I thought about Final Fortune-esque effects but the problem is you don't usually gain much from an untap phase.
I just picked up the Pact list againthat I used in the sample hands. I haven't played magic in like 3 weeks cause I was on vaca. But then this happened while I was testing PSI on the draw (where you can mulligan more aggressively because you get an extra card).
Mulligan no initial mana 7 into, no business 6 into, no business 5, into no initial mana 4, into:
Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Infernal Contract
Draw: Land Grant
Land Grant--> Bayou, Dark Ritual x2, Infernal Contract
Draw 4: Summoner's Pact, Culling the Weak, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Contract
Summoner's Pact-->Odious Trow, Culling the Weak, Infernal Contract
Draw 4: Cabal Ritual, Slithermuse, Summoner's Pact, Infernal Contract
Summoner's Pact--> ESG, Cabal Ritual, Infernal Contract
Draw 4: Eternal Witness, Tendrils of Agony, Land Grant, Cabal Ritual
Cabal Ritual, Land Grant, Tendrils of Agony for 28
I don't think I've ever done something that profoundly amazing with SI. Mull to 3, win turn 1 on the draw.
In other news, I'm also testing this board ATM:
x4 Xantid Swarm/Autumn's Veil
x3 Duress
x4 Carpet of Flowers
x2 Tomb of Urami
x2 Goblin Charbelcher
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The deck has no trouble resolving Belcher, or IT--> Belcher. Basically, you either resolve an early Belcher, or an early Carpet of Flowers. Either one usually leaves you in a great situation. You can setup smaller chains and exploit control's slower clock. Carpet enables you to resolve Belchers through countermagic by baiting with D4's. The other option is if your opponent decides to dig for STP's to disable your Xantid Swarm plan, then you can break Tombs and swing an unprotected opponent. Those 2 dynamics mix well with the Tendrils plan because the opponent doesn't really know how easily the deck can get to 10 storm after the board slows it down. With resources like Carpet of Flowers the deck can get the same length of spell chain, but it takes more turns to setup. I'm thinking more toward Veil at the moment because I can use it as anti-countermagic while going off, or as a Chant before IT. Additionally, unlike Swarm, it needs to wait a turn to protect. Veil works the turn you are going off, which is great if you want to protect an IT. If I ran Veil though, I would free up the Tomb of Urami plan from the options. Sometimes you have unused LEDs by the end of the game because you didn't draw IT. I like having Tomb as another card to interact with LED. I'm not sure yet what I would add in its place, but I like the idea of Birds of Paradise. This deck can get pretty mana hungry if you have to keep drawing resources to go off. It would also provide a Culling the Weak outlet for bad situations.
Any thoughts on the board? Thats what the deck really lacks right now.
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I can't say I've had any experience doing anything other than solitaire, so I don't know how it should work against Blue.
If we're seriously devoting our entire sideboard to blue, in what ways are we shoring up the matchup? I understand everything except the Charbelcher and the Tomb of Urami, because the protection spells should be enough to ensure that the win-conditions the deck started out with resolve, right?
I like Autumn's Veil better than Xantid Swarm. Swarm needs to resolve and not get removed before it starts protecting. Like you said, you get the Chant effect or a counterspell, basically--Like, I haven't played with the card before, but I'm getting more and more excited to play with the card as I talk about it. I just suppose I don't know what you side out to side in your entire sideboard.
In other news, I'm also testing this board ATM:
x4 Xantid Swarm
x3 Duress
x4 Carpet of Flowers
x2 Tomb of Urami
x2 Goblin Charbelcher
This board is amazing. Just tested it against New Horizons about 5 full matches. I won 3 of them, and every game I lost, without exception, was a very close game. A few of those games were just to Belcher misfires as well so there was a little bad luck in that case. Then again, boarding in 2 lands doesn't necessarily increase your chances of getting a good Belch. In that case, I might switch those Tombs to Birds of Paradise. Both act as an initial B, even if its a turn slower, while providing Culling fodder and a potential chump blocker. After learning how to manipulate this list, I'm getting turn 3-5 protected kills consistently. I goldfished it for a while in addition to playing these games, trying to play through 1 countermagic. It can. I'm very happy with the maindeck as well, same one I've been playing:
PSI
Business
1 Slithermuse
2 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
Mana
1 Eternal Witness
1 Odious Trow
2 Manamorphose
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
This is how I'm boarding out:
-4 Summoner's Pact
-3 Tendrils of Agony
-2 Manamorphose
-1 Land Grant
-1 Dryad Arbor
-1 Slithermuse
-1 Odious Trow
-1 Eternal Witness
-1 Culling the Weak
(-15)
+15 board vs. U.dec
It works so well that I might just start playing this over Solidarity. I've always loved the Merfolk matchup, where Tomb of Urami is even better. I'd imagine that the Merfolk matchup would be even better than the New Horizons matchup because the usual builds don't have an answer for Xantid Swarm or Tomb. In short, I'm very satisfied and I highly suggest anyone who is playing the Pact list to test this SB ASAP, cause its seriously tearing ☺☺☺☺ up right now. Its even difficult to play against when you know what the opponent is playing. You might think, I'll play mana denial, and then the opponent is just sitting on a lot of mana, while sometimes you think, I'll counter the business and then your opponent has heavy business. After I explained it to my friend on New Horizons, he still wasn't sure what to counter, and it was often the wrong thing just because I know how to bait out what he should counter that way I can play my hand on my terms.
I can't say I've had any experience doing anything other than solitaire, so I don't know how it should work against Blue.
If we're seriously devoting our entire sideboard to blue, in what ways are we shoring up the matchup? I understand everything except the Charbelcher and the Tomb of Urami, because the protection spells should be enough to ensure that the win-conditions the deck started out with resolve, right?
I like Autumn's Veil better than Xantid Swarm. Swarm needs to resolve and not get removed before it starts protecting. Like you said, you get the Chant effect or a counterspell, basically--Like, I haven't played with the card before, but I'm getting more and more excited to play with the card as I talk about it. I just suppose I don't know what you side out to side in your entire sideboard.
Given the results I just got from a little testing, this board works extremely well. Basically, you just keep baiting the opponent out with D4's until you can either get one off, or resolve Belcher. The problem is that the control opponent can't counter everything and he doesn't always know the best thing to counter. If he counters the initial mana source like Chrome Mox, then he might lose to a resolved Carpet of Flowers. If you counter Carpet, then your opponent can just storm off and win. If he waits for the business, then the SI player can just overwhelm the control player with tons of mana.
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any of the blue capable lists consider standstill? it seems like either counter bait or something that could juice your hand in response to a counterspell to give you wiggle room to recover
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STANDARD
U/B kontroll
U/W Kontroll
:symb::symu::symg: In A :symr::symu::symg:
EXTENDED
Jund's second rampage! :symb::symr::symg:
Standstill is unplayable in SI. Think about it. Against control, they will just sit back behind it and beat you with Factories, or drop creatures with Vial. Against aggro, its a crutch that you shouldn't need, and your opponent likely has a 1 drop. If I wanted something like that in QSI I would run Idea's Unbound, but that is much better in DD piles than it is in SI.
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ideas, unbound seems pretty good, Im just gonna have to practice with this deck moar, with Fish finishing 1st at columbus it seems likely that Ill have to deal with it moar and its counterspells are a weekness for this deck
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U/B kontroll
U/W Kontroll
:symb::symu::symg: In A :symr::symu::symg:
EXTENDED
Jund's second rampage! :symb::symr::symg:
Seriously my post-board plan for PSI is extremely good right now. I'd suggest you try it. I've been testing post-board exclusively playing through 1 counterspell and I can win consistently by turn 6 through 1 FoW. My good hands beat aggro control's good hands, while my medium hands beat his meduium hands. Even his good hands vs. my medium hands are really close games.
EDIT:
To be clear, countermagic is the weakness of any combo deck. The difficult matchups are the ones in which you have to deal with bears + countermagic. Countermagic won't stop you completely. Its only delaying the inevitable unless you can back it up with a fast clock or a bear, namely Gaddock Teeg. The difference here is that SI has a huge threat density. It explodes out of nothing. This post-board plan is strong because it allows you to utilize these spells as bomb turn 1 plays:
Carpet of Flowers
Duress
Xantid Swarm
Dark Ritual
As long as you have 1 of those in your opening hand, you have a strong 1st turn play. The best hands are the ones that utilize both, or bait with 1. Sometimes I'll protect a Carpet with Duress, other times, I'll protect a Dark Ritual by drawing the FoW with Xantid Swarm. The best part is the opponent doesn't know your hand so you can trick them into countering the wrong thing.
I'm trying out the list marit posted, because I definitely spent all day getting killed by my pacts. Would playing Kobolds over Phyrexian Walkers be a bad idea? Basically, how many 2x creatures are out there to make Phyrexian Walker effective?
Walker can block small stuff. Lackey's, Kird Apes, smaller Nacatal's, most goblins, etc. It was a great strategy before the mad power creep of Zoo. Now its somewhat out dated. Kobolds is a play style call. Do you play Burning Wish? And if you do, are you finding that you would rather imprint a Kobold on it?
I like the pact list because you can 'imprint' the creature to produce black off Chrome Mox, you can use it to add mana, or you it to find a creature.. AND it double as a business spell from time to time if you make the Eternal Witness line of play, which has been happening a lot to me lately. In short, I think Pacts are just straight up better than tallmen. They are just a little bit harder to use. Dying from Pacts is usually a balls to the wall, all in hand anyway. You don't always need to make those, especially now that I've finally developed a decent boarding strategy against U.dec
I'm seriously thinking about just posting some vids so people can learn the list. I'm still optimizing the board tho.
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Seriously my post-board plan for PSI is extremely good right now. I'd suggest you try it. I've been testing post-board exclusively playing through 1 counterspell and I can win consistently by turn 6 through 1 FoW
Is winning by turn 6 through 1 FoW really that impressive? Don't forget they'll be cantripping for more counters, and beating face with goyf, it's even worse if you've used a draw4 and lost half your life. Also, what's your exact SB plan? What combo pieces do you side out to bring in the anti-blue cards? SI is a very dense deck. Also, although the deck is pretty rogue, it's not very hard to play against. The second a control player sees a Draw4 it will be countered if they have one, +3 card advantage has a huge bullseye on it. In all the tournaments I played in, no one ever countered a ritual, it was always a business spell like a draw4, IGG, belcher, etc.
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I'm trying out the list marit posted, because I definitely spent all day getting killed by my pacts. Would playing Kobolds over Phyrexian Walkers be a bad idea? Basically, how many 2x creatures are out there to make Phyrexian Walker effective?
This question is brought up a lot, personally I don't believe Kobolds are a good choice. In all my goldfishing there is rarely a time where one extra R from a chrome mox would really benefit. More common is drawing all my tall men with no rituals, and when I'm at 10 life staring down Kird Ape's, Lavamancers, various goblins etc, a 0/1 kobold seems kinda weak.
New Horizon's clock is slower as hell. The problem is that they are so busy cantripping for FoW that they can't grab creatures. They also don't want to play too many Islands or they will be over powered by Carpet of Flowers. Its a really tricky matchup for both sides but I've become very familiar with it. Keep in mind, winning by turn 6 through FoW consistently. On my first Belch, I like to target my opponent's beater because he usually only has 1. Then I can just put the land on the bottom and Belch for lethal on the following turn. Laying down my game winning threat on turn 5 works. They usually land a creature on turn 3/4 because KoTR costs 3 and Terravore is usually too small to actually do damage. If the D4's resolve then I'm usually drawing so much resources that I can kill my opponent, if he counters the D4's then I'm free to play Belcher. Its really a lose/lose situation for New Horizons if they expect to win only by playing one dude and swinging in FoW protected. It doesn't work. They need EE or MM in that mix for it to even be a fair fight. You might think my clock is much shorter because of the D4's. That actually hasn't been an issue yet. If the D4's start resolving, that usually means the opponent can't counter them, which means you can chain them together into a longer spell chain, though usually post-board I'll just play 1 D4, play Duress and Carpet of Flowers, and then pass the turn, and win on the next. New Horizons can't really deal 10 damage in one turn, especially if it takes until turn 3 for them to drop a creature, which has usually been the case.
Also, I find that with this post-board plan, I rarely mulligan. Its dam consistent.
This is the boarding plan:
-4 Summoner's Pact
-3 Tendrils of Agony
-2 Manamorphose
-1 Land Grant
-1 Dryad Arbor
-1 Slithermuse
-1 Odious Trow
-1 Eternal Witness
-1 Culling the Weak
(-15)
+15 board vs. U.dec
SB
x4 Xantid Swarm/Autumn's Veil
x3 Duress
x4 Carpet of Flowers
x2 Tomb of Urami
x2 Goblin Charbelcher
I'm playing the same maindeck that I've been playing.
I disagree. SI isn't necessarily easy to play against. People don't even know what it is. Most players think its storm combo til Belcher shows up. Honestly, Belcher has won me more games than ToA, but most don't even know I run it. The other half of people just think its Belcher and expect EtW all the time.
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I don't really understand boarding in extra lands AND more belchers, seems like it should be one or the other to me. Is it really that good to be worth the extra inconsistency? I think those slots should be another duress and either a cabal therapy or a pact of negation
Lands give you more starting mana sources. Those are necessary if you want to keep laying down threats. Usually SI doesn't need them because its busy resolving one long spell chain. In this case, your spell chains will be short, or just a D4 into more resources. The idea post-board is to differentiate your means of attack as much as possible as to throw the opponent off and make them fold under pressure. If they see a Tomb of Urami, they will probably try to dig for STP putting you on a man plan. If they counter D4's, then you can just land a protected Belcher while they beat your face. If they let the D4's resolve, then you keep acquiring resources and just overwhelm your opponent with drawn protection spells like Xantid Swarm and Duress, and eventually land a Belcher. The extra land are not necessarily an optimized slot. I like them though. When my opponent wastes his STP on Xantid, I can go for Tomb as a back up plan, further utilizing my LEDs. Now LEDs interact with IT, Tomb, and Belcher, making them a more useful draw. Additionally, there is the potential for encountering Wasteland so I like having the extra land just in case.
Don't think of it as resolving 1 long spell chain because that probably won't happen. Its likely you will have to play around at least 1 FoW. Usually you have a double threat opening hand. Either, protection spell + D4, protection + Carpet, or Carpet + D4. Any combination of those usually seals the deal unless the opponent also draws something liek FoW + EE, or FoW + MM, or FoW + FoW.
Does that make sense? Or should I explain it further?
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Well here is the problem with more protection. You have to keep in mind that more is in the deck, so you are going to draw more. When your deck is full of protection instead of business you will find your spell chain stopping short before you can finish it quite often. I opt to play Belchers because I know its going to be difficult to protect a long spell chain effectively while also providing the resources to make that spell chain long enough to support Tendrils. I prefer slow playing it and taking multiple shots at a winning than going all in.
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Theory:
- Stores mana. Exploiting each turn of resusable resources as much as possible. Makes playing/activating Belcher much easier.
- Swings. If you can get Carpet going, you get more damage as you store mana. 2 mana each turn is reasonable; a turn 4 clock.
- Huge Blocker. Decks like Merfolk need lords to deal damage while you are setting up. Swinging in with a few small guys isn't going to get there, which gives you lots of time to set up. The same can be said of New Horizons, which usually will be beating with only 1 or 2 creatures at a time.
- Mana denial protection. Spell Pierce and Daze become less relevant with all the spare mana to be had. Wasteland becomes more relevant to turn off the lands from producing said mana.
- LED. Omnath's clock can get significantly faster with spare mana.
- Xantid Swarm. Omnath is a must remove threat. It can beat your opponent's face or help you set up and ignore mana denial. Xantid Swarms become greater threats because they could be STP bait to protect an Omnath, or vice versa.
- Culling Fodder. For the combo turn.
- Trinisphere. It certainly doesn't help you play around it completely but would provide a body to smash face and make the Stax player frugal with his Tombs. It also builds up spare mana to convert to Black so you can use your D4's or IT to find Belcher.
If it works how I expect it to work, then it interacts perfectly with the current post-board plan that I'm testing.
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I run one Time Reversal in my PSI list. I really like my mainboard list right now. I haven't worked out my sideboard, but I will start to think about it. It will probably include Xantid Swarms.
Time Reversal is awesome if you cast it and have some LED's to crack in response. Start over with a healthy storm count and free mana? Yes please. It also is great if i have it along with Slithermuse and Chrome Mox. It lets me get blue with Chrome Mox for the Slithermuse. The 1 of Plunge into Darkness is experimental, but it has saved me countless times. A lot of times it's practically a Demonic Tutor. It also gives me more life if i have extra creatures on the field from a failed storm, or because i just casted witness. I also find myself hardcasting Slithermuse, then Plunge Into Darkness to sac it for life, crack LED in response, Get mana, Gain your life back from using your D4s, draw 5-7 cards, and have more life to use more D4s.
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Time Reversal is probably incredibly weak because both players shuffle up and draw 7. That gives the blue opponent a chance to draw one of their 4 Forces or any other answers to stop your storm. Slithermuse just seems stronger.
It seems that this can claim a 60% turn 1 win and an extremely high turn 2 win, this is faster than vintage ANT combo normally goes off so this seems extremely unlikely to be the actual case. I did read the opening post but it just seems unlikely that this deck is not completely dominating the meta when your opponent is supposedly required to have force of will to have a shot at winning (the numbers are in your favor no matter what). I am not claiming the deck cannot pull off such quick kills, but it just seems like the primer may be padded.
I tested the PSI list from the first post and replaced Cabal Therapy with other cards simply to increase speed (assuming no force) and noticed that i did not get a turn 1 kill nearly as often as advertised, even going back and replaying every possible decision tree.
Here are some sample hands that i'm working with in MWS right now, i will show you what i reveal and what cards came up when fizzling:
This is the list i'm using is the PSI list on the first page that claimed a 60-65% win rate on turn 1. Mulligan only if the initial hand has no chance to win turn 1 or the chance would be extremely poor, if you can draw cards and get decent storm with the hand, i will not go into detail about the mulligan since you shouldn't be mulliganing that hand anyways.
Also impossible to win with this hand, you cannot cast diabolic intent (which you need in order to get more storm) and casting dark ritual accomplishes nothing. Mulligan
Now this hand has potential, summoner's pact for ESG, it +catacombs to cast Infernal Tutor saccing LED in response, that's our entire hand and we will go and get cruel bargain or infernal contract to draw 4 more cards. Storm 4, 9 life. (i got infernal contract, not that it matters which you pick)
Okay this hand is useable, first exile one spirit guide for G (we might need to cast the other one later, and there's no point in exiling the second yet). Cast Xantid Swarm, lotus petal, culling the weak sacrificing xantid swarm, add BBBB to mana pool, cruel bargain 4 more cards. Storm 4, 10 life B in mana pool.
Alright we can continue, play lotus petal, use the floating black to cast dark ritual. Storm 6, BBB in mana pool. Exile one elvish spirit guide, GBBB floating. Use BBG to cast elvish spirit guide from hand, sacrifice lotus petal for any color of mana, use the remaining mana in our pool to cast Diabolic Intent sacrificing elvish spirit guide. Storm 8, no mana in pool, Culling the Weak in hand. At this point, there is nothing you can pull from the deck that will get you a win, so this decision tree fizzled. Going back to the last decision (Storm 6, BBB in mana pool, ESGx2, Culling, Diabolic Intent in hand):
If you decide to cull the weak instead of diabolic tutor, you will find yourself with no way to draw more cards either and without any cards that give you more cards in hand. This game also fizzles. You could mulligan the original hand i guess, but in reality i doubt you would since it is fairly solid.
Sac verdant catacombs for your bayou (currently the only play, you could fetch dryad arbor but find yourself on a total fizzle). Dark ritual, BBB in pool, storm 1, cast cruel bargain. 9 life, Storm 2, no mana in pool.
At this point we have 2 options on how to proceed, we can either cast xantid swarm by exiling ESG, or use summoner's pact to slightly thin our deck and get another spirit guide (but we lose out on being able to tutor up eternal witness or another xantid swarm). I'll do it with the one we have in hand first, then the other one later. we MUST exile cruel bargain or infernal contract with chrome mox though or we cannot draw more cards with the other.
ESG path:
Exile ESG, cast xantid swarm, chrome mox exiling cruel bargain, storm 4. culling the weak saccing xantid swarm, cast infernal tutor. B in pool, 4 life, sltihermuse and summoner's pact in hand, Storm 6.
Cast LED and lotus petal, storm 8 (we will definitely have lethal now). Our only options to get a creature in play are hardcasting slithermuse, or tutoring up a xantid swarm. Xantid swarm is the proper play though since he's the cheapest. Anyways, use the floating black to cast dark ritual, BBB in pool. Sac lotus petal for G, summoner's pact for xantid swarm, cast swarm. Sac swarm to diabolic intent (B should be floating). Crack LED while you have priority and diabolic intent is on the stack, search up tendrils and you have super lethal storm. This game did not fizzle so we don't have to try doing it the other way.
Wow i think i haven't had a hand without xantid swarm in it yet, anyways, this hand cannot win turn 1 either due to lack of drawing capability (slithermuse would be an option but we have no way to make blue). Mulligan again.
Wow this hand is godly for only 5 cards. Bayou, LED, Petal, cabal ritual saccing petal, cruel bargain, sac LED while it's on the stack. BBB in pool, 10 life, no cards in hand, yet! Storm 4.
Wow talk about hands! Okay what you need to do here is cast both LEDs, cast infernal tutor, cast summoner's pact while you retain priority, then sac both LED's in response for BBB and GGG respectively. The best card to get is probably eternal witness, but it really doesn't matter since you will have a game winner here anyways. Get any creature, search up tendrils, cast the creature, tendrils after casting the creature and you will have lethal storm.
This game did not fizzle, but you kind of got nutsy draws seeing 3 LEDs like that.
This is a pretty good hand, cast both petals, play verdant catacombs, and then it's decision tree time. You can tutor up dryad arbor and sac it to culling with a petal, but this prevents you from using a bayou for an extra B if you want it. The two best choices here are to either search up dryad arbor or find an ESG with pact, cast culling on the xantid swarm, then then save your bayou for later. I'll do the dryad arbor version first since i believe we will want our pact for later. Storm is currently 2.
Dryad Arbor Path
Sac catacombs to find arbor, sac petal for B, cast culling saccing arbor for BBBB, cast cruel bargain. Storm 3, 9 life.
Pretty good haul, cast all the 0facts (exile xantid swarm for chrome mox). Storm 6, B in pool. Summoner's pact for xantid swarm, cast xantid swarm with chrome mox, infernal tutor up tendrils and win with storm 9.
While it's possible to win with this hand, it's not likely, but the top 4 show promise so i'll do it anyways. You know the drill, don't do anything with pact or ESG yet. Storm 3, empty pool, 10 life.
Only options are to search up xantid swarm or dryad arbor. xantid swarm is better if we draw into a land and it increases storm, while dryad arbor does not. I will do dryad arbor version first.
Dryad Arbor Path
Search up arbor, RFG infernal tutor to chrome mox, sac arbor to culling, cast cruel with B floating and 5 life, storm 7.
You can't win with that hand no matter how hard you try, you just can't hit lethal storm if you exile ESG, but you have nothing else to get storm to 9, you're stuck at storm 8.
Assuming you draw those same 4 cards off the xantid swarm play you CAN win the game because storm is 8 going into it. You could try doing math to see which is a better play assuming no knowledge of what you will draw like i knew, but this one is iffy. I would personally throw this one out as both options are decent choices, but i still think dryad arbor is better since you are more likely to draw into summoner's pact or xantid swarm at that point than you are a land, and dryad arbor is the superior option in that selection as searching up xantid swarm requires you to get both dark/cabal ritual AND a land. I think math is on the side of arbor, but i'll throw this one out as a neutral test.
Only option is to exile either infernal contract or infernal tutor to dark ritual into infernal contract, infernal contract is a better card to exile if you think you can draw LED off those 4 cards. Otherwise, it's probably better to exile infernal tutor and hope to draw 4 more cards (potentially one of them being infernal tutor). Although, this lessens your chances at finding that singleton tendrils. Both are reasonable and i don't want to do the math to find out which is better. Both give storm 3, 10 life, and no mana in pool.
simply put, this hand cannot win, as you can't make black. also, those same 4 cards are just as useless if we had exiled tutor instead, so there's no need to test it, both fizzle.
Searching up ESG gives us more options than the off-chance we get a culling, so searching up that is the best option. Otherwise, search up dryad arbor. I'll do ESG first. Storm 4 getting there (don't exile for chrome mox).
Wow that's a perfect hand, you win no matter what you chose to do before this.
Okay since i have done so many, i will personally test but not write down which games were winnable and which were not. If you feel my play-ability showed falters in the previous games, then please tell me, it makes this "experiment" meaningless.
Game 10: Fizzle, but storm was high and i had a lot of mana, just couldn't find tendrils
Game 11: Fizzle, found tendrils this time, but could not get enough mana
Game 12: Fizzle, but this one was interesting. eternal witness recurred cruel bargain, but there wasn't anything to keep the combo going and i had a way to get tendrils but no way to cast it.
Game 13: Fizzle. Mulled to 3, but either lacked ways to draw cards, or ways to accelerate mana
Game 14: Storm 8!!! infernal tutor+tendrils in hand at storm 7 but no way to get another spell for free.
Game 15: Kill via slithermuse
Game 16: Kill, although i may have added an extra mana with culling, i don't think i did that though.
Game 17: Fizzle, but very close, needed an infernal tutor and i would have won.
Game 18: Fizzled. Mulled to 4, could not win.
Game 19: Fizzled, really bad draw off of a cruel.
Game 20: Sooooo close, 3 draw 4 effects but the third didn't get what i had been goldfishing for.
So all in all, there were 6 wins out of 19 total games (i'm ignoring the neutral one). This works out to about a 31% win rate on turn 1 assuming they did not go first and do not have force of will in their hand. Obviously the sample is small, but more tests can be run. This is supposed to be the fastest possible SI deck and have a win ratio of over 60% turn 1 wins.
In hand 1 section where you went to get infernal contract with IT....you should definitely get slithermuse there as you draw 3 more cards giving you a much better chance of going off.
SI and all its variants are very hard to pilot optimally. You need to practice goldfishing the deck a lot to learn it inside and out. Also if you read all the pages of this thread vacrix has updated his list from the one in the OP. I believe the last update was last page? But yeah an optimal list would help.
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I just picked up the Pact list againthat I used in the sample hands. I haven't played magic in like 3 weeks cause I was on vaca. But then this happened while I was testing PSI on the draw (where you can mulligan more aggressively because you get an extra card).
Mulligan no initial mana 7 into, no business 6 into, no business 5, into no initial mana 4, into:
Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Infernal Contract
Draw: Land Grant
Land Grant--> Bayou, Dark Ritual x2, Infernal Contract
Draw 4: Summoner's Pact, Culling the Weak, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Contract
Summoner's Pact-->Odious Trow, Culling the Weak, Infernal Contract
Draw 4: Cabal Ritual, Slithermuse, Summoner's Pact, Infernal Contract
Summoner's Pact--> ESG, Cabal Ritual, Infernal Contract
Draw 4: Eternal Witness, Tendrils of Agony, Land Grant, Cabal Ritual
Cabal Ritual, Land Grant, Tendrils of Agony for 28
I don't think I've ever done something that profoundly amazing with SI. Mull to 3, win turn 1 on the draw.
In other news, I'm also testing this board ATM:
x4 Xantid Swarm/Autumn's Veil
x3 Duress
x4 Carpet of Flowers
x2 Tomb of Urami
x2 Goblin Charbelcher
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The Pact list is fast enough that you don't really need to board against anything else.
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Yeah, but why Charbelcher?
Any thoughts on the board? Thats what the deck really lacks right now.
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If we're seriously devoting our entire sideboard to blue, in what ways are we shoring up the matchup? I understand everything except the Charbelcher and the Tomb of Urami, because the protection spells should be enough to ensure that the win-conditions the deck started out with resolve, right?
I like Autumn's Veil better than Xantid Swarm. Swarm needs to resolve and not get removed before it starts protecting. Like you said, you get the Chant effect or a counterspell, basically--Like, I haven't played with the card before, but I'm getting more and more excited to play with the card as I talk about it. I just suppose I don't know what you side out to side in your entire sideboard.
This board is amazing. Just tested it against New Horizons about 5 full matches. I won 3 of them, and every game I lost, without exception, was a very close game. A few of those games were just to Belcher misfires as well so there was a little bad luck in that case. Then again, boarding in 2 lands doesn't necessarily increase your chances of getting a good Belch. In that case, I might switch those Tombs to Birds of Paradise. Both act as an initial B, even if its a turn slower, while providing Culling fodder and a potential chump blocker. After learning how to manipulate this list, I'm getting turn 3-5 protected kills consistently. I goldfished it for a while in addition to playing these games, trying to play through 1 countermagic. It can. I'm very happy with the maindeck as well, same one I've been playing:
This is how I'm boarding out:
-4 Summoner's Pact
-3 Tendrils of Agony
-2 Manamorphose
-1 Land Grant
-1 Dryad Arbor
-1 Slithermuse
-1 Odious Trow
-1 Eternal Witness
-1 Culling the Weak
(-15)
+15 board vs. U.dec
It works so well that I might just start playing this over Solidarity. I've always loved the Merfolk matchup, where Tomb of Urami is even better. I'd imagine that the Merfolk matchup would be even better than the New Horizons matchup because the usual builds don't have an answer for Xantid Swarm or Tomb. In short, I'm very satisfied and I highly suggest anyone who is playing the Pact list to test this SB ASAP, cause its seriously tearing ☺☺☺☺ up right now. Its even difficult to play against when you know what the opponent is playing. You might think, I'll play mana denial, and then the opponent is just sitting on a lot of mana, while sometimes you think, I'll counter the business and then your opponent has heavy business. After I explained it to my friend on New Horizons, he still wasn't sure what to counter, and it was often the wrong thing just because I know how to bait out what he should counter that way I can play my hand on my terms.
Given the results I just got from a little testing, this board works extremely well. Basically, you just keep baiting the opponent out with D4's until you can either get one off, or resolve Belcher. The problem is that the control opponent can't counter everything and he doesn't always know the best thing to counter. If he counters the initial mana source like Chrome Mox, then he might lose to a resolved Carpet of Flowers. If you counter Carpet, then your opponent can just storm off and win. If he waits for the business, then the SI player can just overwhelm the control player with tons of mana.
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U/B kontroll
U/W Kontroll
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U/B kontroll
U/W Kontroll
:symb::symu::symg: In A :symr::symu::symg:
EXTENDED
Jund's second rampage! :symb::symr::symg:
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EDIT:
To be clear, countermagic is the weakness of any combo deck. The difficult matchups are the ones in which you have to deal with bears + countermagic. Countermagic won't stop you completely. Its only delaying the inevitable unless you can back it up with a fast clock or a bear, namely Gaddock Teeg. The difference here is that SI has a huge threat density. It explodes out of nothing. This post-board plan is strong because it allows you to utilize these spells as bomb turn 1 plays:
Carpet of Flowers
Duress
Xantid Swarm
Dark Ritual
As long as you have 1 of those in your opening hand, you have a strong 1st turn play. The best hands are the ones that utilize both, or bait with 1. Sometimes I'll protect a Carpet with Duress, other times, I'll protect a Dark Ritual by drawing the FoW with Xantid Swarm. The best part is the opponent doesn't know your hand so you can trick them into countering the wrong thing.
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I like the pact list because you can 'imprint' the creature to produce black off Chrome Mox, you can use it to add mana, or you it to find a creature.. AND it double as a business spell from time to time if you make the Eternal Witness line of play, which has been happening a lot to me lately. In short, I think Pacts are just straight up better than tallmen. They are just a little bit harder to use. Dying from Pacts is usually a balls to the wall, all in hand anyway. You don't always need to make those, especially now that I've finally developed a decent boarding strategy against U.dec
I'm seriously thinking about just posting some vids so people can learn the list. I'm still optimizing the board tho.
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Is winning by turn 6 through 1 FoW really that impressive? Don't forget they'll be cantripping for more counters, and beating face with goyf, it's even worse if you've used a draw4 and lost half your life. Also, what's your exact SB plan? What combo pieces do you side out to bring in the anti-blue cards? SI is a very dense deck. Also, although the deck is pretty rogue, it's not very hard to play against. The second a control player sees a Draw4 it will be countered if they have one, +3 card advantage has a huge bullseye on it. In all the tournaments I played in, no one ever countered a ritual, it was always a business spell like a draw4, IGG, belcher, etc.
This question is brought up a lot, personally I don't believe Kobolds are a good choice. In all my goldfishing there is rarely a time where one extra R from a chrome mox would really benefit. More common is drawing all my tall men with no rituals, and when I'm at 10 life staring down Kird Ape's, Lavamancers, various goblins etc, a 0/1 kobold seems kinda weak.
Also, I find that with this post-board plan, I rarely mulligan. Its dam consistent.
This is the boarding plan:
-4 Summoner's Pact
-3 Tendrils of Agony
-2 Manamorphose
-1 Land Grant
-1 Dryad Arbor
-1 Slithermuse
-1 Odious Trow
-1 Eternal Witness
-1 Culling the Weak
(-15)
+15 board vs. U.dec
SB
x4 Xantid Swarm/Autumn's Veil
x3 Duress
x4 Carpet of Flowers
x2 Tomb of Urami
x2 Goblin Charbelcher
I'm playing the same maindeck that I've been playing.
I disagree. SI isn't necessarily easy to play against. People don't even know what it is. Most players think its storm combo til Belcher shows up. Honestly, Belcher has won me more games than ToA, but most don't even know I run it. The other half of people just think its Belcher and expect EtW all the time.
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Don't think of it as resolving 1 long spell chain because that probably won't happen. Its likely you will have to play around at least 1 FoW. Usually you have a double threat opening hand. Either, protection spell + D4, protection + Carpet, or Carpet + D4. Any combination of those usually seals the deal unless the opponent also draws something liek FoW + EE, or FoW + MM, or FoW + FoW.
Does that make sense? Or should I explain it further?
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Omnath, Locus of Mana
Theory:
- Stores mana. Exploiting each turn of resusable resources as much as possible. Makes playing/activating Belcher much easier.
- Swings. If you can get Carpet going, you get more damage as you store mana. 2 mana each turn is reasonable; a turn 4 clock.
- Huge Blocker. Decks like Merfolk need lords to deal damage while you are setting up. Swinging in with a few small guys isn't going to get there, which gives you lots of time to set up. The same can be said of New Horizons, which usually will be beating with only 1 or 2 creatures at a time.
- Mana denial protection. Spell Pierce and Daze become less relevant with all the spare mana to be had. Wasteland becomes more relevant to turn off the lands from producing said mana.
- LED. Omnath's clock can get significantly faster with spare mana.
- Xantid Swarm. Omnath is a must remove threat. It can beat your opponent's face or help you set up and ignore mana denial. Xantid Swarms become greater threats because they could be STP bait to protect an Omnath, or vice versa.
- Culling Fodder. For the combo turn.
- Trinisphere. It certainly doesn't help you play around it completely but would provide a body to smash face and make the Stax player frugal with his Tombs. It also builds up spare mana to convert to Black so you can use your D4's or IT to find Belcher.
If it works how I expect it to work, then it interacts perfectly with the current post-board plan that I'm testing.
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3 Tendrils of Agony
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Land Grant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the weak
2 Manamorphose
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Slithermuse
1 Time Reversal
1 Plunge Into Darkness
Other
2 Odious Trow
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Eternal Witness
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Xantid Swarm
12 Other things
Time Reversal is awesome if you cast it and have some LED's to crack in response. Start over with a healthy storm count and free mana? Yes please. It also is great if i have it along with Slithermuse and Chrome Mox. It lets me get blue with Chrome Mox for the Slithermuse. The 1 of Plunge into Darkness is experimental, but it has saved me countless times. A lot of times it's practically a Demonic Tutor. It also gives me more life if i have extra creatures on the field from a failed storm, or because i just casted witness. I also find myself hardcasting Slithermuse, then Plunge Into Darkness to sac it for life, crack LED in response, Get mana, Gain your life back from using your D4s, draw 5-7 cards, and have more life to use more D4s.
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It seems that this can claim a 60% turn 1 win and an extremely high turn 2 win, this is faster than vintage ANT combo normally goes off so this seems extremely unlikely to be the actual case. I did read the opening post but it just seems unlikely that this deck is not completely dominating the meta when your opponent is supposedly required to have force of will to have a shot at winning (the numbers are in your favor no matter what). I am not claiming the deck cannot pull off such quick kills, but it just seems like the primer may be padded.
I tested the PSI list from the first post and replaced Cabal Therapy with other cards simply to increase speed (assuming no force) and noticed that i did not get a turn 1 kill nearly as often as advertised, even going back and replaying every possible decision tree.
Here are some sample hands that i'm working with in MWS right now, i will show you what i reveal and what cards came up when fizzling:
This is the list i'm using is the PSI list on the first page that claimed a 60-65% win rate on turn 1. Mulligan only if the initial hand has no chance to win turn 1 or the chance would be extremely poor, if you can draw cards and get decent storm with the hand, i will not go into detail about the mulligan since you shouldn't be mulliganing that hand anyways.
Hand 1:
Bayou Verdant Catacombs Xantid Swarm Culling the Weak Cruel Bargain Chrome Mox Chrome Mox
Not possible to win t1 with this hand, mulligan.
Tendrils of Agony Diabolic Intent Xantid Swarm Dark Ritual Chrome Mox Summoner's Pact
Also impossible to win with this hand, you cannot cast diabolic intent (which you need in order to get more storm) and casting dark ritual accomplishes nothing. Mulligan
Elvish Spirit Guide Infernal Tutor Summoner's Pact Lion's Eye Diamond Verdant Catacombs
Now this hand has potential, summoner's pact for ESG, it +catacombs to cast Infernal Tutor saccing LED in response, that's our entire hand and we will go and get cruel bargain or infernal contract to draw 4 more cards. Storm 4, 9 life. (i got infernal contract, not that it matters which you pick)
Xantid Swarm Verdant Catacombs Chrome Mox Cruel Bargain
Unfortunately, this hand is completely unuseable, this game resulted in a fizzle.
Game 2
Okay this hand is useable, first exile one spirit guide for G (we might need to cast the other one later, and there's no point in exiling the second yet). Cast Xantid Swarm, lotus petal, culling the weak sacrificing xantid swarm, add BBBB to mana pool, cruel bargain 4 more cards. Storm 4, 10 life B in mana pool.
Alright we can continue, play lotus petal, use the floating black to cast dark ritual. Storm 6, BBB in mana pool. Exile one elvish spirit guide, GBBB floating. Use BBG to cast elvish spirit guide from hand, sacrifice lotus petal for any color of mana, use the remaining mana in our pool to cast Diabolic Intent sacrificing elvish spirit guide. Storm 8, no mana in pool, Culling the Weak in hand. At this point, there is nothing you can pull from the deck that will get you a win, so this decision tree fizzled. Going back to the last decision (Storm 6, BBB in mana pool, ESGx2, Culling, Diabolic Intent in hand):
If you decide to cull the weak instead of diabolic tutor, you will find yourself with no way to draw more cards either and without any cards that give you more cards in hand. This game also fizzles. You could mulligan the original hand i guess, but in reality i doubt you would since it is fairly solid.
Game 3
Sac verdant catacombs for your bayou (currently the only play, you could fetch dryad arbor but find yourself on a total fizzle). Dark ritual, BBB in pool, storm 1, cast cruel bargain. 9 life, Storm 2, no mana in pool.
At this point we have 2 options on how to proceed, we can either cast xantid swarm by exiling ESG, or use summoner's pact to slightly thin our deck and get another spirit guide (but we lose out on being able to tutor up eternal witness or another xantid swarm). I'll do it with the one we have in hand first, then the other one later. we MUST exile cruel bargain or infernal contract with chrome mox though or we cannot draw more cards with the other.
ESG path:
Exile ESG, cast xantid swarm, chrome mox exiling cruel bargain, storm 4. culling the weak saccing xantid swarm, cast infernal tutor. B in pool, 4 life, sltihermuse and summoner's pact in hand, Storm 6.
Cast LED and lotus petal, storm 8 (we will definitely have lethal now). Our only options to get a creature in play are hardcasting slithermuse, or tutoring up a xantid swarm. Xantid swarm is the proper play though since he's the cheapest. Anyways, use the floating black to cast dark ritual, BBB in pool. Sac lotus petal for G, summoner's pact for xantid swarm, cast swarm. Sac swarm to diabolic intent (B should be floating). Crack LED while you have priority and diabolic intent is on the stack, search up tendrils and you have super lethal storm. This game did not fizzle so we don't have to try doing it the other way.
Game 4
Wow we get a lot of xantid swarms. Unfortunately, it's impossible to win t1 with this hand so we mulligan.
Wow i think i haven't had a hand without xantid swarm in it yet, anyways, this hand cannot win turn 1 either due to lack of drawing capability (slithermuse would be an option but we have no way to make blue). Mulligan again.
Wow this hand is godly for only 5 cards. Bayou, LED, Petal, cabal ritual saccing petal, cruel bargain, sac LED while it's on the stack. BBB in pool, 10 life, no cards in hand, yet! Storm 4.
Wow talk about hands! Okay what you need to do here is cast both LEDs, cast infernal tutor, cast summoner's pact while you retain priority, then sac both LED's in response for BBB and GGG respectively. The best card to get is probably eternal witness, but it really doesn't matter since you will have a game winner here anyways. Get any creature, search up tendrils, cast the creature, tendrils after casting the creature and you will have lethal storm.
This game did not fizzle, but you kind of got nutsy draws seeing 3 LEDs like that.
Game 5
This is a pretty good hand, cast both petals, play verdant catacombs, and then it's decision tree time. You can tutor up dryad arbor and sac it to culling with a petal, but this prevents you from using a bayou for an extra B if you want it. The two best choices here are to either search up dryad arbor or find an ESG with pact, cast culling on the xantid swarm, then then save your bayou for later. I'll do the dryad arbor version first since i believe we will want our pact for later. Storm is currently 2.
Dryad Arbor Path
Sac catacombs to find arbor, sac petal for B, cast culling saccing arbor for BBBB, cast cruel bargain. Storm 3, 9 life.
Pretty good haul, cast all the 0facts (exile xantid swarm for chrome mox). Storm 6, B in pool. Summoner's pact for xantid swarm, cast xantid swarm with chrome mox, infernal tutor up tendrils and win with storm 9.
Game 6
This hand cannot win turn 1, but good god wtf is with getting xantid swarm? Mull to 6.
Another hand that can't win (and no xswarm!) mull to 5.
Dump your whole hand, i hope it's obvious what to do by now. Storm 4, B in pool, 10 life.
Can't win with this hand, game 7.
Game 7
While it's possible to win with this hand, it's not likely, but the top 4 show promise so i'll do it anyways. You know the drill, don't do anything with pact or ESG yet. Storm 3, empty pool, 10 life.
Only options are to search up xantid swarm or dryad arbor. xantid swarm is better if we draw into a land and it increases storm, while dryad arbor does not. I will do dryad arbor version first.
Dryad Arbor Path
Search up arbor, RFG infernal tutor to chrome mox, sac arbor to culling, cast cruel with B floating and 5 life, storm 7.
You can't win with that hand no matter how hard you try, you just can't hit lethal storm if you exile ESG, but you have nothing else to get storm to 9, you're stuck at storm 8.
Assuming you draw those same 4 cards off the xantid swarm play you CAN win the game because storm is 8 going into it. You could try doing math to see which is a better play assuming no knowledge of what you will draw like i knew, but this one is iffy. I would personally throw this one out as both options are decent choices, but i still think dryad arbor is better since you are more likely to draw into summoner's pact or xantid swarm at that point than you are a land, and dryad arbor is the superior option in that selection as searching up xantid swarm requires you to get both dark/cabal ritual AND a land. I think math is on the side of arbor, but i'll throw this one out as a neutral test.
Game 8
Only option is to exile either infernal contract or infernal tutor to dark ritual into infernal contract, infernal contract is a better card to exile if you think you can draw LED off those 4 cards. Otherwise, it's probably better to exile infernal tutor and hope to draw 4 more cards (potentially one of them being infernal tutor). Although, this lessens your chances at finding that singleton tendrils. Both are reasonable and i don't want to do the math to find out which is better. Both give storm 3, 10 life, and no mana in pool.
Exile contract first:
simply put, this hand cannot win, as you can't make black. also, those same 4 cards are just as useless if we had exiled tutor instead, so there's no need to test it, both fizzle.
Game 9
Cannot win t1 with this hand, mull to 6.
Searching up ESG gives us more options than the off-chance we get a culling, so searching up that is the best option. Otherwise, search up dryad arbor. I'll do ESG first. Storm 4 getting there (don't exile for chrome mox).
Wow that's a perfect hand, you win no matter what you chose to do before this.
Okay since i have done so many, i will personally test but not write down which games were winnable and which were not. If you feel my play-ability showed falters in the previous games, then please tell me, it makes this "experiment" meaningless.
Game 10: Fizzle, but storm was high and i had a lot of mana, just couldn't find tendrils
Game 11: Fizzle, found tendrils this time, but could not get enough mana
Game 12: Fizzle, but this one was interesting. eternal witness recurred cruel bargain, but there wasn't anything to keep the combo going and i had a way to get tendrils but no way to cast it.
Game 13: Fizzle. Mulled to 3, but either lacked ways to draw cards, or ways to accelerate mana
Game 14: Storm 8!!! infernal tutor+tendrils in hand at storm 7 but no way to get another spell for free.
Game 15: Kill via slithermuse
Game 16: Kill, although i may have added an extra mana with culling, i don't think i did that though.
Game 17: Fizzle, but very close, needed an infernal tutor and i would have won.
Game 18: Fizzled. Mulled to 4, could not win.
Game 19: Fizzled, really bad draw off of a cruel.
Game 20: Sooooo close, 3 draw 4 effects but the third didn't get what i had been goldfishing for.
So all in all, there were 6 wins out of 19 total games (i'm ignoring the neutral one). This works out to about a 31% win rate on turn 1 assuming they did not go first and do not have force of will in their hand. Obviously the sample is small, but more tests can be run. This is supposed to be the fastest possible SI deck and have a win ratio of over 60% turn 1 wins.
SI and all its variants are very hard to pilot optimally. You need to practice goldfishing the deck a lot to learn it inside and out. Also if you read all the pages of this thread vacrix has updated his list from the one in the OP. I believe the last update was last page? But yeah an optimal list would help.
Currently Playing:
Retired