Has anyone else had any success against 12-Post? I played against it this weekend and felt like it was a difficult matchup at best. They have access to instant speed Bojuka Bogs with Crop Rotation, maindecked Pithing Needles, and Chalice with the mana to make it go to 3 really easily. Show and Tell gives them good pressure with Eldrazi/Titans. I lost 1-2. Maybe I had weak hands, but I just felt like I couldn't do anything to win the match.
I sided in Silences to combat Crop Rotation and Mindbreak Trap and Serenity for Pithing Needle and Chalice. I think it's a good sideboard strategy, but they can present multiple avenues of hate starting on turn 1. Anyone have some insight I might be missing?
so been play testing tinfins a lot recently as I plan on playing it at the legacy gp and I'm trying to find a line of play that beats chalice on 1 game 1 I realize u can entomb griselberand in response or u can discard him at eot with 8 cards but even if u get him in play and do manage to draw say 21 u can't play children you can't play rituals and likely IR not gonna get 4 petals and tendrils is there a line I'm missing or are u on the swing draw sculpt a good hand to repeat next turn then try to kill with a tendrils am I missing something
Chalice @ 1 is very hard to deal with in Game 1. All forcible methods to discarding or binning all cost 1 mana. The only spells not costing 1 mana are Lim-dul's Vault, Shallow Grave, and Goryo's Vengeance (outside of kill conditions). If you naturally have the Tendrils of Agony, then you can play into the Chalice to build storm; but failing that, you should scoop and give away as little information as possible.
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16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
The sideboard wasn't what I'd hoped to use. The evening before the event I put in an order for 3 Massacre and 2 Serenity for pickup at the store. I got the e-mail from their inventory system confirming, but when I arrived on site, they weren't going to arrive until 6pm. I probably overlooked some disclaimer language to that effect, but it was disappointing nonetheless. I had brought some other spare sideboard cards to adapt to some of the better known players based on who showed up, so some went from "maybe" to "I guess I'm running these". Those were the Teferi's Realm, Mindbreak Trap, and Ratchet Bomb. In retrospect, the Ratchet Bombs were fine, even good. The other three cards did nothing, though the Traps may have if I'd drawn them.
My final record was 4-1, finishing 1st after the Swiss rounds. Everyone in the top 8 wanted to split, so $125 each and we were on our way (no one cared to play it out for the points either, but the 8 seed conceded to me before leaving).
Round 1 vs. Esper Stoneblade piloted by Jeff
This one was quick. I won the roll and combo'd off on turn two to end the first game and turn three to end the second. Probes stayed in, but I took out Ponders for Silences and Needles expecting counters and having seen Deathrite Shaman as his only play in game one. In the second game I had a first turn Needle to his (again) first turn Deathrite and he had a really rough turn two Thoughtseize, seeing two Entomb, a Shallow Grave, and a Vengeance (redundancy for both combo pieces).
Round 2 vs. 4-Color Loam piloted by Josh
This was a tough match. He won the roll and game one started off with him landing an early Chalice of the Void with X=1. I had kept my 7 with a Griselbrand, a Ritual, and a Vengeance, and had discarded him on turn 1 to set up a second turn combo, but the Chalice stuck me on mana when he followed up with Devastating Dreams and my Rituals were dead. I considered scooping, but found an out by casting Therapy into the Chalice to get it in the graveyard. Shallow Grave, draw 14, and then get Griselbrand back into the yard by paying Therapy's flashback cost (again, getting countered by the Chalice). Rinse and repeat over the next two turns and that's game 1.
In one of my draw steps this game, two cards stuck together. I stopped short of putting them into my hand, but did see the bottom one. I called the judge, he issued a warning for looking at extra cards (LAEC), shuffle the extra seen card in, and move on.
Game 2 he landed another second-turn Chalice on 1, but I had mulled aggressively. I was looking for either a turn-1 winning hand, a Therapy to strip any Chalices, or a sideboard piece. I found a Ratchet Bomb and mana on the mull to five. Waited until I could cast the Bomb, kill the Chalice, and combo off in the same turn, and it came together around turn 5.
R3 vs. Doomsday piloted by Johnathan
I'd faced Johnathan at the Legacy Challenge at GP Oakland (where I went 6-2 with this deck, finishing 9th of 96), and I remembered he was a combo player, but forgot which combo. I also remembered that he'd talked about Mindbreak Trap being a problem for him.
I won the roll and combo'd on turn one of the first game with land, Ritual, Therapy discarding Griselbrand, Shallow Grave. Griselbrand's first activation found me a Probe, and Johnathan conceded as soon as I cast it, concealing his deck choice almost completely.
SB: -4 Ponder, +2 Silence, +2 Mindbreak Trap (because Probe felt like it would be relevant for game three and I expected we'd be playing a third game).
Game two was bad. I kept a decent hand but it was one Duress away from being terrible and his first turn play was, well, Duress. I durdled through a few turns naming terrible cards with Therapy in succession. I took out one Doomsday with a Thoughtseize, but it still left him with a LED and Burning Wish, so it was more or less pointless. A turn or two later his Tendrils ended the game.
SB: -4 Probe, +2 Pact of Negation, +2 Ratchet Bomb... not sure if anything would have helped here. Maybe this was a mistake as I just needed to race and should have kept the card that says "play with fewer cards in your deck" rather than "maybe you kill a LED if you're lucky and he misplays".
Game three was also rough. His Duresses were still good and my Therapies were still bad (he answered each one with a Brainstorm and three iterations got a total of 1 cards). Children of Korlis made their only appearance on the day by flashing back one Therapy to no effect and buying me a permanentless turn. I was at 16, he untapped his Shelldock Isle and cast Emrakul. He attacked in the extra turn and I floated mana to cast Shallow Grave after the Annihilate trigger resolved. I went from 16 to 1 to 16, but it mostly did nothing. Cabal Therapy is just a tough card to play correctly, and it's an area for me to improve on. I'll still keep at least one Children in the deck, but the second seems like a wasted slot.
Round 4 vs. RUG Delver piloted by Matt
We'd sat next to each other in one of the previous rounds, and I'd watched Matt wipe the floor with one of CFB's resident Judges, Mark Bush, by blind-flipping Delvers on turns 2, 3, and 4 of one game. It's common for Tin Fins to fall below 4 life after a couple Griselbrand activations, so I was extra-aware of staying out of Lightning Bolt range.
Game 1 went quickly as I mulled to 5 to get one combo piece, a land, and two spells to dig for the other half. The Brainstorm + Ponder got there and a Probe on turn 4 verified that his shields were down.
SB: +2 Silence, +1 Pull from Eternity, -1 Children of Korlis, -2 Ponder
I kept my 7, which included two Entombs, a dual, a fetch, a Chrome Mox, a Probe, and a Thoughtseize. He led with a Wasteland, but I fetched my Swamp and he seemed pretty unhappy about it. My first turn, though, I forgot to draw for the turn. I was just running on autopilot, getting the Probe out to see why he'd led with the Wasteland, and thinking getting the Swamp rather than a dual. My opponent from the previous round, Johnathan, noticed it and called the judge. Count up all the cards, notice I am indeed one short, and it's fairly obvious. It's a warning, but a game rule violation (GRV), not a missed trigger. Your opponent doesn't get to choose whether you draw for the turn, you just draw. Still, it was a warning for me. The additional draw was a fetch, so it didn't do a whole lot.
My Thoughtseize revealed he was holding two Spell Pierces, but I took a Stifle over either, because activating Griselbrand felt more important and Spell Pierce is something you can play around without too much trouble. He also helped me out by using his only blue source to Pierce my Chrome Mox when both of my lands were up. One Entomb got imprinted and the other resolved. A few turns later Griselbrand put him to 8 life and Tendrils finished the job, one of just three Tendrils-based game wins of the 9 games won on the day.
Round 5 vs. Robots piloted by Chris
Tables 1, 2, and 3 all drew into T8, and I maybe could have, but Chris definitely couldn't (whichever of the 7-pointers who won would have kicked him to ninth).
Chris and I knew what each other were playing, having been side-by-side at least two of the earlier rounds. He won the roll.
I started out by shuffling my whole sideboard into my deck. I noticed it in my opening hand, called the judge, and he gave me the appropriate deck/decklist problem infraction and downgrade to a warning (because I'd called it on myself and I hadn't made any plays), forced mull to 6. Chris also mulled to 6 and kept.
My 6 was a nut draw, with Therapy, Shallow Grave, Ritual, Ponder, Petal, and Griselbrand. I swung with Griselbrand and Emrakul on turn one.
SB: +2 Ratchet Bomb, +2 Echoing Truth, -1 Children, -2 Ponder, -1 Probe. From the earlier matches I'd seen, I knew one of his SB answers was Canonist, but didn't remember the other details.
Game two I keep my seven with Probe, Ratchet Bomb, Ritual, a dual, a fetch, and Vengeance.
His first turn is Ancient Den, Ornithopter, Mox Opal, Ethersworn Canonist. Ouch.
Mine is fetch, ritual, Ratchet Bomb.
Turn two he plays an Ornithopter and taps the Opal for a Thoughtcast. Then he plays another Opal, bins the tapped one, and taps the new one to Thoughtcast again. I immediately stop him and call the judge. Simple rewind and warning, and we're back in business. Charge the Bomb at his EOT. It took discipline to not just get 3-for-1 and hit both Ornithopters and the Opal, but killing the Canonist felt more important.
The next couple turns were just him swinging with the Canonist and me charging the Bomb to 2 and then killing it on his third attack. I hit an Entomb in those couple draws. The turn after the Bomb kills the Canonist, Emrakul clears his board and puts him to 5.
He extended a hand when Emrakul swung, but I didn't think he realized he was just at 5, not dead. I had 2 lands and my hand and graveyard were empty, and he still had 3-4 cards. I needed 3 perfect draws to finish him and he may very well have pulled it out. He pulled back the offer and we tried a couple more turns but he still wasn't hitting any land, so conceded. If we'd played it out, I'm not sure I would have finished him off before he recovered, but I suppose things were still pretty tilted in my favor.
Final record 4-1, first place in a field of 29. Top 8 split, good for $125 store credit apiece. Final warning count: 3, all in different areas of the IPG, so no upgrades (1 GRV, 1 D/DLP, 1 LAEC).
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I was hoping for a sorcery speed "bounce target permanent" but the only ones I could find for the 15th SB spot cost double blue or too much mana. I don't know what I'd include as I only made my version tonight.
1. It has no way to win on the same turn once Griselbrand makes it into play. Tendrils of Agony probably accounts for 33%-50% of the same-turn wins.
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one of just three Tendrils-based game wins of the 9 games won on the day.
2. It is more vulnerable to Karakas, Jace, StP, Maze of Ith, etc
3. It has more difficult time against Tempo decks that feature a high quantity of counters. Silence in the UB/w version shines in that respect.
(4.) It cannot generate enough mana to hard-cast Emrakul for the extra turn effect.
Ultimately, the Br version looks like a weaker Sneak & Show deck rather than Tin Fins.
Remember that the whole point with Tin Fins is to "break" Griselbrand to the point of banning it. This version cannot get close to abusing Griselbrand in the same way as the previous lists.
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Twitter - @MTGKoby | MODO - Koby 5x SCG Legacy Open T8
16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
I played in a GPT for DC this past weekend at Eudemonia in Berkeley with the same list as I posted previously (5 posts above this or so) with minor changes.
20 people showed up, so 5 rounds plus a cut to top 8. My final record was 4-2 (before scooping a friend into the finals where the other guy scooped to him as he was the only guy going to the GP). I won't go round-by-round with a full report like last time, but here are the basics:
R1 loss to Merfolk (he had 3 counters - 2 soft and 1 FOW - and I couldn't get through the third)
R2 loss to RUG Delver (Phillip Yam, with a GP Top 16 in his past, also the guy I scooped to in the semis)
R3 win vs Miracles (hand disruption was key)
R4 win vs. ANT (the friendliest match I played all day, we both left our hands up after probes etc, just a genuinely nice guy. Mindbreak Trap was absolutely clutch here.)
R5 win vs Death & Taxes (through a T1 Karakas in G2)
QF win vs the R1 Merfolk player (sweet revenge!)
Good for $100 in store credit. Next event is at CFB in a couple weeks!
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TOURNAMENT REPORT
Round 1 VS Mono Blue Stasis
Not much to tell on this one. Game 1 I went for it and on turn 2 and he had a Daze to stop me from going off. Then on turn 3 I went for the combo again and he had nothing to stop me so I won on that turn. Game 2 I probed his hand and say that he had 6 lands and 1 Stasis in had, so I combo-ed on turn 1 and finished this one up quickly.
WIN 2-0
Round 2 VS Led-Dredge
I cast Thoughtseize on turn 1 and pulled his LED out of his hand, which slowed him way down and I was able to combo on turn 3 and won game 1. Game 2 went pretty much the same way with Thoughtseize slowing him down enough for me to get my combo going.
WIN 2-0
Round 3 VS ANT Storm
Both games here were really short. I won the dice roll and probed his hand game 1 to see he was on storm, then proceeded to combo turn 1 and proceed to win the game. Then game 2 was basically the same as he played probed my hand and passed turn and then I combo-ed turn 1 and won the game.
WIN 2-0
Round 4 VS ANT Storm
We agreed to draw this as it would lock both of us into the top 8
Round 5 VS LED-Dredge
We agreed to draw this as it would lock us into the top 4 seats of the top 8.
Quarterfinals VS LED-Dredge
Game 1 I was able to combo in the early turns and just win the game straight out. Game 2 he drops Leyline of the Void and starts dredging and using Cabal Therapy to pull Entombs out of my hand. After a kind of long game I end up finding my combo pieces and use Chain of Vapor to bounce the leyline and proceed to grab Emrakul and swing for the win.
WIN 2-0
Semifinals VS ANT Storm
Game 1 I end up comb-ing on turn 1-2 and win the game quickly. Game 2 he ends up using therapys to keep pulling combo pieces out of my hand until he goes for Empty the Warrens (because I had Children of Korlis in play to prevent him from going for Tendrils of Agony) and aggros me out for game 2. Game 3 I combo on turn 3 and after probing my hand he scoops and says good game.
WIN 2-1
Finals VS Reanimator
My friend was the one playing reanimator and due to a mixture of being tired and starving lol, he decided to scoop to me so that we could go ahead and get out of there.
THOUGHTS/CHANGES:
Against Dredge and Storm I think we're just a lot faster combo deck so we should be able to just win before they can. Against the counter decks I think we may have a bit of an uphill fight but if you have the turn 1 I think you go for it and see if they fail the Force of Will check. Reanimator is a bit of a bad matchup I think, or at least from the testing my group has done it seems that way. The main reason I think behind this is that they can reanimate Griselbrand and then more or less just dig for a counterspell when we try to combo on our turn. I'm thinking about seeing if I can fix this by going with -1 Pithing Needle, -2 Surgical Extraction and adding 3 Leyline of the Void to the deck. This would force them to go the show and tell route, which I think is just better for us. Although I am a little bit worried that by cutting the Pithing Needles that Deathrite Shaman may become a giant threat. I'm definitely open to any suggestions or ideas about this one.
It looks like you got great match-ups all day. We are definitely faster than both Storm and Dredge, so those tend to be easy match-ups. I usually bring in Chain of Vapor/Surgical versus Dredge and Silence versus Storm to either bounce their hate and disrupt their combo if I keep a slower hand.
Reanimator is a weird matchup- we're faster, but they have a lot of counterspells to disrupt us. Reanimate can hit any card in any graveyard, so doing Entomb and passing turn/not reanimating before their next turn can lead to some awkward situations. That being said, we have our own Reanimate, so sometimes we can steal games from them. We have the option of bringing in Surgical Extraction or Silence in against Reanimator, and I feel both are correct choices depending on whether or not you are on the play or draw. If I'm on the play, I'm going for Silence and hoping for a t1/2 protected kill. If on the draw, I'm bringing in Surgical to disrupt their plans. I don't like going for a long game versus Reanimator, their protection is reactive and they have more Reanimation targets that can shut down what we are doing.
I wouldn't recommend cutting Needle unless DRS, Karakas, and Scooze are missing from your meta. That card hits so many problem permanents that I don't want to leave home without 3 in my sideboard.
I highly recommend removing Pull From Eternity, that card does nothing and takes up valuable sideboard slots.
I also recommend swapping the 3 Chants for 3 Silence. Silence doesn't target, so you can't get it misdirected and it gets around Leyline of Sanctity, and the WW for Kicker is hard to hit and usually isn't worth it.
I can see swapping a Chain and a Surgical around, but Serenity, Massacre, and Needle tend to cover me on any permanent based hate, and when I want Surgical, I want to make sure I get it. In fact, I usually bring in Chain as a 1 of to supplement Serenity, Massacre, or Needle.
The lack of hatebears makes Massacre less appealing, but knowing my luck, as soon as I remove them, I'll play against hatebear decks and have slow hands and end up hating life.
Other thoughts, how do you like the deck without Ponder? It seems weird to not run it, and instead have Careful Study and an extra Children of Korlis. Careful Study seems pretty bad with 2 Griselbrand (even then, running multiple Griselbrand seem bad), and the selection that Ponder gives us is too good to ignore. Children of Korlis, while amazing when we get it mid combo, makes me sad every time I see it outside of the combo turn- a lot of us have been playing with 1 with success.
Keep in mind I'm running a 61 card deck, since the 61st card is either the 4th Probe or 14th land (I prefer both).
THOUGHTS/CHANGES:
Against Dredge and Storm I think we're just a lot faster combo deck so we should be able to just win before they can. Against the counter decks I think we may have a bit of an uphill fight but if you have the turn 1 I think you go for it and see if they fail the Force of Will check. Reanimator is a bit of a bad matchup I think, or at least from the testing my group has done it seems that way. The main reason I think behind this is that they can reanimate Griselbrand and then more or less just dig for a counterspell when we try to combo on our turn. I'm thinking about seeing if I can fix this by going with -1 Pithing Needle, -2 Surgical Extraction and adding 3 Leyline of the Void to the deck. This would force them to go the show and tell route, which I think is just better for us. Although I am a little bit worried that by cutting the Pithing Needles that Deathrite Shaman may become a giant threat. I'm definitely open to any suggestions or ideas about this one.
If you're running Leyline of the Void you should be running 4; if you can't find the room for that then go with extirpate or faerie macabre since both are "uncounterable."
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If you're running Leyline of the Void you should be running 4; if you can't find the room for that then go with extirpate or faerie macabre since both are "uncounterable."
Leyline is lackluster when Surgical Extraction and Extirpate both exist. I 1000000% DO NOT RECOMMEND FAERIE MACABRE. It interacts very very poorly with Shallow Grave. Surgical and Extirpate are identical, but I do prefer to be able to "Hail Mary" Brainstorm into Surgical in those matchups where I need it, and it being a "free" spell makes up for that type of play. In most situations, the 2 life won't matter. In some games, you can swap Probe for Surgical Extraction (Tempo & GY dependent decks) as it still provides knowledge of the hand while still being a free spell.
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16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
Other thoughts, how do you like the deck without Ponder? It seems weird to not run it, and instead have Careful Study and an extra Children of Korlis. Careful Study seems pretty bad with 2 Griselbrand (even then, running multiple Griselbrand seem bad), and the selection that Ponder gives us is too good to ignore. Children of Korlis, while amazing when we get it mid combo, makes me sad every time I see it outside of the combo turn- a lot of us have been playing with 1 with success.
Keep in mind I'm running a 61 card deck, since the 61st card is either the 4th Probe or 14th land (I prefer both).
I didn't miss the ponders too much. The Careful Studys helped with getting guys in my graveyard really often. I debated a lot on how many Children to run, I kinda wanted to go 1 but at the same time I really liked being able to hit them. They also really helped in the storm matchup to help buy time since they couldn't just tendrils me for the win. I'm not sure I understand why running more than 1 Griselbrand is bad, like for me running it as a 2 of seems right to help up your chances of finding one to get in your graveyard somehow. Several games I've ended up with him in my hands and just making myself discard him to combo off.
I also agree that Silence is better than Orim's Chant. I had a friend running my other Silences in his deck so I had to improvise lol.
What do you guys do for the reanimator matchup? That one seems to just be almost like we can't win that one if they're on the play or they keep a decent counter hand. Do we just hope they don't have the nuts?
Leyline is lackluster when Surgical Extraction and Extirpate both exist. I 1000000% DO NOT RECOMMEND FAERIE MACABRE. It interacts very very poorly with Shallow Grave. Surgical and Extirpate are identical, but I do prefer to be able to "Hail Mary" Brainstorm into Surgical in those matchups where I need it, and it being a "free" spell makes up for that type of play. In most situations, the 2 life won't matter. In some games, you can swap Probe for Surgical Extraction (Tempo & GY dependent decks) as it still provides knowledge of the hand while still being a free spell.
So, ummm...... Reanimator doesn't run shallow grave and he was posting for shoring up the reanimator match up not the tin fins one. Reading is OP but thanks for the caps lock bolded scream chat.
Also - Faerie Macabre is only weaker than extirpate/surgical when they have an extra entomb and mana to cast it - doesn't seem like there would be many cases where that'd be relevant from a Tin Fin's player perspective as you're more likely to go off before your reanimator opponent - who is for some reason running shallow grave - has 3+ mana available to them AND a spare entomb in hand. Playing around Force, daze, spell pierce seems more relevant than the extra entomb scenario.....
Also - surgical and extirpate aren't identitcal at all - one is uncounterable and the other isn't - which again seems more relevant against reanimator (much less likely for turn 1 shenanigans) than the turn 0 appeal of surgical. when talking about reanimator.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus View Post
Leyline is lackluster when Surgical Extraction and Extirpate both exist. I 1000000% DO NOT RECOMMEND FAERIE MACABRE. It interacts very very poorly with Shallow Grave. Surgical and Extirpate are identical, but I do prefer to be able to "Hail Mary" Brainstorm into Surgical in those matchups where I need it, and it being a "free" spell makes up for that type of play. In most situations, the 2 life won't matter. In some games, you can swap Probe for Surgical Extraction (Tempo & GY dependent decks) as it still provides knowledge of the hand while still being a free spell.
So, ummm...... Reanimator doesn't run shallow grave and he was posting for shoring up the reanimator match up not the tin fins one. Reading is OP but thanks for the caps lock bolded scream chat.
Also - Faerie Macabre is only weaker than extirpate/surgical when they have an extra entomb and mana to cast it - doesn't seem like there would be many cases where that'd be relevant from a Tin Fin's player perspective as you're more likely to go off before your reanimator opponent - who is for some reason running shallow grave - has 3+ mana available to them AND a spare entomb in hand. Playing around Force, daze, spell pierce seems more relevant than the extra entomb scenario.....
Also - surgical and extirpate aren't identitcal at all - one is uncounterable and the other isn't - which again seems more relevant against reanimator (much less likely for turn 1 shenanigans) than the turn 0 appeal of surgical. when talking about reanimator.
I think what he meant is that if you're running Faerie Macabre that it interferes with casting Shallow Grave afterwards.
I think what he meant is that if you're running Faerie Macabre that it interferes with casting Shallow Grave afterwards.
Because it gives you a secondary creature if:
1). Your opponent removes your fatty
and
2). You don't have another thing to bin
instead of just letting shallow grave fizzle you nab a 2/2 flyer... Still not seeing much of a downside. I mean - how often does the deck need to entomb - pass the turn and then wait to shallow grave? If your opp is playing full G/Y removal it's a moot point. I'm still seeing the only down side as when you're playing against targeted GY removal, your opponent removes your target - AND your spell would have fizzled in the first place....
I suppose if your early reanimation spell was countered - and then you drew into another shallow grave after you used faerie macabre and without having another way to bin a creature - then it could be a downside - but that seems like it's a fairly situational occurrence and even then - it's all moot when you have a fatty in hand + discard outlet or an entomb or if you have goryo's vengeance. Just seems like there are plenty of ways around getting locked into nabbing macabre "accidentally."
Either way - I stand by extirpate >>>>> surgical extraction against reanimator because their turn 1 reanimation is around 30% at most - considering mulligans which means about 1/6 games you won't get to see 1 mana - factoring in a ~ 50% who goes first ratio. And while they sacrifice speed - they gain tempo ala Force of Will + Daze - and games 2/3 (when SB 'yard hate is relevant) they will most likely ship hands without permission - even opting for slower hands specifically because Tin Fins is a faster deck. You're going to need to play through permission games 2/3 either by redundant reanimation spells in the first place (also plays around macabre) or by having un-counterable hate.
So, ummm...... Reanimator doesn't run shallow grave and he was posting for shoring up the reanimator match up not the tin fins one. Reading is OP but thanks for the caps lock bolded scream chat.
Also - Faerie Macabre is only weaker than extirpate/surgical when they have an extra entomb and mana to cast it - doesn't seem like there would be many cases where that'd be relevant from a Tin Fin's player perspective as you're more likely to go off before your reanimator opponent - who is for some reason running shallow grave - has 3+ mana available to them AND a spare entomb in hand. Playing around Force, daze, spell pierce seems more relevant than the extra entomb scenario.....
Also - surgical and extirpate aren't identitcal at all - one is uncounterable and the other isn't - which again seems more relevant against reanimator (much less likely for turn 1 shenanigans) than the turn 0 appeal of surgical. when talking about reanimator.
I have read the post, and I'm saying from experience and from strategic stand-point -- Faerie Macabre and Leyline of the Void are very weak SB cards and do little to a) fight Reanimator while at the same time b) helping you win.
Reanimator also doesn't run Faerie Macabre or Leyline, they rarely run g/y hate, and when they do it's usually Surgical Extraction or Coffin Purge.
Shallow Grave'ing a Faerie Macabre is as useful as a screen door on a submarine. Congrats, you have a 2/2 with haste. Please exile it at the end of turn. You've dealt 2 damage! Woohoo! #value
I recommend anyone playing Tin Fins to start with my list, play it until you're familiar with what hands to keep and how to play matchups. Then, if you're still unsatisfied (which I still haven't been), feel free to tinker with the list. Versions with Careful Study are inherently weaker and slower. Versions with 2 Children of Korlis are still using it as a crutch. Versions with Pull from Eternity in the SB need to stop looking at March 2013 results for a basis of a decklist.
I think you're misunderstanding my post completely.
As for Surgical vs Extraction -- I'd rather have the free spell 99% of the time rather than "uncounterable". The purpose of this sideboard slot is to fight equally fast combo decks that rely on g/y, such as Dredge, Rogue Hermit, TES/ANT, and Reanimator. Waiting until your Turn 1 to enable g/y hate is making this sideboard slot useless.
I have read the post, and I'm saying from experience and from strategic stand-point -- Faerie Macabre and Leyline of the Void are very weak SB cards and do little to a) fight Reanimator while at the same time b) helping you win.
Reanimator also doesn't run Faerie Macabre or Leyline, they rarely run g/y hate, and when they do it's usually Surgical Extraction or Coffin Purge.
Shallow Grave'ing a Faerie Macabre is as useful as a screen door on a submarine. Congrats, you have a 2/2 with haste. Please exile it at the end of turn. You've dealt 2 damage! Woohoo! #value
I recommend anyone playing Tin Fins to start with my list, play it until you're familiar with what hands to keep and how to play matchups. Then, if you're still unsatisfied (which I still haven't been), feel free to tinker with the list. Versions with Careful Study are inherently weaker and slower. Versions with 2 Children of Korlis are still using it as a crutch. Versions with Pull from Eternity in the SB need to stop looking at March 2013 results for a basis of a decklist.
I think you're misunderstanding my post completely.
As for Surgical vs Extraction -- I'd rather have the free spell 99% of the time rather than "uncounterable". The purpose of this sideboard slot is to fight equally fast combo decks that rely on g/y, such as Dredge, Rogue Hermit, TES/ANT, and Reanimator. Waiting until your Turn 1 to enable g/y hate is making this sideboard slot useless.
Think I figured it out - I understand your post, and I completely agree, especially the bolded text. Looking at the original post I added context; I was reading it more as the reanimator guy at my LGS is hard to beat, please help, so my suggestions were narrow and "off the wall."
In general though - I'd say that surgical extraction is by far and above better than extirpate and the best choice. Specifically against reanimator, though I feel like extirpate is a stronger card because they frequently fight hate with permission. The real trick though is that against reanimator Tin Fins is the beat down deck. Rean. can't match the speed of Tin Fins and is thus forced to be the control deck - which means they're more likely to keep/sculpt slower more controlling hands instead of explosive hands. Knowing that they will play slower and that you'll have access to mana - makes extirpate a plausible choice against reanimator. Also - due to the symetrical effect of show and tell and exhume - Tin Fins actually has more reanimation spells than reanimator; again making Tin Fins the beatdown deck. Extirpate being un-counterable an un-respondable ensures that your hate spell will be relevant - should you go down that path.
2) I don't like dedicating 4 slots to GY hate without knowing the field is going to have a large representation of fast GY centric decks
3) I don't like running cards that are dead to draw into once the game starts :/
the only other "turn 0/free" removal I could think of was faerie macabre and I'd weigh the lack of mana investment + not playing it out (ie: tormod's crypt) as more valuable than other options like coffin purge and the plethora of permanent based hate. I figured it was worth suggesting specifically for this scenario in case of lack of availability of surgical extraction. It's kinda sad that SE is so far ahead of any other form GY hate for this deck.
Personally - I don't think bringing in GY hate is the way to go against reanimator - play aggressively and use exhume/show and tell to your advantage. Also - discard >> permission that reanimator opts for.
EDIT:
I haven't played the match up to be perfectly honest so I'd default to experience - but I'm theorizing based on how I'd play and how I'd play against it. First, second and third yomi, ya know?
I didn't miss the ponders too much. The Careful Studys helped with getting guys in my graveyard really often. I debated a lot on how many Children to run, I kinda wanted to go 1 but at the same time I really liked being able to hit them. They also really helped in the storm matchup to help buy time since they couldn't just tendrils me for the win. I'm not sure I understand why running more than 1 Griselbrand is bad, like for me running it as a 2 of seems right to help up your chances of finding one to get in your graveyard somehow. Several games I've ended up with him in my hands and just making myself discard him to combo off.
I also agree that Silence is better than Orim's Chant. I had a friend running my other Silences in his deck so I had to improvise lol.
What do you guys do for the reanimator matchup? That one seems to just be almost like we can't win that one if they're on the play or they keep a decent counter hand. Do we just hope they don't have the nuts?
The "multiple" in my original post should be "more than 2." I run 2 Griselbrand in my list, any more is overkill.
Original post by ruckus:
I recommend anyone playing Tin Fins to start with my list, play it until you're familiar with what hands to keep and how to play matchups. Then, if you're still unsatisfied (which I still haven't been), feel free to tinker with the list. Versions with Careful Study are inherently weaker and slower. Versions with 2 Children of Korlis are still using it as a crutch. Versions with Pull from Eternity in the SB need to stop looking at March 2013 results for a basis of a decklist.
I don't understand how you figure Careful Study just makes the deck weaker? I assume your pushing for ponder over it, which isn't a bad choice but I don't see how it makes the deck so much more powerful? Also not sure why but the remark came across as condescending...the Pull from Eternity was something a friend of mine brought up so I was exploring the idea...was actually thinking about dropping it after the tournament but as I wanted to represent what I ran accurately I wanted to give the actual list instead of something that I might've ran knowing what I knew after the event. I would also like a little more explanation how running 2 Children of Korlis over 1 is a crutch?
Original post by Acclimation
The "multiple" in my original post should be "more than 2." I run 2 Griselbrand in my list, any more is overkill.
Ah ok, sorry about that I misunderstood. Yea when I first built this for play testing I had 3 Griselbrands in it and was not happy with that number at all. I would agree that anything over 2 is overkill.
Original post by luklinda
Personally - I don't think bringing in GY hate is the way to go against reanimator - play aggressively and use exhume/show and tell to your advantage. Also - discard >> permission that reanimator opts for.
This actually worked out well. I ended up playing my friend a few games with his reanimator list and just changing my play strategy a bit seemed to really up the chances of winning if I just played more aggressively and try to limit the ways he can reanimate profitably. Thanks for the advice.
I don't understand how you figure Careful Study just makes the deck weaker? I assume your pushing for ponder over it, which isn't a bad choice but I don't see how it makes the deck so much more powerful? Also not sure why but the remark came across as condescending...the Pull from Eternity was something a friend of mine brought up so I was exploring the idea...was actually thinking about dropping it after the tournament but as I wanted to represent what I ran accurately I wanted to give the actual list instead of something that I might've ran knowing what I knew after the event. I would also like a little more explanation how running 2 Children of Korlis over 1 is a crutch?
Careful Study does not fill the roll of "enable reanimation" - this is covered sufficiently well by discard and Entomb. It instead takes the role of cantrip for consistency. Tin Fins is constructed to minimize the non-flexible pieces. These are: Lands, creatures, and kill-cons. Careful Study would need to work to find the pieces of Entomb + reanimation. It only digs 2 cards deeps, and comes at a cost of -1 card in hand. This deck can't afford card disadvantage in its cantrips when setting up. Ponder is neutral in that respect, digs deeper, and helps fit business from discard/Clique.
Furthermore, to really utilize Careful Study as an enabler, you need to increase the density of Griselbrand in the deck. Playing 2 copies is the bare minimum I've found to still be effective. Adding the 3rd or 4th makes Careful Study live, but weakens the explosiveness of the deck. Copies 2-4 that are drawn all become "dead weight".
Similarly, running two copies of Children of Korlis is effectively having 1 dead copy. The first copy is already a marginal draw in setting up the combo. It is only useful in the process of "going off". As such, minimizing the needed copies is an important deck construction constraint. When you're going off, you are very likely to encounter an Entomb. You can then Entomb the sole copy of Children of Korlis and reanimate it to keep going. The second copy serves no added benefit aside from seeing it more often. The trouble is, seeing it more often means it will be a dead weight until you go off.
That trade off eventually hurts the deck in the long term, as you'll be setting up more often than you'll be going off with a perfect hand. Dead weight cards should be minimized.
As for Pull from Eternity, this only becomes useful vs DRS decks -- Pithing Needle and Chain of Vapor achieve the same role in the sideboard, while also being useful against other decks. Pull from Eternity is too narrow to be considered useful.
Careful Study does not fill the roll of "enable reanimation" - this is covered sufficiently well by discard and Entomb. It instead takes the role of cantrip for consistency. Tin Fins is constructed to minimize the non-flexible pieces. These are: Lands, creatures, and kill-cons. Careful Study would need to work to find the pieces of Entomb + reanimation. It only digs 2 cards deeps, and comes at a cost of -1 card in hand. This deck can't afford card disadvantage in its cantrips when setting up. Ponder is neutral in that respect, digs deeper, and helps fit business from discard/Clique.
Furthermore, to really utilize Careful Study as an enabler, you need to increase the density of Griselbrand in the deck. Playing 2 copies is the bare minimum I've found to still be effective. Adding the 3rd or 4th makes Careful Study live, but weakens the explosiveness of the deck. Copies 2-4 that are drawn all become "dead weight".
Similarly, running two copies of Children of Korlis is effectively having 1 dead copy. The first copy is already a marginal draw in setting up the combo. It is only useful in the process of "going off". As such, minimizing the needed copies is an important deck construction constraint. When you're going off, you are very likely to encounter an Entomb. You can then Entomb the sole copy of Children of Korlis and reanimate it to keep going. The second copy serves no added benefit aside from seeing it more often. The trouble is, seeing it more often means it will be a dead weight until you go off.
That trade off eventually hurts the deck in the long term, as you'll be setting up more often than you'll be going off with a perfect hand. Dead weight cards should be minimized.
Bolded for great profit. Combined, running second children of korlis, careful study (3-4 of) and third Griselbrand changes 5-6 cards (~10%) of your deck without increasing your speed/resiliency/generating CA. That's going to have a significant impact on competitive play in larger ie: longer tournaments.
As for Pull from Eternity, this only becomes useful vs DRS decks -- Pithing Needle and Chain of Vapor achieve the same role in the sideboard, while also being useful against other decks. Pull from Eternity is too narrow to be considered useful.
The only change I can recommend is -1 Silence +1 Thoughtseize; and that's a metagame consideration for non-combo heavy metagames.
That's actually a pretty sweet list; probably what I'll sleeve up (at least main 60) next time I bring this puppy out. I've played the same with -1 Lim-Dul's Vault, -1 Ponder, +1 Griselbrand, +1 Chrome Mox few weeks ago - due to lack of availability on the 2nd Lim-Dul's Vault I wanted a bit more explosiveness.
Didn't increase turn 1 percentages significantly and I hate Chrome Mox's inherent card disadvantage and terribleness as a top deck. It might not be the weakest card in the deck - but I'm very tempted to cut it for a second Scrubland (testament to white heavy SB) or 4th Underground Sea. I'll also harp on the effectiveness of Serenity as a SB card - probably one of the strongest anti-hate cards for this deck. Also, thinking about swapping the 3rd Chain of Vapor into 3rd Pithing Needle to combat Karakas, thoughts?
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I sided in Silences to combat Crop Rotation and Mindbreak Trap and Serenity for Pithing Needle and Chalice. I think it's a good sideboard strategy, but they can present multiple avenues of hate starting on turn 1. Anyone have some insight I might be missing?
5x SCG Legacy Open T8
16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
Check out my Legacy stream
5x SCG Legacy Open T8
16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
Check out my Legacy stream
Creatures
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Children of Korlis
4 Entomb
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
1 Reanimate
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Swamp
2 Silence
2 Pull from Eternity
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pact of Negation
2 Echoing Truth
1 Teferi's Realm
2 Mindbreak Trap
The sideboard wasn't what I'd hoped to use. The evening before the event I put in an order for 3 Massacre and 2 Serenity for pickup at the store. I got the e-mail from their inventory system confirming, but when I arrived on site, they weren't going to arrive until 6pm. I probably overlooked some disclaimer language to that effect, but it was disappointing nonetheless. I had brought some other spare sideboard cards to adapt to some of the better known players based on who showed up, so some went from "maybe" to "I guess I'm running these". Those were the Teferi's Realm, Mindbreak Trap, and Ratchet Bomb. In retrospect, the Ratchet Bombs were fine, even good. The other three cards did nothing, though the Traps may have if I'd drawn them.
My final record was 4-1, finishing 1st after the Swiss rounds. Everyone in the top 8 wanted to split, so $125 each and we were on our way (no one cared to play it out for the points either, but the 8 seed conceded to me before leaving).
Round 1 vs. Esper Stoneblade piloted by Jeff
This one was quick. I won the roll and combo'd off on turn two to end the first game and turn three to end the second. Probes stayed in, but I took out Ponders for Silences and Needles expecting counters and having seen Deathrite Shaman as his only play in game one. In the second game I had a first turn Needle to his (again) first turn Deathrite and he had a really rough turn two Thoughtseize, seeing two Entomb, a Shallow Grave, and a Vengeance (redundancy for both combo pieces).
Round 2 vs. 4-Color Loam piloted by Josh
This was a tough match. He won the roll and game one started off with him landing an early Chalice of the Void with X=1. I had kept my 7 with a Griselbrand, a Ritual, and a Vengeance, and had discarded him on turn 1 to set up a second turn combo, but the Chalice stuck me on mana when he followed up with Devastating Dreams and my Rituals were dead. I considered scooping, but found an out by casting Therapy into the Chalice to get it in the graveyard. Shallow Grave, draw 14, and then get Griselbrand back into the yard by paying Therapy's flashback cost (again, getting countered by the Chalice). Rinse and repeat over the next two turns and that's game 1.
In one of my draw steps this game, two cards stuck together. I stopped short of putting them into my hand, but did see the bottom one. I called the judge, he issued a warning for looking at extra cards (LAEC), shuffle the extra seen card in, and move on.
SB: +2 Ratchet Bomb, +2 Echoing Truth, -1 Children, -3 Probe.
Game 2 he landed another second-turn Chalice on 1, but I had mulled aggressively. I was looking for either a turn-1 winning hand, a Therapy to strip any Chalices, or a sideboard piece. I found a Ratchet Bomb and mana on the mull to five. Waited until I could cast the Bomb, kill the Chalice, and combo off in the same turn, and it came together around turn 5.
R3 vs. Doomsday piloted by Johnathan
I'd faced Johnathan at the Legacy Challenge at GP Oakland (where I went 6-2 with this deck, finishing 9th of 96), and I remembered he was a combo player, but forgot which combo. I also remembered that he'd talked about Mindbreak Trap being a problem for him.
I won the roll and combo'd on turn one of the first game with land, Ritual, Therapy discarding Griselbrand, Shallow Grave. Griselbrand's first activation found me a Probe, and Johnathan conceded as soon as I cast it, concealing his deck choice almost completely.
SB: -4 Ponder, +2 Silence, +2 Mindbreak Trap (because Probe felt like it would be relevant for game three and I expected we'd be playing a third game).
Game two was bad. I kept a decent hand but it was one Duress away from being terrible and his first turn play was, well, Duress. I durdled through a few turns naming terrible cards with Therapy in succession. I took out one Doomsday with a Thoughtseize, but it still left him with a LED and Burning Wish, so it was more or less pointless. A turn or two later his Tendrils ended the game.
SB: -4 Probe, +2 Pact of Negation, +2 Ratchet Bomb... not sure if anything would have helped here. Maybe this was a mistake as I just needed to race and should have kept the card that says "play with fewer cards in your deck" rather than "maybe you kill a LED if you're lucky and he misplays".
Game three was also rough. His Duresses were still good and my Therapies were still bad (he answered each one with a Brainstorm and three iterations got a total of 1 cards). Children of Korlis made their only appearance on the day by flashing back one Therapy to no effect and buying me a permanentless turn. I was at 16, he untapped his Shelldock Isle and cast Emrakul. He attacked in the extra turn and I floated mana to cast Shallow Grave after the Annihilate trigger resolved. I went from 16 to 1 to 16, but it mostly did nothing. Cabal Therapy is just a tough card to play correctly, and it's an area for me to improve on. I'll still keep at least one Children in the deck, but the second seems like a wasted slot.
Round 4 vs. RUG Delver piloted by Matt
We'd sat next to each other in one of the previous rounds, and I'd watched Matt wipe the floor with one of CFB's resident Judges, Mark Bush, by blind-flipping Delvers on turns 2, 3, and 4 of one game. It's common for Tin Fins to fall below 4 life after a couple Griselbrand activations, so I was extra-aware of staying out of Lightning Bolt range.
Game 1 went quickly as I mulled to 5 to get one combo piece, a land, and two spells to dig for the other half. The Brainstorm + Ponder got there and a Probe on turn 4 verified that his shields were down.
SB: +2 Silence, +1 Pull from Eternity, -1 Children of Korlis, -2 Ponder
I kept my 7, which included two Entombs, a dual, a fetch, a Chrome Mox, a Probe, and a Thoughtseize. He led with a Wasteland, but I fetched my Swamp and he seemed pretty unhappy about it. My first turn, though, I forgot to draw for the turn. I was just running on autopilot, getting the Probe out to see why he'd led with the Wasteland, and thinking getting the Swamp rather than a dual. My opponent from the previous round, Johnathan, noticed it and called the judge. Count up all the cards, notice I am indeed one short, and it's fairly obvious. It's a warning, but a game rule violation (GRV), not a missed trigger. Your opponent doesn't get to choose whether you draw for the turn, you just draw. Still, it was a warning for me. The additional draw was a fetch, so it didn't do a whole lot.
My Thoughtseize revealed he was holding two Spell Pierces, but I took a Stifle over either, because activating Griselbrand felt more important and Spell Pierce is something you can play around without too much trouble. He also helped me out by using his only blue source to Pierce my Chrome Mox when both of my lands were up. One Entomb got imprinted and the other resolved. A few turns later Griselbrand put him to 8 life and Tendrils finished the job, one of just three Tendrils-based game wins of the 9 games won on the day.
Round 5 vs. Robots piloted by Chris
Tables 1, 2, and 3 all drew into T8, and I maybe could have, but Chris definitely couldn't (whichever of the 7-pointers who won would have kicked him to ninth).
Chris and I knew what each other were playing, having been side-by-side at least two of the earlier rounds. He won the roll.
I started out by shuffling my whole sideboard into my deck. I noticed it in my opening hand, called the judge, and he gave me the appropriate deck/decklist problem infraction and downgrade to a warning (because I'd called it on myself and I hadn't made any plays), forced mull to 6. Chris also mulled to 6 and kept.
My 6 was a nut draw, with Therapy, Shallow Grave, Ritual, Ponder, Petal, and Griselbrand. I swung with Griselbrand and Emrakul on turn one.
SB: +2 Ratchet Bomb, +2 Echoing Truth, -1 Children, -2 Ponder, -1 Probe. From the earlier matches I'd seen, I knew one of his SB answers was Canonist, but didn't remember the other details.
Game two I keep my seven with Probe, Ratchet Bomb, Ritual, a dual, a fetch, and Vengeance.
His first turn is Ancient Den, Ornithopter, Mox Opal, Ethersworn Canonist. Ouch.
Mine is fetch, ritual, Ratchet Bomb.
Turn two he plays an Ornithopter and taps the Opal for a Thoughtcast. Then he plays another Opal, bins the tapped one, and taps the new one to Thoughtcast again. I immediately stop him and call the judge. Simple rewind and warning, and we're back in business. Charge the Bomb at his EOT. It took discipline to not just get 3-for-1 and hit both Ornithopters and the Opal, but killing the Canonist felt more important.
The next couple turns were just him swinging with the Canonist and me charging the Bomb to 2 and then killing it on his third attack. I hit an Entomb in those couple draws. The turn after the Bomb kills the Canonist, Emrakul clears his board and puts him to 5.
He extended a hand when Emrakul swung, but I didn't think he realized he was just at 5, not dead. I had 2 lands and my hand and graveyard were empty, and he still had 3-4 cards. I needed 3 perfect draws to finish him and he may very well have pulled it out. He pulled back the offer and we tried a couple more turns but he still wasn't hitting any land, so conceded. If we'd played it out, I'm not sure I would have finished him off before he recovered, but I suppose things were still pretty tilted in my favor.
Final record 4-1, first place in a field of 29. Top 8 split, good for $125 store credit apiece. Final warning count: 3, all in different areas of the IPG, so no upgrades (1 GRV, 1 D/DLP, 1 LAEC).
Former US Southwest Regional Coordinator
Favorite cards of all time:
Overall - Peacekeeper
Flavor text - Blazing Archon
5x SCG Legacy Open T8
16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
Check out my Legacy stream
-:pops:
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
Caleb Durward's RB Shallow Grave deck: http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-calebd-legacy-rb-shallow-grave/
4x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Arid Mesa
1x Swamp
Mana Acceleration (11)
2x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x Dark Ritual
1x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Thoughtseize
2x Hymn to Tourach
Grave Play (7)
4x Entomb
3x Faithless Looting
Action (10)
3x Stronghold Gambit
3x Goryo’s Vengeance
4x Shallow Grave
Creatures (7)
4x Griselbrand
3x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3x Duress
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x City of Traitors
2x Seething Song
3x Sneak Attack
2x Through the Breach
The deck I'm Gold fishing: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/x-men-testing/
1x Arid Mesa
2x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Mountain
2x Swamp
2x Underground Sea
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volcanic Island
Artifact (6)
2x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
Creature (7)
3x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Griselbrand
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual
4x Entomb
3x Goryo's Vengeance
4x Shallow Grave
Sorcery (13)
1x Burning Wish
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Stronghold Gambit
4x Thoughtseize
1x Unmask
1x Deathmark
1x Empty the Warrens
2x Pyroclasm
1x Reanimate
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Shattering Spree
1x Show and Tell
1x Stronghold Gambit
1x Tendrils of Agony
I was hoping for a sorcery speed "bounce target permanent" but the only ones I could find for the 15th SB spot cost double blue or too much mana. I don't know what I'd include as I only made my version tonight.
1. It has no way to win on the same turn once Griselbrand makes it into play. Tendrils of Agony probably accounts for 33%-50% of the same-turn wins.
2. It is more vulnerable to Karakas, Jace, StP, Maze of Ith, etc
3. It has more difficult time against Tempo decks that feature a high quantity of counters. Silence in the UB/w version shines in that respect.
(4.) It cannot generate enough mana to hard-cast Emrakul for the extra turn effect.
Ultimately, the Br version looks like a weaker Sneak & Show deck rather than Tin Fins.
Remember that the whole point with Tin Fins is to "break" Griselbrand to the point of banning it. This version cannot get close to abusing Griselbrand in the same way as the previous lists.
5x SCG Legacy Open T8
16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
Check out my Legacy stream
Main deck changes:
-1 Children of Korlis
+1 Lim-Dul's Vault
Sideboard changes:
-1 Teferi's Realm
-2 Pact of Negation
+3 Massacre
20 people showed up, so 5 rounds plus a cut to top 8. My final record was 4-2 (before scooping a friend into the finals where the other guy scooped to him as he was the only guy going to the GP). I won't go round-by-round with a full report like last time, but here are the basics:
R1 loss to Merfolk (he had 3 counters - 2 soft and 1 FOW - and I couldn't get through the third)
R2 loss to RUG Delver (Phillip Yam, with a GP Top 16 in his past, also the guy I scooped to in the semis)
R3 win vs Miracles (hand disruption was key)
R4 win vs. ANT (the friendliest match I played all day, we both left our hands up after probes etc, just a genuinely nice guy. Mindbreak Trap was absolutely clutch here.)
R5 win vs Death & Taxes (through a T1 Karakas in G2)
QF win vs the R1 Merfolk player (sweet revenge!)
Good for $100 in store credit. Next event is at CFB in a couple weeks!
Former US Southwest Regional Coordinator
Favorite cards of all time:
Overall - Peacekeeper
Flavor text - Blazing Archon
DECK:
2 Griselbrand
2 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
Instants x 26
4 Brainstorm
4 Shallow Grave
4 Entomb
4 Dark Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Silence
Sorcery x 10
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Careful Study
1 Reanimate
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
Lands x 14
4 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Orim's Chant
3 Chains of Vapor
2 Serenity
2 Pull from Eternity
2 Massacre
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
TOURNAMENT REPORT
Round 1 VS Mono Blue Stasis
Not much to tell on this one. Game 1 I went for it and on turn 2 and he had a Daze to stop me from going off. Then on turn 3 I went for the combo again and he had nothing to stop me so I won on that turn. Game 2 I probed his hand and say that he had 6 lands and 1 Stasis in had, so I combo-ed on turn 1 and finished this one up quickly.
WIN 2-0
Round 2 VS Led-Dredge
I cast Thoughtseize on turn 1 and pulled his LED out of his hand, which slowed him way down and I was able to combo on turn 3 and won game 1. Game 2 went pretty much the same way with Thoughtseize slowing him down enough for me to get my combo going.
WIN 2-0
Round 3 VS ANT Storm
Both games here were really short. I won the dice roll and probed his hand game 1 to see he was on storm, then proceeded to combo turn 1 and proceed to win the game. Then game 2 was basically the same as he played probed my hand and passed turn and then I combo-ed turn 1 and won the game.
WIN 2-0
Round 4 VS ANT Storm
We agreed to draw this as it would lock both of us into the top 8
Round 5 VS LED-Dredge
We agreed to draw this as it would lock us into the top 4 seats of the top 8.
Quarterfinals VS LED-Dredge
Game 1 I was able to combo in the early turns and just win the game straight out. Game 2 he drops Leyline of the Void and starts dredging and using Cabal Therapy to pull Entombs out of my hand. After a kind of long game I end up finding my combo pieces and use Chain of Vapor to bounce the leyline and proceed to grab Emrakul and swing for the win.
WIN 2-0
Semifinals VS ANT Storm
Game 1 I end up comb-ing on turn 1-2 and win the game quickly. Game 2 he ends up using therapys to keep pulling combo pieces out of my hand until he goes for Empty the Warrens (because I had Children of Korlis in play to prevent him from going for Tendrils of Agony) and aggros me out for game 2. Game 3 I combo on turn 3 and after probing my hand he scoops and says good game.
WIN 2-1
Finals VS Reanimator
My friend was the one playing reanimator and due to a mixture of being tired and starving lol, he decided to scoop to me so that we could go ahead and get out of there.
THOUGHTS/CHANGES:
Against Dredge and Storm I think we're just a lot faster combo deck so we should be able to just win before they can. Against the counter decks I think we may have a bit of an uphill fight but if you have the turn 1 I think you go for it and see if they fail the Force of Will check. Reanimator is a bit of a bad matchup I think, or at least from the testing my group has done it seems that way. The main reason I think behind this is that they can reanimate Griselbrand and then more or less just dig for a counterspell when we try to combo on our turn. I'm thinking about seeing if I can fix this by going with -1 Pithing Needle, -2 Surgical Extraction and adding 3 Leyline of the Void to the deck. This would force them to go the show and tell route, which I think is just better for us. Although I am a little bit worried that by cutting the Pithing Needles that Deathrite Shaman may become a giant threat. I'm definitely open to any suggestions or ideas about this one.
Reanimator is a weird matchup- we're faster, but they have a lot of counterspells to disrupt us. Reanimate can hit any card in any graveyard, so doing Entomb and passing turn/not reanimating before their next turn can lead to some awkward situations. That being said, we have our own Reanimate, so sometimes we can steal games from them. We have the option of bringing in Surgical Extraction or Silence in against Reanimator, and I feel both are correct choices depending on whether or not you are on the play or draw. If I'm on the play, I'm going for Silence and hoping for a t1/2 protected kill. If on the draw, I'm bringing in Surgical to disrupt their plans. I don't like going for a long game versus Reanimator, their protection is reactive and they have more Reanimation targets that can shut down what we are doing.
I wouldn't recommend cutting Needle unless DRS, Karakas, and Scooze are missing from your meta. That card hits so many problem permanents that I don't want to leave home without 3 in my sideboard.
The sideboard I currently have looks like:
2 Massacre
2 Serenity
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Silence
3 Pithing Needle
I highly recommend removing Pull From Eternity, that card does nothing and takes up valuable sideboard slots.
I also recommend swapping the 3 Chants for 3 Silence. Silence doesn't target, so you can't get it misdirected and it gets around Leyline of Sanctity, and the WW for Kicker is hard to hit and usually isn't worth it.
I can see swapping a Chain and a Surgical around, but Serenity, Massacre, and Needle tend to cover me on any permanent based hate, and when I want Surgical, I want to make sure I get it. In fact, I usually bring in Chain as a 1 of to supplement Serenity, Massacre, or Needle.
The lack of hatebears makes Massacre less appealing, but knowing my luck, as soon as I remove them, I'll play against hatebear decks and have slow hands and end up hating life.
Other thoughts, how do you like the deck without Ponder? It seems weird to not run it, and instead have Careful Study and an extra Children of Korlis. Careful Study seems pretty bad with 2 Griselbrand (even then, running multiple Griselbrand seem bad), and the selection that Ponder gives us is too good to ignore. Children of Korlis, while amazing when we get it mid combo, makes me sad every time I see it outside of the combo turn- a lot of us have been playing with 1 with success.
Keep in mind I'm running a 61 card deck, since the 61st card is either the 4th Probe or 14th land (I prefer both).
DDFT UBWR
Tinfins
Back to back turn 1 kills at SCG St. Louis:
http://blip.tv/scglive/scgstl-leg-rd-8-logan-creen-vs-joe-skirmont-6602155
If you're running Leyline of the Void you should be running 4; if you can't find the room for that then go with extirpate or faerie macabre since both are "uncounterable."
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Leyline is lackluster when Surgical Extraction and Extirpate both exist. I 1000000% DO NOT RECOMMEND FAERIE MACABRE. It interacts very very poorly with Shallow Grave. Surgical and Extirpate are identical, but I do prefer to be able to "Hail Mary" Brainstorm into Surgical in those matchups where I need it, and it being a "free" spell makes up for that type of play. In most situations, the 2 life won't matter. In some games, you can swap Probe for Surgical Extraction (Tempo & GY dependent decks) as it still provides knowledge of the hand while still being a free spell.
5x SCG Legacy Open T8
16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
Check out my Legacy stream
I didn't miss the ponders too much. The Careful Studys helped with getting guys in my graveyard really often. I debated a lot on how many Children to run, I kinda wanted to go 1 but at the same time I really liked being able to hit them. They also really helped in the storm matchup to help buy time since they couldn't just tendrils me for the win. I'm not sure I understand why running more than 1 Griselbrand is bad, like for me running it as a 2 of seems right to help up your chances of finding one to get in your graveyard somehow. Several games I've ended up with him in my hands and just making myself discard him to combo off.
I also agree that Silence is better than Orim's Chant. I had a friend running my other Silences in his deck so I had to improvise lol.
What do you guys do for the reanimator matchup? That one seems to just be almost like we can't win that one if they're on the play or they keep a decent counter hand. Do we just hope they don't have the nuts?
So, ummm...... Reanimator doesn't run shallow grave and he was posting for shoring up the reanimator match up not the tin fins one. Reading is OP but thanks for the caps lock bolded scream chat.
Also - Faerie Macabre is only weaker than extirpate/surgical when they have an extra entomb and mana to cast it - doesn't seem like there would be many cases where that'd be relevant from a Tin Fin's player perspective as you're more likely to go off before your reanimator opponent - who is for some reason running shallow grave - has 3+ mana available to them AND a spare entomb in hand. Playing around Force, daze, spell pierce seems more relevant than the extra entomb scenario.....
Also - surgical and extirpate aren't identitcal at all - one is uncounterable and the other isn't - which again seems more relevant against reanimator (much less likely for turn 1 shenanigans) than the turn 0 appeal of surgical. when talking about reanimator.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
I think what he meant is that if you're running Faerie Macabre that it interferes with casting Shallow Grave afterwards.
Because it gives you a secondary creature if:
1). Your opponent removes your fatty
and
2). You don't have another thing to bin
instead of just letting shallow grave fizzle you nab a 2/2 flyer... Still not seeing much of a downside. I mean - how often does the deck need to entomb - pass the turn and then wait to shallow grave? If your opp is playing full G/Y removal it's a moot point. I'm still seeing the only down side as when you're playing against targeted GY removal, your opponent removes your target - AND your spell would have fizzled in the first place....
I suppose if your early reanimation spell was countered - and then you drew into another shallow grave after you used faerie macabre and without having another way to bin a creature - then it could be a downside - but that seems like it's a fairly situational occurrence and even then - it's all moot when you have a fatty in hand + discard outlet or an entomb or if you have goryo's vengeance. Just seems like there are plenty of ways around getting locked into nabbing macabre "accidentally."
Either way - I stand by extirpate >>>>> surgical extraction against reanimator because their turn 1 reanimation is around 30% at most - considering mulligans which means about 1/6 games you won't get to see 1 mana - factoring in a ~ 50% who goes first ratio. And while they sacrifice speed - they gain tempo ala Force of Will + Daze - and games 2/3 (when SB 'yard hate is relevant) they will most likely ship hands without permission - even opting for slower hands specifically because Tin Fins is a faster deck. You're going to need to play through permission games 2/3 either by redundant reanimation spells in the first place (also plays around macabre) or by having un-counterable hate.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
I have read the post, and I'm saying from experience and from strategic stand-point -- Faerie Macabre and Leyline of the Void are very weak SB cards and do little to a) fight Reanimator while at the same time b) helping you win.
Reanimator also doesn't run Faerie Macabre or Leyline, they rarely run g/y hate, and when they do it's usually Surgical Extraction or Coffin Purge.
Shallow Grave'ing a Faerie Macabre is as useful as a screen door on a submarine. Congrats, you have a 2/2 with haste. Please exile it at the end of turn. You've dealt 2 damage! Woohoo! #value
I recommend anyone playing Tin Fins to start with my list, play it until you're familiar with what hands to keep and how to play matchups. Then, if you're still unsatisfied (which I still haven't been), feel free to tinker with the list. Versions with Careful Study are inherently weaker and slower. Versions with 2 Children of Korlis are still using it as a crutch. Versions with Pull from Eternity in the SB need to stop looking at March 2013 results for a basis of a decklist.
I think you're misunderstanding my post completely.
As for Surgical vs Extraction -- I'd rather have the free spell 99% of the time rather than "uncounterable". The purpose of this sideboard slot is to fight equally fast combo decks that rely on g/y, such as Dredge, Rogue Hermit, TES/ANT, and Reanimator. Waiting until your Turn 1 to enable g/y hate is making this sideboard slot useless.
5x SCG Legacy Open T8
16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
Check out my Legacy stream
Think I figured it out - I understand your post, and I completely agree, especially the bolded text. Looking at the original post I added context; I was reading it more as the reanimator guy at my LGS is hard to beat, please help, so my suggestions were narrow and "off the wall."
In general though - I'd say that surgical extraction is by far and above better than extirpate and the best choice. Specifically against reanimator, though I feel like extirpate is a stronger card because they frequently fight hate with permission. The real trick though is that against reanimator Tin Fins is the beat down deck. Rean. can't match the speed of Tin Fins and is thus forced to be the control deck - which means they're more likely to keep/sculpt slower more controlling hands instead of explosive hands. Knowing that they will play slower and that you'll have access to mana - makes extirpate a plausible choice against reanimator. Also - due to the symetrical effect of show and tell and exhume - Tin Fins actually has more reanimation spells than reanimator; again making Tin Fins the beatdown deck. Extirpate being un-counterable an un-respondable ensures that your hate spell will be relevant - should you go down that path.
Also, I'm just weary of leyline of the void because:
1) I would never run less than 4
2) I don't like dedicating 4 slots to GY hate without knowing the field is going to have a large representation of fast GY centric decks
3) I don't like running cards that are dead to draw into once the game starts :/
the only other "turn 0/free" removal I could think of was faerie macabre and I'd weigh the lack of mana investment + not playing it out (ie: tormod's crypt) as more valuable than other options like coffin purge and the plethora of permanent based hate. I figured it was worth suggesting specifically for this scenario in case of lack of availability of surgical extraction. It's kinda sad that SE is so far ahead of any other form GY hate for this deck.
Personally - I don't think bringing in GY hate is the way to go against reanimator - play aggressively and use exhume/show and tell to your advantage. Also - discard >> permission that reanimator opts for.
EDIT:
I haven't played the match up to be perfectly honest so I'd default to experience - but I'm theorizing based on how I'd play and how I'd play against it. First, second and third yomi, ya know?
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
The "multiple" in my original post should be "more than 2." I run 2 Griselbrand in my list, any more is overkill.
DDFT UBWR
Tinfins
Back to back turn 1 kills at SCG St. Louis:
http://blip.tv/scglive/scgstl-leg-rd-8-logan-creen-vs-joe-skirmont-6602155
I don't understand how you figure Careful Study just makes the deck weaker? I assume your pushing for ponder over it, which isn't a bad choice but I don't see how it makes the deck so much more powerful? Also not sure why but the remark came across as condescending...the Pull from Eternity was something a friend of mine brought up so I was exploring the idea...was actually thinking about dropping it after the tournament but as I wanted to represent what I ran accurately I wanted to give the actual list instead of something that I might've ran knowing what I knew after the event. I would also like a little more explanation how running 2 Children of Korlis over 1 is a crutch?
Ah ok, sorry about that I misunderstood. Yea when I first built this for play testing I had 3 Griselbrands in it and was not happy with that number at all. I would agree that anything over 2 is overkill.
This actually worked out well. I ended up playing my friend a few games with his reanimator list and just changing my play strategy a bit seemed to really up the chances of winning if I just played more aggressively and try to limit the ways he can reanimate profitably. Thanks for the advice.
Careful Study does not fill the roll of "enable reanimation" - this is covered sufficiently well by discard and Entomb. It instead takes the role of cantrip for consistency. Tin Fins is constructed to minimize the non-flexible pieces. These are: Lands, creatures, and kill-cons. Careful Study would need to work to find the pieces of Entomb + reanimation. It only digs 2 cards deeps, and comes at a cost of -1 card in hand. This deck can't afford card disadvantage in its cantrips when setting up. Ponder is neutral in that respect, digs deeper, and helps fit business from discard/Clique.
Furthermore, to really utilize Careful Study as an enabler, you need to increase the density of Griselbrand in the deck. Playing 2 copies is the bare minimum I've found to still be effective. Adding the 3rd or 4th makes Careful Study live, but weakens the explosiveness of the deck. Copies 2-4 that are drawn all become "dead weight".
Similarly, running two copies of Children of Korlis is effectively having 1 dead copy. The first copy is already a marginal draw in setting up the combo. It is only useful in the process of "going off". As such, minimizing the needed copies is an important deck construction constraint. When you're going off, you are very likely to encounter an Entomb. You can then Entomb the sole copy of Children of Korlis and reanimate it to keep going. The second copy serves no added benefit aside from seeing it more often. The trouble is, seeing it more often means it will be a dead weight until you go off.
That trade off eventually hurts the deck in the long term, as you'll be setting up more often than you'll be going off with a perfect hand. Dead weight cards should be minimized.
As for Pull from Eternity, this only becomes useful vs DRS decks -- Pithing Needle and Chain of Vapor achieve the same role in the sideboard, while also being useful against other decks. Pull from Eternity is too narrow to be considered useful.
I urge anyone interested in Tin Fins to first pilot this version:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11952&iddeck=87539
The only change I can recommend is -1 Silence +1 Thoughtseize; and that's a metagame consideration for non-combo heavy metagames.
5x SCG Legacy Open T8
16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
Check out my Legacy stream
Bolded for great profit. Combined, running second children of korlis, careful study (3-4 of) and third Griselbrand changes 5-6 cards (~10%) of your deck without increasing your speed/resiliency/generating CA. That's going to have a significant impact on competitive play in larger ie: longer tournaments.
That's actually a pretty sweet list; probably what I'll sleeve up (at least main 60) next time I bring this puppy out. I've played the same with -1 Lim-Dul's Vault, -1 Ponder, +1 Griselbrand, +1 Chrome Mox few weeks ago - due to lack of availability on the 2nd Lim-Dul's Vault I wanted a bit more explosiveness.
Didn't increase turn 1 percentages significantly and I hate Chrome Mox's inherent card disadvantage and terribleness as a top deck. It might not be the weakest card in the deck - but I'm very tempted to cut it for a second Scrubland (testament to white heavy SB) or 4th Underground Sea. I'll also harp on the effectiveness of Serenity as a SB card - probably one of the strongest anti-hate cards for this deck. Also, thinking about swapping the 3rd Chain of Vapor into 3rd Pithing Needle to combat Karakas, thoughts?
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
It's consistent, it's fast, and the sideboard covers everything.
Don't suggest changes to it until you've played a lot of games, it's incredibly solid.
DDFT UBWR
Tinfins
Back to back turn 1 kills at SCG St. Louis:
http://blip.tv/scglive/scgstl-leg-rd-8-logan-creen-vs-joe-skirmont-6602155