Unfortunately, this means playing cards that do nothing unless they're in your opening 8. But the same could be said for Gitaxian Probe, the baubles, and Street Wraith (besides being food for Ichorid). The question is, which has more utility? Draw spells seem to be better in general, but fetches open up the sideboard quite a bit.
EDIT:
Well, I tested my supposedly anti-combo list in an MTGO Daily, and went a lukewarm 2-2. Here's the list for reference:
The sideboard is in disrepair and needs much attention. Leyline of the Void might not be a terrible addition, for instance. In general the deck felt OK if a bit clunky, but I think Bloodghast showed some promise, and may just take the place of Nether Shadow in the future.
Round 1, I lost to Hive Mind with very early Show and Tells.
Round 2, I won against... Hive Mind, mostly in part due to very slow draws on my opponent's part.
Round 3, I won against Elf Combo 2-1, losing game 2 when Relic of Progenitus forced my hand with Phantasmagorian, mulliganning me to 4. Game 3 I think he mulliganned pretty aggressively and had no action.
Round 4, I lost to what looked like Rausch's Manaless Dredge with baubles thrown in. I won game 1, even after starting with a very slow Dakmor Salvage into no dredger, but I thankfully drew a Golgari Thug. The three Bloodghasts in my hand meant that I was able to dredge my entire deck in one turn and win. Game 2 I had the same slow Dakmor Salvage draw, compared with my opponent's Golgari Grave-Troll/Street Wraith/Urza's Bauble start, killing me with X/1s before I could get off the ground. I lost game 3 pretty hard. The tragic part is my hand was the nuts: Golgari Grave-Troll, Street Wraith, and Gitaxian Probe are just what I remember. But once I saw those cards, I knew I would be getting Leylined for sure.
Overall, I guess 2-2 isn't terrible against an all-combo Daily. I think the real proof will be when I can find a control deck to play against, if this thing can still function on the don't-cast-anything plan.
EDIT 2:
Before I forget: Fetches, beyond having applications with Dryad Arbor and Bloodghast, also have the side-benefit of combatting Relic's tap ability. Fetches could make up for the lack of baubles in this aspect.
Thanks for the report!
Was the other Manaless player 2-1 when you faced off? If he was, that implies the Manaless record in the daily was 5-3 which is not absurd but not bad either.
My main gripe against Bloodghast is that he takes up so much deck-space when you bring Dakmor Salvage along to reanimate him. Obviously, if you're planning on starting with a land in hand a reasonable amount of the time anyway you can cut back to ~1 Salvage and benefit.
I don't like the fetch plan, but given the relatively high profile of Manaless at the moment (and the Mana Dredge deck that slipped into the top 8 alongside it) Leyline might be so prevalent as to justify it.
I definitely think the short-term plan of boarding Leyline of the Void is sweet for every deck right now, but Bojuka Bog is a much better plan if they can deal with Leyline eventually. (Therefore once the hubbub dies down I'd switch over to Bogs in the board)
There's also the super-janky Leyline of the Void + Leyline of Singularity plan, although that's at least 2 cards out of our hand... also you have to reconfigure the deck (or at least sideboard) to less frequently put out multiple creatures of the same name.
Looking at it, it should still function just fine on the pure DDD plan.
Another thought occurs to me: If we want to get really next-level against Tendrils, we can assume they'll draw and put us on the play. This opens up T1 Chalice of the Void as an option in the sideboard. Lion's Eye Diamond might just be better in that situation, though.
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Was the other Manaless player 2-1 when you faced off? If he was, that implies the Manaless record in the daily was 5-3 which is not absurd but not bad either.
Through the magic of replays, I can tell you even more than his being 2-1 when we faced off:
Round 1, he lost 0-2 to NO RUG's Tarmogoyf beats, with an appearance by Umezawa's Jitte in game 2 (Jitte is so annoying).
Round 2, he won 2-1 against Zoo. In game 2, his opponent opted not to make a block that would exile his Bridges, even though he had Dread Return covered with Gaddock Teeg and a Tarmogoyf to block Ichorid. Game 3, his opponent opted to shock him with his Grim Lavamancer rather than exile his Bridges, again with Teeg in play, which led a zombie apocalypse.
Round 3, he won 2-0 against what I can only assume was NO RUG. In game 1, a zombie army bashed its way through 2 6/7 Tarmogoyfs. In game 3, he faced a turn 1 Relic, discarding Narcomoebas until he found a Street Wraith. His opponent had a super slow draw, plopping down a Tarmogoyf on turn 4. He also used his Relic very conservatively, opting to pop it when the board was Noble Hierarch to 4 zombie tokens. Of course, our hero was able to discard the next turn and laid down some more beats.
I also noticed that he never stacked his Phantasmagorian activations, even in game 1. Not knowing his hand, I don't know how much this hurt him.
My main gripe against Bloodghast is that he takes up so much deck-space when you bring Dakmor Salvage along to reanimate him.
Can you elaborate on this some more? The way I see it, Dakmor Salvage takes the place of Shambling Shell. By themselves, both are do-nothings other than being bad dredgers. Is Dredge 3 that much better than Dredge 2, and does being Ichorid food matter that much?
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Can you elaborate on this some more? The way I see it, Dakmor Salvage takes the place of Shambling Shell. By themselves, both are do-nothings other than being bad dredgers. Is Dredge 3 that much better than Dredge 2, and does being Ichorid food matter that much?
The main value of the Dredge 3 cards, in my opinion, is that they help you reach a critical mass of Dredgers to ensure that you basically always find your actually-worthwhile dredgers in a timely manner. Typically, it takes me two turns of Dredge 3 to find a better dredger. This means 6 cards on average, which means 3 turns with a Dredge 2, hence the Time Walk comment. Additionally, more Shambling Shell help feed Ichorid (not a big deal, in this deck) and help trigger Nether Shadow without relying as heavily on Phantasmagorian, which I think is a little bit important.
The main value is definitely increasing consistency/speed by having "Dredge 3" instead of "Dredge 2", as you dig 1 and a half times as fast. To put it differently, there's very little difference in whether the deck is functioning at Dredge 5 or Dredge 6, but the difference between Dredge 2 and Dredge 3 is the difference (in terms of cards you see) between having a Howling Mine sitting around and casting Ancestral Recall every turn. To put it even more differently, Dredge 2 is merely okay, while Dredge 3 lets us dig through the deck looking for a dredger at precisely the same rate as Bazaar of Baghdad. We spend more deck space in Legacy doing that than they do in Vintage, but we also have a much slower and less hateful format.
Obviously we can build the deck however we'd like, but it deserves mention that Rausch ran Dakmor Salvage in addition to Shambling Shell, which obviously means cutting something else.
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The main value is definitely increasing consistency/speed by having "Dredge 3" instead of "Dredge 2", as you dig 1 and a half times as fast. To put it differently, there's very little difference in whether the deck is functioning at Dredge 5 or Dredge 6, but the difference between Dredge 2 and Dredge 3 is the difference (in terms of cards you see) between having a Howling Mine sitting around and casting Ancestral Recall every turn. To put it even more differently, Dredge 2 is merely okay, while Dredge 3 lets us dig through the deck looking for a dredger at precisely the same rate as Bazaar of Baghdad. We spend more deck space in Legacy doing that than they do in Vintage, but we also have a much slower and less hateful format.
Stop making sense. I suppose my illogical feeling of Shambling Shell has always been "Man, this is the absolute worst. He's so slow and never finds a dredger the first time around." I've always thought of it as a threshold, like Shambling Shell = bad and Dakmor Salvage = bad, whereas Golgari Thug = fine, Stinkweed Imp = good, and Golgari Grave-Troll = the nuts.
Unfortunately, a deck running Bloodghast, if it uses solely Dakmore Salvage, is probably going to need 3-4 so that you can reliably and repeatedly return Bloodghasts.
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So I added Leyline of the Void to the sideboard, and I'm batting a thousand with the deck in the 2-man queues (1 for 1, oh yeah!). I might have had a bit of help from my opponent (oddversionof Reanimator) game 3, but Leyline of the Void definitely carried its weight that game even when I was dredging twice per turn. And I thought getting Cliqued was awesome! Come to think of it, this is somehow actually better than when Rausch's opponent (Runeflare Trap) played a Howling Mine.
EDIT:
Now 5-0. Man, late night 2-man queues are quite the jankfest, but I certainly can't complain about $2 packs. The only "real" deck I played against was Affinity, which I think I turn 3'd both games. Also of note, Leyline of Sanctity performed admirably in game 3 against a very slow blue 12-post deck that could fetch upBojuka Bogs, copy them, and tutor forRelics.
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chalice could be a good idea but it's like leyline , they'll bounce it
i think combo will still be the hardest manaless dredge MU (execpt helm/leyline deck lol)
i have a preference for iona and ancestor in this MU , but all our dread target useful in this MU (execpt ancestor) can be bounced
Chalice of the Void can potentially cut them off of enough artifact mana to earn its turns back (i.e. they can't necessarily just go off through it), which is something that Leyline of Sanctity basically never does. An interesting anti-combo suggestion I've seen elsewhere is Mental Misstep, presumably to counter Dark Ritual. The nice thing about this is that the spell is pretty reasonable generally, and could be included to nab Relic of Progenitus or some other 1-drop against the relevant decks.
Sphinx of Lost Truths > Deep Analysis, so I'd only go with the Sun Titan plan if you're running LED anyway and you're running some other CMC 3 or less permanents that benefit from Sun Titan's effect.
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I'm in the Legacy Premier Event right now, and I figured I would keep a running tally of the decks I face, rather than try to remember what happened after the event.
Round 1 vs. Hive Mind (W 2-0)
Game 1, on turn 3 I therapied a Show and Tell out of his hand, which is good because he also had a grip of Hive Mind and 3 pacts. Next turn I was able to go off.
Round 2 vs. UW Stoneforge (W 2-0)
Game 1, I combo'd out turn 3.
Game 2, I started to combo out turn 4, but my opponent bounced his Batterskull in response to the Bridge triggers created from Dread Returning a Flame-kin Zealot, neutering my attack (I always forget they can do that :cool2:). Still, I was able to strip the Batterskull from his hand and get him down to 2 life from Sphinx beats, leading him to concede on his turn. Of note, I didn't see any graveyard hate.
Round 3 vs. NO Bant (L 1-2)
Game 1, I turn 3'd him, but could've survived to turn 4 if needed.
Round 5 vs. Hive Mind (W 2-0)
Game 1 was super awkward for both of us. He had enough mana acceleration to rawdog a Hive Mind, but couldn't find the namesake card. I got a bit greedy with Phantasmagorian, dumping Golgari Grave-Troll and some stuff. The Troll didn't find me any dredgers, but somehow Nether Shadow, Ichorid, Bloodghast, and zombie beats killed him on turn 4.
Game 2, he dropped double Leyline of Sanctity, which didn't bother me too much considering I couldn't find a Cabal Therapy anyway. I had an uncommon dredge into 4 Bridges, so I went for the Dread Return rather than bash since, even if it got countered, I would kill him next turn. Even though I was able to dredge 16 cards, I couldn't find the second Dread Return to continue. It was a moot point because he didn't find the combo and he conceded before I swung for the win on turn 4. I didn't see any graveyard hate.
Game 2, he mulled to 5 and put on some pressure with Knight of the Reliquary while I was faltering with small dredgers. The Knight terrified me because he could A) sacrifice his Dryad Arbor at will and B) possibly fetch up a Bojuka Bog. Instead, he Crypted me and always attacked with the Knight, leaving me free to combo out at 1 life.
Top 8 Quarterfinals vs. Hive Mind (Round 1 Opponent) (W 2-0)
Game 1, he scares me with Show and Tell but it only produces an Emrakul which I combo through. Scarily enough, when I saw his hand, he had Slaughter Pact and Hive Mind in hand. What's even scarier is I put in a Narcomoeba off the Show and Tell. *shudder*
Semifinals vs. NO Bant (Round 3 Opponent) (L 1-2)
Game 1, I combo'd him on turn 4 under little pressure. I think I could've turn 3'd but he had Mental Misstep and double Force of Will.
Game 2, his opener had Leyline of the Void. Game 3, he mulled to 5 or 6 and found the dastardly enchantment again.
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Gotta say I LOVE this deck. I've never liked Dredge, but this one really pushes it to another level at least in my book. I'll be looking forward to test this on my own toO!
I'm in the Legacy Premier Event right now, and I figured I would keep a running tally of the decks I face, rather than try to remember what happened after the event.
Round 1 vs. Hive Mind (W 2-0)
Game 1, on turn 3 I therapied a Show and Tell out of his hand, which is good because he also had a grip of Hive Mind and 3 pacts. Next turn I was able to go off.
Round 2 vs. UW Stoneforge (W 2-0)
Game 1, I combo'd out turn 3.
Game 2, I started to combo out turn 4, but my opponent bounced his Batterskull in response to the Bridge triggers created from Dread Returning a Flame-kin Zealot, neutering my attack (I always forget they can do that :cool2:). Still, I was able to strip the Batterskull from his hand and get him down to 2 life from Sphinx beats, leading him to concede on his turn. Of note, I didn't see any graveyard hate.
Round 3 vs. NO Bant (L 1-2)
Game 1, I turn 3'd him, but could've survived to turn 4 if needed.
Round 5 vs. Hive Mind (W 2-0)
Game 1 was super awkward for both of us. He had enough mana acceleration to rawdog a Hive Mind, but couldn't find the namesake card. I got a bit greedy with Phantasmagorian, dumping Golgari Grave-Troll and some stuff. The Troll didn't find me any dredgers, but somehow Nether Shadow, Ichorid, Bloodghast, and zombie beats killed him on turn 4.
Game 2, he dropped double Leyline of Sanctity, which didn't bother me too much considering I couldn't find a Cabal Therapy anyway. I had an uncommon dredge into 4 Bridges, so I went for the Dread Return rather than bash since, even if it got countered, I would kill him next turn. Even though I was able to dredge 16 cards, I couldn't find the second Dread Return to continue. It was a moot point because he didn't find the combo and he conceded before I swung for the win on turn 4. I didn't see any graveyard hate.
Game 2, he mulled to 5 and put on some pressure with Knight of the Reliquary while I was faltering with small dredgers. The Knight terrified me because he could A) sacrifice his Dryad Arbor at will and B) possibly fetch up a Bojuka Bog. Instead, he Crypted me and always attacked with the Knight, leaving me free to combo out at 1 life.
Top 8 Quarterfinals vs. Hive Mind (Round 1 Opponent) (W 2-0)
Game 1, he scares me with Show and Tell but it only produces an Emrakul which I combo through. Scarily enough, when I saw his hand, he had Slaughter Pact and Hive Mind in hand. What's even scarier is I put in a Narcomoeba off the Show and Tell. *shudder*
Semifinals vs. NO Bant (Round 3 Opponent) (L 1-2)
Game 1, I combo'd him on turn 4 under little pressure. I think I could've turn 3'd but he had Mental Misstep and double Force of Will.
Game 2, his opener had Leyline of the Void. Game 3, he mulled to 5 or 6 and found the dastardly enchantment again.
How many players were there altogether?
Was there anything you particularly liked or disliked about the deck?
You got a surprising number of Turn 2 kills... I think I'm going to have to test your list again, as it seems faster than my testing indicated.
I think bouncing Batterskull is secretly a terrible play against us, because it kills Bridge from Below while ensuring that we don't need it. It's better than Howling Mine, for sure, but spending 3 turns (with Stoneforge Mystic) to remove our bridges and deal 1 point of damage (or even 5) is hardly game-breaking (much less game-winning, as you saw).
How was your sideboard? I don't really see any mentions of it, although right now it's probably wrong not to run Leyline of the Void unless you're running a really fast combo deck... which we sort-of are. Still, it's got to be a solid choice right now. Were there a lot of other graveyard decks that you just didn't happen to hit, or was LotV not great for this tournament? (Edit: It looks like an overwhelmingly blue field, which obviously makes your sideboard fairly irrelevant as you just win; looking at it again, there was literally a playset of hate in the tournament that was responsible for every one of your game losses)
Leyline of Sanctity seems a little weak... were you worried about Tormod's Crypt? (I think I like Mental Misstep a lot more where you'd want Leyline, although obvious there are a few relevant cards that can't be Misstepped, such as Crypt).
Also, Congrats! 5-1 in the Swiss is pretty awesome!
Edit: Did you mulligan at all? Did you have any questionable keeps in order not to mulligan?
Edit 2: I think from your results it looks like we could see a stack-based, blue-dominated metagame continue to exist, only with 11-card sideboards instead of 15 (due to Leyline of the Void).
How many players were there altogether?
Was there anything you particularly liked or disliked about the deck?
(EDIT: I think there were about 33 players.)
I still haven't put my finger on what exactly it is, but the deck feels clunky. Stuff like opening hands of only Dakmor Salvage and not having enough fodder for Ichorid, at least in the sense that I was reluctant to eat Bloodghasts, contribute to that feeling. However, I was always ecstatic to see a Dakmor Salvage in my opener, as long as it was with a larger dredger. And I think that's part of the puzzle - Dakmor Salvage, even being the crappiest of dredgers, is one of the rare cards that has utility in your graveyard and in your opening hand.
I'm definitely glad to see that this list held its own against fair decks, even if it was by comboing most of the time.
I think with the matchups I faced, any Manaless Dredge list could cruise through them, at least the non-Hive Mind decks. I've never played an 8-bauble list against Hive Mind, so I don't know how it would fare, but I got fairly lucky against them, too. Also, graveyard hate was very, very light barring the guy with Leyline of the Voids. I'm pretty sure the worst I saw was Tormod's Crypt. So I really didn't get a sense of how well this list does against moderate hate, but I would imagine it's worse than a bauble list.
You got a surprising number of Turn 2 kills... I think I'm going to have to test your list again, as it seems faster than my testing indicated.
To be fair, if I recall the hands correctly, I think most Manaless lists could've gone turn 2 with double-to-quad cantrip starts, although my list is definitely better at taking advantage of busted openers.
How was your sideboard? I don't really see any mentions of it, although right now it's probably wrong not to run Leyline of the Void unless you're running a really fast combo deck... which we sort-of are. Still, it's got to be a solid choice right now. Were there a lot of other graveyard decks that you just didn't happen to hit, or was LotV not great for this tournament? (Edit: It looks like an overwhelmingly blue field, which obviously makes your sideboard fairly irrelevant as you just win)
Yeah, the sideboard might as well have been 15x Squire. I think the only sideboard move I made every match was -2 Phantasmagorian +1 Blazing Archon +1 Angel of Despair in anticipation of not needing a Phantasmagorian in my opener. I don't remember what I did against Hive Mind, but Archon and Angel are certainly live against Show and Tell into Emrakul. Then again, that can be a fast matchup, so I might've left in the Phantasmagorians. I can't remember :rolleyes:. Either way, neither of those guys ever made it to the battlefield, although I suppose the times I faced down an Emrakul they would've been useful had I not been able to combo that turn.
EDIT:
Re: Leyline of the Void
I threw these in, probably a bit irrationally, after losing to a Manaless Dredge player with Leylines, even though I clearly had the edge otherwise by being combo-oriented. My argument would be that A) I figured Manaless Dredge would show up a lot more because it's cheap and it won, and B) it helps against other troublesome unfair decks, like Reanimator, Cephalid Breakfast, and Mana Dredge.
Leyline of Sanctity seems a little weak... were you worried about Tormod's Crypt? (I think I like Mental Misstep a lot more where you'd want Leyline, although obvious there are a few relevant cards that can't be Misstepped, such as Crypt).
What, you've already forgotten about my (irrational?*) fear of Storm decks? While I intended this list to maybe be able to hang with Storm, it's still obviously a godawful matchup.
I do like the idea of Mental Misstep in the sideboard, but I don't think it's so great by itself against Storm. But with Leyline to protect it, and with Mental Misstep to protect Leyline, oh yeah. I'll definitely think about it.
* Not completely irrational. I always see JWestLake at the top of the dailies, and he's always packing Ad Nauseams. In fact, I narrowly missed him in the last round (thankfully, I was paired up) and in the quarterfinals.
Edit: Did you mulligan at all? Did you have any questionable keeps in order not to mulligan?
I don't think I mulliganned at all in this tournament, but I may have once. Either way, all of the hands I kept had at least one dredger in them, and I never mulliganned a hand with a dredger in it. But some of those Dakmor Salvage hands I wish I could've gotten a do-over on.
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if you use main/sideboard with dryad and reverrent silence i think not
otherwise i think yeah it's auto scoop as we can't cast anything ^^
Is it really worth it to SB these though, when there's relevant hate you might need against other decks? Leyline of the Void isn't a super-common SB card. I'm of the opinion that if they get it out, you're pretty hosed and unless you come up with a god hand that has both Reverent Silence and the Dryad Arbor, there's not much chance you'll find what you need (and this is barring any other counterspells they are almost sure to have). What's worse is that if they have a Wasteland, you're completely dead in the water (if you weren't already from the Leyline). I almost think you'd be better off with just a standard Forest, simply so it can't be easily hated out.
Is it really worth it to SB these though, when there's relevant hate you might need against other decks? Leyline of the Void isn't a super-common SB card. I'm of the opinion that if they get it out, you're pretty hosed and unless you come up with a god hand that has both Reverent Silence and the Dryad Arbor, there's not much chance you'll find what you need (and this is barring any other counterspells they are almost sure to have). What's worse is that if they have a Wasteland, you're completely dead in the water (if you weren't already from the Leyline). I almost think you'd be better off with just a standard Forest, simply so it can't be easily hated out.
Yeah, if they know you're manaless and have the hate, they'll probably aggressively mull into it. I was thinking more heavily on the SB side, that you might actually SB forests as well as 4 Nature's Claim and 4 Reverent Silence. Dunno though, still seems like a rather large gambit in a format full of decks not playing a lot of hate against Dredge (particularly since Hive Mind is now the new hotness).
How is the affinity MU? Should we be considering Chalice of the Void in SB? Is there room for it/is it worth it? From my experience, Affinity is a rough match because they can just sac a memnite/thopter to ravager to ditch our bridges before we get to use them and they don't lose a beat. Does Chancellor of the Annex do the job well enough?
Also, Angel of Despair vs. Woodfall Primus? Primus seems like the way to go to me, with persist and all. How often do you find yourself using Angel of Despair to remove a creature threat? All I can really think of is a Blazing Archon or Iona, Shield of Emeria (and even then, how can we cast dread return?). We can usually race through goyf and the like.
Woodfall Primus is really just a beast. Gets rid of so many threats and can do it really quickly too. Affinity is a tough match-up, because they aren't tempo or combo. My suggestion is to largely beat them at their own game, which is to attempt to have better aggro than they do (this is a difficult prospect, particularly since they have fliers, and they REALLY like being on the play). Hurt their hand if possible, letting them drop Etched Champions or Tezzeret can spell disaster (while Thoughtcast is always a threat, it may not be something you can really control). Contagion helps a lot here (target Signal Pests/Memnites). If you get a Blazing Archon, congratulations! You've probably won the game (aggressively Therapy their hand of any Dispatches they may have).
Also, if you get any Nether Shadow/Ichorids at all, you should have no problem playing Dread Return (Affinity doesn't generally play counter).
Here are a few thoughts I've been having on manaless dredge since the SCG win:
Bridge from Below
Since manaless has more ways than regular dredge of getting creatures back from the graveyard (more Ichorid food, Bloodghast, Nether Shadow) having a Bridge from Below broken by the death of an opponent's creature feels like less of a big deal than regular dredge. This is quite good since opponents will often sacrifice resources to get rid of a Bridge, and get overrun by GY creatures anyway.
Bloodghast package
The bloodghast package raises the interesting option of 4 Salvage/4 Bloodghast and 0 Shambling Shell in the deck, as in FunkyMo's list (which sort of means they only take up 4 slots in the deck.) I think it's still to be determined how worthwhile bloodghasts are.
Baubles and Gitaxian Probe
Playing a bauble means you can't discard that turn which can be a pain in the early game where you might only have drawn 1 dredger. Gitaxian Probe can be countered (Daze/Misstep/FoW) which means you don't get to draw the card.
It's clear from Rausch's success that you don't need Baubles or Probes, but the question of what is best is still open and metagame dependent. I think I'd been assuming 8 Baubles + probe was probably best but I'm not sure now.
Playing Probe main and siding it out versus decks likely to counter it is always an option.
Phantasmagorian
Since putting cards in the graveyard is basically dredge's way of drawing cards, the first Phantasmagorian you get is like drawing 3-6 cards. I think if you aren't playing baubles/probe for more drawing then 4 Phantasmagorian is best.
I usually read that narcomoeba x 4 is a must in any dredge built, but in manaless dredge I think, that thing is not completely true.
I think right now, that 4 x narco is too much, because narco is the only one card that is a completely death card is it is in your opening 8 cards (counting the first draw for DDD). And playing 4 of them, that happens quiet frequently.
That's, why I think I will change -1 narco, +1 nether shadow in FunkyMo's decklist.
4 Nether Shadow and 4 Narcomoeba are probably best, since it's going to be one of the easiest ways to combo out (other than Bridge From Below). It's also a free body that can be sac'ed to Bridge.
I usually read that narcomoeba x 4 is a must in any dredge built, but in manaless dredge I think, that thing is not completely true.
I think right now, that 4 x narco is too much, because narco is the only one card that is a completely death card is it is in your opening 8 cards (counting the first draw for DDD). And playing 4 of them, that happens quiet frequently.
That's, why I think I will change -1 narco, +1 nether shadow in FunkyMo's decklist.
That's an interesting idea, but I think the deck should run as many Narcomoeba as it can support, as the little guy is instrumental in interacting on Turn 2 as well as getting the fastest/best Dread Returns. Also, he flies. This is sweet in Legacy.
I know it seems i little bit risky in the format of swords to plowshares, but if lots of times dread return a big troll it's enough thanks to a previous therapy, it could be work for the demon too. It's a two turns clock, and can be played from hand (quiet easely in a the bloodghast version). On the other hand, you can put zombie tokens if your opponent counter it out.
Why would we sac 3 creatures to a single body that can't even attack that turn when we can sac 3 creatures to dread return a sphinx to combo out that turn?
Why would we sac 3 creatures to a single body that can't even attack that turn when we can sac 3 creatures to dread return a sphinx to combo out that turn?
Because u don't have always the dread return, or the target of the DR to combo. This guy is IN ADDITION of the dread return to have more threats and more ways to generate zombie tokens also.
The extra discard could well be that Dakmor Salvage you just dredged. Keep it in hand, instead, and you don't need extra Dread Returns. Obviously this is more relevant if you're planning on aggressively using your million Phantasmagorians.
If we are using our Phantasmagorians aggressively, won't we most likely have one in our hand at all times? That way we can discard that, plus two dredgers, and keep the Dakmor Salvage we just dredged.
Because u don't have always the dread return, or the target of the DR to combo. This guy is IN ADDITION of the dread return to have more threats and more ways to generate zombie tokens also.
Okay, fair enough. A wise soul once told me, "it's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selection." So then, what do you suggest it replaces? (This is a rhetorical question because I think it is so clearly not better than what we have already). It does not help us dredge more, which is exactly what we would need to do in the situation you are proposing it would be useful. If we have no dread returns and no targets, then how would casting this guy help us get what we need?
At the moment its only an idea. I don't test it. But now comes to my mind as a posible side plan against the hate, because it can be casted from hand. With a tormods or relic in play u don't want to dread returned a sphinx, u don't have to overcommit. It likely to have an ichorid, nether shadow, and a bloodghast in your grave and your opponent decide not to crack the tormod's because this scenario is not scary enought. Then you sac your 3 guys... surprise! 9/9 flying, trample. Two turns clock.
Anyway, only a possibility, as a mentioned before, I don't test it yet.
Only ask for a general opinion as a new possibility in a manaless dredge. There are lots of versions of this deck: 8 baubles, gigapede, no gigapede, bloodghast, no bloodghast, 4 shinx, no sphinx. I think it would be easy to find 3 slots.
Thanks for the report!
Was the other Manaless player 2-1 when you faced off? If he was, that implies the Manaless record in the daily was 5-3 which is not absurd but not bad either.
My main gripe against Bloodghast is that he takes up so much deck-space when you bring Dakmor Salvage along to reanimate him. Obviously, if you're planning on starting with a land in hand a reasonable amount of the time anyway you can cut back to ~1 Salvage and benefit.
I don't like the fetch plan, but given the relatively high profile of Manaless at the moment (and the Mana Dredge deck that slipped into the top 8 alongside it) Leyline might be so prevalent as to justify it.
I definitely think the short-term plan of boarding Leyline of the Void is sweet for every deck right now, but Bojuka Bog is a much better plan if they can deal with Leyline eventually. (Therefore once the hubbub dies down I'd switch over to Bogs in the board)
There's also the super-janky Leyline of the Void + Leyline of Singularity plan, although that's at least 2 cards out of our hand... also you have to reconfigure the deck (or at least sideboard) to less frequently put out multiple creatures of the same name.
Looking at it, it should still function just fine on the pure DDD plan.
Another thought occurs to me: If we want to get really next-level against Tendrils, we can assume they'll draw and put us on the play. This opens up T1 Chalice of the Void as an option in the sideboard. Lion's Eye Diamond might just be better in that situation, though.
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I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Through the magic of replays, I can tell you even more than his being 2-1 when we faced off:
EDIT: The deck list is now available. The main is Rausch's list, -1 Shambling Shell -3 Gigapede +4 Urza's Bauble:
4 Street Wraith
4 Urza's Bauble
Discard Outlets
4 Phantasmagorian
Beaters
4 Bloodghast
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
Dread Return Targets
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Land
3 Dakmor Salvage
1 Ancestor's Chosen
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Flame-kin Zealot
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 River Kelpie
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
Round 1, he lost 0-2 to NO RUG's Tarmogoyf beats, with an appearance by Umezawa's Jitte in game 2 (Jitte is so annoying).
Round 2, he won 2-1 against Zoo. In game 2, his opponent opted not to make a block that would exile his Bridges, even though he had Dread Return covered with Gaddock Teeg and a Tarmogoyf to block Ichorid. Game 3, his opponent opted to shock him with his Grim Lavamancer rather than exile his Bridges, again with Teeg in play, which led a zombie apocalypse.
Round 3, he won 2-0 against what I can only assume was NO RUG. In game 1, a zombie army bashed its way through 2 6/7 Tarmogoyfs. In game 3, he faced a turn 1 Relic, discarding Narcomoebas until he found a Street Wraith. His opponent had a super slow draw, plopping down a Tarmogoyf on turn 4. He also used his Relic very conservatively, opting to pop it when the board was Noble Hierarch to 4 zombie tokens. Of course, our hero was able to discard the next turn and laid down some more beats.
I also noticed that he never stacked his Phantasmagorian activations, even in game 1. Not knowing his hand, I don't know how much this hurt him.
Can you elaborate on this some more? The way I see it, Dakmor Salvage takes the place of Shambling Shell. By themselves, both are do-nothings other than being bad dredgers. Is Dredge 3 that much better than Dredge 2, and does being Ichorid food matter that much?
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(Way too snarky, but I just couldn't resist... sorry)
The main value of the Dredge 3 cards, in my opinion, is that they help you reach a critical mass of Dredgers to ensure that you basically always find your actually-worthwhile dredgers in a timely manner. Typically, it takes me two turns of Dredge 3 to find a better dredger. This means 6 cards on average, which means 3 turns with a Dredge 2, hence the Time Walk comment. Additionally, more Shambling Shell help feed Ichorid (not a big deal, in this deck) and help trigger Nether Shadow without relying as heavily on Phantasmagorian, which I think is a little bit important.
The main value is definitely increasing consistency/speed by having "Dredge 3" instead of "Dredge 2", as you dig 1 and a half times as fast. To put it differently, there's very little difference in whether the deck is functioning at Dredge 5 or Dredge 6, but the difference between Dredge 2 and Dredge 3 is the difference (in terms of cards you see) between having a Howling Mine sitting around and casting Ancestral Recall every turn. To put it even more differently, Dredge 2 is merely okay, while Dredge 3 lets us dig through the deck looking for a dredger at precisely the same rate as Bazaar of Baghdad. We spend more deck space in Legacy doing that than they do in Vintage, but we also have a much slower and less hateful format.
Obviously we can build the deck however we'd like, but it deserves mention that Rausch ran Dakmor Salvage in addition to Shambling Shell, which obviously means cutting something else.
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I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
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Stop making sense. I suppose my illogical feeling of Shambling Shell has always been "Man, this is the absolute worst. He's so slow and never finds a dredger the first time around." I've always thought of it as a threshold, like Shambling Shell = bad and Dakmor Salvage = bad, whereas Golgari Thug = fine, Stinkweed Imp = good, and Golgari Grave-Troll = the nuts.
Unfortunately, a deck running Bloodghast, if it uses solely Dakmore Salvage, is probably going to need 3-4 so that you can reliably and repeatedly return Bloodghasts.
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paranoidthorough 40/60-card player. Check it out!4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Dakmor Salvage
Card Draw
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
Discard
4 Phantasmagorian
Beaters
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bloodghast
3 Nether Shadow
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
Dread Return Targets
4 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Angel of Despair
1 Blazing Archon
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Chancellor of the Annex
So I added Leyline of the Void to the sideboard, and I'm batting a thousand with the deck in the 2-man queues (1 for 1, oh yeah!). I might have had a bit of help from my opponent (odd version of Reanimator) game 3, but Leyline of the Void definitely carried its weight that game even when I was dredging twice per turn. And I thought getting Cliqued was awesome! Come to think of it, this is somehow actually better than when Rausch's opponent (Runeflare Trap) played a Howling Mine.
EDIT:
Now 5-0. Man, late night 2-man queues are quite the jankfest, but I certainly can't complain about $2 packs. The only "real" deck I played against was Affinity, which I think I turn 3'd both games. Also of note, Leyline of Sanctity performed admirably in game 3 against a very slow blue 12-post deck that could fetch up Bojuka Bogs, copy them, and tutor for Relics.
Divide & Conquer is an Android app that completely shuffles your real deck of cards. It's great for unwieldy decks (Battle of Wits, Commander, etc.) and the
paranoidthorough 40/60-card player. Check it out!Chalice of the Void can potentially cut them off of enough artifact mana to earn its turns back (i.e. they can't necessarily just go off through it), which is something that Leyline of Sanctity basically never does. An interesting anti-combo suggestion I've seen elsewhere is Mental Misstep, presumably to counter Dark Ritual. The nice thing about this is that the spell is pretty reasonable generally, and could be included to nab Relic of Progenitus or some other 1-drop against the relevant decks.
Sphinx of Lost Truths > Deep Analysis, so I'd only go with the Sun Titan plan if you're running LED anyway and you're running some other CMC 3 or less permanents that benefit from Sun Titan's effect.
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I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Dakmor Salvage
Card Draw
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
Discard
4 Phantasmagorian
Beaters
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bloodghast
3 Nether Shadow
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy:D
4 Bridge from Below
Dread Return Targets
4 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Angel of Despair
1 Blazing Archon
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Chancellor of the Annex
I'm in the Legacy Premier Event right now, and I figured I would keep a running tally of the decks I face, rather than try to remember what happened after the event.
Round 1 vs. Hive Mind (W 2-0)
Game 1, on turn 3 I therapied a Show and Tell out of his hand, which is good because he also had a grip of Hive Mind and 3 pacts. Next turn I was able to go off.
Game 2, his Leyline of Sanctity was kind of annoying, but luckily he Showed and Told me into a turn 3 combo.
Round 2 vs. UW Stoneforge (W 2-0)
Game 1, I combo'd out turn 3.
Game 2, I started to combo out turn 4, but my opponent bounced his Batterskull in response to the Bridge triggers created from Dread Returning a Flame-kin Zealot, neutering my attack (I always forget they can do that :cool2:). Still, I was able to strip the Batterskull from his hand and get him down to 2 life from Sphinx beats, leading him to concede on his turn. Of note, I didn't see any graveyard hate.
Round 3 vs. NO Bant (L 1-2)
Game 1, I turn 3'd him, but could've survived to turn 4 if needed.
Games 2 and 3, I was on the business end of a Leyline of the Void.
Round 4 vs. UW Stoneforge (W 2-0)
Game 1, turn 3 combo through a Batterskull. No time for bouncing shenanigans this time.
Game 2, I was ecstatic to find dredge a Cabal Therapy and Narcomoeba to get the pesky Batterskull in his hand. But Gitaxian Probe showed me the way was clear and, with some help from Dakmor Salvage into Bloodghast, fueled the turn 2 kill :D. I didn't see any graveyard hate.
Round 5 vs. Hive Mind (W 2-0)
Game 1 was super awkward for both of us. He had enough mana acceleration to rawdog a Hive Mind, but couldn't find the namesake card. I got a bit greedy with Phantasmagorian, dumping Golgari Grave-Troll and some stuff. The Troll didn't find me any dredgers, but somehow Nether Shadow, Ichorid, Bloodghast, and zombie beats killed him on turn 4.
Game 2, he dropped double Leyline of Sanctity, which didn't bother me too much considering I couldn't find a Cabal Therapy anyway. I had an uncommon dredge into 4 Bridges, so I went for the Dread Return rather than bash since, even if it got countered, I would kill him next turn. Even though I was able to dredge 16 cards, I couldn't find the second Dread Return to continue. It was a moot point because he didn't find the combo and he conceded before I swung for the win on turn 4. I didn't see any graveyard hate.
Round 6 vs. NO Bant (W 2-0)
Game 1, I got the absolute nuts of Golgari Grave-Troll, double Street Wraith, and double Gitaxian Probe for the turn 2 blowout.
Game 2, he mulled to 5 and put on some pressure with Knight of the Reliquary while I was faltering with small dredgers. The Knight terrified me because he could A) sacrifice his Dryad Arbor at will and B) possibly fetch up a Bojuka Bog. Instead, he Crypted me and always attacked with the Knight, leaving me free to combo out at 1 life.
Top 8
Quarterfinals vs. Hive Mind (Round 1 Opponent) (W 2-0)
Game 1, he scares me with Show and Tell but it only produces an Emrakul which I combo through. Scarily enough, when I saw his hand, he had Slaughter Pact and Hive Mind in hand. What's even scarier is I put in a Narcomoeba off the Show and Tell. *shudder*
Game 2, I had the nuts again with Golgari Grave-Troll and double Street Wraith for the turn 2 combo win.
Semifinals vs. NO Bant (Round 3 Opponent) (L 1-2)
Game 1, I combo'd him on turn 4 under little pressure. I think I could've turn 3'd but he had Mental Misstep and double Force of Will.
Game 2, his opener had Leyline of the Void. Game 3, he mulled to 5 or 6 and found the dastardly enchantment again.
EDIT:
The decklists and standings are up now: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/2608930
Divide & Conquer is an Android app that completely shuffles your real deck of cards. It's great for unwieldy decks (Battle of Wits, Commander, etc.) and the
paranoidthorough 40/60-card player. Check it out!NeoFinnity... A Control Affinity Primer
How many players were there altogether?
Was there anything you particularly liked or disliked about the deck?
You got a surprising number of Turn 2 kills... I think I'm going to have to test your list again, as it seems faster than my testing indicated.
I think bouncing Batterskull is secretly a terrible play against us, because it kills Bridge from Below while ensuring that we don't need it. It's better than Howling Mine, for sure, but spending 3 turns (with Stoneforge Mystic) to remove our bridges and deal 1 point of damage (or even 5) is hardly game-breaking (much less game-winning, as you saw).
How was your sideboard? I don't really see any mentions of it, although right now it's probably wrong not to run Leyline of the Void unless you're running a really fast combo deck... which we sort-of are. Still, it's got to be a solid choice right now. Were there a lot of other graveyard decks that you just didn't happen to hit, or was LotV not great for this tournament? (Edit: It looks like an overwhelmingly blue field, which obviously makes your sideboard fairly irrelevant as you just win; looking at it again, there was literally a playset of hate in the tournament that was responsible for every one of your game losses)
Leyline of Sanctity seems a little weak... were you worried about Tormod's Crypt? (I think I like Mental Misstep a lot more where you'd want Leyline, although obvious there are a few relevant cards that can't be Misstepped, such as Crypt).
Also, Congrats! 5-1 in the Swiss is pretty awesome!
Edit: Did you mulligan at all? Did you have any questionable keeps in order not to mulligan?
Edit 2: I think from your results it looks like we could see a stack-based, blue-dominated metagame continue to exist, only with 11-card sideboards instead of 15 (due to Leyline of the Void).
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I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
(EDIT: I think there were about 33 players.)
I still haven't put my finger on what exactly it is, but the deck feels clunky. Stuff like opening hands of only Dakmor Salvage and not having enough fodder for Ichorid, at least in the sense that I was reluctant to eat Bloodghasts, contribute to that feeling. However, I was always ecstatic to see a Dakmor Salvage in my opener, as long as it was with a larger dredger. And I think that's part of the puzzle - Dakmor Salvage, even being the crappiest of dredgers, is one of the rare cards that has utility in your graveyard and in your opening hand.
I'm definitely glad to see that this list held its own against fair decks, even if it was by comboing most of the time.
I think with the matchups I faced, any Manaless Dredge list could cruise through them, at least the non-Hive Mind decks. I've never played an 8-bauble list against Hive Mind, so I don't know how it would fare, but I got fairly lucky against them, too. Also, graveyard hate was very, very light barring the guy with Leyline of the Voids. I'm pretty sure the worst I saw was Tormod's Crypt. So I really didn't get a sense of how well this list does against moderate hate, but I would imagine it's worse than a bauble list.
To be fair, if I recall the hands correctly, I think most Manaless lists could've gone turn 2 with double-to-quad cantrip starts, although my list is definitely better at taking advantage of busted openers.
Yeah, the sideboard might as well have been 15x Squire. I think the only sideboard move I made every match was -2 Phantasmagorian +1 Blazing Archon +1 Angel of Despair in anticipation of not needing a Phantasmagorian in my opener. I don't remember what I did against Hive Mind, but Archon and Angel are certainly live against Show and Tell into Emrakul. Then again, that can be a fast matchup, so I might've left in the Phantasmagorians. I can't remember :rolleyes:. Either way, neither of those guys ever made it to the battlefield, although I suppose the times I faced down an Emrakul they would've been useful had I not been able to combo that turn.
EDIT:
Re: Leyline of the Void
I threw these in, probably a bit irrationally, after losing to a Manaless Dredge player with Leylines, even though I clearly had the edge otherwise by being combo-oriented. My argument would be that A) I figured Manaless Dredge would show up a lot more because it's cheap and it won, and B) it helps against other troublesome unfair decks, like Reanimator, Cephalid Breakfast, and Mana Dredge.
What, you've already forgotten about my (irrational?*) fear of Storm decks? While I intended this list to maybe be able to hang with Storm, it's still obviously a godawful matchup.
I do like the idea of Mental Misstep in the sideboard, but I don't think it's so great by itself against Storm. But with Leyline to protect it, and with Mental Misstep to protect Leyline, oh yeah. I'll definitely think about it.
* Not completely irrational. I always see JWestLake at the top of the dailies, and he's always packing Ad Nauseams. In fact, I narrowly missed him in the last round (thankfully, I was paired up) and in the quarterfinals.
I don't think I mulliganned at all in this tournament, but I may have once. Either way, all of the hands I kept had at least one dredger in them, and I never mulliganned a hand with a dredger in it. But some of those Dakmor Salvage hands I wish I could've gotten a do-over on.
Divide & Conquer is an Android app that completely shuffles your real deck of cards. It's great for unwieldy decks (Battle of Wits, Commander, etc.) and the
paranoidthorough 40/60-card player. Check it out!Is it really worth it to SB these though, when there's relevant hate you might need against other decks? Leyline of the Void isn't a super-common SB card. I'm of the opinion that if they get it out, you're pretty hosed and unless you come up with a god hand that has both Reverent Silence and the Dryad Arbor, there's not much chance you'll find what you need (and this is barring any other counterspells they are almost sure to have). What's worse is that if they have a Wasteland, you're completely dead in the water (if you weren't already from the Leyline). I almost think you'd be better off with just a standard Forest, simply so it can't be easily hated out.
If you want to fight Leyline of the Void in manaless, include 4-6 fetchlands in the Main deck, alongside 2-4 Dryad Arbor. Then you sideboard 1 Forest, 4 Nature's Claim, 4 Reverent Silence. If you need to use Nature's Claim, you fetch the forest instead of an Arbor.
All that said, given the current low level of Leyline of the Void floating around, it's probably better to just ignore it and take your losses.
Edit: Added FunkyMo's Premier Event list to the primer because the GWP column should never read 0.8462.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Also, Angel of Despair vs. Woodfall Primus? Primus seems like the way to go to me, with persist and all. How often do you find yourself using Angel of Despair to remove a creature threat? All I can really think of is a Blazing Archon or Iona, Shield of Emeria (and even then, how can we cast dread return?). We can usually race through goyf and the like.
LEGACY:
BURGAd Nauseum TendrilsGRUB
MODERN:
RWGBurnGWR
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR
UWBrago, King EternalUW
Also, if you get any Nether Shadow/Ichorids at all, you should have no problem playing Dread Return (Affinity doesn't generally play counter).
Bridge from Below
Since manaless has more ways than regular dredge of getting creatures back from the graveyard (more Ichorid food, Bloodghast, Nether Shadow) having a Bridge from Below broken by the death of an opponent's creature feels like less of a big deal than regular dredge. This is quite good since opponents will often sacrifice resources to get rid of a Bridge, and get overrun by GY creatures anyway.
Bloodghast package
The bloodghast package raises the interesting option of 4 Salvage/4 Bloodghast and 0 Shambling Shell in the deck, as in FunkyMo's list (which sort of means they only take up 4 slots in the deck.) I think it's still to be determined how worthwhile bloodghasts are.
Baubles and Gitaxian Probe
Playing a bauble means you can't discard that turn which can be a pain in the early game where you might only have drawn 1 dredger. Gitaxian Probe can be countered (Daze/Misstep/FoW) which means you don't get to draw the card.
It's clear from Rausch's success that you don't need Baubles or Probes, but the question of what is best is still open and metagame dependent. I think I'd been assuming 8 Baubles + probe was probably best but I'm not sure now.
Playing Probe main and siding it out versus decks likely to counter it is always an option.
Phantasmagorian
Since putting cards in the graveyard is basically dredge's way of drawing cards, the first Phantasmagorian you get is like drawing 3-6 cards. I think if you aren't playing baubles/probe for more drawing then 4 Phantasmagorian is best.
I think right now, that 4 x narco is too much, because narco is the only one card that is a completely death card is it is in your opening 8 cards (counting the first draw for DDD). And playing 4 of them, that happens quiet frequently.
That's, why I think I will change -1 narco, +1 nether shadow in FunkyMo's decklist.
That's an interesting idea, but I think the deck should run as many Narcomoeba as it can support, as the little guy is instrumental in interacting on Turn 2 as well as getting the fastest/best Dread Returns. Also, he flies. This is sweet in Legacy.
Edit:
New possible plan for the anti-Leyline of the Void sideboard, if you really want to do that.
Maindeck:
Sideboard:
Obviously, this has the advantage of typically using 1 fewer card from your hand, thereby allowing you to discard a turn sooner.
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I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
I know it seems i little bit risky in the format of swords to plowshares, but if lots of times dread return a big troll it's enough thanks to a previous therapy, it could be work for the demon too. It's a two turns clock, and can be played from hand (quiet easely in a the bloodghast version). On the other hand, you can put zombie tokens if your opponent counter it out.
Why would we sac 3 creatures to a single body that can't even attack that turn when we can sac 3 creatures to dread return a sphinx to combo out that turn?
LEGACY:
BURGAd Nauseum TendrilsGRUB
MODERN:
RWGBurnGWR
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR
UWBrago, King EternalUW
Because u don't have always the dread return, or the target of the DR to combo. This guy is IN ADDITION of the dread return to have more threats and more ways to generate zombie tokens also.
If we are using our Phantasmagorians aggressively, won't we most likely have one in our hand at all times? That way we can discard that, plus two dredgers, and keep the Dakmor Salvage we just dredged.
Okay, fair enough. A wise soul once told me, "it's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selection." So then, what do you suggest it replaces? (This is a rhetorical question because I think it is so clearly not better than what we have already). It does not help us dredge more, which is exactly what we would need to do in the situation you are proposing it would be useful. If we have no dread returns and no targets, then how would casting this guy help us get what we need?
LEGACY:
BURGAd Nauseum TendrilsGRUB
MODERN:
RWGBurnGWR
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR
UWBrago, King EternalUW
Anyway, only a possibility, as a mentioned before, I don't test it yet.
Only ask for a general opinion as a new possibility in a manaless dredge. There are lots of versions of this deck: 8 baubles, gigapede, no gigapede, bloodghast, no bloodghast, 4 shinx, no sphinx. I think it would be easy to find 3 slots.