Ban talk already? The deck needs to dominate the game for at least few months don't u think? This isn't modern.
LOL, I know it's called Tin Fins, but why is it called that? I saw the definition in the OP from thesource, but I just didn't catch it's meaning and you're right, I'll delete that part of my post.
LOL, I know it's called Tin Fins, but why is it called that? I saw the definition in the OP from thesource, but I just didn't catch it's meaning and you're right, I'll delete that part of my post.
Its from an episode of Sealab 202. In the episode there are advertisements for a fictional restaurant called Grizzlebees during the previews for a movie titled TinFins.
I guess that is more like where the name came from, not why...
I've been testing the SCG list, but I'm so new to the deck, I'm not sure I see the function of Emrakul, the Aeons Torn as anything more than an Alternate win con or a reset button if Griselbrand fails the first time.
Does anyone else have experience with Emrakul?
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
I've been testing the SCG list, but I'm so new to the deck, I'm not sure I see the function of Emrakul, the Aeons Torn as anything more than an Alternate win con or a reset button if Griselbrand fails the first time.
Does anyone else have experience with Emrakul?
Emrakul serves two main functions:
1) Reanimation target after getting Griselbrand into play to attack for 22 dmg
2) Shuffle effect for going "infinite" with Children of Korlis + Griselbrand draws
Optional 3rd: First reanimation target if the opponent is at or below 15, or as a method of clearing troublematic permanents from your opponent's battlefield.
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16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
- After your first draw 14, entomb+reanimate effect is your easiest win. You can just as easily do this with Children, so Emrakul is taking up an extra slot
+ Sometimes you won't hit Entomb after you draw 14, this gives you +1 chance to end up with target+discard+reanimate effect
+ Reshuffles if Tendrils is in your last few cards and you for some reason can't cantrip into it (corner case)
+ Rushuffles if you can't net enough mana any other way or Tendrils is in the yard (corner case)
+ Sometimes opponent is at 15 life or less and he wins by himself
+ Gets around Leyline/other problem permanents
+ Resets the game if you're at low life (ie had you gone for Gris you would only be able to draw 7 after an attack and are unlikely to get there that turn)
+ Showboating, sometimes you want to draw a hundred cards
+ Randomly beats Painter without maindeck crypt game 1 (lol)
I played Tins Fins today at a 76 person tournament.
I didn't fair too well.
Match 1 vs helm
Game 1: (on the draw) turn 2 Rest in Peace
Game 2: I turn 2 Grissy and Emmy
Game 3: turn 1 Graft diggers cage
1-2
Match 2 vs Show and Tell (0-1)
Game 1: I turn 2, opponent scoops
Game 2: Opponent has Leyline of Santity, we battle with discard and counter magic. Opponent casts Show and Tell, we both reveal Gris, legend rule. I untap, goryo's vengeance my Griselbrand into play, entomb for Emrakrul shallow grave, Swing for 22.
2-0
Match 3 vs RUG Delver (1-1)
Game 1: I mull to 5 and Delver gets there
Game 2: Turn 3 I play silence and combo out
Game 3: Oppont mulls to 5, I combo out turn 2
Match 4 vs RUG Delver (2-1)
Game 1: I dig and can't get a gris into the bin through counter magic, I die to delver with 5 reanimation spells in hand.
Game 2: I ponder, he plays graft digger's cage. I can't find my outs and Delver gets there.
Match 5 vs RUG Delver (2-2)
Game 1: I combo off dark ritual after a game of mana denial
Game 2: I lose to surgical extraction, and I don't find a pull from eternity, Delver gets there
Game 3: Mana denial, I lose to surgical, Delver gets there.
2-3, I drop.
Tournament notes:
-graft diggers cage is pretty good, I want a back up plan like sb show and tell.
-Silence is very good, and could be used proactively to keep threats from being cast to buy time while digging.
-Considering Annul because it hits graft diggers cage and rest in peace
-Cabal Therapy should be used aggressively to find surgical extraction/hate post board.
-I found I won more games with Gitaxian Probe in the deck, than sided out.
-Rug is a tough match up, Pull from eternity should be 3 cards minimum.
-Helm is a very tough match up. Mulling is especially important here.
I played Tins Fins today at a 76 person tournament.
-graft diggers cage is pretty good, I want a back up plan like sb show and tell.
Or.. you can just play show and tell. I mean honestly I've played against this deck a lot in the past few days and it just seems to be a worse re-animator IMO.
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"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not." - John Lennon
Or.. you can just play show and tell. I mean honestly I've played against this deck a lot in the past few days and it just seems to be a worse re-animator IMO.
Re-animator is a Tool box deck, Tin Fins is a combo deck.
I found flaws, it was frustrating to lose to delver attacks, even with aggressive mulligan. Also my match ups were unfavorable. 1 Miracle/Helm, 1 Show and Tell, 3 RUG Thresh.
The deck has merit and is still in its infancy. I wouldn't be so quick to write it off. Its getting some play, and its learning what hate it has to deal with. The next step is to see how evolves in response/adapts to hate.
That's the interesting part. It's a storm combo with a reanimator engine so it has some safety against hate already in that there is potential to play "half of the deck" to avoid hate.
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------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
I posted this over at the Source as well, but people over there seem more convinced than here that this deck is the real deal. Well, it is! The turn 1% isn't ridiculous, but it happens pretty often. Honestly 20% seems high for me but I guess it depends on your build; I don't play Probes. I also play 8 discard spells to hopefully ensure that I'm going off unhindered. Honestly I'd rather Thoughtseize my opponent turn 1 and go off turn 2 than jam into a Force turn 1. Here's my list:
The second Children and the Emrakul can be cut for boarding (though I don't cut Emrakul if I'm bringing S&T in), but they add much consistency to the main deck and I would not remove them from there. I don't run Probe because I found the pain to be too great and would rather run the full discard suite. Finally, the sideboard admittedly sucks, though I wholeheartedly recommend the 4 S&Ts and some number of Decays. Two Needles could be OK, but I basically never used the Needles or Extractions on the day. Here's the report:
Round 1 - RIP/Helm: Rest in peace indeed. I end up drawing here, which is not bad for what on paper obviously looks like our worst matchup. Game one he searches for and plays RIP. I don't remember if I'd attempted to combo off before it but regardless, I'm one turn away from hardcasting Griselbrand when he savagely peels Helm off the top for the win. Because magic is a game of skill.
Game two I think I attempt to go off turn one and my reanimation is countered; turn two I peel another one and go off. Because magic is a game of skill. Game three I punt away. I cast Reanimate on Griselbrand and have to wait til next turn to combo off. He has Counterbalance out so when I cast Reanimate into it I see a Force on top. He draws the Force and passes. I swing, then draw 14. I have an Abrupt Decay and a Thoughtseize in hand. I try Thoughtseize for the Force and he flips Brainstorm off Counterbalance. If I Decay that first I probably win. It ends when I can't finish him, he Swords's my Griz on his turn, and we go to turns. In turns I attempt to Show and Tell a Griselbrand and he blind flips (off a new Counterbalance; I obviously Decay'd the other one) a random Entreat. FML. I wouldn't have been able to win but maybe could have convinced him to scoop with Griz in play. Instead we draw. I'm feeling good after almost getting there in the worst MU.
Round 2 - Jund: Game one he goes first, I go off my turn one; he scoops on seeing Griz (not a terrible move in the draw bracket I guess). Game two I mull to 5 (I mull a lot that day as a whole. I won't always mention it. Welcome to playing a 13 land deck). He gets two Shaman going active and my mull is bad so I have no chance. He tells me after the match that he had a Mindbreak Trap in hand and would've hardcast it with the Shamans if need be. Game three I cast Reanimate on Griz turn one and he scoops.
Round 3 - U/R Delver: For budgetary reasons, he has only one Force of Will in the deck. I win the first game easily as all I see from him is a Mountain and a Goblin Guide. Game two he comes out with double Relic, but at one point casts a Delver with only two lands in play. My turn I play a reanimation spell, he cracks a Relic in response, I cast my second reanimation spell in response, and he loses because he cast that Delver. We play a third as well and he keeps all burn in hopes of putting me too low to go off; I make him discard a Bolt turn 1 and go off turn 2.
Round 4 - BUG?: This is the only match where my memory completely fails me. My notes say that I won game one and game three, and that at one point his hand had a Flusterstorm, Force, and four land in it including a Creeping Tar Pit. I do remember that game (game three) taking the Force and using a Dark Ritual to pay for Flusterstorm. That involved a little math and I was very proud of myself, haha.
Round 5 - Maverick: Game one he goes first, GSZ for Dryad Arbor. I cast one of two Thoughtseizes in hand and see Thalia, Teeg, Mom, Jitte, Fauna Shaman. At first I think I audibly say "oh crap" but he apparently does not pick up on this, so I take Thalia as the less obvious of the two hate cards. Second turn he rips Hierarch and plays Hierarch and Mom. Turn two I Thoughtseize Teeg away. He probably knows he's screwed since I took the anti-combo card and not, like, Jitte, so turn three he swings for two with exalted Arbor in a last-ditch attempt to do some damage, but I go off unhampered on my turn three. Game two he goes first, accelerates mana with something, I go, nothing too relevant, he goes turn two Knight (guess he didn't want to mull to hate), I go Reanimate on Griselbrand, eventually I draw 7, swing, draw 7, go up to 26 with Children and combo out.
Round 6 - Esper Stoneblade: There's about two hours between that match and my next one and I'm only slightly exaggerating. Not to blame this for my loss here; my opponent Bernie is a hell of a magic player and I hope to be half as good someday. He also is playing a deck that can attack me with discard and counters, and his deck is full of foils and black bordered foreign duals. OK, enough about that. Game one it looks like I start with a Thoughtseize and go off turn two. My Thoughtseize took a Spell Pierce and that was his only protection. Game two I Thoughtseize him and see two Forces, Jace, Stoneforge, Wasteland, Snapcaster. I don't remember what happens but I'm unable to fight through all of that after probably taking a Force. He beats me down with Batterskull and Stoneforge. Game three I keep a terrible seven with Chrome Mox as my only mana, no blue cards, and an Entomb. I don't remember if i even had a reanimation spell, but I didn't have the mana to play it or the cards to dig for it, or the blue to play those cards if I'd drawn them. I Thoughtseize him after he plays his Stoneforge but he counters it and is able to get the Batterskull down again, if I remember correctly. He also Cliques me and my hand is so bad he lets me keep it. I probably lost this matchup due to a combination of being outplayed, him having the answers, and keeping bad hands.
Round 7 - Esper Stoneblade: Finally I'm feeling the pain of being in the draw bracket. This one was more of a tilt/misplay loss, at least game one. He basically hits me with a Thoughtseize turn one, counters all of what I want to do, and I finally resolve a Reanimate on Griz but he plays Jace and bounces it. I could've potentially grinded it out; probably would've lost it anyway but going from 15 to 7 at my own hand didn't help. Worst part is I knew he had the Jace, and I may have even knew he had the land. I also got so lazy/tilty that I stopped writing down what he had off my Thoughtseizes, clearly willing to throw away this great record I was lucky to have. Aaaaaaanyway, then there was game two, and this happened:
Because I'm an idiot. So of course my kind friend Doug would like me to take a moment to remind you:
I also lost game two, unsurprisingly, mostly from getting my cantrips countered, and having my Show and Tells and Griselbrands Extracted.
Round 8 - Sneak Attack: After that match I decided I wasn't losing another one, at least not to myself. Game one I attempt a Thoughtseize and he Dazes it, and I go off without seeing anything more from him. Game two is more of the same; he Brainstorms in response to my Thoughtseize, then Dazes it, then I go off next turn. I'm not sure what he had or if that line made any sense, or if he was protecting his pieces, but he's so much slower than me that I think he should just try to counter me and then go off.
Round 9 - Sneak Attack: After that less stress-free match, I'm pretty psyched to see another Volcanic Island come down. Game one I start with fetchland, Dark Ritual, Entomb. He counters it. I cast a second Entomb. It resolves. I cast Reanimate targeting Griselbrand. Yeah, it was pretty dumb luck, but after this long day I'll take it. I try to go off but end up just winning off Griselbrand attacks. Game two is pretty funny, at least from my perspective. My hand is two land, Dark Rit, Entomb, three reanimation effects. I attempt a turn one Ritual, to which he says "I'm not falling for this again" and counters it. I'm pretty sure countering Entomb is always correct unless you have graveyard hate in hand or on board, BUT he tried that last game and it didn't work so this time he counters the Rit. I wait a turn, peel a Petal and go off on my turn two. AND, for the grand finale, and for the first time today, I go through the whole deck a few times and hardcast Emrakul. Because Emrakul.
Sorry for that wall of text, folks, but there's my SCG experience in a nutshell with the deck. I had a ton of fun and felt like it had game against anything, though obviously my kryptonite is good magic players piloting Stoneblade. Would be glad to get feedback, answer questions, etc.
Props:
St. Elmo's forever and always
Doug, for those great pictures as well as selling me many cards for the deck, and loaning me 4x Show and Tell
Marriott Hotel, for cleaning up that room
Slops:
Staying up til 4:30am Saturday night for no reason
No practice
Being 33rd on tiebreakers. Specifically, being the one out of twelve people with my record that was not in the top 32. D:
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
No I haven't! List? Sounds interesting. The deck definitely has its rough matchups. Helm is a terrible matchup and RUG and Esper are both pretty rough. I'm not sure the latter two are much worse than 50/50 though. You can still win games/matches through the sheer power of the deck. And it [Tin Fins] is fantastic against almost any other deck. Anything playing fair loses, and you outrace most other unfair decks and also have discard to deal with them.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
No I haven't! List? Sounds interesting. The deck definitely has its rough matchups. Helm is a terrible matchup and RUG and Esper are both pretty rough. I'm not sure the latter two are much worse than 50/50 though. You can still win games/matches through the sheer power of the deck. And it [Tin Fins] is fantastic against almost any other deck. Anything playing fair loses, and you outrace most other unfair decks and also have discard to deal with them.
There is a posting on The Source, titled "Oozing". It's effectively an older variant of the Necrotic Ooze / Triskelion / Phyrexian Devourer deck using some of the same enablers as Tin Fins. It's a bit slower, and can play with Force of Will; thus making it slightly stronger in some matchups, but less explosive (which is often a benefit in Legacy).
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Twitter - @MTGKoby | MODO - Koby 5x SCG Legacy Open T8
16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
I went mono-black with my build, and I'm pretty happy with it so far. The land base is sub-optimal just because I want to run 15 ugly white border swamps, but it hasn't cost me a game yet in testing.
inked - the Leyline/Helm combo seems very out of place. Even if you start with a Leyline, you'll still have to combo off to find the singleton Helm, so you could fairly easily just Tendrils the opponent of swing with Emrakul instead, no? Maybe I'm missing something.
Mono-black seems like it could work though. You could just add consistency with more Goryo's', Reanimates, max out on Probes and Grizzes... or you could add the 'Oozing' combo linked above by ruckus/Koby. It looks pretty awesome actually; probably the road I'd take were I going mono-black.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
inked - the Leyline/Helm combo seems very out of place. Even if you start with a Leyline, you'll still have to combo off to find the singleton Helm, so you could fairly easily just Tendrils the opponent of swing with Emrakul instead, no? Maybe I'm missing something.
Mono-black seems like it could work though. You could just add consistency with more Goryo's', Reanimates, max out on Probes and Grizzes... or you could add the 'Oozing' combo linked above by ruckus/Koby. It looks pretty awesome actually; probably the road I'd take were I going mono-black.
I added Leyline because in my playgroup about a quarter of us use graveyard strategies and many of those that don't board in Rest in Peace. I figured for my area having the Oops I win factor off the bat is worth main decking to me. Extra Leylines pitch to Unmask. If they see Helm game one it makes them think about the otherwise obvious boarding in of Rest in Peace. In most areas I would guess this is probably wrong, but it has provided me with additional "keep" hands that go off on turn one that other wise should not keep, like: Leyline of the Void, Lotus Petal, Unmask, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Leyline of the Void, Helm of Obedience.
I had that on the play against BUG Agent.
He Mulls to 6 to get Force of Will (I assume)
Leyline of the Void into play.
Unmask pitching Leyline of the Void.
Force of Will. (Opponent has 4 cards in hand, no permanents)
Lotus Petal -> Dark Ritual -> Dark Ritual -> Helm of Obedience, activate, win.
In another game against Death and Taxes (game two with Ethersworn Canonist in play) I started the game with a Leyline, and end of his turn cast Spoils of the Vault (almost killing myself, this card is very risky) got the Helm, and my turn cast it off my built up permanent-based mana base and won. Their Enlightened Tutor -> Ethersworn Canonist, or Rest in Peace made me leave this secondary wincon in.
I finally got to spend some time with the insanity that is Tin Fins this week. I got in 8 rounds over 2 events, going 4-0 and 2-2 respectively. Here is the list I ran:
The first event was a 9 person event. The rounds were:
Jund 2-1
Tin Fins Mirror 2-1 (Vengeancing my own Griselbrand in response to his attacking Griselbrand was funny, especially since he hard Reanimated his.)
Burn 2-0
Nic-Fit 2-0
The Tin Fins mirror was only a ~95% mirror. His list didn't include white and had more Gitaxian Probes and Careful Study.
I don't recall the specifics of my sideboarding other than I never sided in Needles. I never felt I needed them. There weren't any RIP decks in the room, so I didn't need to side in Realm either, as much as I wanted to. I was siding in Silence quite a bit and siding Probe out every match.
The second event was a 10 person event. The rounds were:
Jund 2-1
Tin Fins Mirror 0-2
Lands (with maindecked Chalice) 0-2
Goblins 2-1
While not the same person, the Tin Fins mirror was similarly lacking white, included Careful Study, and more Probes.
Against Lands, I should have conceded game 1 sooner (Chalice at 1 preventing me from looping Emrakul to get enough mana to Tendrils for a whole lot). I could have won game 2 had I not punted with Teferi's Realm (oddly relevant against Lands no less). If I had discarded Griselbrand to his Raven's Crime, I could have floated mana in my upkeep, name lands for Realm to turn off Karakas and company and proceed to get there, but I chucked irrelevant things instead. Punt indeed. I think I could have turned the match around had I not done that. The loss to the Tin Fins list was just due to him drawing better. The funniest part about the match was that Griselbrand was hardcast 3 times, one of which was me hardcasting mine to legend rule his hardcast Griselbrand. From there, he was able to recover faster than I could.
As far as sideboarding goes, again, I never boarded Needles in and again, I never felt I needed them. Silence was good, and Pull was useful as well. I did get to use Teferi's Realm against Lands and it seemed good. Had I not punted like I said above, it would have swung game 2 for me. There were games where I sided Chain in expecting permanent based hate (Crypt/Relic/Spellbomb/Leyline) and only saw spell based hate. In those cases, for game 3, I sided Silence in for Chain and it was ok. This is part of the reason why I want get the 4th Silence in the 75 somewhere. It could be a local metagame thing, but I'm tempted to cut Needles for other things.
Other thoughts:
1) I know it's 61 cards. I didn't really like the Probes, so if pushed, I would cut them both for another Silence to get to 60. Either that or -2 Probes +1 Silence +1 Therapy/1 mana disruption that can target myself.
2) I run 14 lands to make more hands keepable. Depending on how many Wastelands I expect at an event, the Island could become Underground Sea number 3.
3) I really like having Children of Korlis number 2 in the deck. It really feels like it's what puts the deck over the top and virtually guarantees inevitability. In some situations where I need more cards to side out, it would be the fifth card to side out after 2 Probes, a Griselbrand, and Chrome Mox number 2 (unless I felt I needed the extra mana).
@rukcus: What are your thoughts on Serenity vs. Teferi's Realm? It is nice that Serenity can handle multiple kinds of hate at once, but since it telegraphs, a smart opponent wouldn't play anymore hate until after it pops (unlike that Ground Seal from Enchantress :D) leading to a 1-for-1 most of the time. I like Realm better since it can help over a longer term, but only dealing with 1 kind of hate can be an issue. What is your experience?
@rukcus: What are your thoughts on Serenity vs. Teferi's Realm? It is nice that Serenity can handle multiple kinds of hate at once, but since it telegraphs, a smart opponent wouldn't play anymore hate until after it pops (unlike that Ground Seal from Enchantress :D) leading to a 1-for-1 most of the time. I like Realm better since it can help over a longer term, but only dealing with 1 kind of hate can be an issue. What is your experience?
Ideally you're not going to cast Serenity until you're ready to go for the kill, but have multiple pieces preventing you from going off. Once it pops, you have a clear shot to Entomb/Reanimate to victory on the same turn.
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16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
Ideally you're not going to cast Serenity until you're ready to go for the kill, but have multiple pieces preventing you from going off. Once it pops, you have a clear shot to Entomb/Reanimate to victory on the same turn.
That makes sense. To you, is the marginal upside of dealing with more than 2 types of cards worth the higher curve and color concentration of Teferi's Realm versus Serenity?
The factors between the two casts (Serenity vs. Teferi's Realm): 1W - 2 cmc 1UU - 3 cmc
With this deck playing only 13-14 lands, the 3 cmc is really hard to get reliably, let alone a double off-color mana cost.
Furthermore, it deals with both sets of cards that stop this deck:
Leyline of the Void / Rest in Peace & Chalice of the Void / Tormod's Crypt / Relic of Progenitus
Serenity has more applications and a cheaper cost; thus why I prefer to use it.
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16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
Ban talk already? The deck needs to dominate the game for at least few months don't u think? This isn't modern.
LOL, I know it's called Tin Fins, but why is it called that? I saw the definition in the OP from thesource, but I just didn't catch it's meaning and you're right, I'll delete that part of my post.
Edit: its from Sealab 2021 from the episode with grizzlebees and a robot shark named tin fins
Its from an episode of Sealab 202. In the episode there are advertisements for a fictional restaurant called Grizzlebees during the previews for a movie titled TinFins.
I guess that is more like where the name came from, not why...
This sounds like a better explanation than I heard. So let's go with this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoShDwTNbnM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnoZimnLqyY
I guess this provides a little more explanation.
Play TinFins, you'll wish you had less fun.
Does anyone else have experience with Emrakul?
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Emrakul serves two main functions:
1) Reanimation target after getting Griselbrand into play to attack for 22 dmg
2) Shuffle effect for going "infinite" with Children of Korlis + Griselbrand draws
Optional 3rd: First reanimation target if the opponent is at or below 15, or as a method of clearing troublematic permanents from your opponent's battlefield.
5x SCG Legacy Open T8
16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
Check out my Legacy stream
- After your first draw 14, entomb+reanimate effect is your easiest win. You can just as easily do this with Children, so Emrakul is taking up an extra slot
+ Sometimes you won't hit Entomb after you draw 14, this gives you +1 chance to end up with target+discard+reanimate effect
+ Reshuffles if Tendrils is in your last few cards and you for some reason can't cantrip into it (corner case)
+ Rushuffles if you can't net enough mana any other way or Tendrils is in the yard (corner case)
+ Sometimes opponent is at 15 life or less and he wins by himself
+ Gets around Leyline/other problem permanents
+ Resets the game if you're at low life (ie had you gone for Gris you would only be able to draw 7 after an attack and are unlikely to get there that turn)
+ Showboating, sometimes you want to draw a hundred cards
+ Randomly beats Painter without maindeck crypt game 1 (lol)
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
I didn't fair too well.
Match 1 vs helm
Game 1: (on the draw) turn 2 Rest in Peace
Game 2: I turn 2 Grissy and Emmy
Game 3: turn 1 Graft diggers cage
1-2
Match 2 vs Show and Tell (0-1)
Game 1: I turn 2, opponent scoops
Game 2: Opponent has Leyline of Santity, we battle with discard and counter magic. Opponent casts Show and Tell, we both reveal Gris, legend rule. I untap, goryo's vengeance my Griselbrand into play, entomb for Emrakrul shallow grave, Swing for 22.
2-0
Match 3 vs RUG Delver (1-1)
Game 1: I mull to 5 and Delver gets there
Game 2: Turn 3 I play silence and combo out
Game 3: Oppont mulls to 5, I combo out turn 2
Match 4 vs RUG Delver (2-1)
Game 1: I dig and can't get a gris into the bin through counter magic, I die to delver with 5 reanimation spells in hand.
Game 2: I ponder, he plays graft digger's cage. I can't find my outs and Delver gets there.
Match 5 vs RUG Delver (2-2)
Game 1: I combo off dark ritual after a game of mana denial
Game 2: I lose to surgical extraction, and I don't find a pull from eternity, Delver gets there
Game 3: Mana denial, I lose to surgical, Delver gets there.
2-3, I drop.
Tournament notes:
-graft diggers cage is pretty good, I want a back up plan like sb show and tell.
-Silence is very good, and could be used proactively to keep threats from being cast to buy time while digging.
-Considering Annul because it hits graft diggers cage and rest in peace
-Cabal Therapy should be used aggressively to find surgical extraction/hate post board.
-I found I won more games with Gitaxian Probe in the deck, than sided out.
-Rug is a tough match up, Pull from eternity should be 3 cards minimum.
-Helm is a very tough match up. Mulling is especially important here.
Or.. you can just play show and tell. I mean honestly I've played against this deck a lot in the past few days and it just seems to be a worse re-animator IMO.
Re-animator is a Tool box deck, Tin Fins is a combo deck.
I found flaws, it was frustrating to lose to delver attacks, even with aggressive mulligan. Also my match ups were unfavorable. 1 Miracle/Helm, 1 Show and Tell, 3 RUG Thresh.
The deck has merit and is still in its infancy. I wouldn't be so quick to write it off. Its getting some play, and its learning what hate it has to deal with. The next step is to see how evolves in response/adapts to hate.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
2 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Reanimate
2 Chrome Mox
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Show and Tell
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
The second Children and the Emrakul can be cut for boarding (though I don't cut Emrakul if I'm bringing S&T in), but they add much consistency to the main deck and I would not remove them from there. I don't run Probe because I found the pain to be too great and would rather run the full discard suite. Finally, the sideboard admittedly sucks, though I wholeheartedly recommend the 4 S&Ts and some number of Decays. Two Needles could be OK, but I basically never used the Needles or Extractions on the day. Here's the report:
Round 1 - RIP/Helm: Rest in peace indeed. I end up drawing here, which is not bad for what on paper obviously looks like our worst matchup. Game one he searches for and plays RIP. I don't remember if I'd attempted to combo off before it but regardless, I'm one turn away from hardcasting Griselbrand when he savagely peels Helm off the top for the win. Because magic is a game of skill.
Game two I think I attempt to go off turn one and my reanimation is countered; turn two I peel another one and go off. Because magic is a game of skill. Game three I punt away. I cast Reanimate on Griselbrand and have to wait til next turn to combo off. He has Counterbalance out so when I cast Reanimate into it I see a Force on top. He draws the Force and passes. I swing, then draw 14. I have an Abrupt Decay and a Thoughtseize in hand. I try Thoughtseize for the Force and he flips Brainstorm off Counterbalance. If I Decay that first I probably win. It ends when I can't finish him, he Swords's my Griz on his turn, and we go to turns. In turns I attempt to Show and Tell a Griselbrand and he blind flips (off a new Counterbalance; I obviously Decay'd the other one) a random Entreat. FML. I wouldn't have been able to win but maybe could have convinced him to scoop with Griz in play. Instead we draw. I'm feeling good after almost getting there in the worst MU.
Round 2 - Jund: Game one he goes first, I go off my turn one; he scoops on seeing Griz (not a terrible move in the draw bracket I guess). Game two I mull to 5 (I mull a lot that day as a whole. I won't always mention it. Welcome to playing a 13 land deck). He gets two Shaman going active and my mull is bad so I have no chance. He tells me after the match that he had a Mindbreak Trap in hand and would've hardcast it with the Shamans if need be. Game three I cast Reanimate on Griz turn one and he scoops.
Round 3 - U/R Delver: For budgetary reasons, he has only one Force of Will in the deck. I win the first game easily as all I see from him is a Mountain and a Goblin Guide. Game two he comes out with double Relic, but at one point casts a Delver with only two lands in play. My turn I play a reanimation spell, he cracks a Relic in response, I cast my second reanimation spell in response, and he loses because he cast that Delver. We play a third as well and he keeps all burn in hopes of putting me too low to go off; I make him discard a Bolt turn 1 and go off turn 2.
Round 4 - BUG?: This is the only match where my memory completely fails me. My notes say that I won game one and game three, and that at one point his hand had a Flusterstorm, Force, and four land in it including a Creeping Tar Pit. I do remember that game (game three) taking the Force and using a Dark Ritual to pay for Flusterstorm. That involved a little math and I was very proud of myself, haha.
Round 5 - Maverick: Game one he goes first, GSZ for Dryad Arbor. I cast one of two Thoughtseizes in hand and see Thalia, Teeg, Mom, Jitte, Fauna Shaman. At first I think I audibly say "oh crap" but he apparently does not pick up on this, so I take Thalia as the less obvious of the two hate cards. Second turn he rips Hierarch and plays Hierarch and Mom. Turn two I Thoughtseize Teeg away. He probably knows he's screwed since I took the anti-combo card and not, like, Jitte, so turn three he swings for two with exalted Arbor in a last-ditch attempt to do some damage, but I go off unhampered on my turn three. Game two he goes first, accelerates mana with something, I go, nothing too relevant, he goes turn two Knight (guess he didn't want to mull to hate), I go Reanimate on Griselbrand, eventually I draw 7, swing, draw 7, go up to 26 with Children and combo out.
Round 6 - Esper Stoneblade: There's about two hours between that match and my next one and I'm only slightly exaggerating. Not to blame this for my loss here; my opponent Bernie is a hell of a magic player and I hope to be half as good someday. He also is playing a deck that can attack me with discard and counters, and his deck is full of foils and black bordered foreign duals. OK, enough about that. Game one it looks like I start with a Thoughtseize and go off turn two. My Thoughtseize took a Spell Pierce and that was his only protection. Game two I Thoughtseize him and see two Forces, Jace, Stoneforge, Wasteland, Snapcaster. I don't remember what happens but I'm unable to fight through all of that after probably taking a Force. He beats me down with Batterskull and Stoneforge. Game three I keep a terrible seven with Chrome Mox as my only mana, no blue cards, and an Entomb. I don't remember if i even had a reanimation spell, but I didn't have the mana to play it or the cards to dig for it, or the blue to play those cards if I'd drawn them. I Thoughtseize him after he plays his Stoneforge but he counters it and is able to get the Batterskull down again, if I remember correctly. He also Cliques me and my hand is so bad he lets me keep it. I probably lost this matchup due to a combination of being outplayed, him having the answers, and keeping bad hands.
Round 7 - Esper Stoneblade: Finally I'm feeling the pain of being in the draw bracket. This one was more of a tilt/misplay loss, at least game one. He basically hits me with a Thoughtseize turn one, counters all of what I want to do, and I finally resolve a Reanimate on Griz but he plays Jace and bounces it. I could've potentially grinded it out; probably would've lost it anyway but going from 15 to 7 at my own hand didn't help. Worst part is I knew he had the Jace, and I may have even knew he had the land. I also got so lazy/tilty that I stopped writing down what he had off my Thoughtseizes, clearly willing to throw away this great record I was lucky to have. Aaaaaaanyway, then there was game two, and this happened:
Because I'm an idiot. So of course my kind friend Doug would like me to take a moment to remind you:
I also lost game two, unsurprisingly, mostly from getting my cantrips countered, and having my Show and Tells and Griselbrands Extracted.
Round 8 - Sneak Attack: After that match I decided I wasn't losing another one, at least not to myself. Game one I attempt a Thoughtseize and he Dazes it, and I go off without seeing anything more from him. Game two is more of the same; he Brainstorms in response to my Thoughtseize, then Dazes it, then I go off next turn. I'm not sure what he had or if that line made any sense, or if he was protecting his pieces, but he's so much slower than me that I think he should just try to counter me and then go off.
Round 9 - Sneak Attack: After that less stress-free match, I'm pretty psyched to see another Volcanic Island come down. Game one I start with fetchland, Dark Ritual, Entomb. He counters it. I cast a second Entomb. It resolves. I cast Reanimate targeting Griselbrand. Yeah, it was pretty dumb luck, but after this long day I'll take it. I try to go off but end up just winning off Griselbrand attacks. Game two is pretty funny, at least from my perspective. My hand is two land, Dark Rit, Entomb, three reanimation effects. I attempt a turn one Ritual, to which he says "I'm not falling for this again" and counters it. I'm pretty sure countering Entomb is always correct unless you have graveyard hate in hand or on board, BUT he tried that last game and it didn't work so this time he counters the Rit. I wait a turn, peel a Petal and go off on my turn two. AND, for the grand finale, and for the first time today, I go through the whole deck a few times and hardcast Emrakul. Because Emrakul.
Sorry for that wall of text, folks, but there's my SCG experience in a nutshell with the deck. I had a ton of fun and felt like it had game against anything, though obviously my kryptonite is good magic players piloting Stoneblade. Would be glad to get feedback, answer questions, etc.
Props:
St. Elmo's forever and always
Doug, for those great pictures as well as selling me many cards for the deck, and loaning me 4x Show and Tell
Marriott Hotel, for cleaning up that room
Slops:
Staying up til 4:30am Saturday night for no reason
No practice
Being 33rd on tiebreakers. Specifically, being the one out of twelve people with my record that was not in the top 32. D:
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
I've been playing this deck as well but the meta hasn't been right for me.
Have you seen the necrotic ooze version?
thoughts?
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
There is a posting on The Source, titled "Oozing". It's effectively an older variant of the Necrotic Ooze / Triskelion / Phyrexian Devourer deck using some of the same enablers as Tin Fins. It's a bit slower, and can play with Force of Will; thus making it slightly stronger in some matchups, but less explosive (which is often a benefit in Legacy).
5x SCG Legacy Open T8
16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
Check out my Legacy stream
15x Swamp
Discard
3x Unmask
1x Thoughtseize
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Gitaxian Probe
Creatures
3x Griselbrand
2x Children of Korlis
1x Emrakul, of the Aeons Torn
4x Lotus Petal
2x Mox Chrome
4x Dark Ritual
Reanimation
4x Shallow Grave
2x Goyro's Vengeance
1x Reanimate
4x Entomb
1x Spoils of the Vault
Storm
1x Tendrils of Agony
Gravehate / Combo
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Helm of Obedience
Mono-black seems like it could work though. You could just add consistency with more Goryo's', Reanimates, max out on Probes and Grizzes... or you could add the 'Oozing' combo linked above by ruckus/Koby. It looks pretty awesome actually; probably the road I'd take were I going mono-black.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
I added Leyline because in my playgroup about a quarter of us use graveyard strategies and many of those that don't board in Rest in Peace. I figured for my area having the Oops I win factor off the bat is worth main decking to me. Extra Leylines pitch to Unmask. If they see Helm game one it makes them think about the otherwise obvious boarding in of Rest in Peace. In most areas I would guess this is probably wrong, but it has provided me with additional "keep" hands that go off on turn one that other wise should not keep, like: Leyline of the Void, Lotus Petal, Unmask, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Leyline of the Void, Helm of Obedience.
I had that on the play against BUG Agent.
He Mulls to 6 to get Force of Will (I assume)
Leyline of the Void into play.
Unmask pitching Leyline of the Void.
Force of Will. (Opponent has 4 cards in hand, no permanents)
Lotus Petal -> Dark Ritual -> Dark Ritual -> Helm of Obedience, activate, win.
In another game against Death and Taxes (game two with Ethersworn Canonist in play) I started the game with a Leyline, and end of his turn cast Spoils of the Vault (almost killing myself, this card is very risky) got the Helm, and my turn cast it off my built up permanent-based mana base and won. Their Enlightened Tutor -> Ethersworn Canonist, or Rest in Peace made me leave this secondary wincon in.
2 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Silence
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
2 Silence
2 Pull from Eternity
2 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Teferi's Realm
The first event was a 9 person event. The rounds were:
Jund 2-1
Tin Fins Mirror 2-1 (Vengeancing my own Griselbrand in response to his attacking Griselbrand was funny, especially since he hard Reanimated his.)
Burn 2-0
Nic-Fit 2-0
The Tin Fins mirror was only a ~95% mirror. His list didn't include white and had more Gitaxian Probes and Careful Study.
I don't recall the specifics of my sideboarding other than I never sided in Needles. I never felt I needed them. There weren't any RIP decks in the room, so I didn't need to side in Realm either, as much as I wanted to. I was siding in Silence quite a bit and siding Probe out every match.
The second event was a 10 person event. The rounds were:
Jund 2-1
Tin Fins Mirror 0-2
Lands (with maindecked Chalice) 0-2
Goblins 2-1
While not the same person, the Tin Fins mirror was similarly lacking white, included Careful Study, and more Probes.
Against Lands, I should have conceded game 1 sooner (Chalice at 1 preventing me from looping Emrakul to get enough mana to Tendrils for a whole lot). I could have won game 2 had I not punted with Teferi's Realm (oddly relevant against Lands no less). If I had discarded Griselbrand to his Raven's Crime, I could have floated mana in my upkeep, name lands for Realm to turn off Karakas and company and proceed to get there, but I chucked irrelevant things instead. Punt indeed. I think I could have turned the match around had I not done that. The loss to the Tin Fins list was just due to him drawing better. The funniest part about the match was that Griselbrand was hardcast 3 times, one of which was me hardcasting mine to legend rule his hardcast Griselbrand. From there, he was able to recover faster than I could.
As far as sideboarding goes, again, I never boarded Needles in and again, I never felt I needed them. Silence was good, and Pull was useful as well. I did get to use Teferi's Realm against Lands and it seemed good. Had I not punted like I said above, it would have swung game 2 for me. There were games where I sided Chain in expecting permanent based hate (Crypt/Relic/Spellbomb/Leyline) and only saw spell based hate. In those cases, for game 3, I sided Silence in for Chain and it was ok. This is part of the reason why I want get the 4th Silence in the 75 somewhere. It could be a local metagame thing, but I'm tempted to cut Needles for other things.
Other thoughts:
1) I know it's 61 cards. I didn't really like the Probes, so if pushed, I would cut them both for another Silence to get to 60. Either that or -2 Probes +1 Silence +1 Therapy/1 mana disruption that can target myself.
2) I run 14 lands to make more hands keepable. Depending on how many Wastelands I expect at an event, the Island could become Underground Sea number 3.
3) I really like having Children of Korlis number 2 in the deck. It really feels like it's what puts the deck over the top and virtually guarantees inevitability. In some situations where I need more cards to side out, it would be the fifth card to side out after 2 Probes, a Griselbrand, and Chrome Mox number 2 (unless I felt I needed the extra mana).
@rukcus: What are your thoughts on Serenity vs. Teferi's Realm? It is nice that Serenity can handle multiple kinds of hate at once, but since it telegraphs, a smart opponent wouldn't play anymore hate until after it pops (unlike that Ground Seal from Enchantress :D) leading to a 1-for-1 most of the time. I like Realm better since it can help over a longer term, but only dealing with 1 kind of hate can be an issue. What is your experience?
Ideally you're not going to cast Serenity until you're ready to go for the kill, but have multiple pieces preventing you from going off. Once it pops, you have a clear shot to Entomb/Reanimate to victory on the same turn.
5x SCG Legacy Open T8
16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
Check out my Legacy stream
That makes sense. To you, is the marginal upside of dealing with more than 2 types of cards worth the higher curve and color concentration of Teferi's Realm versus Serenity?
1W - 2 cmc
1UU - 3 cmc
With this deck playing only 13-14 lands, the 3 cmc is really hard to get reliably, let alone a double off-color mana cost.
Furthermore, it deals with both sets of cards that stop this deck:
Leyline of the Void / Rest in Peace & Chalice of the Void / Tormod's Crypt / Relic of Progenitus
Serenity has more applications and a cheaper cost; thus why I prefer to use it.
5x SCG Legacy Open T8
16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
Check out my Legacy stream