I am starting to play the deck, I have a question. When you cast Manipulate Fate do you get three copies of Misthollow Griffin or do you include one or two extra copies of Manipulate Fate alongside the Griffin?
I typically get 3 Misthollow Griffins (they combo so much better with Food Chain than 1 Griffin does), but if I run out of Griffins in the library, I exile Manipulate Fate next. After that...things get sticky.
I get 3 grifs that way if you don't full combo, you can have a nice airforce and win in 2 turns usually.
I have been tempted to try a shardless version but I much prefer the genesis hydra version. Because they are not dead without the combo, you can fish for a missing peace with them.
I recently went up to 11 fetches 4basics 5duels from 9fetches, 3 basics, 8 duels. I got price of progressed and wastelanded out of a lot of games last week. I really don't know what to do about burn decks, I was tempted to try leylines as well, but they feel so bad to draw later and take up alot of sideboard space. I want to test some chills out maybe. They will help against goblins as well.
As to Ponder vs dick, I am going to try and fine room for 2 of each this week I think. Put my 4th decay into the sideboard and maybe a strix. Also to help on my color needs this way with all the basics.
@LyMinh: I always get all my Griffins out first. If I'm out of Griffins to get, I'll usually trim FoW's or lands (depending on my current Land situation).
It's been recommended to me that I try Soul of the Harvest if I want to play a Shardless version. It seems kind of expensive, but I figure I might give it a spin just in case.
Did well tonight, some great games. Using the decklist a few posts above. Some really tough matches. Honestly I didn't have any time between rounds so it is kinda has all blurred together. Here is what I recall.
Round 1: Grixis control. I get owned by jace and lilana. Game 2 I put in my duress x4 I combo him out. Game three I grind him out with griffs and food chain.
Round 2: Bug Delver. Game 1 a stifle keeps me off 3 land. I lose. Game 2. I combo him out again using my duress package and extra removal from disfigures. Also Relic of Prog was the allstar this game, kept goyfs down and DRS crippled.
Round 3: Infect. Game one goes really long, turn 4 I nearly die to double invigorated Noble Hierarch that was getting berserked, I win a force of will war over berserk. I combo him at 5 infect, 6 life. Game 2, I am stuck on 2 land. I lose. Game 3 goes long but I have a ton of removal post board, I blow him out with a toxic deluge after messing with his hand using duress and strix to hold the ground early. In a key play with me at 5 infect holding a abrupt decay. He attacks with a exaulted blighted agent. I snap say 2 infect and go to write it down, he stops me and says kicked vines of vastwood, I decay in response.
Round 4" Miracles... I ask him if he wants to draw so we both get 50 in credit. He declines. He does not know what I am on. Opening turns are a lot of ponder/brainstorm, Top counter balance decay. I resolve 2 dig through times finding fow and decays. He runs out of cards about the same time I do. He resolved a jace. I brainstorm. Seeing some meh cards. I put clique on top and genesis hydra under it. He fatesteals me. Thinks for a while and puts clique to the bottom. I cast Genesis hydra for 5, he has to read it. It resolved. I get a food chain form the trigger. Next turn I draw a tidespout, I make infinite mana, and bounce it all. He scoops.
Next game I go to duress again while thinning my combo. We go back and forth drawing cliqueing etc. He gets a meddling mage out and puts it on food chain. He is stuck on 2 land but had a top and alot of counter magic. He goes to cast a counter balance. I respond with a dig through time. Finding a decay, another dig throuhg time and a brainstorm. I think and take the decay and brainstorm, I think and cast the BS, and find 2 fows. I put a food chain on top my deck. and force the counter balance. Next turn I untap, decay the meddling mage and stick a food chain, he response with a wear/tear. I fow it as well. I made 3 griffens. He snapcasters. Targeting his wear. But taps wrong leaving no white. I hold him to it. He tops flips it, for a fetch and gets a white, losing his top in the process. My food chain is gone, he is at 8. I attack with 3 griffins, he red blasts one, I try to misdirect it to his snap caster, he forces going 7, and then to 1. He brainstorms eot. He miracles entreat for just 2 angels. I decay one eot and swing for the win with the griffs.
4-0 for the night and 70 bucks in credit. I was a bit shaky by the end of the night most my matches went long and no time for snack or drink between. Was really great but took a while to chill out after. I feel kinda like a jerk for holding him to mistap, but it was miracles and 40 bucks in prize difference. Everyone was cool, but I could see some frustration in losing to such a rogue deck. Will have to think about what if any changes I want to make.
Having 4 basics was great. My mana felt safe. I could do things. It does cause some issues turn 1 ponder/brainstorm into turn 2 decay. But I think it is worth it.
Personally I found Tasigur to be great and would not throw him out. He really helps the deck's plan B (we can even call it co-plan A?) of being a grindy midrange deck by providing a faster clock or a big blocker when the game is too fast to wait on the combo.
I loved everything that makes the deck what it is and it performs pretty well. Manipulate fate is a pretty broken draw spell in this deck. Exiling Griffins to FoW and misdirection feels great and the combo feels great to land (especially on opponents who have not seen it yet lol)
The things that bother me about the deck:
1. Food Chain actually does not synergize all that well with the rest of the deck outside of the Misthollow Griffin tricks and the combo. I can think of cases where there is some minor help but never ran into them.
2. Multiple copies of Food Chain does nothing to help win the game so getting stuck with more than one in hand is a drag. Brainstorming them away only helps so much.
3. Tidespout Tyrant is a dead card without Food Chain + Misthollow Griffin. I almost want to go with the Vela plan since she is more castable (although not that much better at 6 versus 8).
4. Genesis Hydra is not a good enough card on its own.
5. The deck is too expensive (cmc not money). One way or another you have to get to four mana to cast a Griffin. Having three exiled griffins from Manipulate Fate doesn't help much when you are stuck on mana. Genesis Hydra hard cast needs at least 6 mana to dig deep enough to have a good enough chance to hit and also then stay out of bolt range. If your dorks die or you stumble on lands for a while you will die with high cmc cards in hand.
I think because of those things the deck lacks the consistency to really dominate, but when it works it really works. I also did just start playing the deck so some of the things I noted may be just me not playing the deck correctly or missing some synergy. Also need to get in more matchups.
Thought scour seems super risky, if you hit tyrant you turn off your combo. I would do Ponders instead.
Genesis hydra is a great card, you can use it to get out stuff uncounterable. I have brainstormed a food chain on top and used the hydra to put it in past counter spells. The last game I played with money on the line against miracles I used a hydra cast for 5 to go off. In control games he is great.
Clique is another good card, you eot peek at their hand, play food chain and use the clique to fuel the start of the hydras. Great against control matches.
You don't need 4 lands to cast griffins, with food chain out DRS and strix are worth 3 mana. That said I do run 4 basics to insure I can hit the higher cmc cards.
That said it is a teir 1.5 deck at best. A lot of strength comes from them not knowing how to sideboard against it. It runs an aggro and combo plan making hard for decks to deal with well. I always see my opponents looking at cards in their board and going back and forth.
Vela and tidespout are pretty close to the same in terms of comboing. But I feel like tidespout gets the edge because of show and tell. Also in the middle of combo you can protect him with any instant spell if they try and kill him in response.
But the best reason to play it is to see the frustration on their faces when they lose. They don't know how it happened, they feel it should not of happened, but as they pick up all their permanents and then replace all the spells with lands from getting cliqued repeatly, they know it is over.
I actually hadn't thought about Thought Scour hitting Tyrant. I will probably just go back to Clique + Dig Through Time.
I know you don't have to have 4 lands which is why I said four mana. It is possible my experience is skewed from playing against lightning bolt decks that kill Deathrite Shaman / Birds / Strix pretty consistently. As far as sacking creatures to get to Griffin at 4 cmc I would only do that if I had the combo in hand, otherwise DRS and Baleful Strix are way too valuable on the board. The problem I see with Food Chain is it costs 3 - meaning if you had 3 to begin with you probably don't need help getting out your cmc 1-3 creatures. I concede it does have some use like you mentioned but I just wish it were more of an enabler instead of mostly just a finisher.
The deck certainly does have power as evidenced by all of its recent finishes and tier 1.5 is not a bad place to be.
A question I have to ask you is do you think this deck is better than traditional Shardless BUG?
Better then shardless bug? That is a hard call. I think it is better against control decks. They because you have an aggro plan and a combo plan so they have to split there resources rather then just dealing with aggro of shardless bug.
That said shardless might be a bit more consistent but less explosive. So I think it is different more then better. I would give the edge to shardless bug over all though in terms win % likely.
The red Delver decks (especially RUG) are amongst our tougher matchups, imo. Lightning Bolt is the removal spell we don't want to see since of the big three (Abrupt Decay, StP, Bolt), it's the one that can deal with Griffin and does so very effectively.
I personally like the deck more than Shardless because we play pretty similarly except we have the "oops, I win" option as well.
Got some playtesting in this weekend against Team America using Jeffrey Chen's list (1st out of 143) with one alteration: +1 Tombstalker; -1 Vendilion Clique. I also tried the Ponders in place of the Dig Through Time at one point. Thoughts:
The Bad News:
* The deck's mana curve is extremely high, which can be problematic against mana denial strategies (Port, Wasteland, Stifle, Hymn to Tourach discarding lands). Keeping a hand with 1-2 lands seems risky unless you have at least 1 mana dork and/or Brainstorm effect, and even then I felt like getting to 3 and especially 4 lands/mana was difficult at times.
* Going off of the last point, the deck constantly feels mana-starved. If your opponent plays his/her own DRS you can get stuck at 2 or 3 mana when all you need is 1 more measly mana to combo out.
* A lot of the cards in the deck can be "dead cards" that do not interact well. A hand with creatures not named Misthollow Griffin with a Food Chain in hand does little other than try to stall to mid-game. Likewise, Genesis Hydra is not a great hardcast unless you have 6-7 mana on board (which essentially never happens) and even then you can get screwed like I did with terrible topdecks. Another card, Tidespout Tyrant, is a dead draw unless your opponent plays SnT or you manage to get the combo going. As posted above, Brainstorm can only do so much.
* With being mana-starved and having expensive CMC cards, it felt like there were multiple times where I could play one thing at best on my turn, and if it was countered I was S.O.L. and basically had a dead turn, which is a death sentence in Legacy. Unlike RUG/BUG/value decks that can spew out multiple 1-2 drop threats on a turn, we are relegated to dropping one thing per turn most of the time.
* It may not seem like that big of a deal, but Goyfs can be a big problem if you do not have Baleful Strix in play. Because our deck runs notable artifacts and enchantments, a Goyf is almost always at least a 5/6 if not a 6/7 or even 7/8.
The good news:
* The Misthollow Griffin recursion engine - even without Food Chain - is often enough to out-value your opponent and win games. Misthollow beats seem more common than combo'ing out.
* Even with the dead draws, there are decent value interactions involving Manipulate Fate/Misdirection/Force of Will and Misthollow Griffin. DRS and Delve cards work great with MG as well.
* Baleful Strix gives nice value as a midrange creature against grinder, goodstuff, and fair decks.
Miscellaneous Thoughts:
* I personally loved the addition of a singleton Tombstalker. It is probably a byproduct of the matchup, but to me Tombstalker is a good card for the deck because he (1) plays nicely with our strategy of Delving out the GY, and (2) is a nightmare for any non-white deck to deal with. He can be a game-winner when he hits the board.
* I don't know the solution for this but somehow I think the deck would benefit from a lower mana curve. I didn't get enough testing in one way or another, but I feel as though Ponder might be better for the deck than Dig Through Time (as long as you have at least 1-2 other delve cards, be it Tombie or whatnot). Being 1 cmc seems relevant. /shrug
Oh yeah, a big Delve guy is my favourite tech for Fierce Empath builds. I've switched to Tasigur lately because he's cheaper and provides (questionable) CA, but Tombstalker is still fairly good in that slot.
I am really not a fan of fierce empath build, It can get countered and show you down. Where as Genesis hydra's trigger can be countered and just puts tidespout or emmy in play.
A few questions. (Keep in mind that I am a brand new Food Chain player!) Just trying to throw some ideas out there spaghetti-style and see what sticks:
(1) What is the love with Genesis Hydra? I understand that when you combo off with it, it is an amazing feeling and a game-winner. It keeps the combo going, particularly with Tidespout Tyrant. However, you effectively cannot cast it without Food Chain in play, so many times it is a dead card. Doesn't that make Genesis Hydra a "win-more" card in a sense, since if you're going infinite with your (creature-based) mana, you should be able to play out what you need to win 90% of the time anyway?
(2) Any thought to running Thoughtseize mainboard? Does that break up our combo too much by putting non-combo/midrange cards in the deck? I've seen some lists that run TS mainboard and was curious if people have playtested that route.
(3) What is a good split of the "pitch" cards, particularly Misdirection? Most successful lists in recent days seem to run 4x Force of Will mainboard and 1x Misdirection main or side. Do we want to run Misdirection mainboard?
(4) Sylvan Library singleton, yay or nay?
(5) How has the 1x Jitte sideboard option fared, not just for midrange matchups but particularly for Burn, a problem matchup?
I am really not a fan of fierce empath build, It can get countered and show you down. Where as Genesis hydra's trigger can be countered and just puts tidespout or emmy in play.
Couldn't an argument be made that they can just as well counter the Genesis Hydra? Granted I have ZERO experience with Fierce Empath, but my logic pattern is as follows:
Q: Which card is better when you have Food Chain in play with Misthollows to go infinite?
A: Genesis Hydra, though Fierce Empath can still tutor your bullet (Tidespout, Emrakul, Vela, Tombstalker).
Q: Which card is better when you have Food Chain in play with no creature cards?
A: A wash. Fierce Empath can tutor the bullet but still needs Misthollow or other creatures in play to combo. Genesis Hydra is the same way, as you are likely not going to cast a Hydra at X=1 or X=2... (unless you know what is coming up on top via Brainstorm)
Q: Which card is better when you don't have Food Chain?
A: I would lean towards Fierce Empath, because at least in that case you can tutor up a relevant midrange bullet (Tombstalker) which is essentially a 2 cmc 5/5 flyer that can win you the game. Genesis Hydra doesn't do much of anything without Food Chain in play, and even then you need Misthollow.
Again, these are my introductory thoughts having not played PE and just getting into the deck, but to me, when I NEED a card, I'd rather go Fierce Empath because that gets you out of a hole...
(1) What is the love with Genesis Hydra? I understand that when you combo off with it, it is an amazing feeling and a game-winner. It keeps the combo going, particularly with Tidespout Tyrant. However, you effectively cannot cast it without Food Chain in play, so many times it is a dead card. Doesn't that make Genesis Hydra a "win-more" card in a sense, since if you're going infinite with your (creature-based) mana, you should be able to play out what you need to win 90% of the time anyway?
Genesis hydra gets things in play in an uncounterable way. Like foodchain if you are trying to assemble the combo, or tyrant to go off with. Also you would be surprised in longer control games how many times you can cast him for 3-5. I have brainstormed Food chain on top and got it out this way more often then you would think.
(2) Any thought to running Thoughtseize mainboard? Does that break up our combo too much by putting non-combo/midrange cards in the deck? I've seen some lists that run TS mainboard and was curious if people have playtested that route.
I would do Duress first. Honestly aggro or burn matches are some of the hardest and that life adds up with fetch lands. I guess it depends on the meta, against more control/combo they would be fine, but against alot of aggro decks not so good.
(3) What is a good split of the "pitch" cards, particularly Misdirection? Most successful lists in recent days seem to run 4x Force of Will mainboard and 1x Misdirection main or side. Do we want to run Misdirection mainboard?
I run 4x fow and 1-2 misdirections main or split 1-1 main/side. Misdirection can be amazing. The best feeling is changing the target of a abrupt decay from your Food chain to their TNN. They are basically extra forces.
(4) Sylvan Library singleton, yay or nay?
If you can find room. I prefer a dig or ponder as they enable fow. But sometime I might go library.
(5) How has the 1x Jitte sideboard option fared, not just for midrange matchups but particularly for Burn, a problem matchup?
I am not a fan, is slow to get online. I have taken them out of the sideboard all together.
As to Genesis hydra. His trigger can't be countered. I typoed that I think. It could be stifled. Making him a safer way to go off when comboing. I can see an argument for empath if you have other bullets. But I find 1 bullet is enough. Honestly i win via grif army more then full combo. But having the threat of doing it is great.
You can try either way. But I think gen hydra is much less a bad draw later in the game. The only reason I would run empaths is if I had more then 1 tutor target or I was playing the shardless build. I would also do Emmy over tidespout if I was going that way. Which I might try just for a change of pace, But so far in 4x 4 round legacy events I have a 11-4-1 record. So I am pretty happy with my configuration. I just chain sideboard card from time to time.
Empath vs Genesis Hydra I think just depends on the matchup. If you are playing a Blue/FoW deck I like the Hydra better since you get your winner out even if it gets countered.
I think Empath is a much better midrange card on its own in conjunction with a Delve creature (Tombstalker/Tasigur) and helps with the deck's mana curve problem. On that note which one is better - Tasigur or Tombstalker. I'd have to lean toward Tasigur due to cost.
I like the sound of Ponder rather than Dig while replacing Dig with Delve Creatures.
I still think the deck has a lot of merits due to the value of Griffin-pitching to FoW. And if you take a away the combo you are still playing a bunch of good cards.
Empath vs Genesis Hydra I think just depends on the matchup. If you are playing a Blue/FoW deck I like the Hydra better since you get your winner out even if it gets countered.
I think Empath is a much better midrange card on its own in conjunction with a Delve creature (Tombstalker/Tasigur) and helps with the deck's mana curve problem. On that note which one is better - Tasigur or Tombstalker. I'd have to lean toward Tasigur due to cost.
I like the sound of Ponder rather than Dig while replacing Dig with Delve Creatures.
I still think the deck has a lot of merits due to the value of Griffin-pitching to FoW. And if you take a away the combo you are still playing a bunch of good cards.
You may as well call me Derp McDerpingston seeing as how I totally missed the boat on the Genesis Hydra ability being a trigger that is placed on the stack. For some reason I just assumed it was part of the resolution of the creature itself akin to an ETB effect. Goes to show how little I've played the deck so far!
I have a feeling Tombstalker is still superior to Tasigur. Tasigur suffers from several significant weaknesses, namely: (1) his 4 power is not enough to take on opposing Goyfs (which will likely be at least 4/5's if not higher due to our artifacts/enchantments); (2) he is legendary creature, and thus susceptible to Karakas; and (3) his ability does not play nicely with our strategy. Imagine if you accidentally overturn a Misthollow or a silver bullet into your GY. Suddenly you're S.O.L. as the GY is the last place you want those cards. I'd much rather taking an evasion beater with 5 power. I have not found the BB mana cost of Tombstalker to be prohibitive so far.
Back on the topic of Genesis Hydra, how are people able to cast it for so much mana without Food Chain on the board? I hear reports of people casting it at X=7, 8, etc. whereas in my playtesting he seems to be about an X=2 or X=3 at best. This is magnified in the fact that most builds only run 19-20 lands, of which the majority are fetches.
This deck plays midrange and against control or another midrange games go long. Also you have DRS for some ramp. Or maybe a food chain but no griffs so you drop another creature into a hydra hoping to hit a griff and go off. Five is the most I have cast it for. But I have done it a few times.
Tasigur. I am just not sure, I am going to run 1 in place of a dig this week and see how I like it. That said I don't run tombstalker either. It seems meh to me. Double black can be a pain in some matches. I would rather have a dig through time to find a combo or answer. If I was going to run a 2nd big creature it would be a win con like vela or emmy I think.
Round 1 Jeskai Delver: Game 2 gets an early flipped delver and a jitte going and rides it to victory. I can't find a decay or anything until it is too late.
Game 2, I cast a duress turn 1, He fows it. Seemed weird to me. So I fow, back, He forces back. We are both left in top deck mode after that basically. He pulls sfm right off the top, into batterskull, into sword of feast and famine which he was forcing to protect it seems. I draw lands. I don't think I made any mistakes. I just lost.
0-1
Round 2 Storm: I lose the dice roll. I don't know what he is playing. I die before I get a turn.
Game 2. I grind him out with DRS and relic of prog keeping him off a past in flames kill after forcing his ad nas.
Game 3, I agressively mull for interaction. Go to 5, end up with fetch, duress x2, clique brainstorm. Not great but probably not getting better. He ponders and passes. I Duress, He has kill in hand. Rituals, LED, infernal tutor. I take the tutor. He then brainstorms, rituals, adnas, down to 2 life. He gets what he needs to kill me next turn. I draw a relic. I debate brainstorming into a 2nd land and duressing, but if I miss I die. So I duress another infernal tutor away. He untaps, cantrips a few times. And past in flame kills me. Not alot I could do.
0-2
Round 3 Miracles: I know what the guy is on this time because he was next to me last round. He gets a turn 1 top, I draw force on my turn 1. Sigh. We grind for about 20 mins. I get his top with a decay when he fetchs. This was big. I get out a food chain and 3 grifs. He hard casts terminus. I sac all my guys. Recast. He hard casts terminus again. I repeat. Eventually I win via beats.
Game 2. He ponders. I duress and get a top, but see a jace, terminus, entreat, bloodmoon. Normally moon is no big with 4 basics, but I got a duel land draw. I duress the moon the following turn and clique the jace after that. He gets out a counter balance top at some point. floating a Jace to counter my griffs. Which I keep cycling with a DRS. I end up with food chain, 6 land and a DRS, I sac him and hard cast a Tidespout, he can't counter top that! He tries to disenchant my food chain. I fow, and bounce the counter balance. I am holding a brainstorm still. He tries to swords my tidespout, I brainstorm it back to my hand. He sighs when I treat the brainstorm like a ponder and never even put the 3 cards with the tidespout. He plays jace. And brainstorms. I go off with griffs and tidespout.
1-2
Round 4 Four color pyrodelver I guess? Game 1: I have to force a cabal early because I have food chain and 2 forces in hand. I manipulate fate and food chain 4 griffs in to play. And beat him down with my army.
Game 2 He gets a delver. I go to disfigure and it gets spell pierced. It does not flip for a while. I Decay it when it does. Meanwhile get out all 4 of my basics. He has 2 waste lands in play. This game grinds for a while as I put in alot of my creature removal and he slaughter gamed my Food chain. I cast tasigur, Finally tonight. Tasigur does work against the decay/bolt deck. He gets beats in, and gets me some CA. I hard cast tidespout at some point. But he is just cold to tasigur who gets the win. I am sitting on golgari charm most the game for his pyromancers.
2-2
Was a rough and weird night. I hard cast tidespout twice. I never saw a genesis hydra all night. Was a bit frustrated by getting mugged by jeskai delver. Normally not a bad match. Storm losses happen. He had 2 really strong hands. I probably need graftdiggers cages in the side. I am seriously considering shardless build next week for a change of pace. Using emmy as a win con with fierce empaths. It should provide more pressure early and win me a Card advantage war pretty easy. Working on a list atm. Anyone tried shardless lately?
I'm wondering how playable Sidisi, Undead Vizier is in the Genesis Hydra slot. These are their pros and cons from my point of view (some pros of Fierce Empath over them both are that Empath costs 3 mana, it can tutor for a cheap Delve dude in grindy games, and it can be profitably Green Sun's Zenithed for):
I will be playtesting this weekend against my friend who plays Elves, DNT, Merfolk, Burn. I'll report in on my findings, particularly with respect to the Fierce Empath vs. Genesis Hydra package and Ponder vs. Dig Through Time. I originally tried out the Genesis Hydra & DTT route but was not totally pleased. I'll also report in on sideboard choices.
On a completely unrelated topic, has anyone tried running Surgical Extraction in their sideboard? Seems like it could actually be intriguing in that you don't have to just cast it against your opponent (which is the typical, obvious route) but also to surgically extract yourself! It operates as a pseudo-Manipulate Fate, the only caveat being you need to have a Misthollow in your GY to get the ball rolling. Thoughts?
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I typically get 3 Misthollow Griffins (they combo so much better with Food Chain than 1 Griffin does), but if I run out of Griffins in the library, I exile Manipulate Fate next. After that...things get sticky.
I have been tempted to try a shardless version but I much prefer the genesis hydra version. Because they are not dead without the combo, you can fish for a missing peace with them.
I recently went up to 11 fetches 4basics 5duels from 9fetches, 3 basics, 8 duels. I got price of progressed and wastelanded out of a lot of games last week. I really don't know what to do about burn decks, I was tempted to try leylines as well, but they feel so bad to draw later and take up alot of sideboard space. I want to test some chills out maybe. They will help against goblins as well.
As to Ponder vs dick, I am going to try and fine room for 2 of each this week I think. Put my 4th decay into the sideboard and maybe a strix. Also to help on my color needs this way with all the basics.
Probably going to run this decklist this week:
2x Island
1x Swamp
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
3x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Manipulate Fate
2x Ponder
3x Baleful Strix
4x Deathrite Shaman
2x Genesis Hydra
4x Misthollow Griffin
1x Tidespout Tyrant
2x Vendilion Clique
4x Brainstorm
2x Dig Through Time
4x Force of Will
2x Misdirection
4x Food Chain
2x Chill
2x Disfigure
4x Duress
2x Golgari Charm
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Umezawa's Jitte
It's been recommended to me that I try Soul of the Harvest if I want to play a Shardless version. It seems kind of expensive, but I figure I might give it a spin just in case.
Round 1: Grixis control. I get owned by jace and lilana. Game 2 I put in my duress x4 I combo him out. Game three I grind him out with griffs and food chain.
Round 2: Bug Delver. Game 1 a stifle keeps me off 3 land. I lose. Game 2. I combo him out again using my duress package and extra removal from disfigures. Also Relic of Prog was the allstar this game, kept goyfs down and DRS crippled.
Round 3: Infect. Game one goes really long, turn 4 I nearly die to double invigorated Noble Hierarch that was getting berserked, I win a force of will war over berserk. I combo him at 5 infect, 6 life. Game 2, I am stuck on 2 land. I lose. Game 3 goes long but I have a ton of removal post board, I blow him out with a toxic deluge after messing with his hand using duress and strix to hold the ground early. In a key play with me at 5 infect holding a abrupt decay. He attacks with a exaulted blighted agent. I snap say 2 infect and go to write it down, he stops me and says kicked vines of vastwood, I decay in response.
Round 4" Miracles... I ask him if he wants to draw so we both get 50 in credit. He declines. He does not know what I am on. Opening turns are a lot of ponder/brainstorm, Top counter balance decay. I resolve 2 dig through times finding fow and decays. He runs out of cards about the same time I do. He resolved a jace. I brainstorm. Seeing some meh cards. I put clique on top and genesis hydra under it. He fatesteals me. Thinks for a while and puts clique to the bottom. I cast Genesis hydra for 5, he has to read it. It resolved. I get a food chain form the trigger. Next turn I draw a tidespout, I make infinite mana, and bounce it all. He scoops.
Next game I go to duress again while thinning my combo. We go back and forth drawing cliqueing etc. He gets a meddling mage out and puts it on food chain. He is stuck on 2 land but had a top and alot of counter magic. He goes to cast a counter balance. I respond with a dig through time. Finding a decay, another dig throuhg time and a brainstorm. I think and take the decay and brainstorm, I think and cast the BS, and find 2 fows. I put a food chain on top my deck. and force the counter balance. Next turn I untap, decay the meddling mage and stick a food chain, he response with a wear/tear. I fow it as well. I made 3 griffens. He snapcasters. Targeting his wear. But taps wrong leaving no white. I hold him to it. He tops flips it, for a fetch and gets a white, losing his top in the process. My food chain is gone, he is at 8. I attack with 3 griffins, he red blasts one, I try to misdirect it to his snap caster, he forces going 7, and then to 1. He brainstorms eot. He miracles entreat for just 2 angels. I decay one eot and swing for the win with the griffs.
4-0 for the night and 70 bucks in credit. I was a bit shaky by the end of the night most my matches went long and no time for snack or drink between. Was really great but took a while to chill out after. I feel kinda like a jerk for holding him to mistap, but it was miracles and 40 bucks in prize difference. Everyone was cool, but I could see some frustration in losing to such a rogue deck. Will have to think about what if any changes I want to make.
Having 4 basics was great. My mana felt safe. I could do things. It does cause some issues turn 1 ponder/brainstorm into turn 2 decay. But I think it is worth it.
Personally I found Tasigur to be great and would not throw him out. He really helps the deck's plan B (we can even call it co-plan A?) of being a grindy midrange deck by providing a faster clock or a big blocker when the game is too fast to wait on the combo.
I loved everything that makes the deck what it is and it performs pretty well. Manipulate fate is a pretty broken draw spell in this deck. Exiling Griffins to FoW and misdirection feels great and the combo feels great to land (especially on opponents who have not seen it yet lol)
The things that bother me about the deck:
1. Food Chain actually does not synergize all that well with the rest of the deck outside of the Misthollow Griffin tricks and the combo. I can think of cases where there is some minor help but never ran into them.
2. Multiple copies of Food Chain does nothing to help win the game so getting stuck with more than one in hand is a drag. Brainstorming them away only helps so much.
3. Tidespout Tyrant is a dead card without Food Chain + Misthollow Griffin. I almost want to go with the Vela plan since she is more castable (although not that much better at 6 versus 8).
4. Genesis Hydra is not a good enough card on its own.
5. The deck is too expensive (cmc not money). One way or another you have to get to four mana to cast a Griffin. Having three exiled griffins from Manipulate Fate doesn't help much when you are stuck on mana. Genesis Hydra hard cast needs at least 6 mana to dig deep enough to have a good enough chance to hit and also then stay out of bolt range. If your dorks die or you stumble on lands for a while you will die with high cmc cards in hand.
I think because of those things the deck lacks the consistency to really dominate, but when it works it really works. I also did just start playing the deck so some of the things I noted may be just me not playing the deck correctly or missing some synergy. Also need to get in more matchups.
Genesis hydra is a great card, you can use it to get out stuff uncounterable. I have brainstormed a food chain on top and used the hydra to put it in past counter spells. The last game I played with money on the line against miracles I used a hydra cast for 5 to go off. In control games he is great.
Clique is another good card, you eot peek at their hand, play food chain and use the clique to fuel the start of the hydras. Great against control matches.
You don't need 4 lands to cast griffins, with food chain out DRS and strix are worth 3 mana. That said I do run 4 basics to insure I can hit the higher cmc cards.
That said it is a teir 1.5 deck at best. A lot of strength comes from them not knowing how to sideboard against it. It runs an aggro and combo plan making hard for decks to deal with well. I always see my opponents looking at cards in their board and going back and forth.
Vela and tidespout are pretty close to the same in terms of comboing. But I feel like tidespout gets the edge because of show and tell. Also in the middle of combo you can protect him with any instant spell if they try and kill him in response.
But the best reason to play it is to see the frustration on their faces when they lose. They don't know how it happened, they feel it should not of happened, but as they pick up all their permanents and then replace all the spells with lands from getting cliqued repeatly, they know it is over.
I know you don't have to have 4 lands which is why I said four mana. It is possible my experience is skewed from playing against lightning bolt decks that kill Deathrite Shaman / Birds / Strix pretty consistently. As far as sacking creatures to get to Griffin at 4 cmc I would only do that if I had the combo in hand, otherwise DRS and Baleful Strix are way too valuable on the board. The problem I see with Food Chain is it costs 3 - meaning if you had 3 to begin with you probably don't need help getting out your cmc 1-3 creatures. I concede it does have some use like you mentioned but I just wish it were more of an enabler instead of mostly just a finisher.
The deck certainly does have power as evidenced by all of its recent finishes and tier 1.5 is not a bad place to be.
A question I have to ask you is do you think this deck is better than traditional Shardless BUG?
That said shardless might be a bit more consistent but less explosive. So I think it is different more then better. I would give the edge to shardless bug over all though in terms win % likely.
I personally like the deck more than Shardless because we play pretty similarly except we have the "oops, I win" option as well.
The Bad News:
* The deck's mana curve is extremely high, which can be problematic against mana denial strategies (Port, Wasteland, Stifle, Hymn to Tourach discarding lands). Keeping a hand with 1-2 lands seems risky unless you have at least 1 mana dork and/or Brainstorm effect, and even then I felt like getting to 3 and especially 4 lands/mana was difficult at times.
* Going off of the last point, the deck constantly feels mana-starved. If your opponent plays his/her own DRS you can get stuck at 2 or 3 mana when all you need is 1 more measly mana to combo out.
* A lot of the cards in the deck can be "dead cards" that do not interact well. A hand with creatures not named Misthollow Griffin with a Food Chain in hand does little other than try to stall to mid-game. Likewise, Genesis Hydra is not a great hardcast unless you have 6-7 mana on board (which essentially never happens) and even then you can get screwed like I did with terrible topdecks. Another card, Tidespout Tyrant, is a dead draw unless your opponent plays SnT or you manage to get the combo going. As posted above, Brainstorm can only do so much.
* With being mana-starved and having expensive CMC cards, it felt like there were multiple times where I could play one thing at best on my turn, and if it was countered I was S.O.L. and basically had a dead turn, which is a death sentence in Legacy. Unlike RUG/BUG/value decks that can spew out multiple 1-2 drop threats on a turn, we are relegated to dropping one thing per turn most of the time.
* It may not seem like that big of a deal, but Goyfs can be a big problem if you do not have Baleful Strix in play. Because our deck runs notable artifacts and enchantments, a Goyf is almost always at least a 5/6 if not a 6/7 or even 7/8.
The good news:
* The Misthollow Griffin recursion engine - even without Food Chain - is often enough to out-value your opponent and win games. Misthollow beats seem more common than combo'ing out.
* Even with the dead draws, there are decent value interactions involving Manipulate Fate/Misdirection/Force of Will and Misthollow Griffin. DRS and Delve cards work great with MG as well.
* Baleful Strix gives nice value as a midrange creature against grinder, goodstuff, and fair decks.
Miscellaneous Thoughts:
* I personally loved the addition of a singleton Tombstalker. It is probably a byproduct of the matchup, but to me Tombstalker is a good card for the deck because he (1) plays nicely with our strategy of Delving out the GY, and (2) is a nightmare for any non-white deck to deal with. He can be a game-winner when he hits the board.
* I don't know the solution for this but somehow I think the deck would benefit from a lower mana curve. I didn't get enough testing in one way or another, but I feel as though Ponder might be better for the deck than Dig Through Time (as long as you have at least 1-2 other delve cards, be it Tombie or whatnot). Being 1 cmc seems relevant. /shrug
Thoughts?
Abrupt Decay handles goyfs pretty well. Along with DRS and delve editing GYs. And as you mentioned Balefulstrix.
I find running basics and fetching for them aggressively helps a lot against wasteland strats.
I run 2 ponders and 2 digs. I might try swaping a dig for a tombstalker. Though I kinda want to test a tasigur more.
(1) What is the love with Genesis Hydra? I understand that when you combo off with it, it is an amazing feeling and a game-winner. It keeps the combo going, particularly with Tidespout Tyrant. However, you effectively cannot cast it without Food Chain in play, so many times it is a dead card. Doesn't that make Genesis Hydra a "win-more" card in a sense, since if you're going infinite with your (creature-based) mana, you should be able to play out what you need to win 90% of the time anyway?
(2) Any thought to running Thoughtseize mainboard? Does that break up our combo too much by putting non-combo/midrange cards in the deck? I've seen some lists that run TS mainboard and was curious if people have playtested that route.
(3) What is a good split of the "pitch" cards, particularly Misdirection? Most successful lists in recent days seem to run 4x Force of Will mainboard and 1x Misdirection main or side. Do we want to run Misdirection mainboard?
(4) Sylvan Library singleton, yay or nay?
(5) How has the 1x Jitte sideboard option fared, not just for midrange matchups but particularly for Burn, a problem matchup?
Couldn't an argument be made that they can just as well counter the Genesis Hydra? Granted I have ZERO experience with Fierce Empath, but my logic pattern is as follows:
Q: Which card is better when you have Food Chain in play with Misthollows to go infinite?
A: Genesis Hydra, though Fierce Empath can still tutor your bullet (Tidespout, Emrakul, Vela, Tombstalker).
Q: Which card is better when you have Food Chain in play with no creature cards?
A: A wash. Fierce Empath can tutor the bullet but still needs Misthollow or other creatures in play to combo. Genesis Hydra is the same way, as you are likely not going to cast a Hydra at X=1 or X=2... (unless you know what is coming up on top via Brainstorm)
Q: Which card is better when you don't have Food Chain?
A: I would lean towards Fierce Empath, because at least in that case you can tutor up a relevant midrange bullet (Tombstalker) which is essentially a 2 cmc 5/5 flyer that can win you the game. Genesis Hydra doesn't do much of anything without Food Chain in play, and even then you need Misthollow.
Again, these are my introductory thoughts having not played PE and just getting into the deck, but to me, when I NEED a card, I'd rather go Fierce Empath because that gets you out of a hole...
Genesis hydra gets things in play in an uncounterable way. Like foodchain if you are trying to assemble the combo, or tyrant to go off with. Also you would be surprised in longer control games how many times you can cast him for 3-5. I have brainstormed Food chain on top and got it out this way more often then you would think.
I would do Duress first. Honestly aggro or burn matches are some of the hardest and that life adds up with fetch lands. I guess it depends on the meta, against more control/combo they would be fine, but against alot of aggro decks not so good.
I run 4x fow and 1-2 misdirections main or split 1-1 main/side. Misdirection can be amazing. The best feeling is changing the target of a abrupt decay from your Food chain to their TNN. They are basically extra forces.
If you can find room. I prefer a dig or ponder as they enable fow. But sometime I might go library.
I am not a fan, is slow to get online. I have taken them out of the sideboard all together.
You can try either way. But I think gen hydra is much less a bad draw later in the game. The only reason I would run empaths is if I had more then 1 tutor target or I was playing the shardless build. I would also do Emmy over tidespout if I was going that way. Which I might try just for a change of pace, But so far in 4x 4 round legacy events I have a 11-4-1 record. So I am pretty happy with my configuration. I just chain sideboard card from time to time.
I think Empath is a much better midrange card on its own in conjunction with a Delve creature (Tombstalker/Tasigur) and helps with the deck's mana curve problem. On that note which one is better - Tasigur or Tombstalker. I'd have to lean toward Tasigur due to cost.
I like the sound of Ponder rather than Dig while replacing Dig with Delve Creatures.
I still think the deck has a lot of merits due to the value of Griffin-pitching to FoW. And if you take a away the combo you are still playing a bunch of good cards.
You may as well call me Derp McDerpingston seeing as how I totally missed the boat on the Genesis Hydra ability being a trigger that is placed on the stack. For some reason I just assumed it was part of the resolution of the creature itself akin to an ETB effect. Goes to show how little I've played the deck so far!
I have a feeling Tombstalker is still superior to Tasigur. Tasigur suffers from several significant weaknesses, namely: (1) his 4 power is not enough to take on opposing Goyfs (which will likely be at least 4/5's if not higher due to our artifacts/enchantments); (2) he is legendary creature, and thus susceptible to Karakas; and (3) his ability does not play nicely with our strategy. Imagine if you accidentally overturn a Misthollow or a silver bullet into your GY. Suddenly you're S.O.L. as the GY is the last place you want those cards. I'd much rather taking an evasion beater with 5 power. I have not found the BB mana cost of Tombstalker to be prohibitive so far.
Back on the topic of Genesis Hydra, how are people able to cast it for so much mana without Food Chain on the board? I hear reports of people casting it at X=7, 8, etc. whereas in my playtesting he seems to be about an X=2 or X=3 at best. This is magnified in the fact that most builds only run 19-20 lands, of which the majority are fetches.
I have not used Tasigur's activated ability in a match.
I have not cast Hydra for more than 5.
Tasigur. I am just not sure, I am going to run 1 in place of a dig this week and see how I like it. That said I don't run tombstalker either. It seems meh to me. Double black can be a pain in some matches. I would rather have a dig through time to find a combo or answer. If I was going to run a 2nd big creature it would be a win con like vela or emmy I think.
Round 1 Jeskai Delver: Game 2 gets an early flipped delver and a jitte going and rides it to victory. I can't find a decay or anything until it is too late.
Game 2, I cast a duress turn 1, He fows it. Seemed weird to me. So I fow, back, He forces back. We are both left in top deck mode after that basically. He pulls sfm right off the top, into batterskull, into sword of feast and famine which he was forcing to protect it seems. I draw lands. I don't think I made any mistakes. I just lost.
0-1
Round 2 Storm: I lose the dice roll. I don't know what he is playing. I die before I get a turn.
Game 2. I grind him out with DRS and relic of prog keeping him off a past in flames kill after forcing his ad nas.
Game 3, I agressively mull for interaction. Go to 5, end up with fetch, duress x2, clique brainstorm. Not great but probably not getting better. He ponders and passes. I Duress, He has kill in hand. Rituals, LED, infernal tutor. I take the tutor. He then brainstorms, rituals, adnas, down to 2 life. He gets what he needs to kill me next turn. I draw a relic. I debate brainstorming into a 2nd land and duressing, but if I miss I die. So I duress another infernal tutor away. He untaps, cantrips a few times. And past in flame kills me. Not alot I could do.
0-2
Round 3 Miracles: I know what the guy is on this time because he was next to me last round. He gets a turn 1 top, I draw force on my turn 1. Sigh. We grind for about 20 mins. I get his top with a decay when he fetchs. This was big. I get out a food chain and 3 grifs. He hard casts terminus. I sac all my guys. Recast. He hard casts terminus again. I repeat. Eventually I win via beats.
Game 2. He ponders. I duress and get a top, but see a jace, terminus, entreat, bloodmoon. Normally moon is no big with 4 basics, but I got a duel land draw. I duress the moon the following turn and clique the jace after that. He gets out a counter balance top at some point. floating a Jace to counter my griffs. Which I keep cycling with a DRS. I end up with food chain, 6 land and a DRS, I sac him and hard cast a Tidespout, he can't counter top that! He tries to disenchant my food chain. I fow, and bounce the counter balance. I am holding a brainstorm still. He tries to swords my tidespout, I brainstorm it back to my hand. He sighs when I treat the brainstorm like a ponder and never even put the 3 cards with the tidespout. He plays jace. And brainstorms. I go off with griffs and tidespout.
1-2
Round 4 Four color pyrodelver I guess? Game 1: I have to force a cabal early because I have food chain and 2 forces in hand. I manipulate fate and food chain 4 griffs in to play. And beat him down with my army.
Game 2 He gets a delver. I go to disfigure and it gets spell pierced. It does not flip for a while. I Decay it when it does. Meanwhile get out all 4 of my basics. He has 2 waste lands in play. This game grinds for a while as I put in alot of my creature removal and he slaughter gamed my Food chain. I cast tasigur, Finally tonight. Tasigur does work against the decay/bolt deck. He gets beats in, and gets me some CA. I hard cast tidespout at some point. But he is just cold to tasigur who gets the win. I am sitting on golgari charm most the game for his pyromancers.
2-2
Was a rough and weird night. I hard cast tidespout twice. I never saw a genesis hydra all night. Was a bit frustrated by getting mugged by jeskai delver. Normally not a bad match. Storm losses happen. He had 2 really strong hands. I probably need graftdiggers cages in the side. I am seriously considering shardless build next week for a change of pace. Using emmy as a win con with fierce empaths. It should provide more pressure early and win me a Card advantage war pretty easy. Working on a list atm. Anyone tried shardless lately?
Sidisi, Undead Vizier
Pros
Genesis Hydra
Pros
On a completely unrelated topic, has anyone tried running Surgical Extraction in their sideboard? Seems like it could actually be intriguing in that you don't have to just cast it against your opponent (which is the typical, obvious route) but also to surgically extract yourself! It operates as a pseudo-Manipulate Fate, the only caveat being you need to have a Misthollow in your GY to get the ball rolling. Thoughts?