running spring tide this weekend. i expect the meta to be NO RUG, hive mind, zoo, and stoneblade. i put in 2 gitaxian probes in place of 1 retraced image and 1 preordain as knowing what counters your opponent has can be pretty big in protecting your combo.
running spring tide this weekend. i expect the meta to be NO RUG, hive mind, zoo, and stoneblade. i put in 2 gitaxian probes in place of 1 retraced image and 1 preordain as knowing what counters your opponent has can be pretty big in protecting your combo.
1. The probe is pointless when you take in you're seriously being hindered when you can get a few other cards that are better in your deck..(cough)...more Ponders or Preordains.
2. Never cut your engine starter that's High Tide.
3. I'm sporting 3 copies of Surgical Extraction (SB) to handle the mass GY decks...that one trap won't save you...I know from serious personal experience on this topic.
4. Preordain is far better for some reason then Ponder, reverse your cut and you'll see what I mean after a few games.
5. There's no point in maining Brain Freeze as long as you're packing Wishes...just trust me, you're wasting a slot.
6. Without mb candles I would almost surely sport 4 Turnabouts...but you can ride that one out if your results are winning.
Those are my tested and recorded thoughts, I hope you do well bud.
S.M.
1. The probe is pointless when you take in you're seriously being hindered when you can get a few other cards that are better in your deck..(cough)...more Ponders or Preordains.
cutting 1 ponder or preordain is fine. prior to this i was running 1 trade routes in that slot which was really only useful during the combo. knowing what your opponent has to hinder you is well worth the chance of not being able to go off as fast. the only really fast deck in my meta right now is zoo anyway.
2. Never cut your engine starter that's High Tide.
6. Without mb candles I would almost surely sport 4 Turnabouts...but you can ride that one out if your results are winning.
i have 1 tide, turnabout and meditate in my SB. 3 of combo piece main + 4 scrolls + 3 wishes gives a much bigger chance of getting them compared to 4 of combo piece main + 4 scrolls.
3. I'm sporting 3 copies of Surgical Extraction (SB) to handle the mass GY decks...that one trap won't save you...I know from serious personal experience on this topic.
true. i'd like to fit in 1 extraction in there together with the trap but i'm not sure what to cut for it yet.
4. Preordain is far better for some reason then Ponder, reverse your cut and you'll see what I mean after a few games.
i know what you mean. i'm trying to weigh the advantages of seeing 3 deep compared to just 2 though. the only time preordain is better than ponder is when you want to keep one of the cards you see but not the rest.
5. There's no point in maining Brain Freeze as long as you're packing Wishes...just trust me, you're wasting a slot.
not having a wincon in your main even as a 1 of can be suicidal. if your wishes are all countered or extracted somehow then you automatically lose.
Ok, so I started looking into building a new legacy deck (Currently a Dredge player), and the one I've probably been most interested in is High Tide. The only problem is I have a couple questions for people who know the deck a lot better than I do.
1- Is High Tide on a decline? It got moved from Proven to Established, so I wasn't sure. Are there not enough people playing it, or has it lost a lot of its' competitiveness?
2- I was hoping for a little feedback on this decklist:
Basically, a non CoT high tide build with a wishboard, which seems pretty standard with many people. 1 of each kill condition in SB and MB to optimally grab as needed.
However I already see problems myself and am trying to figure out where to try to go.
- 3 FoW: I have 3 atm, of course when I pick up the fourth it will go in.
- The deck feels light on counters. 3 FoW and 4 MM mainboard looks a little wierd. Would I be better off doing a couple spell pierce MB instead of misstep? Or add another counter in entirely? This is probably where I'm most confused, because counters will help me survive to later turns where I can actually go off, so I don't think they should be so low... (EDIT: Even something like a Misdirection or 2 since I'm not at 4 FoW currently?)
- I've seen the idea of Emrakul here to ramp into very easily. Should I be running him?
- Is the land count/base good enough?
- And finally, how does the wishboard look? Anything need adjusting?
If your deck is 60 cards then you're playing with the best possible odds. 61? Probably won't alter your odds too much but we all know that 96% pure meth won't cut it next to Heisenberg's 99%.
Ok, so I started looking into building a new legacy deck (Currently a Dredge player), and the one I've probably been most interested in is High Tide. The only problem is I have a couple questions for people who know the deck a lot better than I do.
1- Is High Tide on a decline? It got moved from Proven to Established, so I wasn't sure. Are there not enough people playing it, or has it lost a lot of its' competitiveness?
2- I was hoping for a little feedback on this decklist:
Basically, a non CoT high tide build with a wishboard, which seems pretty standard with many people. 1 of each kill condition in SB and MB to optimally grab as needed.
However I already see problems myself and am trying to figure out where to try to go.
i think you only need 1 win condition in the main. blue sun's zenith is really only just an alternate wincon which is harder to pull off than the traditional brain freeze. if ever you do need it you can just get yourself a wish and take it from your sideboard as needed.
spring tide also typically has 3-4 flexi slots that can be used for candles, retraced image, etc. basically cards that enhance your combo or give you more gas (trade routes). the flexi slots are also where you would bring in some of the cards from your sideboard like the 2-3 additional counters. you can make the room by:
-1 ponder/preordain
-1 cunning wish
-1 blue sun's zenith
- 3 FoW: I have 3 atm, of course when I pick up the fourth it will go in.
- The deck feels light on counters. 3 FoW and 4 MM mainboard looks a little wierd. Would I be better off doing a couple spell pierce MB instead of misstep? Or add another counter in entirely? This is probably where I'm most confused, because counters will help me survive to later turns where I can actually go off, so I don't think they should be so low... (EDIT: Even something like a Misdirection or 2 since I'm not at 4 FoW currently?)
the counter count is low because most of the space is devoted to the combo and getting to it. counters are mostly needed to win the counter war when you go off and delay fast decks until you can do so.
misstep is currently the counter of choice to go along with FOW because almost every deck that runs blue these days runs it, and it happens to be just perfect for countering our tides so beating opposing ones is a must. misstep also helps you dodge 1cc discard spells like thoughtseize and IoK. against zoo it counters nacatls, apes, lions, etc giving you enough time walks to go off. 2-3 pact of negation/dispel/spell pierce are generally run in the sideboard to bring in as additional counters depending on the match-up.
- I've seen the idea of Emrakul here to ramp into very easily. Should I be running him?
i would advise against it. your combo pieces can all be found with scrolls or wishes. digging up one of these 2 with your draw spells is almost as good as drawing the combo piece itself. emrakul can't be searched in any realiable way.
- Is the land count/base good enough?
yes
- And finally, how does the wishboard look? Anything need adjusting?
Those answers are just what I needed, thanks. But I just have one small question:
spring tide also typically has 3-4 flexi slots that can be used for candles, retraced image, etc. you can make the room by:
-1 ponder/preordain
-1 cunning wish
-1 blue sun's zenith
I do not have CoT, and probably won't for some time, (basically if I can start playing a lot more than I do atm), but if I ever do get the candelabra, I know what to cut. For the mean time, do you still suggest cutting those 3? And if so, for what? I already know the Zenith needs to be cut, however should the other 2 still be cut at this time?
EDIT: Kinda forgot about retraced image. Should I cut 2 of the above for 2 retraced and it should be good? If so what? Or is there something that I could have better use...
If your deck is 60 cards then you're playing with the best possible odds. 61? Probably won't alter your odds too much but we all know that 96% pure meth won't cut it next to Heisenberg's 99%.
Those answers are just what I needed, thanks. But I just have one small question:
I do not have CoT, and probably won't for some time, (basically if I can start playing a lot more than I do atm), but if I ever do get the candelabra, I know what to cut. For the mean time, do you still suggest cutting those 3? And if so, for what? I already know the Zenith needs to be cut, however should the other 2 still be cut at this time?
EDIT: Kinda forgot about retraced image. Should I cut 2 of the above for 2 retraced and it should be good? If so what? Or is there something that I could have better use...
Thanks for the rest of the answers though.
retraced image, cloud of faeries, additional counters (pact of negation or dispel) are pretty common cards to run in those slots.
Ok, so I started looking into building a new legacy deck (Currently a Dredge player), and the one I've probably been most interested in is High Tide. The only problem is I have a couple questions for people who know the deck a lot better than I do.
1- Is High Tide on a decline? It got moved from Proven to Established, so I wasn't sure. Are there not enough people playing it, or has it lost a lot of its' competitiveness?
2- I was hoping for a little feedback on this decklist:
Basically, a non CoT high tide build with a wishboard, which seems pretty standard with many people. 1 of each kill condition in SB and MB to optimally grab as needed.
However I already see problems myself and am trying to figure out where to try to go.
- 3 FoW: I have 3 atm, of course when I pick up the fourth it will go in.
- The deck feels light on counters. 3 FoW and 4 MM mainboard looks a little wierd. Would I be better off doing a couple spell pierce MB instead of misstep? Or add another counter in entirely? This is probably where I'm most confused, because counters will help me survive to later turns where I can actually go off, so I don't think they should be so low... (EDIT: Even something like a Misdirection or 2 since I'm not at 4 FoW currently?)
- I've seen the idea of Emrakul here to ramp into very easily. Should I be running him?
- Is the land count/base good enough?
- And finally, how does the wishboard look? Anything need adjusting?
If I may be so bold as to point you to my most previous decklist, I think that what I have there is an excellent deck in which you can run Blue Sun's Zenith mainboard and have your Cunning Wishes act as 3 cmc Pact of Negations for combo protection. Just my two cents.
Also, in my opinion, the Retraced Image package is an excellent replacement for Candelabra.
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Ok, so I started looking into building a new legacy deck (Currently a Dredge player), and the one I've probably been most interested in is High Tide. The only problem is I have a couple questions for people who know the deck a lot better than I do.
1- Is High Tide on a decline? It got moved from Proven to Established, so I wasn't sure. Are there not enough people playing it, or has it lost a lot of its' competitiveness?
To be honest the deck is probably one of the hardest decks to pilot in any format, without Candelabra's it's without a doubt the hardest deck in Legacy to pick up and start winning with in my competitive opinion right away...that being said there's not a huge circuit of mages supporting this archetype for base reasons that YOU MUST have a keen insight...many mages enjoy auto pilot decks.
Now I've been through about 5 primers and almost every active post I can find on the deck, some speak about its troubles against hand disruption (given vs any combo deck when you think about it) and of course my latest rant with regards to Mental Missteps...but the truth is if you can harness the power and stay focused (BUY YOUR TIME AND WAIT FOR THE OPTIMAL MOMENTS TO EXPLODE) this deck is flat-out sick...there's nothing like having 145 blue mana floating on turn 5 lol.
I'm actually happy this deck isn't being played by the masses...the're so many broken cards in it that if everyone was doing so...wizards would be going on a ban spree, lots of broken cards in Spiral`Tide ;).
Brainstorm isn't going to get banned... It's one of the absolute foundations of the format and Wizards have never stated that they had a problem with blue being dominant. They'd be killing the format as we know it.
I highly doubt the banning of 1 blue card is going to kill the format... actually I know it wouldn't.
The fact is it is a powerful card and one that I see has a high chance to be banned, considering how many decks run it.
the number of decks running it is no longer the primary case for bannings. every deck that runs brainstorm also happens to run FoW as a 4-of. mental misstep isn't much different.
I highly doubt the banning of 1 blue card is going to kill the format... actually I know it wouldn't.
The fact is it is a powerful card and one that I see has a high chance to be banned, considering how many decks run it.
However, banning the best card in the format (a card that is barely over $1) would, however, ruin Legacy as we know it. Also, the reason I point out that it is so inexpensive is to show that Brainstorm is not, in fact, a broken card. Usually broken cards or broken card combos have huge price tags on them, and for good reason.
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However, banning the best card in the format (a card that is barely over $1) would, however, ruin Legacy as we know it. Also, the reason I point out that it is so inexpensive is to show that Brainstorm is not, in fact, a broken card. Usually broken cards or broken card combos have huge price tags on them, and for good reason.
Not if they are a common that has been printed multiple times.
On topic though, there is no way they will ban Brainstorm. The format needs brainstorm and force of will. Without these two cards, the format will become too much like Modern where the meta is mainly turn 2 or 3 combo decks. Yes combo does run brainstorm, but brainstorm is more important for decks such as Stoneblade then it is for combo decks
Not if they are a common that has been printed multiple times.
On topic though, there is no way they will ban Brainstorm. The format needs brainstorm and force of will. Without these two cards, the format will become too much like Modern where the meta is mainly turn 2 or 3 combo decks. Yes combo does run brainstorm, but brainstorm is more important for decks such as Stoneblade then it is for combo decks
It doesn't turn it into Modern, it turns Legacy into the largest aggro format of all-time rendering everyone to consider playing Modern though (something I've not wasted my time on quite yet)...rhetorical.
Now that we're past the nonsense talk of Brainstorm bannings can anyone share their criticisms on the full blown Meditate version? I'm becoming more and more curious with regards to Meditate as I'm seeing several combo decks running 4 deep...non-high tide decks to note.
I wouldn't be surprised if Meditate sky-rockets in the next few months, the card is on the reserved (L) and it just wins games (love the sole copy in my wish board) with almost no drawback assuming you go nuts as a end result.
In a few weeks I'll be playing this deck in a medium tournament with an aggro-intensive and slow combo field. The most dangerous decks, I think will be an Affinity one and another that will be either a draw/mill deck or a green ramp/land destruction deck. I can completely skip the control decks as they are too expensive for 90% of the field. It is very unlikely that I'll meet a lot of Mental Missteps, for instance. It is extremely likely that I can go off on turn 5-6 or even 7 without having troubles, except for the affinity opponent or the ramp/ld one.
In that case, what is the best build to use ? I have all the main cards of the various builds and I played a few of the builds. I can easily get all the cards that I don't currently own. The only thing is that I don't have enough experience with deciding the best build to take based on the field.
So if you could help me, I'd be very grateful !
edit: For info, I own 3 CoT and I would prefer to play with them - especially since MM will be mostly absent from the field - rather than play any no-CoT version.
Well, since you have the Candelabras, You definitely should run a build with CoT and Mind Over Matter in it, as Mind Over Matter is ridiculous on the field when you've dropped a Candelabra. Discard one card, untap all your lands.
Another variation you could use would be running the 4x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn win con in which you run Ideas Unbound instead of Meditate, and you drop Emmy on turn 3, get an extra turn, then attack and your opponent folds. Either way, it's up to you.
Aside from that, my personal preference is to run both win cons (Brain Freeze and Blue Sun's Zenith) in both main board and wishboard; but I guess that's up to you.
And as for Affinity, you may want to increase your artifact bounce in the wishboard (maybe even have some main board) to deal with the artifact threats. Also, if you're conscerned about a mill deck beating you, maybe just run one Emrakul, the Aeons Torn mainboard to prevent that from ever happening. If it's a mirror match, you'll also need to counter their Blue Sun's Zenith if they go off before you, so definitely pack 4 FoW main and possibly 3 more counters as well. As for the G ramp/land destruction deck you spoke of, unless they are destroying basic lands, you really shouldn't have too much of a problem with them.
My last thoughts will be a warning. This deck is extremely difficult to pilot and can go off on turn 3 or 4 about 80% of the time. If you aren't, I would practice, practice, practice until I knew when I could go off with whatever hand. This might take you a week or two, but it'll be worth it if you're able to win the tournament.
Anyways, that's my 2 cents. Which I suppose, really is less than your 2 Eurocents.
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How about a couple of Palinchron as a win con? It can give unlimited blue mana.
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Well, the most dangerous guy is playing either pure mill stuff either the mono-G. So I won't play both. But if he plays the LD deck, it will be with basic-land-destruction.
I know how to play this deck: I've been practicing it successfully for the time Time Spiral is back in the field, but it's tuned for a competitive environment. This environment is not competitive. And experience learned me that non-competitive can be extremely difficult to handle.
Well, Emmy's maindeck cause I really fear mill decks. I think this is what will be the most played. So I've set my Brain Freeze in the sideboard, to be maindecked against "unharmful" decks. I don't plan on actually playing Emmy as Meditate would make me lose the benefit of Emmy's extra turn. BF is still my main kill, even if it's the sideboard.
As I really feel like Mental Misstep will be absent, I prefer Spell Pierce to it against the potential (but slow) combo decks and I moved it to the sideboard.
Noxious Revival in the side acts as an extra wished High Tide or as counter-counterspell.
I'm still thinking about the need of having both RebuildandHurkyl's Recall: I prefer Rebuild as I can take my CoTs back and it gives me extra storm, but Recall is much more effective agains Affinity. If I don't use Rebuild in the end, I'll probably make good use of Hibernation.
@Heresy19
About Palinchron, I don't really like it because I can't properly tutor it and it needs already 11 mana to go infinite. That being said, I'm not against the idea and I do really enjoy have extra weapons at my disposal since I'm adventuring in unknown charts. How many to play, and furthermore, what to remove? Based on the list above, what would you change to include it, while still taking my other "requirements" checked?
On a lighter note, do you think Mystical Tutor will be unbanned or Time Spiral was unbanned precisely because Mystical Tutor became banned? Both can't live together for a healthy format, I guess.
I think this is a really solid build for the matches you expect to be up against. As per the Palinchron question, I run one in my list, and here it is:
As you can see, I run the Retraced Image package and I personally like it a lot with Palinchron because when I do drop him, I usually already have 7 lands down (and this is turn 3 or 4. hee hee ). I draw a lot with this list (as do most High Tide lists) and I usually run into Palinchron about 75% of my games.
Lastly, I think I heard some talk of them possibly unbanning Mystical Tutor, but who knows.
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Well if Palinchron comes that easy and since I run the CoT package, I guess I can remove one Turnabout to make room for that Palinchron then. I'll playtest that.
Another question : I run the full 6 fetches in order to use 4 Preordain and 2 ponder. I never had much troubles with that. I know it's a matter of luck but half of the time I get what I expected with my Preordain, or at least something that helps me go deeper like other cantrips or. Why is everybody still prefering 4 ponder / 2 preordains ?
Indeed the Retraced Image package seems to be a much better drawer with that single Trade Routes. I really feel like the CoT package and the RI one can't live together because they take too much space. But I would play both if I could.
Edit: I'll use Kozilek, Butcher of Truth instead of Emrakul. I still plan not to use it, but if I happen to do it, Kozilek goes better with the deck than Emrakul as it's an extra drawer (and is cheaper). Emmy makes me "win" back one of the several turns I still lose with Meditate.
Hahaha. I just realized that in my list is a typo. It should have 4 Ponder and 2 Preordain. The reason I run 4 Ponder over Preordain is because Ponder lets you get one card deeper, and if you end up liking none of the cards, you can shuffle your library.
Also, I agree with you that I wish both the Retraced Image and Candelabra package could coincide easier, but that might make this deck too broken. I, personally prefer RI over CoT, partially for budget reasons and partially just because I think it's slightly more consistent.
I also agree with your choice of Kozilek, Butcher of Truth over Emmy. In fact, I don't know why I didn't think about that. Kozilek is like my favorite Eldrazi anyways. I guess with all the hype associated with Emrakul, I just kinda forgot that Kozilek shuffles back in too. Kozilek is also a really good "oh, crap I have tons of mana and no more draw spells other than this Eldrazi in my hand" backup plan.
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Also, I agree with you that I wish both the Retraced Image and Candelabra package could coincide easier, but that might make this deck too broken. I, personally prefer RI over CoT, partially for budget reasons and partially just because I think it's slightly more consistent.
I have in the past run 3x CoT and 2x Retraced Images with great results. Note this was pre - printing of metal miss step.
And it looks like High Tides will be back to being a Tier 1 deck due to MM ban.
misstep being banned annoys me even if i'm a high tide player. misstep gave us a much better chance against zoo, other combo decks and discard (BW stoneblade, the gate, pox, etc). any opposing missteps we could just counter with our own anyway.
misstep being banned annoys me even if i'm a high tide player. misstep gave us a much better chance against zoo, other combo decks and discard (BW stoneblade, the gate, pox, etc). any opposing missteps we could just counter with our own anyway.
Well, I never had problems against those decks before MM was printed. MM just meant we had to run or own, which meant dropping a candle and other relevant stuff. Of those decks you listed:
BW stoneblade shouldnt be that hard to beat
any decks running Hymn is a problem, just have to play around (MM doesnt counter hymn anyways)
Pox is always and was always a bad match
Zoo had issues beating me in time
TES/ANT just meant you had to board into more counter to beat games 2-3
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
IMO, MM gave some decks the potential to beat us that had no business beating us... ala Zoo. At the same time making us drop engines/cantrips to run our own MMs... bad form.
@GradStudentGuy, could you post your list with CoT and RI?
I have played around with both, and they both seem viable again with MM out. My problem with retraced Image is that it kind of sucks with Fetch lands. Only advice to give is go to 4 fetchlands of the same name, or cut the fetches entirely.
This will probably be my flex spots now that i can drop MMs fom the main, and I'll leave fetches with only 1 RI:
14 island
1 brain freeze
2 gitaxian probe
2 retraced image
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 preordain
3 meditate
4 merchant's scroll
3 cunning wish
3 high tide
3 turnabout
4 time spiral
3 mental misstep
4 force of will
1 brain freeze
1 blue sun's zenith
1 high tide
1 meditate
1 turnabout
3 pact of negation
1 echoing truth
2 snap
1 rebuild
1 wipe away
1 mindbreak trap
1 ravenous trap
I would make a few changes...
1. The probe is pointless when you take in you're seriously being hindered when you can get a few other cards that are better in your deck..(cough)...more Ponders or Preordains.
2. Never cut your engine starter that's High Tide.
3. I'm sporting 3 copies of Surgical Extraction (SB) to handle the mass GY decks...that one trap won't save you...I know from serious personal experience on this topic.
4. Preordain is far better for some reason then Ponder, reverse your cut and you'll see what I mean after a few games.
5. There's no point in maining Brain Freeze as long as you're packing Wishes...just trust me, you're wasting a slot.
6. Without mb candles I would almost surely sport 4 Turnabouts...but you can ride that one out if your results are winning.
Those are my tested and recorded thoughts, I hope you do well bud.
S.M.
cutting 1 ponder or preordain is fine. prior to this i was running 1 trade routes in that slot which was really only useful during the combo. knowing what your opponent has to hinder you is well worth the chance of not being able to go off as fast. the only really fast deck in my meta right now is zoo anyway.
i have 1 tide, turnabout and meditate in my SB. 3 of combo piece main + 4 scrolls + 3 wishes gives a much bigger chance of getting them compared to 4 of combo piece main + 4 scrolls.
true. i'd like to fit in 1 extraction in there together with the trap but i'm not sure what to cut for it yet.
i know what you mean. i'm trying to weigh the advantages of seeing 3 deep compared to just 2 though. the only time preordain is better than ponder is when you want to keep one of the cards you see but not the rest.
not having a wincon in your main even as a 1 of can be suicidal. if your wishes are all countered or extracted somehow then you automatically lose.
1- Is High Tide on a decline? It got moved from Proven to Established, so I wasn't sure. Are there not enough people playing it, or has it lost a lot of its' competitiveness?
2- I was hoping for a little feedback on this decklist:
14 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
Sorcery
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Time Spiral
Instant
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
4 Cunning Wish
3 Force of Will
3 High Tide
3 Meditate
4 Mental Misstep
3 Turnabout
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 High Tide
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
2 Snap
3 Ravenous Trap
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Spell Pierce
However I already see problems myself and am trying to figure out where to try to go.
- 3 FoW: I have 3 atm, of course when I pick up the fourth it will go in.
- The deck feels light on counters. 3 FoW and 4 MM mainboard looks a little wierd. Would I be better off doing a couple spell pierce MB instead of misstep? Or add another counter in entirely? This is probably where I'm most confused, because counters will help me survive to later turns where I can actually go off, so I don't think they should be so low... (EDIT: Even something like a Misdirection or 2 since I'm not at 4 FoW currently?)
- I've seen the idea of Emrakul here to ramp into very easily. Should I be running him?
- Is the land count/base good enough?
- And finally, how does the wishboard look? Anything need adjusting?
i think you only need 1 win condition in the main. blue sun's zenith is really only just an alternate wincon which is harder to pull off than the traditional brain freeze. if ever you do need it you can just get yourself a wish and take it from your sideboard as needed.
spring tide also typically has 3-4 flexi slots that can be used for candles, retraced image, etc. basically cards that enhance your combo or give you more gas (trade routes). the flexi slots are also where you would bring in some of the cards from your sideboard like the 2-3 additional counters. you can make the room by:
-1 ponder/preordain
-1 cunning wish
-1 blue sun's zenith
the counter count is low because most of the space is devoted to the combo and getting to it. counters are mostly needed to win the counter war when you go off and delay fast decks until you can do so.
misstep is currently the counter of choice to go along with FOW because almost every deck that runs blue these days runs it, and it happens to be just perfect for countering our tides so beating opposing ones is a must. misstep also helps you dodge 1cc discard spells like thoughtseize and IoK. against zoo it counters nacatls, apes, lions, etc giving you enough time walks to go off. 2-3 pact of negation/dispel/spell pierce are generally run in the sideboard to bring in as additional counters depending on the match-up.
i would advise against it. your combo pieces can all be found with scrolls or wishes. digging up one of these 2 with your draw spells is almost as good as drawing the combo piece itself. emrakul can't be searched in any realiable way.
yes
looks ok to me
I do not have CoT, and probably won't for some time, (basically if I can start playing a lot more than I do atm), but if I ever do get the candelabra, I know what to cut. For the mean time, do you still suggest cutting those 3? And if so, for what? I already know the Zenith needs to be cut, however should the other 2 still be cut at this time?
EDIT: Kinda forgot about retraced image. Should I cut 2 of the above for 2 retraced and it should be good? If so what? Or is there something that I could have better use...
Thanks for the rest of the answers though.
retraced image, cloud of faeries, additional counters (pact of negation or dispel) are pretty common cards to run in those slots.
If I may be so bold as to point you to my most previous decklist, I think that what I have there is an excellent deck in which you can run Blue Sun's Zenith mainboard and have your Cunning Wishes act as 3 cmc Pact of Negations for combo protection. Just my two cents.
Also, in my opinion, the Retraced Image package is an excellent replacement for Candelabra.
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
To be honest the deck is probably one of the hardest decks to pilot in any format, without Candelabra's it's without a doubt the hardest deck in Legacy to pick up and start winning with in my competitive opinion right away...that being said there's not a huge circuit of mages supporting this archetype for base reasons that YOU MUST have a keen insight...many mages enjoy auto pilot decks.
Now I've been through about 5 primers and almost every active post I can find on the deck, some speak about its troubles against hand disruption (given vs any combo deck when you think about it) and of course my latest rant with regards to Mental Missteps...but the truth is if you can harness the power and stay focused (BUY YOUR TIME AND WAIT FOR THE OPTIMAL MOMENTS TO EXPLODE) this deck is flat-out sick...there's nothing like having 145 blue mana floating on turn 5 lol.
I'm actually happy this deck isn't being played by the masses...the're so many broken cards in it that if everyone was doing so...wizards would be going on a ban spree, lots of broken cards in Spiral`Tide ;).
S.M.
On the other hand I have a feeling Brainstorm is going to get banned as well, which will hurt High Tide. The card is already restricted in Vintage.
I highly doubt the banning of 1 blue card is going to kill the format... actually I know it wouldn't.
The fact is it is a powerful card and one that I see has a high chance to be banned, considering how many decks run it.
However, banning the best card in the format (a card that is barely over $1) would, however, ruin Legacy as we know it. Also, the reason I point out that it is so inexpensive is to show that Brainstorm is not, in fact, a broken card. Usually broken cards or broken card combos have huge price tags on them, and for good reason.
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
Not if they are a common that has been printed multiple times.
On topic though, there is no way they will ban Brainstorm. The format needs brainstorm and force of will. Without these two cards, the format will become too much like Modern where the meta is mainly turn 2 or 3 combo decks. Yes combo does run brainstorm, but brainstorm is more important for decks such as Stoneblade then it is for combo decks
It doesn't turn it into Modern, it turns Legacy into the largest aggro format of all-time rendering everyone to consider playing Modern though (something I've not wasted my time on quite yet)...rhetorical.
Now that we're past the nonsense talk of Brainstorm bannings can anyone share their criticisms on the full blown Meditate version? I'm becoming more and more curious with regards to Meditate as I'm seeing several combo decks running 4 deep...non-high tide decks to note.
I wouldn't be surprised if Meditate sky-rockets in the next few months, the card is on the reserved (L) and it just wins games (love the sole copy in my wish board) with almost no drawback assuming you go nuts as a end result.
S.M.
Well, since you have the Candelabras, You definitely should run a build with CoT and Mind Over Matter in it, as Mind Over Matter is ridiculous on the field when you've dropped a Candelabra. Discard one card, untap all your lands.
Another variation you could use would be running the 4x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn win con in which you run Ideas Unbound instead of Meditate, and you drop Emmy on turn 3, get an extra turn, then attack and your opponent folds. Either way, it's up to you.
Aside from that, my personal preference is to run both win cons (Brain Freeze and Blue Sun's Zenith) in both main board and wishboard; but I guess that's up to you.
And as for Affinity, you may want to increase your artifact bounce in the wishboard (maybe even have some main board) to deal with the artifact threats. Also, if you're conscerned about a mill deck beating you, maybe just run one Emrakul, the Aeons Torn mainboard to prevent that from ever happening. If it's a mirror match, you'll also need to counter their Blue Sun's Zenith if they go off before you, so definitely pack 4 FoW main and possibly 3 more counters as well. As for the G ramp/land destruction deck you spoke of, unless they are destroying basic lands, you really shouldn't have too much of a problem with them.
My last thoughts will be a warning. This deck is extremely difficult to pilot and can go off on turn 3 or 4 about 80% of the time. If you aren't, I would practice, practice, practice until I knew when I could go off with whatever hand. This might take you a week or two, but it'll be worth it if you're able to win the tournament.
Anyways, that's my 2 cents. Which I suppose, really is less than your 2 Eurocents.
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
Standard: XDon't play.X
Legacy: BUReanimatorUB
Vintage: URBWGDBRU
I think this is a really solid build for the matches you expect to be up against. As per the Palinchron question, I run one in my list, and here it is:
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
13 Island
Spells:
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 High Tide
3 Turnabout
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Time Spiral
4 Retraced Tides
1 Trade Routes
1 Palinchron
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Wipe Away
1 Turnabout
1 Snap
2 Repeal
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Pact of Negation
1 Meditate
1 Echoing Truth
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
As you can see, I run the Retraced Image package and I personally like it a lot with Palinchron because when I do drop him, I usually already have 7 lands down (and this is turn 3 or 4. hee hee ). I draw a lot with this list (as do most High Tide lists) and I usually run into Palinchron about 75% of my games.
Lastly, I think I heard some talk of them possibly unbanning Mystical Tutor, but who knows.
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
Hahaha. I just realized that in my list is a typo. It should have 4 Ponder and 2 Preordain. The reason I run 4 Ponder over Preordain is because Ponder lets you get one card deeper, and if you end up liking none of the cards, you can shuffle your library.
Also, I agree with you that I wish both the Retraced Image and Candelabra package could coincide easier, but that might make this deck too broken. I, personally prefer RI over CoT, partially for budget reasons and partially just because I think it's slightly more consistent.
I also agree with your choice of Kozilek, Butcher of Truth over Emmy. In fact, I don't know why I didn't think about that. Kozilek is like my favorite Eldrazi anyways. I guess with all the hype associated with Emrakul, I just kinda forgot that Kozilek shuffles back in too. Kozilek is also a really good "oh, crap I have tons of mana and no more draw spells other than this Eldrazi in my hand" backup plan.
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
I have in the past run 3x CoT and 2x Retraced Images with great results. Note this was pre - printing of metal miss step.
And it looks like High Tides will be back to being a Tier 1 deck due to MM ban.
WorkshopsLegacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH:
Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!Urza, Lord High Artificer
also, I'm putting 1 Flusterstorm as a wish target.
We back baby!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well, I never had problems against those decks before MM was printed. MM just meant we had to run or own, which meant dropping a candle and other relevant stuff. Of those decks you listed:
BW stoneblade shouldnt be that hard to beat
any decks running Hymn is a problem, just have to play around (MM doesnt counter hymn anyways)
Pox is always and was always a bad match
Zoo had issues beating me in time
TES/ANT just meant you had to board into more counter to beat games 2-3
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
IMO, MM gave some decks the potential to beat us that had no business beating us... ala Zoo. At the same time making us drop engines/cantrips to run our own MMs... bad form.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
I have played around with both, and they both seem viable again with MM out. My problem with retraced Image is that it kind of sucks with Fetch lands. Only advice to give is go to 4 fetchlands of the same name, or cut the fetches entirely.
This will probably be my flex spots now that i can drop MMs fom the main, and I'll leave fetches with only 1 RI:
1 Retraced Image
1 Intuition
1 Mind Over Matter
You can perform tricks with Intuition for 1 RI and x 2 CoT...
Also gives resilence vs. Extirpate/pridemage effects.
RI becomes essentially the 5th CoT, and MoM becomes essentially the 5th Time Spiral.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur