The problem I've been having recently is not having board presence by turn two. I want to be able to consistently pull off a turn 2 Wurmcoil/Battlesphere/Sundering Titan. I could picture Copper Gnomes helping in that department.
That said, adding the Gnome will dilute the threat numbers that we have. I think it would be good, but not in the current shell.
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Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
So maybe I'm retarded and the suggestions I'm about to make don't work in Legacy, but...
Galvanic Blast? With 4 Citadel, 4 Furnace and every dude who isn't Welder being an artifact, I always get to Flame Jav for a single R.
Ichor Wellspring? You can weld Furnace/Citadel into it and back every turn to have a constant Phyrexian Arena with no life loss. And no mana loss, assuming you tap Furnace before you Weld it. Also, fantastic Ravager fodder. And Shrapnel Blast cantrips, lol.
Lightning makes Axe to put Wurmcoil in the yard, burn a creature at their eot, then weld it into play turn 2? Besides, Welder turn 1 either eats a removal spell or a counterspell, and if not, shenanigans ensue.
Ichor wellspring is mediocre at best without the welder on the field. The list is pretty tight and neither of these cards are good enough to consider taking something else out for.
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“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” -Sun Tzu
Decks I Play EDH RStarke of Rath chaosR UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW Legacy WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW XMUDX
I read some early comments on Blightsteel Colossus, and I want to say now that he is required. Turn two/three Metalworkers/Forgemasters happen, and you want to seize the game while you have the chance. Sorry if this was already known. I just added him in yesterday and I love him.
Magidex, the list is tight. I rather draw into a threat instead of taking a turn to Cycle. Blue decks are hard to play against, and you need relevant cards all the time. If you're worried about digging through your deck, try Top or something. And you don't need Shrapnel Blast or Galvanic Blast when you're beating in with Lodestone/Wurmcoil/Steel Hellkite.
Question: Which Moxen should be run? And how much? If there are multiple options, how would each list accommodate? (ie Crucible with M.Diamond, etc.)
How is Staff of Domination used? Apart from combo-ing with Metalworker it's a clunky pseudo-Fog. Any other applications?
Sorry, not a fan of alterations on old cards that are in limited supply. They represent a part of the game's history, and in my opinion altering them shows scant regard for that.
Staff of Domination has been an absolute all-star for me. While games do exist where simply dropping a BSC out of your library seals the game, sometimes something a little bit more forceful is needed. At least in my list, choosing to go all-in on the Staff/Metalworker combo in matches that need it (such as when you happen to be facing down a Blazing Archon or Solitary Confinement, or when you just need to win quickly when generally unopposed) can steal a game that would have otherwise been a loss.
The manabase still needs optimized, as I feel that the deck could really benefit from additional fetchlands (and maybe Wastelands), but I still haven't figured out exactly what to do with that yet.
Hey Undomian, I just realized, you watched a few of my games on Cockatrice last night! I was looking at some screenshots when I saw your alias. In fact, didn't we play a few games? (I forgot what deck you were running, it was quite late and I was really tired.)
I still need Fish help, I don't think I've won a single game against them. I do run Summoning Traps in the board, but is there any other tech card we can incorporate? All is Dust? Contagion Engine? Grim Poppet or Triskellion?
Also, I played against a Stony Silence/Null Rod today. That really sucked.
Sorry, not a fan of alterations on old cards that are in limited supply. They represent a part of the game's history, and in my opinion altering them shows scant regard for that.
Null Rod is really hard to beat =/ just have to hope to get a lot of SOL lands...
As for fish, I run a single contagion engine, but the matchup shouldn't be as hard as you make it out to be. The moment they run out of counter spell, you win. They have to deal with absolutely every fatty you try to play, and they just can't. Remember to play around daze, as you can afford it eaily.
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“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” -Sun Tzu
Decks I Play EDH RStarke of Rath chaosR UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW Legacy WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW XMUDX
Sorry, not a fan of alterations on old cards that are in limited supply. They represent a part of the game's history, and in my opinion altering them shows scant regard for that.
I like the idea of 2 Sundering Titan, but I'm not sure if that is redundant. Let me know how that works for you in testing.
What is your reasoning behind Crucible, Tangle Wire, and Ratchet Bomb? I haven't played with them before.
Have you tried Steel Hellkite? He covers the air and gets over Moat. On second thought, Hellkite could take Ratchet Bomb's place.
Crystal Vein is an interesting choice. Though it supports a strong turn 1 or 2, you lose sustainability, and sometimes that's what you need. Crystal Vein > Monolith which gets Spell Snared/Dazed/Forced puts you in a bad spot. Is Crucible + CV reliable enough to make up for this?
Black decks are tough... It's embarrassing, but t1 Thoughtseize t2 Hymn kind of sucks. It really doesn't help that the deck is inconsistent and that the deck needs to mull and draw itself out of sketchy opening hands.
Sorry, not a fan of alterations on old cards that are in limited supply. They represent a part of the game's history, and in my opinion altering them shows scant regard for that.
Would it be a good idea to run Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon from the board? He seems like a strong card to take advantage of the red mana already in the deck, and can provide quite the beating on decks with dodgy mana bases (Combo and greedy control decks)
Steel helkite is a must, I'd drop a sundering titan for it, as I think 2 is overkill. Spellskite is a card I have been trying out but recently it seems that Loadstone golem is better just because I find myself with all mana producers and protection, but with nothing to protect. It could just be problems with my numbers though. I also think that crucible is lackluster and too slow for what the deck is trying to accomplish. You list looks very similar to the team Meandeck list that placed in the SCG that got the deck some recognition. I think it is a little outdated, and that the blue splash is better than welder.
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“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” -Sun Tzu
Decks I Play EDH RStarke of Rath chaosR UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW Legacy WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW XMUDX
MoT_Pestilence, could you post a Blue version of this deck? I have been playing red and I want to try something new, eps. if you think red is dated and blue is solid.
Also, has anyone testing against RUG Tempo? Seeing now that it is a deck to beat, what are MUD's chances? And tips?
Sorry, not a fan of alterations on old cards that are in limited supply. They represent a part of the game's history, and in my opinion altering them shows scant regard for that.
This list placed 8th in an SCG. I don't suggest running Karn. Also, having Top and Key in the same deck as Chalice of the void can be a problem, but this is a good start. (I guess it worked for him, top 8 is not bad.)
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“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” -Sun Tzu
Decks I Play EDH RStarke of Rath chaosR UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW Legacy WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW XMUDX
bearpear your list looks pretty standard, there's nothing strange about it.
-I don't like Platinum Emperion. For 8 I rather cast another threat, and I never found myself tutoring for it.
-I never tried Crucible of Worlds, what is the reason for your inclusion?
-I wish I owned a fourth Wurmcoil...
-I currently play more Steel Hellkite. Thinking this through, Wurmcoil has the same effect against aggro decks. I need to figure out when it is better to have flying Ratchet Bombs vs. Lifelink. It does block Clique/Delver I guess... I don't know.
Sorry, not a fan of alterations on old cards that are in limited supply. They represent a part of the game's history, and in my opinion altering them shows scant regard for that.
I hear the second Battlesphere is good (over the emperion) and Mox Diamond generally warrants an inclusion as a 2 or 3-of.
Crucible is mostly good because Wasteland lock is pretty much game against some decks.
Opening hands want to be able to put a threat out quickly. I guess you really want acceleration and two threats, in case one dies. But the deck doesn't really mulligan very well.
Do not apologize for questions, I imagine that is what this thread is for.
Replace the Emperion with either Hellkite or Battlesphere.
My current list runs 17 lands, 2 Diamonds and 3 Opals. Early game you get turn 1 Monoliths, mid game you get your Welders out, late game it fuels Welder. I'm on the fence with Diamond myself, I'll let you know when I have more results.
I feel like Crucible shenanigans are icing on top of the cake. Drop a robot and protect him, don't worry too much about other things. Also, due to the poor card filtering of this deck, you need cards that are relevant in tight spots.
A large reason as to why this deck is tier 1.5 is due to the consistency. If you have access to the deck or Magic Workstation or Cockatrice, I recommend grinding in order to figure out mulligans. Take a look at your hand and see what you can cast and cannot cast. Keep in mind that you have 1-2 turns to draw out of what you have.
Sorry, not a fan of alterations on old cards that are in limited supply. They represent a part of the game's history, and in my opinion altering them shows scant regard for that.
1) I don't mean to go against what every one else is saying but I run a 1 of Platinum angel (same idea as Emperion) and it has saved me in countless games. I would not suggest taking it out...
2) I don't like Crucible because slow attrition by recurring wastelands is not what I think we want to be doing, that is stax/loams job. If crucible was a threat or a mana ability, or even a spellskite I think it would be more beneficial. I really don't see crucible that often anymore and I think this is the reason why.
3) I mostly see a 2/2 split of diamonds and opals, but that is really what you like best.
4) I usually see 2 Lightning Greaves because drawing more than 1 can be a problem.
5) I don't know if I'm allowed to do this but this site is really good for looking up deck lists to get a feel for what other people are doing with their numbers and what they fill their slots with. It tells the the tournament they placed in, the place they got, and gives you the deck-list. Obviously put your own twists on the decklists, but it is good for seeing what is tested and true, at least for other people. http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=MUD&format=Legacy
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“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” -Sun Tzu
Decks I Play EDH RStarke of Rath chaosR UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW Legacy WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW XMUDX
@MoT_Pestilence, I'm interested in your experiences with Angel. When were the instances that it became helpful? Was it against an aggro, control, or a combo deck? Details would be most appreciated. I am playing in a tournament this Saturday, and I want to finalize my list before Thursday, so thank you for that link.
With regards to Lightning Greaves, I really like opening with it in conjunction with either Metalworker or Forgemaster. Rarely have I lost with that opening, but for consistency's sake, I will try two Greaves and see if that helps round things out, as I already have two Spellskite in my current list.
@alex holland, I have never tried four Opals. Conceptually it seems like a scary number. I almost never want to see Opal mid to late game.
Some lists may not play Key because of the same reason of not playing four Opals; this deck needs threats. Again though, the numbers here are highly conceptual. Key isn't bad late game when you need Vigilance or a second Forgemaster activation I guess, but I rarely find it revolutionary to draw one turns five and later.
I run a singleton Spine. If I drop him early game I usually hit a land. Otherwise, I've had to tutor it up to destroy cards like Moat and Jace. As you mentioned, Metalworker+Goblin Welder+Spine is good in some situations. I am confident in Spine's inclusion, but I would be willing to take him out if there is a better approach.
Sorry, not a fan of alterations on old cards that are in limited supply. They represent a part of the game's history, and in my opinion altering them shows scant regard for that.
@ Kingofethanol: The angel has won me games against all three. When she comes down they have to answer her in a set number of turns and they can't always do that. If she comes down late when most of their hate is gone, but they are swinging for lethal, you can win the game unexpectedly. Control like enchantress or stax usually doesn't have the removal to deal with it, and other control decks don't play mass removal so an angel with greaves is almost an auto win. I run my deck more like a "tutor for the silver bullet" deck and less like a stompy, so I run a lot of 1 ofs that help in a lot of different situations.
@alex: never go 4 opals, legendary rule and not wanting it mid-late game says no...
Key is usually not played in the lists that run Chalice of the Void, because more than 90% of the time chalice will be set at 1, and key drawn after that is a dead card, which our deck cannot afford. You don't run chalice so it's of course a great card for you. That being said though, I really like Chalice of the void as it stops almost all removal against us, as well as other juicy things like brainstorm, and duress.
Spine as a singleton is a good choice, we cant beat Ensnaring Bridge without it, or Karn, and Karn cannot be tutored like spine can. I suggest running it at least side, if not in the main.
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“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” -Sun Tzu
Decks I Play EDH RStarke of Rath chaosR UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW Legacy WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW XMUDX
@alex holland
You can get some comments on Copper Gnomes on page four of the thread.
@MoT_Pestilence
Thanks for the justification, I added an Angel into my current list. It seems like more people prefer Emperion, any idea why? Though the Angel has a smaller body I like the evasion.
Sorry, not a fan of alterations on old cards that are in limited supply. They represent a part of the game's history, and in my opinion altering them shows scant regard for that.
@alex holland
You can get some comments on Copper Gnomes on page four of the thread.
@MoT_Pestilence
Thanks for the justification, I added an Angel into my current list. It seems like more people prefer Emperion, any idea why? Though the Angel has a smaller body I like the evasion.
Angel lets you get put in a position whereby you're about to lose the game (Ex: negative life total) at that point, they need only remove the angel to finish you off. That means they can be chipping away at your life total while the angel is out, and it won't have an effect until they attempt to finish you. Emperion prevents this by not allowing your life total to change, plus has a much larger body to contend with. If I'm worrying about being killed by brain freeze/high tide, other mill combo like leyline/helm or painter/stone, or I'm facing an auto-win/lose like hive mind, I'd rather have the Angel since it'll stop you from losing in those situations, but for anything else I'd rather have the emperion.
At the end of the day, most likely they'll both bite it to a simple removal spell and the whole discussion will be irrelevant, but for the time being I'll prefer emperion, unless I'm facing heavy combo.
At the end of the day, most likely they'll both bite it to a simple removal spell and the whole discussion will be irrelevant, but for the time being I'll prefer emperion, unless I'm facing heavy combo.
It's hard to evaluate a creature when you're taking the "does it pass the StP test" approach.
From experience, combo can only deal with Chalice/Lodestone/Spheres with Rebuild. They need to get off the turn they cast it, so I feel like whichever Platinum is on the field is irrelevant. MUD needs spheres and clocks to beat combo. Perhaps there will be an opportunity to tutor for something in a pinch.
I feel stupid for answering part of my own question, but I still need to figure out which Platinum is better against Aggro and or Control.
So I ran into a few match ups recently.
Apparently turn one Goblin Lackey is hard to beat.
Still having troubles with Stoneblade-esque decks. StP, Batterskull, Jace, fliers? No thank you.
Anyway, I don't know who's in charge of running threads, but is there some way I can post some match up information somewhere? I would like to start documenting them somehow.
Speaking of which, what are some of MUD's positive match ups? I can think of High Tide or Zoo (but mostly postboard...) Someone remind me why I play this deck please?
Sorry, not a fan of alterations on old cards that are in limited supply. They represent a part of the game's history, and in my opinion altering them shows scant regard for that.
Just played in a duels for duels tournament at the local game store and made 5th, netting me a signed volcanic island. I'll get you guys the list if you want it.
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Decks I Play EDH RStarke of Rath chaosR UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW Legacy WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW XMUDX
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I picked up a playset of these ages ago. Just for this deck. Sadly, they are too slow. Everything you want to do with them, you can do faster.
It's basically six mana, with six mana, you should be able to get running very fast anyways.
I like Turtles
That said, adding the Gnome will dilute the threat numbers that we have. I think it would be good, but not in the current shell.
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
Galvanic Blast? With 4 Citadel, 4 Furnace and every dude who isn't Welder being an artifact, I always get to Flame Jav for a single R.
Ichor Wellspring? You can weld Furnace/Citadel into it and back every turn to have a constant Phyrexian Arena with no life loss. And no mana loss, assuming you tap Furnace before you Weld it. Also, fantastic Ravager fodder. And Shrapnel Blast cantrips, lol.
Lightning makes Axe to put Wurmcoil in the yard, burn a creature at their eot, then weld it into play turn 2? Besides, Welder turn 1 either eats a removal spell or a counterspell, and if not, shenanigans ensue.
-Sun Tzu
Decks I Play
EDH
RStarke of Rath chaosR
UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB
UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW
Legacy
WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW
RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW
XMUDX
Magidex, the list is tight. I rather draw into a threat instead of taking a turn to Cycle. Blue decks are hard to play against, and you need relevant cards all the time. If you're worried about digging through your deck, try Top or something. And you don't need Shrapnel Blast or Galvanic Blast when you're beating in with Lodestone/Wurmcoil/Steel Hellkite.
Question: Which Moxen should be run? And how much? If there are multiple options, how would each list accommodate? (ie Crucible with M.Diamond, etc.)
How is Staff of Domination used? Apart from combo-ing with Metalworker it's a clunky pseudo-Fog. Any other applications?
Here's my current list:
1x Blightsteel Colossus
1x Inkwell Leviathan
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
4x Wurmcoil Engine
Other Artifacts:
4x Grim Monolith
2x Lightning Greaves
2x Mox Diamond
3x Mox Opal
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Staff of Domination
4x Voltaic Key
3x Brainstorm
2x Transmute Artifact
Planeswalkers:
1x Karn Liberated
Land:
2x Academy Ruins
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
2x Island
2x Scalding Tarn
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Spine of Ish Sah
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Trinisphere
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2x All is Dust
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
The manabase still needs optimized, as I feel that the deck could really benefit from additional fetchlands (and maybe Wastelands), but I still haven't figured out exactly what to do with that yet.
I still need Fish help, I don't think I've won a single game against them. I do run Summoning Traps in the board, but is there any other tech card we can incorporate? All is Dust? Contagion Engine? Grim Poppet or Triskellion?
Also, I played against a Stony Silence/Null Rod today. That really sucked.
As for fish, I run a single contagion engine, but the matchup shouldn't be as hard as you make it out to be. The moment they run out of counter spell, you win. They have to deal with absolutely every fatty you try to play, and they just can't. Remember to play around daze, as you can afford it eaily.
-Sun Tzu
Decks I Play
EDH
RStarke of Rath chaosR
UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB
UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW
Legacy
WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW
RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW
XMUDX
4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golemn
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere
Other Artifacts:
4 Grim Monolith
4 Voltaic Key
3 Lightning Greaves
2 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Great Furnace
4 Crystal Vein
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Wasteland
4 Chalice of the void
4 Tangle Wire
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Phyrexian metamorph
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Trade List:
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What is your reasoning behind Crucible, Tangle Wire, and Ratchet Bomb? I haven't played with them before.
Have you tried Steel Hellkite? He covers the air and gets over Moat. On second thought, Hellkite could take Ratchet Bomb's place.
Crystal Vein is an interesting choice. Though it supports a strong turn 1 or 2, you lose sustainability, and sometimes that's what you need. Crystal Vein > Monolith which gets Spell Snared/Dazed/Forced puts you in a bad spot. Is Crucible + CV reliable enough to make up for this?
Black decks are tough... It's embarrassing, but t1 Thoughtseize t2 Hymn kind of sucks. It really doesn't help that the deck is inconsistent and that the deck needs to mull and draw itself out of sketchy opening hands.
-Sun Tzu
Decks I Play
EDH
RStarke of Rath chaosR
UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB
UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW
Legacy
WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW
RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW
XMUDX
Also, has anyone testing against RUG Tempo? Seeing now that it is a deck to beat, what are MUD's chances? And tips?
This list placed 8th in an SCG. I don't suggest running Karn. Also, having Top and Key in the same deck as Chalice of the void can be a problem, but this is a good start. (I guess it worked for him, top 8 is not bad.)
-Sun Tzu
Decks I Play
EDH
RStarke of Rath chaosR
UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB
UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW
Legacy
WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW
RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW
XMUDX
-I don't like Platinum Emperion. For 8 I rather cast another threat, and I never found myself tutoring for it.
-I never tried Crucible of Worlds, what is the reason for your inclusion?
-I wish I owned a fourth Wurmcoil...
-I currently play more Steel Hellkite. Thinking this through, Wurmcoil has the same effect against aggro decks. I need to figure out when it is better to have flying Ratchet Bombs vs. Lifelink. It does block Clique/Delver I guess... I don't know.
Crucible is mostly good because Wasteland lock is pretty much game against some decks.
Opening hands want to be able to put a threat out quickly. I guess you really want acceleration and two threats, in case one dies. But the deck doesn't really mulligan very well.
Replace the Emperion with either Hellkite or Battlesphere.
My current list runs 17 lands, 2 Diamonds and 3 Opals. Early game you get turn 1 Monoliths, mid game you get your Welders out, late game it fuels Welder. I'm on the fence with Diamond myself, I'll let you know when I have more results.
I feel like Crucible shenanigans are icing on top of the cake. Drop a robot and protect him, don't worry too much about other things. Also, due to the poor card filtering of this deck, you need cards that are relevant in tight spots.
A large reason as to why this deck is tier 1.5 is due to the consistency. If you have access to the deck or Magic Workstation or Cockatrice, I recommend grinding in order to figure out mulligans. Take a look at your hand and see what you can cast and cannot cast. Keep in mind that you have 1-2 turns to draw out of what you have.
Hope this helps. I don't like spewing nonsense.
2) I don't like Crucible because slow attrition by recurring wastelands is not what I think we want to be doing, that is stax/loams job. If crucible was a threat or a mana ability, or even a spellskite I think it would be more beneficial. I really don't see crucible that often anymore and I think this is the reason why.
3) I mostly see a 2/2 split of diamonds and opals, but that is really what you like best.
4) I usually see 2 Lightning Greaves because drawing more than 1 can be a problem.
5) I don't know if I'm allowed to do this but this site is really good for looking up deck lists to get a feel for what other people are doing with their numbers and what they fill their slots with. It tells the the tournament they placed in, the place they got, and gives you the deck-list. Obviously put your own twists on the decklists, but it is good for seeing what is tested and true, at least for other people.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=MUD&format=Legacy
-Sun Tzu
Decks I Play
EDH
RStarke of Rath chaosR
UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB
UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW
Legacy
WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW
RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW
XMUDX
With regards to Lightning Greaves, I really like opening with it in conjunction with either Metalworker or Forgemaster. Rarely have I lost with that opening, but for consistency's sake, I will try two Greaves and see if that helps round things out, as I already have two Spellskite in my current list.
@alex holland, I have never tried four Opals. Conceptually it seems like a scary number. I almost never want to see Opal mid to late game.
Some lists may not play Key because of the same reason of not playing four Opals; this deck needs threats. Again though, the numbers here are highly conceptual. Key isn't bad late game when you need Vigilance or a second Forgemaster activation I guess, but I rarely find it revolutionary to draw one turns five and later.
I run a singleton Spine. If I drop him early game I usually hit a land. Otherwise, I've had to tutor it up to destroy cards like Moat and Jace. As you mentioned, Metalworker+Goblin Welder+Spine is good in some situations. I am confident in Spine's inclusion, but I would be willing to take him out if there is a better approach.
@alex: never go 4 opals, legendary rule and not wanting it mid-late game says no...
Key is usually not played in the lists that run Chalice of the Void, because more than 90% of the time chalice will be set at 1, and key drawn after that is a dead card, which our deck cannot afford. You don't run chalice so it's of course a great card for you. That being said though, I really like Chalice of the void as it stops almost all removal against us, as well as other juicy things like brainstorm, and duress.
Spine as a singleton is a good choice, we cant beat Ensnaring Bridge without it, or Karn, and Karn cannot be tutored like spine can. I suggest running it at least side, if not in the main.
-Sun Tzu
Decks I Play
EDH
RStarke of Rath chaosR
UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB
UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW
Legacy
WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW
RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW
XMUDX
You can get some comments on Copper Gnomes on page four of the thread.
@MoT_Pestilence
Thanks for the justification, I added an Angel into my current list. It seems like more people prefer Emperion, any idea why? Though the Angel has a smaller body I like the evasion.
Angel lets you get put in a position whereby you're about to lose the game (Ex: negative life total) at that point, they need only remove the angel to finish you off. That means they can be chipping away at your life total while the angel is out, and it won't have an effect until they attempt to finish you. Emperion prevents this by not allowing your life total to change, plus has a much larger body to contend with. If I'm worrying about being killed by brain freeze/high tide, other mill combo like leyline/helm or painter/stone, or I'm facing an auto-win/lose like hive mind, I'd rather have the Angel since it'll stop you from losing in those situations, but for anything else I'd rather have the emperion.
At the end of the day, most likely they'll both bite it to a simple removal spell and the whole discussion will be irrelevant, but for the time being I'll prefer emperion, unless I'm facing heavy combo.
It's hard to evaluate a creature when you're taking the "does it pass the StP test" approach.
From experience, combo can only deal with Chalice/Lodestone/Spheres with Rebuild. They need to get off the turn they cast it, so I feel like whichever Platinum is on the field is irrelevant. MUD needs spheres and clocks to beat combo. Perhaps there will be an opportunity to tutor for something in a pinch.
I feel stupid for answering part of my own question, but I still need to figure out which Platinum is better against Aggro and or Control.
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So I ran into a few match ups recently.
Apparently turn one Goblin Lackey is hard to beat.
Still having troubles with Stoneblade-esque decks. StP, Batterskull, Jace, fliers? No thank you.
Anyway, I don't know who's in charge of running threads, but is there some way I can post some match up information somewhere? I would like to start documenting them somehow.
Speaking of which, what are some of MUD's positive match ups? I can think of High Tide or Zoo (but mostly postboard...) Someone remind me why I play this deck please?
-Sun Tzu
Decks I Play
EDH
RStarke of Rath chaosR
UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB
UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW
Legacy
WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW
RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW
XMUDX