The probabilities for most of this scenarios are just really small.
Enchantress plays 1 Rest in Peace main, and as long as they don't know my deck exactly, they will not play like this.
Countertop plays silence main? Or Torpor orb (which doesn't always matter to the combo) or blind obedience?
Jund plays Surgical Extraction main?
MUD plays Ensnaring Bridge main?
Enchantment destruction and Path to exile DOES NOT HELP!!!
Is it that hard to understand, that we play Inquisition of Kozilek?
Oh and No one plays Whispmare main...
We should focus the MAINBOARD for the FIRST game, where the opponent has no niche sideboardcards....
Especially what do you want to say with this scenarios? That the Deck can be hated? Wow thank you I didn't know that....
This is really helpful brainstorming....
I mean what should the mainboard of this deck do:
Having a CHANCE to Win against really unlikely scenarios.
Or Having High probability to win against players with no hate?
And if you are talking about the second game:
If the opponents are boarding Elephant Grass
or Whispmare or Nature's Claim or Ensnaring Bridge then THANK YOU STUPID OPPONENT!
I mean why should I play the same combokill in the second game?
This Deck cannot board a lot of cards, so having 3 cards in the Sideboard for another win, is reasonable, or maybe even having (as many have) a transformation sideboard.
Especially when opponents start to board such stupid things!
This kill needs one slot less, and is (in the first game!!!) As good as any other kill, if opponents are starting to board stupid things it is even better then the other kills!
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My new houserules:
1. Every player saing exiled or battlefield will be kicked out.
2. Not using you mana deals 2 points of manaburn.
3. Combat damage goes over the Stack and you can freely assign it.
4. Lifelinks does stack and doesn't safe you from dying.
5. Tokens are owned bye the one who has made them.
Everyone thinking M10 will not affect a lot of cards or Limited a lot, either has no clue about magic or has never played limited or is getting paid by wizards to do propaganda.
First of all, this is the developing section, I'm just brainstorming here. We want to look into every option available to make this deck competitive and viable. I'm not saying it's my way or the highway.
Secondly I think the Sutured Ghoul and Dragon Breath combo is really weak. No wonder it's not been used in Cephalid Breakfast and Boo Berry decks anymore. Here is why:
t1: Land, go,
Keeping a hand with one of following: Spell Pierce (You seriously want me to believe you have 6 mana in hand to cast the combo AND pay this off?) Daze Stifle Force of Will
t1: Land, go
Keeping a hand with one of the following: Wispmare Nature's Claim
(Once your Dragon Breath is destroyed, you have a 56/72 Ghoul with trample in play and draw dead next turn)
Now I'm not saying these plays are all common opening plays, but they are possible when they know they face your deck. The strength of Legacy decks lies in it's ability to answer and adapt to other decks. Chancellor of the Annex is a good card to deal with most of the threats.
the scenario's shown on your post is almost fictional as most card in the scenario's are SB cards or hate cards. example. we dont play MB surgical in jund. and i dont like surgical... i play extirpate only in games 2-3.
anything than i listed IMHO shouldn't be a problem.
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A team should be as happy as a meal - TEAM HAPPYMEAL
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tronGR
Buy All the planeswalkers!!!
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
I've been testing a list similar to Prosaks', and I'm curious to see what everyone else's experience has been not running LED + wish/tutor. I was wary at first, but so far it seems like 8 wincons has been enough. That said, I feel like Bridge is necessary to avoid getting win-cons stuck in your hand, and street wraith is awful, because you can't keep a hand without a miller regardless of how many cantrips it has. This frees up room for another spell, I'm thinking it might be worth just running Pact of negation main, so you don't just auto-lose game 1 to force of will, but I've seen a lot of people talking about chancellor of the annex, in what circumstances is it better than PoN?
I've been testing a list similar to Prosaks', and I'm curious to see what everyone else's experience has been not running LED + wish/tutor. I was wary at first, but so far it seems like 8 wincons has been enough. That said, I feel like Bridge is necessary to avoid getting win-cons stuck in your hand, and street wraith is awful, because you can't keep a hand without a miller regardless of how many cantrips it has. This frees up room for another spell, I'm thinking it might be worth just running Pact of negation main, so you don't just auto-lose game 1 to force of will, but I've seen a lot of people talking about chancellor of the annex, in what circumstances is it better than PoN?
Personally, I don't think Prosak's list of 8 win-cons is enough. Belcher runs burning wish -> etw for a reason. Thus, I like the living wish + LED -> spy package. Having those 3 extra win-cons (+4 wish, -1 spy) really helps. Others have tested my list on mtgthesource and have been getting similar results to me (50-60% t1 kill rate, >70% t2). One other individual even got 73% t1 kill for 100 goldfishes with my list.
I've never had an issue of needing to get cards out of my hand aside from having 2 narcs + no spy (mulligan) thanks to 2 cabal therapy. LED also does double work by discarding our hand if needed. The main problem I'm having is deciding what to do with the sb. There are too many cards to board out if I want to do a full transformation. Right now, I'm leaning towards a sb that protects my combo or boarding in belchers. Let me know what you think.
SB: 1 Balustrade Spy - can be sac to therapy
SB: 1 Cavern of Souls - anti-blue
SB: 1 Swamp - mana fix
SB: 4 Nature's Claim - leyline/crypt/relic
SB: 4 Chancellor of the Annex - comes in for chancellor of the tangle
SB: 4 Goblin Charbelcher - comes in for living wish and/or spy against heavy gy/counter hate
Learning when you can afford to be greedy with Wraith/Probe is HUGE with this deck.
Just Goldfished 66% Turn 1 kill (76% T2, 83% T3). Same list I posted earlier.
Some notable lines of play:
T1:Azami, Mox, Pact, Wraith, Wraith, Spy, Narco
Wraith>Mox, Wraith>Probe, Probe>DRit.
Pact>Odious Trow, Mox(Trow), Mox(Narco), BBBU>Spy
Sac Spy to CT for Azami, sac 3 Narco for Dread Return to win on turn 1. I've had several games like this, but the lesson is clear, Spy, by staying on the field, allows for much more aggressive lines of play.
T1:Petal, ESG, Drit, MM, Probe, Probe, Wraith
Wraith>Informer, win.
This is the only hand I kept out of the 100 games I played that I kept without a Spy/Informer. I guess the lesson is, the risk sometimes is worth it.
The deck can mulligan fairly aggressively. Down to 5 can still T1 win quite often. I won five games (of 100) on T1 mulling to 4.
I don't think I'll be running Bridge from Below. There weren't as many situations where it was relevant as you'd think, the main thing I could see it helping with is if you have 2 or 3 CTs so they always hit something, but the opponent should focus on stopping our mill enabler anyway, so CT is actually irrelevant most of the times you cast it on the opponent. They can respond to CT by using Surgical Extraction. They should honestly just Force the Spy/Informer. There are very few hate spells its relevant from the GY against.
Also, I know I'm not the best combo player, as this is the first combo deck I've ever assembled and played, but it's actually a really interesting approach at the game.
If you aren't listening to Waterdragon, you aren't a good combo player. As someone who's been trying to kill people on turn 1 as consistently as possible for about 4 years now, I can safely say the following from lots and lots of experience in high-level tournament settings:
1) Yes, most of the scenarios he listed are likely. Did he say this was all G1 and that you would always lose the die roll? No. That is not what he said at all. But the cards he listed are heavily played in sideboards, for the most part, and they will crush you.
2) Yes, you need to prepare for these hate cards. I don't care what your turn 1 rate is. My turn 1 rate with Cheeri0s is approaching 80% with recent lists, and I still have tons of sideboard counterhate for Chalice of the Void, Counterbalance, Force, Spell Pierce, Daze, Thoughtseize/Duress/IoK, Leyline of Sanctity, Thalia, Stony Silence, Surgical Extraction. If I did not prepare for them, I would lose to them, hard, because my opponents do bring them in, they do mull to them, and I do end up fighting through them with my sideboard.
MUD does play Bridge maindeck. FoW/Daze/Pierce/Stifle will eat you for breakfast. Cage will make you cry. Chalice of the Void will be something to scoop to (and don't believe for a second they won't play it @0 turn 1). Torpor Orb does, in fact, always matter. There is no wincon available that is not shut down by Orb.
Defending the deck is one thing, but you cannot outright deny the existence or efficiency of hate cards. If you do so, you are compromising the deck. If you want this deck to succeed, be harshly honest with it. Expect the worst. Prepare for as much as you can. Recognize what commonly played cards are going to stop you, and never, ever believe that your counterhate is enough.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
If you aren't listening to Waterdragon, you aren't a good combo player. As someone who's been trying to kill people on turn 1 as consistently as possible for about 4 years now, I can safely say the following from lots and lots of experience in high-level tournament settings:
1) Yes, most of the scenarios he listed are likely. Did he say this was all G1 and that you would always lose the die roll? No. That is not what he said at all. But the cards he listed are heavily played in sideboards, for the most part, and they will crush you.
2) Yes, you need to prepare for these hate cards. I don't care what your turn 1 rate is. My turn 1 rate with Cheeri0s is approaching 80% with recent lists, and I still have tons of sideboard counterhate for Chalice of the Void, Counterbalance, Force, Spell Pierce, Daze, Thoughtseize/Duress/IoK, Leyline of Sanctity, Thalia, Stony Silence, Surgical Extraction. If I did not prepare for them, I would lose to them, hard, because my opponents do bring them in, they do mull to them, and I do end up fighting through them with my sideboard.
MUD does play Bridge maindeck. FoW/Daze/Pierce/Stifle will eat you for breakfast. Cage will make you cry. Chalice of the Void will be something to scoop to (and don't believe for a second they won't play it @0 turn 1). Torpor Orb does, in fact, always matter. There is no wincon available that is not shut down by Orb.
Defending the deck is one thing, but you cannot outright deny the existence or efficiency of hate cards. If you do so, you are compromising the deck. If you want this deck to succeed, be harshly honest with it. Expect the worst. Prepare for as much as you can. Recognize what commonly played cards are going to stop you, and never, ever believe that your counterhate is enough.
We were talking about G1 at least I was if you or the dragon would have read my post.
My point was, that his really bad mainboard is really bad, because it cannot kill (quickly)
Then bringing arguments about G2 is ridicolous. For G2 one we also have a sideboard!
Yes you have to consider this things FOR GAME 2! And therefore the Deck has a sideboard!
And this things are not worth to cripple your MAINDECK in Game 1.
But NO one will play G1 T1 Chalice of the Void for 0 in general. Of course if he somehow know what deck you are playing he might do that, but chances he don't know are way higher.
Toror Orb costs 2 Mana so unless you play a really bad and slow list (like waterdragons), you should not care to much about it.
the MUD I know doesn't Play Bridge Maindeck. And even if they do they don't drop it Turn 1 against a random opponent...
And about Pact of Negation or Chancellor of the Annex:
Pact of Negation is only better when:
It is drawn after turn 1.
Or if the game goes longer then 2 turns.
Or if you draw multiple of them.
He has a free counter and one mana open.
Pact of Negation only helps against graveyardhate and counter (and also only if you don't play lion's eye diamond).
Chancellor of the Annex helps also against:
Opponent playing fastcombo
Discard
Cheap permanent hate (when he starts).
You need a card to imprint in Chrome mox.
@nudon I think in your list with the Lion's Eye Diamond I also would not play the Bridge from Below. But in a list without it, it helps often enough.
Drawing 1 Narcomoeba and 1 Combo piece and having the Spy means you need it allready.
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My new houserules:
1. Every player saing exiled or battlefield will be kicked out.
2. Not using you mana deals 2 points of manaburn.
3. Combat damage goes over the Stack and you can freely assign it.
4. Lifelinks does stack and doesn't safe you from dying.
5. Tokens are owned bye the one who has made them.
Everyone thinking M10 will not affect a lot of cards or Limited a lot, either has no clue about magic or has never played limited or is getting paid by wizards to do propaganda.
Ok, there's one thing missing in this deck: A name.
The best formula I can think of for coming up with a name are Engine+wincon.
The because the deck uses a spy and an informer, the name will have to do with espionage. I like the word "Covert." The deck wins by dumping itself into the graveyard. Kind of like a dead drop.
THats it!
Covert dead drop, or maybe just Dead Drop. The perfect espionage name.
You heard it here first, people. Dead Drop.
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YMTC: We need a spikey red enchantment. My creations:
RR
Whenever a player taps a nonbasic land, [Card] deals 2 damage to them.
-or-
R
Whenever a player would gain life, flip a coin. If heads, that player loses that much life instead. If tails sacrifice [card] and that player gains that life as per usual.
Well, the ability that we're abusing was keyworded as "Grind" in Development according to Wizards... maybe it could incorporate that into its name. I'd say "Grindhouse" maybe... but Spy Hard (or even Spy Fall) could work.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
We were talking about G1 at least I was if you or the dragon would have read my post.
My point was, that his really bad mainboard is really bad, because it cannot kill (quickly)
Then bringing arguments about G2 is ridicolous. For G2 one we also have a sideboard!
Yes you have to consider this things FOR GAME 2! And therefore the Deck has a sideboard!
And this things are not worth to cripple your MAINDECK in Game 1.
But NO one will play G1 T1 Chalice of the Void for 0 in general. Of course if he somehow know what deck you are playing he might do that, but chances he don't know are way higher.
Toror Orb costs 2 Mana so unless you play a really bad and slow list (like waterdragons), you should not care to much about it.
the MUD I know doesn't Play Bridge Maindeck. And even if they do they don't drop it Turn 1 against a random opponent...
And about Pact of Negation or Chancellor of the Annex:
Pact of Negation is only better when:
It is drawn after turn 1.
Or if the game goes longer then 2 turns.
Or if you draw multiple of them.
He has a free counter and one mana open.
Pact of Negation only helps against graveyardhate and counter (and also only if you don't play lion's eye diamond).
Chancellor of the Annex helps also against:
Opponent playing fastcombo
Discard
Cheap permanent hate (when he starts).
You need a card to imprint in Chrome mox.
@nudon I think in your list with the Lion's Eye Diamond I also would not play the Bridge from Below. But in a list without it, it helps often enough.
Drawing 1 Narcomoeba and 1 Combo piece and having the Spy means you need it allready.
Tigris, I agree with your accessment regarding pact/chancellor and wanted to add I personally think chancellor is better for this deck because all the gy permanent hate that would normally not be live against belcher is good against this deck. Also, pact isn't good if you're transforming into an etw/belcher/doomsday/etc sb since you might not be able to win that turn. I removed the nature's claim from my board and now have a 3-3 split between chancellor and leyline of sanctity.
I think you mean drawing 1 narcomoeba, 1 combo piece, and 1 informer since the spy can be sac'ed to cabal therapy. There might be merit to bridge, but only if you're not running LED + living wish/infernal tutor package.
We have plenty of name suggestions already... I for instance was voting for "spy hard", but now I kind of like "the undercity breakfast" someone said a while ago.
I like "undercity spy" but "undercity/balustrade breakfast" is cool too since it pays homage to cephalid's win-con.
People on mtg the source named it "the rogue hermit"
People on The Source have also been discussing the name. The original poster there even brought up changing the deck name. There is no consensus to what the naming should be and people are posturing to leave their mark on the community.
My suggestion, the first to do well at a large tournament gets naming privileges.
People on The Source have also been discussing the name. The original poster there even brought up changing the deck name. There is no consensus to what the naming should be and people are posturing to leave their mark on the community.
My suggestion, the first to do well at a large tournament gets naming privileges.
I agree with this. I know if I manage to I will name the deck: "Rogue" because the main creatures are both rogues and this deck will be a rogue deck.
Rogue, Spy hard, Undercity spy, grindhouse, all have some merit. Yet to me, Dead Drop is the best, simple yet elegant.
Rogue is okay, but too vague. Spy Hard doesn't mention the Informer side of things, and yet Undercity Spy is a bit too blunt and stumbling. Grindhouse doesn't catch the genre of the deck, as any grindhouse film afficionado will attest.
Dead Drop captures both the elements of espionage and the physical act of dropping the whole library into the Graveyard, quite literally a drop into death. The work dead evokes the all in black side of the deck. Dead Drop marries the mechanical function of the deck to the intangible necessity for fitting flavor.
Dead drop is a name truly worthy of such a novel deck design.
YMTC: We need a spikey red enchantment. My creations:
RR
Whenever a player taps a nonbasic land, [Card] deals 2 damage to them.
-or-
R
Whenever a player would gain life, flip a coin. If heads, that player loses that much life instead. If tails sacrifice [card] and that player gains that life as per usual.
I like the name 'All Spells', shortened from the SCG 'Oops, All Spells.' It really fits well. The deck is defined by having no lands. The entire core mechanic relies on it having no lands. Even Charbelcher usually has a couple of lands, but it's not defined by not having any. This deck is pretty unique in throwing the entire library into the graveyard for it to work, which it cannot do without being all spells, coupled with that being the win condition. If 'All Spells' doesn't sit right though, I could see Drop Dead or Dead Drop.
Additionally, I really don't care for the Charbelcher transformational sideboard that some are using. Without using the sideboard for combo protection in the form on Chancellor of the annex, Pact of Negation, and Nature's Claim I cannot see it doing well in games 2-3, it's just too much of a glass cannon and a subpar charbelcher.
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"When you're playing legacy everyday is Christmas." ~Moa
"You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
~Barook
I like to call it "i accidentally my deck." i've been saying that a
lot when i tip the deck over and win lol. (they're trying to figure out the verb i left out :P) I'm not to sure on a name though. Table manners was good. I mean seriously its 60 card pick up lol, how rude~ any silly name for this works cause its pretty fun lol.
Also, one more important thing, he lost the first game in that round due to not having odious trow/deathrite shaman mainboard to fetch with a summoner's pact to imprint in a chrome mox. I don't think we can afford this... It should be an auto-include...
You are never going to cast said creature for profit correct? So it could also be Slitherhead, or Llanowar Dead, Only going to use it as an way to search for a Green and Black creature to imprint with Summoner's Pact?
but Deathrite Shaman seems like the best... based on the off chance that you can't combo off and drop him in to play... (Doesn't seem like what you want to be doing.)
Well, trow, slitherhead even if you play them, they won't give you value.
Llanowar dead costs 2, and specific.
DRS costs 1, and hell, with the amount of fetchlands every deck is playing, it isn't totally unreasonable to cast him off of a chrome mox if you did not use summoner's pact. It could give us access to 2 mana on the board on turn two.
I am down with the idea of testing out DRS in the deck as a one off. He does help Chrome Mox turn on black mana not to mention if you ever do cast him can throw your opponent off a bit plus work toward mana generation himself.
Also, one more important thing, he lost the first game in that round due to not having odious trow/deathrite shaman mainboard to fetch with a summoner's pact to imprint in a chrome mox. I don't think we can afford this... It should be an auto-include...
He could've put the ritual he topdecked under the mox for his black then gone off that turn...I'm pretty sure he lost that game due to letting a blue combo deck dig up Force instead of trying to go off ASAP. He was dead to force either way, he should've gone for it. That and not bringing back his Undercity Informers when the angel hit play had me yelling at the tv quite a bit.
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:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:Oops! All Spells:symg::symr::symb::symu::symw:
:symu::symb:Reanimator:symb::symu:
"It's actually quite simple, but since you've only recently begun to walk upright,
it may take some time to explain." Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
Dropbox: You can lose a flash drive, but you'll never lose a dropbox!
Enchantress plays 1 Rest in Peace main, and as long as they don't know my deck exactly, they will not play like this.
Countertop plays silence main? Or Torpor orb (which doesn't always matter to the combo) or blind obedience?
Jund plays Surgical Extraction main?
MUD plays Ensnaring Bridge main?
Enchantment destruction and Path to exile DOES NOT HELP!!!
Is it that hard to understand, that we play Inquisition of Kozilek?
Oh and No one plays Whispmare main...
We should focus the MAINBOARD for the FIRST game, where the opponent has no niche sideboardcards....
Especially what do you want to say with this scenarios? That the Deck can be hated? Wow thank you I didn't know that....
This is really helpful brainstorming....
I mean what should the mainboard of this deck do:
Having a CHANCE to Win against really unlikely scenarios.
Or Having High probability to win against players with no hate?
And if you are talking about the second game:
If the opponents are boarding Elephant Grass
or Whispmare or Nature's Claim or Ensnaring Bridge then THANK YOU STUPID OPPONENT!
I mean why should I play the same combokill in the second game?
This Deck cannot board a lot of cards, so having 3 cards in the Sideboard for another win, is reasonable, or maybe even having (as many have) a transformation sideboard.
Especially when opponents start to board such stupid things!
This kill needs one slot less, and is (in the first game!!!) As good as any other kill, if opponents are starting to board stupid things it is even better then the other kills!
1. Every player saing exiled or battlefield will be kicked out.
2. Not using you mana deals 2 points of manaburn.
3. Combat damage goes over the Stack and you can freely assign it.
4. Lifelinks does stack and doesn't safe you from dying.
5. Tokens are owned bye the one who has made them.
Everyone thinking M10 will not affect a lot of cards or Limited a lot, either has no clue about magic or has never played limited or is getting paid by wizards to do propaganda.
the scenario's shown on your post is almost fictional as most card in the scenario's are SB cards or hate cards. example. we dont play MB surgical in jund. and i dont like surgical... i play extirpate only in games 2-3.
the main problem for this deck is these turn 1.
Leyline of the void (which i doubt anyone uses it)
force of will at hand ( which can be discarded)
PTE/STP (which can be discarded)
all of these are answerable to our discard spells and/or chancellor of the annex
anything than i listed IMHO shouldn't be a problem.
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV
UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tron GR
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
Personally, I don't think Prosak's list of 8 win-cons is enough. Belcher runs burning wish -> etw for a reason. Thus, I like the living wish + LED -> spy package. Having those 3 extra win-cons (+4 wish, -1 spy) really helps. Others have tested my list on mtgthesource and have been getting similar results to me (50-60% t1 kill rate, >70% t2). One other individual even got 73% t1 kill for 100 goldfishes with my list.
//Gatecrash Cards
4 Undercity Informer
3 Balustrade Spy
//Mana Fix with Pact
1 Wild Cantor
2 Manamorphose
//Mana Generation
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
//Draw & Tutors
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Living Wish
//Protection
2 Cabal Therapy
//Combo
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Laboratory Maniac
//Sideboard
SB: 1 Balustrade Spy
SB: 1 Cavern of Souls
SB: 1 Swamp
SB: 2 Unmask
SB: 2 Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 Nature's Claim
SB: 1 Goblin Charbelcher
SB: 1 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
I've never had an issue of needing to get cards out of my hand aside from having 2 narcs + no spy (mulligan) thanks to 2 cabal therapy. LED also does double work by discarding our hand if needed. The main problem I'm having is deciding what to do with the sb. There are too many cards to board out if I want to do a full transformation. Right now, I'm leaning towards a sb that protects my combo or boarding in belchers. Let me know what you think.
Edit: Updated my current SB:
SB: 1 Balustrade Spy
SB: 1 Cavern of Souls
SB: 1 Swamp
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 4 Chancellor of the Annex
SB: 4 Goblin Charbelcher
http://deckstats.net/deck-1936205-a2a8f82bddd288a285462e9861e1e50a.html
SB: 1 Cavern of Souls - anti-blue
SB: 1 Swamp - mana fix
SB: 4 Nature's Claim - leyline/crypt/relic
SB: 4 Chancellor of the Annex - comes in for chancellor of the tangle
SB: 4 Goblin Charbelcher - comes in for living wish and/or spy against heavy gy/counter hate
Just Goldfished 66% Turn 1 kill (76% T2, 83% T3). Same list I posted earlier.
Some notable lines of play:
T1:Azami, Mox, Pact, Wraith, Wraith, Spy, Narco
Wraith>Mox, Wraith>Probe, Probe>DRit.
Pact>Odious Trow, Mox(Trow), Mox(Narco), BBBU>Spy
Sac Spy to CT for Azami, sac 3 Narco for Dread Return to win on turn 1.
I've had several games like this, but the lesson is clear, Spy, by staying on the field, allows for much more aggressive lines of play.
T1:Petal, ESG, Drit, MM, Probe, Probe, Wraith
Wraith>Informer, win.
This is the only hand I kept out of the 100 games I played that I kept without a Spy/Informer. I guess the lesson is, the risk sometimes is worth it.
The deck can mulligan fairly aggressively. Down to 5 can still T1 win quite often. I won five games (of 100) on T1 mulling to 4.
I don't think I'll be running Bridge from Below. There weren't as many situations where it was relevant as you'd think, the main thing I could see it helping with is if you have 2 or 3 CTs so they always hit something, but the opponent should focus on stopping our mill enabler anyway, so CT is actually irrelevant most of the times you cast it on the opponent. They can respond to CT by using Surgical Extraction. They should honestly just Force the Spy/Informer. There are very few hate spells its relevant from the GY against.
Also, I know I'm not the best combo player, as this is the first combo deck I've ever assembled and played, but it's actually a really interesting approach at the game.
1) Yes, most of the scenarios he listed are likely. Did he say this was all G1 and that you would always lose the die roll? No. That is not what he said at all. But the cards he listed are heavily played in sideboards, for the most part, and they will crush you.
2) Yes, you need to prepare for these hate cards. I don't care what your turn 1 rate is. My turn 1 rate with Cheeri0s is approaching 80% with recent lists, and I still have tons of sideboard counterhate for Chalice of the Void, Counterbalance, Force, Spell Pierce, Daze, Thoughtseize/Duress/IoK, Leyline of Sanctity, Thalia, Stony Silence, Surgical Extraction. If I did not prepare for them, I would lose to them, hard, because my opponents do bring them in, they do mull to them, and I do end up fighting through them with my sideboard.
MUD does play Bridge maindeck. FoW/Daze/Pierce/Stifle will eat you for breakfast. Cage will make you cry. Chalice of the Void will be something to scoop to (and don't believe for a second they won't play it @0 turn 1). Torpor Orb does, in fact, always matter. There is no wincon available that is not shut down by Orb.
Defending the deck is one thing, but you cannot outright deny the existence or efficiency of hate cards. If you do so, you are compromising the deck. If you want this deck to succeed, be harshly honest with it. Expect the worst. Prepare for as much as you can. Recognize what commonly played cards are going to stop you, and never, ever believe that your counterhate is enough.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
We were talking about G1 at least I was if you or the dragon would have read my post.
My point was, that his really bad mainboard is really bad, because it cannot kill (quickly)
Then bringing arguments about G2 is ridicolous. For G2 one we also have a sideboard!
Yes you have to consider this things FOR GAME 2! And therefore the Deck has a sideboard!
And this things are not worth to cripple your MAINDECK in Game 1.
But NO one will play G1 T1 Chalice of the Void for 0 in general. Of course if he somehow know what deck you are playing he might do that, but chances he don't know are way higher.
Toror Orb costs 2 Mana so unless you play a really bad and slow list (like waterdragons), you should not care to much about it.
the MUD I know doesn't Play Bridge Maindeck. And even if they do they don't drop it Turn 1 against a random opponent...
And about Pact of Negation or Chancellor of the Annex:
Pact of Negation is only better when:
It is drawn after turn 1.
Or if the game goes longer then 2 turns.
Or if you draw multiple of them.
He has a free counter and one mana open.
Pact of Negation only helps against graveyardhate and counter (and also only if you don't play lion's eye diamond).
Chancellor of the Annex helps also against:
Opponent playing fastcombo
Discard
Cheap permanent hate (when he starts).
You need a card to imprint in Chrome mox.
@nudon I think in your list with the Lion's Eye Diamond I also would not play the Bridge from Below. But in a list without it, it helps often enough.
Drawing 1 Narcomoeba and 1 Combo piece and having the Spy means you need it allready.
1. Every player saing exiled or battlefield will be kicked out.
2. Not using you mana deals 2 points of manaburn.
3. Combat damage goes over the Stack and you can freely assign it.
4. Lifelinks does stack and doesn't safe you from dying.
5. Tokens are owned bye the one who has made them.
Everyone thinking M10 will not affect a lot of cards or Limited a lot, either has no clue about magic or has never played limited or is getting paid by wizards to do propaganda.
The best formula I can think of for coming up with a name are Engine+wincon.
The because the deck uses a spy and an informer, the name will have to do with espionage. I like the word "Covert." The deck wins by dumping itself into the graveyard. Kind of like a dead drop.
THats it!
Covert dead drop, or maybe just Dead Drop. The perfect espionage name.
You heard it here first, people. Dead Drop.
Whenever a player taps a nonbasic land, [Card] deals 2 damage to them.
-or-
R
Whenever a player would gain life, flip a coin. If heads, that player loses that much life instead. If tails sacrifice [card] and that player gains that life as per usual.
Fires Rf Salvation
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Tigris, I agree with your accessment regarding pact/chancellor and wanted to add I personally think chancellor is better for this deck because all the gy permanent hate that would normally not be live against belcher is good against this deck. Also, pact isn't good if you're transforming into an etw/belcher/doomsday/etc sb since you might not be able to win that turn. I removed the nature's claim from my board and now have a 3-3 split between chancellor and leyline of sanctity.
I think you mean drawing 1 narcomoeba, 1 combo piece, and 1 informer since the spy can be sac'ed to cabal therapy. There might be merit to bridge, but only if you're not running LED + living wish/infernal tutor package.
I like "undercity spy" but "undercity/balustrade breakfast" is cool too since it pays homage to cephalid's win-con.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
People on The Source have also been discussing the name. The original poster there even brought up changing the deck name. There is no consensus to what the naming should be and people are posturing to leave their mark on the community.
My suggestion, the first to do well at a large tournament gets naming privileges.
I agree with this. I know if I manage to I will name the deck: "Rogue" because the main creatures are both rogues and this deck will be a rogue deck.
Rogue is okay, but too vague. Spy Hard doesn't mention the Informer side of things, and yet Undercity Spy is a bit too blunt and stumbling. Grindhouse doesn't catch the genre of the deck, as any grindhouse film afficionado will attest.
Dead Drop captures both the elements of espionage and the physical act of dropping the whole library into the Graveyard, quite literally a drop into death. The work dead evokes the all in black side of the deck. Dead Drop marries the mechanical function of the deck to the intangible necessity for fitting flavor.
Dead drop is a name truly worthy of such a novel deck design.
Whenever a player taps a nonbasic land, [Card] deals 2 damage to them.
-or-
R
Whenever a player would gain life, flip a coin. If heads, that player loses that much life instead. If tails sacrifice [card] and that player gains that life as per usual.
Fires Rf Salvation
Additionally, I really don't care for the Charbelcher transformational sideboard that some are using. Without using the sideboard for combo protection in the form on Chancellor of the annex, Pact of Negation, and Nature's Claim I cannot see it doing well in games 2-3, it's just too much of a glass cannon and a subpar charbelcher.
"You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
~Barook
Standard: Pure Jank:p
Modern: UB Control:cool2:
Legacy: Death & Taxes
Vintage: UWR Geist Fish
EDH: Thassa,Obzedat
O.N.S. or OOPS!
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
I like to call it "i accidentally my deck." i've been saying that a
lot when i tip the deck over and win lol. (they're trying to figure out the verb i left out :P) I'm not to sure on a name though. Table manners was good. I mean seriously its 60 card pick up lol, how rude~ any silly name for this works cause its pretty fun lol.
R GOBLINSR
WDeath and taxesW
WRParfaitRW
around what time on the video did he do that? i have to see this lol
R GOBLINSR
WDeath and taxesW
WRParfaitRW
You are never going to cast said creature for profit correct? So it could also be Slitherhead, or Llanowar Dead, Only going to use it as an way to search for a Green and Black creature to imprint with Summoner's Pact?
but Deathrite Shaman seems like the best... based on the off chance that you can't combo off and drop him in to play... (Doesn't seem like what you want to be doing.)
[Legacy]
ANT
Imperial Painter
I am down with the idea of testing out DRS in the deck as a one off. He does help Chrome Mox turn on black mana not to mention if you ever do cast him can throw your opponent off a bit plus work toward mana generation himself.
He could've put the ritual he topdecked under the mox for his black then gone off that turn...I'm pretty sure he lost that game due to letting a blue combo deck dig up Force instead of trying to go off ASAP. He was dead to force either way, he should've gone for it. That and not bringing back his Undercity Informers when the angel hit play had me yelling at the tv quite a bit.
it may take some time to explain."
Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
thx !:D