can be a bit tricky to resolve, taxes can threaten to make a 3 CMC non-creature mana cost impossible; but when it does land on the field, the question of inevitability changes drastically. Many DnT decks can only deal with this with a Mangara of Corondor, though Leonin Relic-Warder and Oblivion Ring pop up here and there. I wouldn't normally advocate throwing a precious burn spell at Thalia, but if doing so will let me resolve the Vortex, it's totally worth it.
3. Just running 21 land is a big help. I used to advocate for dropping the curve and cutting land to play more threats, but I'm not into that any more. I prefer somewhat higher-quality threats (did I mention the Vortex yet?) and playing the land required to deploy them consistently, even if I have to fight through the odd tax effect.
I might be a bit weaker to discard by doing things like that, but when the discard in question is Thoughtseize, it's preceded by a fetchland, and followed by Dark Confidant... I worry about it less.
Getting back to the list of DnT advantages, Mother of Runes does not always present a problem by herself. She can only block in desperate circumstances, that is, if there's nothing else for her to protect, since she dies to any of our creatures while only threatening Lavamancer (were we sending him into the Red Zone). Her threat level tends to be exaggerated, particularly by those who have been on the receiving end of Mom -> Stoneforge Mystic -> Batterskull, facing a 4/4 pro-red vigilant lifelinker blocking as early as turn 3. Some games do end that way. Does it follow that it's always right to immediately burn Mother of Runes?
I would argue that it's not, on the grounds that, in testing, after 1 burn spell is chucked at Mother of Runes, an answer is still needed for Stoneforge Mystic. GLM won't reliably get this job done, as he will be StP'ed or Revoker'ed if the DnT pilot is holding those cards (both playsets in the deck). The only reliable way to do it, then, is to burn the Mystic before the other player untaps, and that's 2 burn spells down with 0 points to the opposing dome.
Since those spells can only be recovered via the draw phase, unless we had a pretty massive surplus of burn from the outset, it's going to take 2 or 3 turns to get that much gas back. That, in turn, increases the danger of being outraced by Mirran Crusader, slowed further by Port and Thalia, another Mystic hitting the board, and all the while DnT is making land drops. When the 5th one hits, Batterskull comes down: and the decision to spend those burn spells on creatures might be the very one that causes the game loss.
I think your argument is odd. The list of 4 problems with Dnt can all be stopped with some form of creature removal or another, from killing sfm before she cheats in bskull or preventing thalias tax or keeping a sword off a weenie. Even the mentioned maruarders isn't a card
I would boast in argument about mother of runes. He will merely get chumped by a pro red creature before he fades away. It looks like we are going to have agree to disagree on this one.
Protecting a creature from red, via Mother of Runes, to ward of a Keldon Marauder attack is an opening with which to kill Mother of Runes, an opportunity to do so after the opponent has untapped with her... and we've got valuable information as to whether a Stoneforge Mystic is really going to happen.
All I'm saying is that we can't simply play against Death and Taxes with the plan to burn all their creatures. That's only going to get us to turn 5 with an empty hand, opponent at 10+ life, and a Batterskull on the table. DnT might even have a creature left over. Those decks run a lot of creatures, and they'd love to trade them 1-for-1 for our precious grip of burn. In my opinion, the wisest course is to be really stingy with the burn spells and only aim them away from the face in the direst of circumstances. A lone Mother of Runes on turn 1 is below the threshold where, in my own judgment, burning the creature is necessary.
Protecting a creature from red, via Mother of Runes, to ward of a Keldon Marauder attack is an opening with which to kill Mother of Runes, an opportunity to do so after the opponent has untapped with her... and we've got valuable information as to whether a Stoneforge Mystic...
Aren't we debating on whether or not we should or should not kill in the first place?
I can agree that the game and situation and hand all factor into the choice on whether to kill Mom. I can not say ALWAYS kill mom asap but when you consider those factors it most likely is the correct answer. And on the flip side there are plenty of scenarios when killing mom is not the most logical of plays.
The question is whether we should apply a burn spell to Mother of Runes the moment she appears universally; and if not, under what circumstances it is right to kill her.
I mentioned the Keldon Marauders situation because it offers a way to make an active Mother of Runes (which becomes a threat) vulnerable to a single removal spell again (should it be used to block), instead of a hog requiring two spells to kill.
Some limit play like this, maybe.
1. Guide, 2 damage. Mother of Runes, go.
2. Guide, 2 damage, (4), Marauders (5). Stoneforge -> Batterskull, go.
3. Swing with Guide and Marauders.
We have 2-3 untapped Mountains and 4-5 cards. If Marauders gets in for 3, we'll have gotten 11 points in from just these two cards, well in range of a burn out before Batterskull comes down. Mom had better chump; but when she taps to use her ability, we burn the Mystic. in that case, once Marauders fades, we have done 8 points from three cards: not as impressive, but we won't have to race a cheated in Batterskull this time. We also have the option of racing, if we had saved that card and pointed it at the face instead of Mystic: as would be wise had we a Vortex to trump the equipment.
I'm intrigued by the newly spoiled Mindsparker card in M14.
1RR
3/2
First Strike
Whenever an opponent casts a white or blue instant or sorcery, *** deals 2 damage to that player.
This card doesn't strike me as insanely good or an auto include, but I could envision it seeing some fringe play in the right metagames. Sort of like a hate bear weaker version of Sulfuric Vortex that can attack and block. Although, at 3 cmc it might not be powerful enough to justify. Still, it's a promising sign that R&D hasn't forgotten mono red players.
The question is whether we should apply a burn spell to Mother of Runes the moment she appears universally; and if not, under what circumstances it is right to kill her.
I mentioned the Keldon Marauders situation because it offers a way to make an active Mother of Runes (which becomes a threat) vulnerable to a single removal spell again (should it be used to block), instead of a hog requiring two spells to kill.
Some limit play like this, maybe.
1. Guide, 2 damage. Mother of Runes, go.
2. Guide, 2 damage, (4), Marauders (5). Stoneforge -> Batterskull, go.
3. Swing with Guide and Marauders.
We have 2-3 untapped Mountains and 4-5 cards. If Marauders gets in for 3, we'll have gotten 11 points in from just these two cards, well in range of a burn out before Batterskull comes down. Mom had better chump; but when she taps to use her ability, we burn the Mystic. in that case, once Marauders fades, we have done 8 points from three cards: not as impressive, but we won't have to race a cheated in Batterskull this time. We also have the option of racing, if we had saved that card and pointed it at the face instead of Mystic: as would be wise had we a Vortex to trump the equipment.
See here's the thing: If I was the DnT player, I would only go with an SFM on turn 2 facing that board if it was the only play available to me. I will always play Thalia first in order to invalidate your board, or even spend the Swords to Plowshares to kill the Guide outright.
Having taken 5 damage already, with an additional 5 damage on the board incoming, I would not play SFM because I know full well how consistent Burn can deal damage to the face. I would rather play any other chump blocker than play SFM on turn 2. That's because SFM is my Trump Card against Burn, which I will need to protect at all cost; and if I did play SFM on turn 2, there was no way I could protect both SFM and myself from incoming damage.
Hence, the scenario you described, while possible, is not probable - particularly with a good opponent. Here is what would have likely happened:
1. Guide, 2 damage. Mother of Runes, go.
2. Guide, 2 damage, (4), Marauders (5). Thalia, go.
3. You can't hope to attack without burning out the opposing board, which you cannot possibly do without a card disadvantage due to the active Mommy on board, and a Tempo disadvantage because of the Thalia on the board... If you attack with just the Marauders, it's very possible that your opponent would just take the damage, or Chump with Thalia. NOW he plays SFM -> Batterskull. What now?
Now what if you just killed Mommy outright? Imagine how different the current game state would have been...
I thought I would post my current list here (still have to get foothills, though).
So far, it's been a blast to play. I'm still loving the consistency of 20 3-damage spells more than ever.
On being vulnerable to Wasteland, I can't say it's been too much of an issue. The last thing I search for with a fetch land is Badlands, so I often don't even have a non-basic in play until turn 3 (Bump in the Night is obviously the bolt with the lowest priority if I think I might be wastelanded). They basically only get to Wasteland when the game is over or when it doesn't matter anymore.
I'm thinking of replacing the Searing Blaze and something else to get Vexing Devil, but I'm not sure. I'm thinking it might help me fight Leyline of Sanctity, but I haven't seen that played in a while...
I think when M14 comes out I will replace the Ball Lightning's with Young Pyromancer. I only own two Fetchlands, are they worth putting in? I cant imagine it would actually accomplish anything. I also feel I may need one more land.
Thoughts?
This just in: Young Pyromancer is amazing.
I'm not sure if you've noticed but the vast majority of our cardbase is instants and sorceries so even if it only gives us 1 or 2 elementals that's some extreme card advantage. It's served me in every way, from sneaking in damage to blocking Tarmagoyf. In fact, he's the most useful in the Merfolk matchup, where you can buy yourself time using the elementals as blockers and burning them out.
I'm considering cutting the flame rifts for Vexing Devils, because as it stands Young Pyromancer is eating a ton of removal. My problem with Vexing Devil was always (a) that it's a ****ty topdeck and (b) if they let it resolve it just means it's about to eat removal. But if your pyromancers are eating all the removal, then your devils aren't, and they're just dealing damage... Basically, more threats = more damage. Shouldn't take a genius to figure that out though, haha.
I think the sideboard might need some work. I usually side in Chaos Warp against any white deck to deal with leylines, but the board still feels a bit lacking.
I have to disagree on theory about Young Pyromancer, but I haven't done the testing to really verify that. It just strikes me as a particularly slow option.
The biggest thing holding Yound Pyromancer back imo is that he's a very bad topdeck. Even if you top deck a Grim Lavamancer, you know that he can do 2 damage next turn. Seems like I would rather throw Marauders back in than Pyro.
I'm not at all sold on YP. Best case scenario (generally speaking) you can deal 3 damage on turn 4 for :1mana::symr:. Compare that to Goblin Guide who frequently gets in for 4 damage by turn 2 for :symr:, or Delver of Secrets who gets in for 6 by turn 3. Another comparison would be Keldon Marauders, who deals 2 guaranteed damage (and sometimes 5) for the same :1mana::symr:
Though I will say I like the idea of possibly using Vexing Devil and Young Pyromancer (or even Keldon Marauders) in the same deck, perhaps in a 16 creature suite.
I have to disagree on theory about Young Pyromancer, but I haven't done the testing to really verify that. It just strikes me as a particularly slow option.
I look forward to verifying this myself. Young Pyromancer is an interesting card and if she were to call any deck home it would be in such a deck that runs such high number of instants and sorceries, like burn does. Recently, I was recalling the idea of adding Gitaxian Probe as GLM food, but would this more advantageous with the inclusion of this new red two drop..? I shall soon find out!
Edit: Apparently, Rift Bolt was reprinted in MM and with much better art (imo.) Why wasn't I told?!
I look forward to verifying this myself. Young Pyromancer is an interesting card and if she were to call any deck home it would be in such a deck that runs such high number of instants and sorceries, like burn does. Recently, I was recalling the idea of adding Gitaxian Probe as GLM food, but would this more advantageous with the inclusion of this new red two drop..? I shall soon find out!
Edit: Apparently, Rift Bolt was reprinted in MM and with much better art (imo.) Why wasn't I told?!
The art isn't exactly new. There was an FNM foil promo that also had that alternate art.
Phyrexian mana would seem good with the Pyromancer.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Hence, the scenario you described, while possible, is not probable - particularly with a good opponent. Here is what would have likely happened:
1. Guide, 2 damage. Mother of Runes, go.
2. Guide, 2 damage, (4), Marauders (5). Thalia, go.
3. You can't hope to attack without burning out the opposing board, which you cannot possibly do without a card disadvantage due to the active Mommy on board, and a Tempo disadvantage because of the Thalia on the board... If you attack with just the Marauders, it's very possible that your opponent would just take the damage, or Chump with Thalia. NOW he plays SFM -> Batterskull. What now?
Now what if you just killed Mommy outright? Imagine how different the current game state would have been...
Exactly, if I attack with just the Marauders, my opponent wouldn't risk the Mother of Runes (planning to protect Mystic with it next turn) and either just takes the damage or chumps with Thalia.
Taking the damage is obviously bad. DnT would be going to 12 life, 11 on the next upkeep. Burn went first, drew 2 cards for turns 2 and 3, and presumably played 3 land. One card was Goblin Guide, and another was Keldon Marauders, so there are 4 cards left in hand with which to deal that damage. 3 mana are untapped this turn, enough to pay the tax on a bolt and suspend a Rift Bolt, or cast one of the bigger spells like Price of Progress / Flame Rift.
That will mean 4-6 damage out of the two cards, DnT goes and plays the Mystic -> Batterskull line, we untap and draw another card. It's turn 4. DnT has not gained life, and will not gain life until an attack is made. Do we have the cards and the mana to close out the game? We probably do: although we had to play through a Thalia and won't get to use the Red Zone this turn (due to the Batterskull), Goblin Guide dealt 4 and Marauders dealt 5, nearly half our opponent's life by themselves.
Chump blocking is better, but still probably losing. The difference is that this line requires the Burn player to have more Bolts and/or efficient spells to clear out DnT's life total before Batterskull comes knocking, whereas Thalia squeezes on mana.
...so to the question of "What NOW?" I'd reply that DnT has reached turn 4 against a burn deck that hasn't wasted a single spell on a creature, i.e. has goldfished to a win.
Look, I'm not saying Mother of Runes lines aren't tricky. They are. I spend most of my time with Burn testing them out, and I don't pretend to know all the subtleties. One fact which seems pretty obvious, though, is that burning Mother of Runes on sight is not always correct. Cooking her is a commitment of resources that could easily turn into a misallocation. Not cooking her is an equally large commitment.
And herein lies the rub... What position would you rather be facing? Being forced to go into top deck mode because you spent a spell to burn Mommy, or potentially facing a blowout by a live Mommy?
Maybe it boils down to personal preference, but for me, for a linear deck like Burn, I would take the risk of being forced into Top deck mode... The way the deck was constructed, it is arguably the best at top-decking. If you're unlucky and keep drawing blanks, then that's life. But personally, I would rather lose that way than facing an unanswered Mommy + SfM into Batterskull, because I would feel better knowing I actually answered my opponent's gameplan instead of just blindly pointing each Burn spell to the face.
Incidentally, I would actually argue that if you get faced with this particular decision pretty often in your local meta, I would seriously consider adding Searing Blaze in the main deck, as it lets you have your cake, and eat it too...
Yeah, Searing Blaze is a nice card, though I prefer it in the board.
Getting back to Mother of Runes though, not that we'd gotten away from it, yes it's unfortunate to lose a game to Mom -> Stoneforge Mystic -> Batterskull. The proposed answer to that deck's game plan, even if it is Death and Taxes with 4 Stoneforge Mystic and 0 life loss from fetchlands, involves the conundrum of the opposing player actually having the Mystic in hand.
Why burn a Mother of Runes when in all likelihood DnT is holding Flickerwisp, Rishadan Port, Phyrexian Revoker, Swords to Plowshares, Plains, Wasteland, Mangara of Corondor? That could easily cost the game, and the probability of them not having Mystic is greater than that of them holding it (or holding two).
The decision to kill mom or not is completely dependant on so many factors in a game so to create and arbituary rule that it is the best choice to kill mom is silly. A good call one game may be terrible in the next, obviously. However, I am still of the opinion that removing the mother is the safer of two pathes, in most cases. This is due to the fact, as insaney said, that Burn has such amazing consistency and two, doesn't commit us to the gameplan of ignoring their board. Also, another possibility of opposing feelings of this issue could be due to the fact that you main mauraders, while I play Searing blaze in that spot.Again, I'd love to watch you vs dnt and possibly convert me to your playstyle.
Posted from my phone..
I know the primer says its just a bad idea, but the explanation did not really say why. Free cantrips in burn? Can someone explain why its bad?
The only downside I see is less information when youre deciding to mulligan. Instead of land land bolt rift bolt blast GLM vortex, you see land land bolt rift bolt blast ? ?.
The primer's explanation seems to assume you cut either lands or spells somehow changing your threat density, when I thought the merit of free cantrips was a smaller deck. You cut the worst burn spells (looking at flame rift, and possibly moving vortex to the side), remove a commensurate amount of land, and now you have the same deck just all the burn is 1 card 1 mana for 3-4 dmg. I was looking at this list http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=53619 with 4 fewer lands, vortex in side in replacement of something (probly trade em with GLM when theyre useful) and nix the flame rifts.
I know the primer says its just a bad idea, but the explanation did not really say why. Free cantrips in burn? Can someone explain why its bad?
The only downside I see is less information when youre deciding to mulligan. Instead of land land bolt rift bolt blast GLM vortex, you see land land bolt rift bolt blast ? ?.
The primer's explanation seems to assume you cut either lands or spells somehow changing your threat density, when I thought the merit of free cantrips was a smaller deck. You cut the worst burn spells (looking at flame rift, and possibly moving vortex to the side), remove a commensurate amount of land, and now you have the same deck just all the burn is 1 card 1 mana for 3-4 dmg. I was looking at this list http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=53619 with 4 fewer lands, vortex in side in replacement of something (probly trade em with GLM when theyre useful) and nix the flame rifts.
Ok just to give a more concrete example.
Some consider Flame Rift a bad burn spell. I will not argue whether it is or not. What I would argue rather is whether this is worse than, say, Gitaxian Probe.
Supporters of Gitaxian Probe would always argue "perfect information" as a reason why it is better than a bad burn spell. But to be perfectly honest, the "perfect information" is only really relevant in a few corner cases.
Aside from that, there is no guarantee of what you will be drawing into. Half of the time, you'd be drawing into a card that you don't really need - which kind of defeats the purpose of running cantrips to "improve" top decking in the first place.
Now imagine instead of having Gitaxian Probe in your hand, you have Flame Rift instead. The only case when this is a bad thing is if your opponent is also playing an aggressively fast deck like Tribal Aggro or Combo. With the current meta being full of fair decks which don't try to kill you by the 3rd to 4th Turn, Flame Rift is pretty decent. You don't know if they have counterspells in hand? Big deal, you top deck better than they do and they'll run out of counters anyway.
So the whole "perfect information" argument is pretty moot to be perfectly honest... Having it is pretty good, don't get me wrong, but not having it is no big deal and won't hurt the deck at all. We are not Storm where every single card in our hand is an integral part of an engine. Burn is only a "combo" deck in the sense that it is a very non-interactive deck. And personally, I would rather make sure that I have a Burn spell ("good" or "bad") instead of hope for drawing one with a Cantrip.
1. She may be protecting a creature we actually want to keep alive, like Dark Confidant, or one that's not especially relevant, like Thalia against our 3-4 land.
2. She might come under blocking pressure from a Devil or Marauder, or be killed by Lavaman.
3. The worst-case scenario involves Mother protecting a Stoneforge Mystic -> Batterskull chain. That's going to eat two burn spells to stop, barring Lavaman, and the investment could give the other deck time to hit 5 mana and start attacking with it manually.
The only difference in terms of burn required to kill an active Mom plus Mystic, and an inactive Mom plus Mystic, is instant speed on one of the spells (though they keep the Mom in the second case). That's not too harsh. Sulphuric Vortex handles the problem neatly as well, which is why I personally MD two copies with the third in the board.
Even the really bad situation can be answered, often without any investment of burn spells at all (via Lavaman or Vortex), and plenty of times Mom won't even have a lot that's worth covering. Why burn her automatically? I mean, Swords to Plowshares decks need to kill her instantly, but we are on a totally different plan.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
1. Batterskull or Jitte;
2. Choked off of mana;
3. Buried in card advantage and board position by a SoFnI (which I main in my DnT), leading to one or both of the former;
4. Outraced, which was weird but it did happen once.
Burn's main advantages have been these.
1. Keldon Marauders. This beast is unaffected by Thalia and can attack through her, something Spark Elemental and Goblin Guide cannot boast. I run the full set of this monster, though he's out of fashion I find him useful in a lot of situations. Kills a Mirran Crusader too.
2. Sulfuric Vortex can be a bit tricky to resolve, taxes can threaten to make a 3 CMC non-creature mana cost impossible; but when it does land on the field, the question of inevitability changes drastically. Many DnT decks can only deal with this with a Mangara of Corondor, though Leonin Relic-Warder and Oblivion Ring pop up here and there. I wouldn't normally advocate throwing a precious burn spell at Thalia, but if doing so will let me resolve the Vortex, it's totally worth it.
3. Just running 21 land is a big help. I used to advocate for dropping the curve and cutting land to play more threats, but I'm not into that any more. I prefer somewhat higher-quality threats (did I mention the Vortex yet?) and playing the land required to deploy them consistently, even if I have to fight through the odd tax effect.
I might be a bit weaker to discard by doing things like that, but when the discard in question is Thoughtseize, it's preceded by a fetchland, and followed by Dark Confidant... I worry about it less.
Getting back to the list of DnT advantages, Mother of Runes does not always present a problem by herself. She can only block in desperate circumstances, that is, if there's nothing else for her to protect, since she dies to any of our creatures while only threatening Lavamancer (were we sending him into the Red Zone). Her threat level tends to be exaggerated, particularly by those who have been on the receiving end of Mom -> Stoneforge Mystic -> Batterskull, facing a 4/4 pro-red vigilant lifelinker blocking as early as turn 3. Some games do end that way. Does it follow that it's always right to immediately burn Mother of Runes?
I would argue that it's not, on the grounds that, in testing, after 1 burn spell is chucked at Mother of Runes, an answer is still needed for Stoneforge Mystic. GLM won't reliably get this job done, as he will be StP'ed or Revoker'ed if the DnT pilot is holding those cards (both playsets in the deck). The only reliable way to do it, then, is to burn the Mystic before the other player untaps, and that's 2 burn spells down with 0 points to the opposing dome.
Since those spells can only be recovered via the draw phase, unless we had a pretty massive surplus of burn from the outset, it's going to take 2 or 3 turns to get that much gas back. That, in turn, increases the danger of being outraced by Mirran Crusader, slowed further by Port and Thalia, another Mystic hitting the board, and all the while DnT is making land drops. When the 5th one hits, Batterskull comes down: and the decision to spend those burn spells on creatures might be the very one that causes the game loss.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
I think your argument is odd. The list of 4 problems with Dnt can all be stopped with some form of creature removal or another, from killing sfm before she cheats in bskull or preventing thalias tax or keeping a sword off a weenie. Even the mentioned maruarders isn't a card
I would boast in argument about mother of runes. He will merely get chumped by a pro red creature before he fades away. It looks like we are going to have agree to disagree on this one.
All I'm saying is that we can't simply play against Death and Taxes with the plan to burn all their creatures. That's only going to get us to turn 5 with an empty hand, opponent at 10+ life, and a Batterskull on the table. DnT might even have a creature left over. Those decks run a lot of creatures, and they'd love to trade them 1-for-1 for our precious grip of burn. In my opinion, the wisest course is to be really stingy with the burn spells and only aim them away from the face in the direst of circumstances. A lone Mother of Runes on turn 1 is below the threshold where, in my own judgment, burning the creature is necessary.
Burn vs. DnT has won plenty of games in my testing where Burn did nothing except resolve 6 spells in a timely fashion. On the DnT side, the board often looked like Mother of Runes, Phyrexian Revoker, Flickerwisp, Aether Vial, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, and a bunch of land.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Aren't we debating on whether or not we should or should not kill in the first place?
I can agree that the game and situation and hand all factor into the choice on whether to kill Mom. I can not say ALWAYS kill mom asap but when you consider those factors it most likely is the correct answer. And on the flip side there are plenty of scenarios when killing mom is not the most logical of plays.
I mentioned the Keldon Marauders situation because it offers a way to make an active Mother of Runes (which becomes a threat) vulnerable to a single removal spell again (should it be used to block), instead of a hog requiring two spells to kill.
Some limit play like this, maybe.
1. Guide, 2 damage. Mother of Runes, go.
2. Guide, 2 damage, (4), Marauders (5). Stoneforge -> Batterskull, go.
3. Swing with Guide and Marauders.
We have 2-3 untapped Mountains and 4-5 cards. If Marauders gets in for 3, we'll have gotten 11 points in from just these two cards, well in range of a burn out before Batterskull comes down. Mom had better chump; but when she taps to use her ability, we burn the Mystic. in that case, once Marauders fades, we have done 8 points from three cards: not as impressive, but we won't have to race a cheated in Batterskull this time. We also have the option of racing, if we had saved that card and pointed it at the face instead of Mystic: as would be wise had we a Vortex to trump the equipment.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
3/2
First Strike
Whenever an opponent casts a white or blue instant or sorcery, *** deals 2 damage to that player.
This card doesn't strike me as insanely good or an auto include, but I could envision it seeing some fringe play in the right metagames. Sort of like a hate bear weaker version of Sulfuric Vortex that can attack and block. Although, at 3 cmc it might not be powerful enough to justify. Still, it's a promising sign that R&D hasn't forgotten mono red players.
formely known as Wolf_Cub82
my altered cards on Facebook my altered cards on Tumblr
BurnR(Legacy)
ReanimatorUB(Legacy)
Ghave, Guru of SporesWGB(Commander)
HumansRW(Standard)
See here's the thing: If I was the DnT player, I would only go with an SFM on turn 2 facing that board if it was the only play available to me. I will always play Thalia first in order to invalidate your board, or even spend the Swords to Plowshares to kill the Guide outright.
Having taken 5 damage already, with an additional 5 damage on the board incoming, I would not play SFM because I know full well how consistent Burn can deal damage to the face. I would rather play any other chump blocker than play SFM on turn 2. That's because SFM is my Trump Card against Burn, which I will need to protect at all cost; and if I did play SFM on turn 2, there was no way I could protect both SFM and myself from incoming damage.
Hence, the scenario you described, while possible, is not probable - particularly with a good opponent. Here is what would have likely happened:
1. Guide, 2 damage. Mother of Runes, go.
2. Guide, 2 damage, (4), Marauders (5). Thalia, go.
3. You can't hope to attack without burning out the opposing board, which you cannot possibly do without a card disadvantage due to the active Mommy on board, and a Tempo disadvantage because of the Thalia on the board... If you attack with just the Marauders, it's very possible that your opponent would just take the damage, or Chump with Thalia. NOW he plays SFM -> Batterskull. What now?
Now what if you just killed Mommy outright? Imagine how different the current game state would have been...
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Bump in the Night
two cc Burn (10)
4 Flame Rift
3 Price of Progress
3 Searing Blaze
4 Goblin Guide
Finishers (6)
4 Fireblast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
Lands (20)
8 Mountain
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Rakdos Charm
4 Red Elemental Blast
I thought I would post my current list here (still have to get foothills, though).
So far, it's been a blast to play. I'm still loving the consistency of 20 3-damage spells more than ever.
On being vulnerable to Wasteland, I can't say it's been too much of an issue. The last thing I search for with a fetch land is Badlands, so I often don't even have a non-basic in play until turn 3 (Bump in the Night is obviously the bolt with the lowest priority if I think I might be wastelanded). They basically only get to Wasteland when the game is over or when it doesn't matter anymore.
Rakdos Charm is just awesome.
I'm thinking of replacing the Searing Blaze and something else to get Vexing Devil, but I'm not sure. I'm thinking it might help me fight Leyline of Sanctity, but I haven't seen that played in a while...
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I think when M14 comes out I will replace the Ball Lightning's with Young Pyromancer. I only own two Fetchlands, are they worth putting in? I cant imagine it would actually accomplish anything. I also feel I may need one more land.
Thoughts?
I'm not sure if you've noticed but the vast majority of our cardbase is instants and sorceries so even if it only gives us 1 or 2 elementals that's some extreme card advantage. It's served me in every way, from sneaking in damage to blocking Tarmagoyf. In fact, he's the most useful in the Merfolk matchup, where you can buy yourself time using the elementals as blockers and burning them out.
Here's the list I've been running:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Young Pyromancer
Land
18 Mountain
1 Barbarian Ring
Spells
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Confusion in the Ranks
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Chaos Warp
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Surgical Extraction
I'm considering cutting the flame rifts for Vexing Devils, because as it stands Young Pyromancer is eating a ton of removal. My problem with Vexing Devil was always (a) that it's a ****ty topdeck and (b) if they let it resolve it just means it's about to eat removal. But if your pyromancers are eating all the removal, then your devils aren't, and they're just dealing damage... Basically, more threats = more damage. Shouldn't take a genius to figure that out though, haha.
I think the sideboard might need some work. I usually side in Chaos Warp against any white deck to deal with leylines, but the board still feels a bit lacking.
Is the Confusion in the Ranks in your sideboard some sort of Show and Tell tech?
formely known as Wolf_Cub82
my altered cards on Facebook my altered cards on Tumblr
BurnR(Legacy)
ReanimatorUB(Legacy)
Ghave, Guru of SporesWGB(Commander)
HumansRW(Standard)
Though I will say I like the idea of possibly using Vexing Devil and Young Pyromancer (or even Keldon Marauders) in the same deck, perhaps in a 16 creature suite.
Legacy Burn
NO Combo Elves
Reanimator
Trades
Burn Primer
:symg:Free Gaea's Cradle:symg:
I look forward to verifying this myself. Young Pyromancer is an interesting card and if she were to call any deck home it would be in such a deck that runs such high number of instants and sorceries, like burn does. Recently, I was recalling the idea of adding Gitaxian Probe as GLM food, but would this more advantageous with the inclusion of this new red two drop..? I shall soon find out!
Edit: Apparently, Rift Bolt was reprinted in MM and with much better art (imo.) Why wasn't I told?!
The art isn't exactly new. There was an FNM foil promo that also had that alternate art.
Phyrexian mana would seem good with the Pyromancer.
formely known as Wolf_Cub82
my altered cards on Facebook my altered cards on Tumblr
BurnR(Legacy)
ReanimatorUB(Legacy)
Ghave, Guru of SporesWGB(Commander)
HumansRW(Standard)
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Exactly, if I attack with just the Marauders, my opponent wouldn't risk the Mother of Runes (planning to protect Mystic with it next turn) and either just takes the damage or chumps with Thalia.
Taking the damage is obviously bad. DnT would be going to 12 life, 11 on the next upkeep. Burn went first, drew 2 cards for turns 2 and 3, and presumably played 3 land. One card was Goblin Guide, and another was Keldon Marauders, so there are 4 cards left in hand with which to deal that damage. 3 mana are untapped this turn, enough to pay the tax on a bolt and suspend a Rift Bolt, or cast one of the bigger spells like Price of Progress / Flame Rift.
That will mean 4-6 damage out of the two cards, DnT goes and plays the Mystic -> Batterskull line, we untap and draw another card. It's turn 4. DnT has not gained life, and will not gain life until an attack is made. Do we have the cards and the mana to close out the game? We probably do: although we had to play through a Thalia and won't get to use the Red Zone this turn (due to the Batterskull), Goblin Guide dealt 4 and Marauders dealt 5, nearly half our opponent's life by themselves.
Chump blocking is better, but still probably losing. The difference is that this line requires the Burn player to have more Bolts and/or efficient spells to clear out DnT's life total before Batterskull comes knocking, whereas Thalia squeezes on mana.
...so to the question of "What NOW?" I'd reply that DnT has reached turn 4 against a burn deck that hasn't wasted a single spell on a creature, i.e. has goldfished to a win.
Look, I'm not saying Mother of Runes lines aren't tricky. They are. I spend most of my time with Burn testing them out, and I don't pretend to know all the subtleties. One fact which seems pretty obvious, though, is that burning Mother of Runes on sight is not always correct. Cooking her is a commitment of resources that could easily turn into a misallocation. Not cooking her is an equally large commitment.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
And herein lies the rub... What position would you rather be facing? Being forced to go into top deck mode because you spent a spell to burn Mommy, or potentially facing a blowout by a live Mommy?
Maybe it boils down to personal preference, but for me, for a linear deck like Burn, I would take the risk of being forced into Top deck mode... The way the deck was constructed, it is arguably the best at top-decking. If you're unlucky and keep drawing blanks, then that's life. But personally, I would rather lose that way than facing an unanswered Mommy + SfM into Batterskull, because I would feel better knowing I actually answered my opponent's gameplan instead of just blindly pointing each Burn spell to the face.
Incidentally, I would actually argue that if you get faced with this particular decision pretty often in your local meta, I would seriously consider adding Searing Blaze in the main deck, as it lets you have your cake, and eat it too...
Getting back to Mother of Runes though, not that we'd gotten away from it, yes it's unfortunate to lose a game to Mom -> Stoneforge Mystic -> Batterskull. The proposed answer to that deck's game plan, even if it is Death and Taxes with 4 Stoneforge Mystic and 0 life loss from fetchlands, involves the conundrum of the opposing player actually having the Mystic in hand.
Why burn a Mother of Runes when in all likelihood DnT is holding Flickerwisp, Rishadan Port, Phyrexian Revoker, Swords to Plowshares, Plains, Wasteland, Mangara of Corondor? That could easily cost the game, and the probability of them not having Mystic is greater than that of them holding it (or holding two).
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Legacy Burn
NO Combo Elves
Reanimator
Trades
Burn Primer
:symg:Free Gaea's Cradle:symg:
Posted from my phone..
The only downside I see is less information when youre deciding to mulligan. Instead of land land bolt rift bolt blast GLM vortex, you see land land bolt rift bolt blast ? ?.
The primer's explanation seems to assume you cut either lands or spells somehow changing your threat density, when I thought the merit of free cantrips was a smaller deck. You cut the worst burn spells (looking at flame rift, and possibly moving vortex to the side), remove a commensurate amount of land, and now you have the same deck just all the burn is 1 card 1 mana for 3-4 dmg. I was looking at this list http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=53619 with 4 fewer lands, vortex in side in replacement of something (probly trade em with GLM when theyre useful) and nix the flame rifts.
Ok just to give a more concrete example.
Some consider Flame Rift a bad burn spell. I will not argue whether it is or not. What I would argue rather is whether this is worse than, say, Gitaxian Probe.
Supporters of Gitaxian Probe would always argue "perfect information" as a reason why it is better than a bad burn spell. But to be perfectly honest, the "perfect information" is only really relevant in a few corner cases.
Aside from that, there is no guarantee of what you will be drawing into. Half of the time, you'd be drawing into a card that you don't really need - which kind of defeats the purpose of running cantrips to "improve" top decking in the first place.
Now imagine instead of having Gitaxian Probe in your hand, you have Flame Rift instead. The only case when this is a bad thing is if your opponent is also playing an aggressively fast deck like Tribal Aggro or Combo. With the current meta being full of fair decks which don't try to kill you by the 3rd to 4th Turn, Flame Rift is pretty decent. You don't know if they have counterspells in hand? Big deal, you top deck better than they do and they'll run out of counters anyway.
So the whole "perfect information" argument is pretty moot to be perfectly honest... Having it is pretty good, don't get me wrong, but not having it is no big deal and won't hurt the deck at all. We are not Storm where every single card in our hand is an integral part of an engine. Burn is only a "combo" deck in the sense that it is a very non-interactive deck. And personally, I would rather make sure that I have a Burn spell ("good" or "bad") instead of hope for drawing one with a Cantrip.