I played some Spell Pierces / Flusterstorms in the board before but eventually those became the Duresses (the whole process actually went Thoughtseize -> countermagic -> Duresses). I eventually went with that for a few reasons:
1) We already have countermagic in the main, so against combo, I like diversifying the angles that we disrupt them especially since we have access to black. This keeps a single card (Defense Grid, for example) from shutting down our disruption package.
2) Hand disruption is particularly good against SnT combo, which is more popular here in the US.
3) I really like knowing what's in my opponent's hand!
So while countermagic is probably a little bit better against Burn, Duress is still very good and allows us to disrupt combo in a different way. I wouldn't fault someone for playing countermagic in those slots though.
Carpet of Flowers is pretty interesting. I'd be bringing it in primarily against the RUG Delver decks, but it seems pretty sweet if you can get it down. I'm not sure what I'd cut for it but it's certainly an intriguing idea.
Went to a 4 round mini event tonight using foodchain tonight and went 3-1. I made a lot of noob mistakes and such, but deck was a lot of fun to play. Here is a mini report and the decklist I used.
Round 1: Abzan hate bears. Game 1: This was rough. Turn 1 mother of runes. turn 2 Thalia, turn 3 Ethersworn Canonist. I got out food chain but I could not combo off because of the Mother protecting the cannonist. Lost to batterskull and hate bear beats.
Game 2: I side board in a lot of disfigures. Turn 1 I disfigure his mother or runes. I got kinda stuck on mana to wastelands. I almost turn 4-5 combo off but a random bog takes out my GY stopping me from using DRS for mana to start the combo. I go on to lose. But I did live the dream of Misdirecting a Decay targeting my food chain onto one of his creatures.
0-1
Round 2: Golbins. Game 1. I force a turn 1 vial using a grif. Goblins does what goblins do and kept coming out with a cavern of souls. At 3 life I end of turn dig through time hitting perfect Food chain and Genesis hydra to combo off. He was not convinced after I bounced all his things with me being at 3. So I started cliquing his hand into lands he tapped out.
Game 2: I sideboard in 3 disfigures, 2 golgari charms. Decay a vial, kill all the creatures. Combo off.
1-1
Round 3: Dredge. Game 1: I start on the play. I play DRS. He sighs and plays a black creature and dumps his hand into the yard. I play a 2nd DRS and eat one of the 4 dredgers in his yard. He dredges hits a narc and some other stuff, but only 1 land in play still. I keep after his yard with my shamen, while he whiffs on his next dredge as well. He loses eventually. I feel like I got pretty luck here with 2 DRS at the start. And him not hitting a bridge.
Game 2: I sideboard in 2x relic of prog and took out Misdirections. I start to draw my hand. I see Fetch, DRS, Relic, It does not matter what else I see I am keeping. I did get a force of will and a griff though. He plays a land and passes. I play a DRS and pass back, He tries to breakthrough for 1. I debate and force it. Then between relic and DRS his yard never has anything in it. He gives up when I play the 2nd relic a few turns later.
2-1
Round 4: 12 post. Game 1: I turn 1 a DRS. He plays a land. I play a manipulate fate. He has to read it. He was unclear on what this deck was. His turn 3 he casts Show and tell. He drops in monster. I drop in Tidespout tyrant. He has to read it. I cast brainstorm and bounce his creature. Good times. I untap and play food chain and combo him.
Game 2: This one was long. I boarded out my misdirections for duress. I end up with a lot of decays stuck in my hand and stuck on 2 lands for a bit. He counters my Manipulate fate with a swan song. This turned out to be a good play much later. I beat him up with my swan and clique. Getting him to 6ish. I am still not sure if this was a mistake on my part or not. I resolve a Food chain. I have no griffs in hand or exile. I could have saced out my board for a 8 point genesis hydra. I miscounted his mana thing he didn't have enough for eye of ugin and emmy, forgeting eye makes him 2 cheaper to cast. I have force in handx2. I figure I can just finish him off with what I have in play and force his next play. I get emmyed to death.
Game 3: I ditch more decays for duresses. He mulls. I keep a sketchy hand in retro spec. Fetch land, DRS, brainstorm, Duress, Griff, strix, tyrant. I duress him. He has 2 land, kozlick, crop rotation, 2 expedition maps. I take a map as he has no green to even crop rotate. Next turn I brainstorm into a 2nd land, and play DRS. He plays a top. Lucky him, he moves stuff around, but misses his 3rd land drop. I cast a strix, he tops no land, I play a griff. I get the slow beat downs on. I duress him again. He has a brainstorm, and other stuff. I take the Brainstorm. He swan songs my food chain, I beat him with my swan, grif, strix army. He repeals my DRS to not die that turn. I finish him off with beats.
3-1
I am of mixed feelings about my sideboard. It was nice. I probably made some mistakes leading to my losses in the first round. This is my first time playing combo in legacy I got to say it is fun to win out of no where. You always have hope to come back where as with alot of decks once you are behind you are just done. I will keep playing this deck for the time being it is nice and rogue. A lot of people don't know how to react to it or play against it. It was nice to finally cash in one of these weekly events. I have been struggling with jeskia delver for a while. Having less counter magic feels weird. But man, misdirection or fow with a griff to toss feels so good.
I was frustrated by the Deathrite shaman not being able to be used for mana due to lack of fetches, gyhate, or them having one of their own, to the point I considered replacing them with mana dorks later. But man did they do work against dredge... They won me that match for sure. Perhaps I will split the difference, I don't know. Over all I was happy with how the deck worked out. I didn't get a chance to use the carpent of flowers or jittes. I probably should have used the jittes against the hate bears in retrospect and maybe goblins.
I look forward to trying it out again next week. Not sure what if any changes I will make.
Oh, a tip vs Dredge when using DRS - if they have multiple Dredgers, it's usually better to wait until their draw step to eat any Narcomoebas or Ichorids that hit their yard (you can eat a Narcomoeba with its trigger on the stack). Since they tend to have a lot of redundant dredgers, eating just one at a time usually isn't very effective.
I've seen a few lists now with Shardless Agent. I know he is good but is he what this deck wants? He does not get either combo piece (most importantly Food Chain).
Edit: it does get Misthollow Griffin through Manipulate fate, so that may be the reason.
wall is a little more reliable to get out than strix, but I think strix is better? There aren't too many fliers in the format to deal with, but it does some good stuff (like block emrakul ) I'm testing agent, and it's not that super. It's kinda cool that it turns into a giffin through food chain, so it can do some work, but it requires more top deck manipulation, through brainstorm or something else.
I found Genesis Hydra to be an allstar when I played. It lets you fully combo off. I considered some cascade action as well but I feel like your hits are not super great. Also keep in mind you can't food chain off a 2 cmc creature into shardless cause of the split mana.
To me, if you're in BUG colors, Baleful Strix is just better than Wall of Blossoms for simply because it'll trade with almost anything it blocks and more importantly, it can trade with Insectile Abberations.
In the Miracles / control matchups, it's actually very strong as well because it creates a (slow) clock that you get value out of if they have to 1 for 1 removal it.
Question, have you tried ponder in place of the dimir charm for more consistency? And how about Oona instead of Vela? Slightly harder to cast but wins you the turn it comes into play, kinda. Better body too.
*scratch that. Forgot the mana can only be used for Creat spells.
I had considered a Ponder in the Dimir Charm slot before and I think it would be fine there too. I had just wanted an extra counterspell for the Combo / Miracles matchup and Dimir Charm also did work as a removal spell so I thought it was fairly solid.
I wouldnt say its that different. Fierce empathy finds emrakul and then you combo off for that. I think its a bit greedy but the balefuls and agents are maximum value producers. I'd be interested to see how that version plays out though.
Not a super fan of the shardless version of the deck, you can't hit food chain off of it. Just small creatures or deck manipulation. It is value but does not seem that great. Also you can food chain into shardless very well, with the split colors. I much prefer cliques for disruption and sometimes you can build into an early combo using them to step form a strix into clique into misthollow. That said in a meta with elves and goblins I can see the appeal.
As to my own deck, I am heading to play a 4 round legacy tonight. I am really torn on the 2x jittes in the sideboard. I feel like they are a terrible answer to burn or aggro decks as it takes at least 3 turns to get it online. Assuming they don't have a bolt for the carrier. I feel like Chills would be better if you fear the red decks. Though perhaps too narrow. I am tempted to just add a toxic deluge and a pithing needle in their place. And hope to dodge the match up.
Not a super fan of the shardless version of the deck, you can't hit food chain off of it. Just small creatures or deck manipulation. It is value but does not seem that great. Also you can food chain into shardless very well, with the split colors. I much prefer cliques for disruption and sometimes you can build into an early combo using them to step form a strix into clique into misthollow. That said in a meta with elves and goblins I can see the appeal.
As to my own deck, I am heading to play a 4 round legacy tonight. I am really torn on the 2x jittes in the sideboard. I feel like they are a terrible answer to burn or aggro decks as it takes at least 3 turns to get it online. Assuming they don't have a bolt for the carrier. I feel like Chills would be better if you fear the red decks. Though perhaps too narrow. I am tempted to just add a toxic deluge and a pithing needle in their place. And hope to dodge the match up.
I suspect Jitte isn't at its best against Burn--they WILL leave Searing Blaze in against you, and they might think that Sulfuric Vortex stays--but I think it's a fine hedge against a wider array of aggro decks. Toxic Deluge is probably better against Elves and Death and Taxes, but I'm slightly leery about it against Goyf decks and Maverick's fat guys. Jitte also seems substantially better than Toxic Deluge against UW Miracles (although you likely have better things to board in against them).
Went 2-2 in 4 round legacy tonight. Burn match is just a nightmare match. Jittes are far to slow to help. Best case you get one online turn 3, to just get the dude bolted carrying it. Maybe Chills? Not sure how to fix this.
Then lost to grixis pryo/delver. He had really good draws. Even with 4 basic land in the deck I got double wastelaned out of the game cause of drawing duels and not fetches. It was rough. I think I will drop 2 more duels for 2 fetches in the future.
That said I had some bad beats tonight. I lost the dice roll all 4 games. I was at 1 life in a game and cast a dig threw time. Seeing 5 land, force of will, toxic deluge. Rough night all and all. But not the worst I have had.
I played the 2 Jitte in my board because I wanted something that doubles as Burn hate along with something that can be used as extra removal against decks with lots of small creatures (Elves, Goblins, D&T, etc.). I want to try Obstinate Baloth in the board as well though since I think it'll also be good against the black hand disruption decks.
The problem I have with Chill is that unless you get it down early, it's not going to do anything against Burn. However, unless we're playing like 3 or 4, the odds of us seeing it early are very poor. I think if you really want to beat Burn in our colors, you have to play something like Zuran Orb?
Re: Shardless List vs Genesis Hydras: I think the Shardless list does have more value, but does indeed do so at the cost of extra disruption, so I posit that the combo matchup will be even harder as well as being less able to protect from Abrupt Decays (no Cliques or Misdirection).
How about White Leylines? I know that is going deep, and you have to mull to them, but I just feel like the match is that bad. Though blue blasts or spell pierces maybe more flexible.
I don't think Leyline of Sanctity is that horrible of an idea. It would help both vs Burn and vs Storm decks (EtW we can handle).
In general, I'm not a fan of Leylines because I tend to believe they trick you into keeping bad hands but in some instances, I do agree they can be worth it.
I feel like you are all in on the Leylines to the point you have to mull to them. So yeah not a super fan, but I feel like this match is pretty onesided you might have to go to extremes.
I gave Jesper's list a spin this weekend and went 5-0-1 with it in one of our local Legacy tournaments and chopped in the T4.
I made 1 tweak to the maindeck, swapping the Tombstalker for a Necropolis Fiend (because I think Fiend is generally superior) and played the following sideboard:
In my continuing quest to shore up the Burn / Storm matchup, it was suggested to me to try Leyline of Sanctity out. I think it's potentially very powerful in theory because unlike other decks that don't have a combo kill, we just want to stall long enough to combo out. I inherently dislike Leylines because I think they're a trap (make you keep bad hand with them or you keep hands without them and draw them later) but I can't deny their effectiveness when you do open with one.
My matchups:
Round 1 vs UW Stoneblade: Shardless Agent + Strixes provide card advantage + pressure and I eventually combo out both games. (1-0)
Round 2 vs UG Cloudpost: I think this matchup is pretty favorable to us. We're the faster combo deck + we're more disruptive. What's not to love? Game 1 he SnT, which I let resolve because I have Emrakul in my hand. Game 2 we both durdle and I combo out and kill him. (2-0)
Round 3 vs UWR Delver: Game 1 he goes T1 Delver, which almost goes the distance, but a Shardless -> Sylvan Library allows me to find enough fliers to stop the Delver (even though I couldn't find an Abrupt Decay for the life of me). Game 2 he just doesn't have any pressure early on, which gives me plenty of time to grind him out. (3-0)
Round 4 vs Dark Maverick: Game 1: I grind him out with dudes and kill all his guys. Game 2, I mull to 5 and die with double Brainstorm in my hand when I can't find an answer to a Spirt of the Labyrinth. Game 3 he keeps a 1 lander and doesn't hit more lands while I grind him out.
Round 5: ID.
T8 vs UW Stoneblade (my R1 opponent): Game 1: We grind until he exhausts the cards in his hand and I combo out. Game 2: He gets like a 4 for 1 on me with Supreme Verdict (haven't seen that card in a long time!) and while I almost recover, Emrakul gets stuck in my hand and Jace grinds me out. Game 3: I grind him out then combo kill him.
So a few thoughts on Jesper's list vs the list I played:
- Shardless Agent + Baleful Strix in the same deck really makes for some insane card advantage. Sometimes you just Shardless into a Brainstorm but other times, you just get some nutty cascades (we all know this). Is this better than playing Vendilion Cliques though? I'm still not 100% certain. I think the Agents probably make you better vs the Delver / midrange decks while the Cliques are better vs combo and Miracles as well as being able to strip Abrupt Decays out of your opponents' hands. It did feel great playing spells for a few turns and having a full grip of cards though.
- Genesis Hydra vs Fierce Empath: Empath seemed just mediocre to me. I never really got to take advantage of Empath + Necropolis Fiend and there were some games where I'd have Empath in my hand with a bunch of mana on the board and just wish I could cast a big Hydra. However, if you want to Shardless, you can't really run Hydra.
- The 4th Mishollow Griffin: I definitely missed having the 4th Misthollow Griffin. There were times where I would draw Manipulate Fate + a Misthollow Griffin and having the 4th one would've made my Manipulate Fates just that much better, not to mention the times I had Food Chain but no Griffin. I think 4 is correct to maximize our chances of getting Griffin + Food Chain together (not to mention making our FoWs better).
- Ponder vs Dig Through Time: Ponders were great early on, but mid/late games, I missed DTT to reset my dead Griffins + dig deep for what I needed. Given that both lists only play 2 of their respective cards, I think the odds of seeing them early are much lower. I do think Ponder makes the tempo deck matchups even better though as it allows us to dig for land/answers early on.
- Golgari Charm: I did really miss the second Golgari Charm in my board, especially against the TNN decks. I'll have to see what I can cut to get back up to 2 in the board.
As always, I'd like to hear people's thoughts and opinions!
I'm not quite sure yet (I've actually got the SCG Fort Worth Legacy 5K coming up). I took a break for a couple weeks so I'm starting to play and tweak lists again during our local tournaments. Luckily, we play twice a week at my LGS so I usually get a good amount of practice in.
Jesper's list certainly played well but I also didn't run into any combo/burn/Miracles matchups, which I think the version I played is a little stronger against.
I'm still not certain if I like Fierce Empath or not. It just felt so underwhelming every time I cast it...
I am starting to play the deck, I have a question. When you cast Manipulate Fate do you get three copies of Misthollow Griffin or do you include one or two extra copies of Manipulate Fate alongside the Griffin?
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1) We already have countermagic in the main, so against combo, I like diversifying the angles that we disrupt them especially since we have access to black. This keeps a single card (Defense Grid, for example) from shutting down our disruption package.
2) Hand disruption is particularly good against SnT combo, which is more popular here in the US.
3) I really like knowing what's in my opponent's hand!
So while countermagic is probably a little bit better against Burn, Duress is still very good and allows us to disrupt combo in a different way. I wouldn't fault someone for playing countermagic in those slots though.
Carpet of Flowers is pretty interesting. I'd be bringing it in primarily against the RUG Delver decks, but it seems pretty sweet if you can get it down. I'm not sure what I'd cut for it but it's certainly an intriguing idea.
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Genesis Hydra
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Tidespout Tyrant
4 Food Chain
4 Brainstorm
3 Manipulate Fate
2 Dig through Time
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Disfigure
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Golgari Charm
Round 1: Abzan hate bears. Game 1: This was rough. Turn 1 mother of runes. turn 2 Thalia, turn 3 Ethersworn Canonist. I got out food chain but I could not combo off because of the Mother protecting the cannonist. Lost to batterskull and hate bear beats.
Game 2: I side board in a lot of disfigures. Turn 1 I disfigure his mother or runes. I got kinda stuck on mana to wastelands. I almost turn 4-5 combo off but a random bog takes out my GY stopping me from using DRS for mana to start the combo. I go on to lose. But I did live the dream of Misdirecting a Decay targeting my food chain onto one of his creatures.
0-1
Round 2: Golbins. Game 1. I force a turn 1 vial using a grif. Goblins does what goblins do and kept coming out with a cavern of souls. At 3 life I end of turn dig through time hitting perfect Food chain and Genesis hydra to combo off. He was not convinced after I bounced all his things with me being at 3. So I started cliquing his hand into lands he tapped out.
Game 2: I sideboard in 3 disfigures, 2 golgari charms. Decay a vial, kill all the creatures. Combo off.
1-1
Round 3: Dredge. Game 1: I start on the play. I play DRS. He sighs and plays a black creature and dumps his hand into the yard. I play a 2nd DRS and eat one of the 4 dredgers in his yard. He dredges hits a narc and some other stuff, but only 1 land in play still. I keep after his yard with my shamen, while he whiffs on his next dredge as well. He loses eventually. I feel like I got pretty luck here with 2 DRS at the start. And him not hitting a bridge.
Game 2: I sideboard in 2x relic of prog and took out Misdirections. I start to draw my hand. I see Fetch, DRS, Relic, It does not matter what else I see I am keeping. I did get a force of will and a griff though. He plays a land and passes. I play a DRS and pass back, He tries to breakthrough for 1. I debate and force it. Then between relic and DRS his yard never has anything in it. He gives up when I play the 2nd relic a few turns later.
2-1
Round 4: 12 post. Game 1: I turn 1 a DRS. He plays a land. I play a manipulate fate. He has to read it. He was unclear on what this deck was. His turn 3 he casts Show and tell. He drops in monster. I drop in Tidespout tyrant. He has to read it. I cast brainstorm and bounce his creature. Good times. I untap and play food chain and combo him.
Game 2: This one was long. I boarded out my misdirections for duress. I end up with a lot of decays stuck in my hand and stuck on 2 lands for a bit. He counters my Manipulate fate with a swan song. This turned out to be a good play much later. I beat him up with my swan and clique. Getting him to 6ish. I am still not sure if this was a mistake on my part or not. I resolve a Food chain. I have no griffs in hand or exile. I could have saced out my board for a 8 point genesis hydra. I miscounted his mana thing he didn't have enough for eye of ugin and emmy, forgeting eye makes him 2 cheaper to cast. I have force in handx2. I figure I can just finish him off with what I have in play and force his next play. I get emmyed to death.
Game 3: I ditch more decays for duresses. He mulls. I keep a sketchy hand in retro spec. Fetch land, DRS, brainstorm, Duress, Griff, strix, tyrant. I duress him. He has 2 land, kozlick, crop rotation, 2 expedition maps. I take a map as he has no green to even crop rotate. Next turn I brainstorm into a 2nd land, and play DRS. He plays a top. Lucky him, he moves stuff around, but misses his 3rd land drop. I cast a strix, he tops no land, I play a griff. I get the slow beat downs on. I duress him again. He has a brainstorm, and other stuff. I take the Brainstorm. He swan songs my food chain, I beat him with my swan, grif, strix army. He repeals my DRS to not die that turn. I finish him off with beats.
3-1
I am of mixed feelings about my sideboard. It was nice. I probably made some mistakes leading to my losses in the first round. This is my first time playing combo in legacy I got to say it is fun to win out of no where. You always have hope to come back where as with alot of decks once you are behind you are just done. I will keep playing this deck for the time being it is nice and rogue. A lot of people don't know how to react to it or play against it. It was nice to finally cash in one of these weekly events. I have been struggling with jeskia delver for a while. Having less counter magic feels weird. But man, misdirection or fow with a griff to toss feels so good.
I was frustrated by the Deathrite shaman not being able to be used for mana due to lack of fetches, gyhate, or them having one of their own, to the point I considered replacing them with mana dorks later. But man did they do work against dredge... They won me that match for sure. Perhaps I will split the difference, I don't know. Over all I was happy with how the deck worked out. I didn't get a chance to use the carpent of flowers or jittes. I probably should have used the jittes against the hate bears in retrospect and maybe goblins.
I look forward to trying it out again next week. Not sure what if any changes I will make.
The dream indeed.
Oh, a tip vs Dredge when using DRS - if they have multiple Dredgers, it's usually better to wait until their draw step to eat any Narcomoebas or Ichorids that hit their yard (you can eat a Narcomoeba with its trigger on the stack). Since they tend to have a lot of redundant dredgers, eating just one at a time usually isn't very effective.
4x Misthollow Griffin
4x Shardless Agent
4x Deathrite Shaman
2x Wall of Blossoms
1x Baleful Strix
1x Vela the Night-Clad
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Noble Hierarch
1x Tidespout Tyrant
4x Brainstorm
4x Food Chain
4x Force of Will
3x Manipulate Fate
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Dig Through Time
1x Misdirection
1x Sylvan Library
4x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Polluted Delta
2x Verdant Catacombs
3x Forest
3x Island
1x Swamp
Edit: it does get Misthollow Griffin through Manipulate fate, so that may be the reason.
I also see Wall of Blossoms over Baleful Strix. Any reason for that?
I assume the land base is a money related choice?
In the Miracles / control matchups, it's actually very strong as well because it creates a (slow) clock that you get value out of if they have to 1 for 1 removal it.
Question, have you tried ponder in place of the dimir charm for more consistency? And how about Oona instead of Vela? Slightly harder to cast but wins you the turn it comes into play, kinda. Better body too.
*scratch that. Forgot the mana can only be used for Creat spells.
http://www.scvopen.com/top-8-decklists-legacy-scvopen4/
Thanks - I think this proves the Shardless Agent variant has power.
I see he used Fierce Empath to tutor for Emrakul as a combo finisher or Tombstalker as a non-combo finisher.
Goblins and Elves got 2nd and 3rd there too. That's pretty cool.
As to my own deck, I am heading to play a 4 round legacy tonight. I am really torn on the 2x jittes in the sideboard. I feel like they are a terrible answer to burn or aggro decks as it takes at least 3 turns to get it online. Assuming they don't have a bolt for the carrier. I feel like Chills would be better if you fear the red decks. Though perhaps too narrow. I am tempted to just add a toxic deluge and a pithing needle in their place. And hope to dodge the match up.
Shardless Agent is surprisingly good at hitting Manipulate Fate for Misthollow Griffins. Hitting Noble Hierarch definitely feels like a whiff, though.
I suspect Jitte isn't at its best against Burn--they WILL leave Searing Blaze in against you, and they might think that Sulfuric Vortex stays--but I think it's a fine hedge against a wider array of aggro decks. Toxic Deluge is probably better against Elves and Death and Taxes, but I'm slightly leery about it against Goyf decks and Maverick's fat guys. Jitte also seems substantially better than Toxic Deluge against UW Miracles (although you likely have better things to board in against them).
Then lost to grixis pryo/delver. He had really good draws. Even with 4 basic land in the deck I got double wastelaned out of the game cause of drawing duels and not fetches. It was rough. I think I will drop 2 more duels for 2 fetches in the future.
That said I had some bad beats tonight. I lost the dice roll all 4 games. I was at 1 life in a game and cast a dig threw time. Seeing 5 land, force of will, toxic deluge. Rough night all and all. But not the worst I have had.
I played the 2 Jitte in my board because I wanted something that doubles as Burn hate along with something that can be used as extra removal against decks with lots of small creatures (Elves, Goblins, D&T, etc.). I want to try Obstinate Baloth in the board as well though since I think it'll also be good against the black hand disruption decks.
The problem I have with Chill is that unless you get it down early, it's not going to do anything against Burn. However, unless we're playing like 3 or 4, the odds of us seeing it early are very poor. I think if you really want to beat Burn in our colors, you have to play something like Zuran Orb?
Re: Shardless List vs Genesis Hydras: I think the Shardless list does have more value, but does indeed do so at the cost of extra disruption, so I posit that the combo matchup will be even harder as well as being less able to protect from Abrupt Decays (no Cliques or Misdirection).
In general, I'm not a fan of Leylines because I tend to believe they trick you into keeping bad hands but in some instances, I do agree they can be worth it.
I made 1 tweak to the maindeck, swapping the Tombstalker for a Necropolis Fiend (because I think Fiend is generally superior) and played the following sideboard:
1 Dimir Charm
2 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Vendilion Clique
In my continuing quest to shore up the Burn / Storm matchup, it was suggested to me to try Leyline of Sanctity out. I think it's potentially very powerful in theory because unlike other decks that don't have a combo kill, we just want to stall long enough to combo out. I inherently dislike Leylines because I think they're a trap (make you keep bad hand with them or you keep hands without them and draw them later) but I can't deny their effectiveness when you do open with one.
My matchups:
Round 1 vs UW Stoneblade: Shardless Agent + Strixes provide card advantage + pressure and I eventually combo out both games. (1-0)
Round 2 vs UG Cloudpost: I think this matchup is pretty favorable to us. We're the faster combo deck + we're more disruptive. What's not to love? Game 1 he SnT, which I let resolve because I have Emrakul in my hand. Game 2 we both durdle and I combo out and kill him. (2-0)
Round 3 vs UWR Delver: Game 1 he goes T1 Delver, which almost goes the distance, but a Shardless -> Sylvan Library allows me to find enough fliers to stop the Delver (even though I couldn't find an Abrupt Decay for the life of me). Game 2 he just doesn't have any pressure early on, which gives me plenty of time to grind him out. (3-0)
Round 4 vs Dark Maverick: Game 1: I grind him out with dudes and kill all his guys. Game 2, I mull to 5 and die with double Brainstorm in my hand when I can't find an answer to a Spirt of the Labyrinth. Game 3 he keeps a 1 lander and doesn't hit more lands while I grind him out.
Round 5: ID.
T8 vs UW Stoneblade (my R1 opponent): Game 1: We grind until he exhausts the cards in his hand and I combo out. Game 2: He gets like a 4 for 1 on me with Supreme Verdict (haven't seen that card in a long time!) and while I almost recover, Emrakul gets stuck in my hand and Jace grinds me out. Game 3: I grind him out then combo kill him.
So a few thoughts on Jesper's list vs the list I played:
- Shardless Agent + Baleful Strix in the same deck really makes for some insane card advantage. Sometimes you just Shardless into a Brainstorm but other times, you just get some nutty cascades (we all know this). Is this better than playing Vendilion Cliques though? I'm still not 100% certain. I think the Agents probably make you better vs the Delver / midrange decks while the Cliques are better vs combo and Miracles as well as being able to strip Abrupt Decays out of your opponents' hands. It did feel great playing spells for a few turns and having a full grip of cards though.
- Genesis Hydra vs Fierce Empath: Empath seemed just mediocre to me. I never really got to take advantage of Empath + Necropolis Fiend and there were some games where I'd have Empath in my hand with a bunch of mana on the board and just wish I could cast a big Hydra. However, if you want to Shardless, you can't really run Hydra.
- The 4th Mishollow Griffin: I definitely missed having the 4th Misthollow Griffin. There were times where I would draw Manipulate Fate + a Misthollow Griffin and having the 4th one would've made my Manipulate Fates just that much better, not to mention the times I had Food Chain but no Griffin. I think 4 is correct to maximize our chances of getting Griffin + Food Chain together (not to mention making our FoWs better).
- Ponder vs Dig Through Time: Ponders were great early on, but mid/late games, I missed DTT to reset my dead Griffins + dig deep for what I needed. Given that both lists only play 2 of their respective cards, I think the odds of seeing them early are much lower. I do think Ponder makes the tempo deck matchups even better though as it allows us to dig for land/answers early on.
- Golgari Charm: I did really miss the second Golgari Charm in my board, especially against the TNN decks. I'll have to see what I can cut to get back up to 2 in the board.
As always, I'd like to hear people's thoughts and opinions!
Jesper's list certainly played well but I also didn't run into any combo/burn/Miracles matchups, which I think the version I played is a little stronger against.
I'm still not certain if I like Fierce Empath or not. It just felt so underwhelming every time I cast it...