Are there any viable routes to enchantment destruction by removing cards in your hand from the game, or is the problem that they're in green (though if it is, Gigapede could be the answer)?
Also, I understand the Flame-Kin Zealot combo, but why not a more tempo-based approach such as with Nicholas's deck?
Abolish might have some merit... hm. Then again, any of these answers are likely to be Force'd, so it's basically just a gambit at best.
Abolish seems terrible, in my estimation. The Leyline of Singularity plan does get around counters, but the downside is it takes a million slots and a million cards from your opening hand and it sucks.
I think that Leyline of the Void just isn't common enough right now to be worth having a plan against. 2-3 Playsets in the Top 16 means Manaless probably isn't going to be winning any events, but it also is low enough to let Manaless hit that Top 16 to begin with (imo).
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The transformational plan is: -4 Narcomoeba, -4 Bridge from Below, -1 River Kelpie, -1 Flame-Kin Zealot, -3 Golgari Grave-Troll, -2 Phantasmagorian, +1 Entire Sideboard
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Your mainboard is pretty interesting. So you chose Bloodghast over Nether Shadow (removing Shambling Shells for Salvages in the process) and without Nether Shadow you reduced Taz to 2. I'm not quite sure how I like that, for Taz-Shadow has always been a huge consistency factor in my manaless lists. Its ability to block is sometimes huge.
I kind of like the 8 Bauble (16 cycle) thing, it's just that I usually don't find the room for all of them in my builds.
I'm not sure about the sb though. Do you really think that works? I haven't goldfished this list after sbing yet, but the mathematician in me tells me that you'll just about never have the combo together. You need two of your 11 black source Lands plus Hexmage plus Dark Depths. 7 of those Lands ETB tapped. You can get Wastelanded (which was one of the main reasons to even use manaless: not being wastelandable). Your Hexmage can get countered (yet the second reason we want to run manaless: counterspells are dead). I'm sure your opponents won't board out all Wastelands and Counters after game 1. One Swords to PS killy you entirely. And most importantly: over 40 cards of your deck are dead if you go the Dark Depths route. I would at least not dilute the usual game plan as much by sideboarding and try to maintain the chance to win the usual way. So maybe: -4 Bloodghast, -1 Ichorid, -1 River Kelpie, -2 Dread Return, -7 Baubles.
This definitely does work post sideboard. I usually mulligan for one of the two combo pieces and try to cantrip into the other. Based on 10 or so games, it usually puts up a win somewhere in the turn 3-6 range, but it can definitely win as early as turn 2 (well, get the 20/20 that early). Additionally, with the influx of land, you can aggro them out.
You can dredge them out even after sideboarding. You lose Bridge and Narcomoeba, but it's entirely possible to just beat them to death with Ichorid and Bloodghast.
The combo doesn't necessarily require 4 cards, as Urborg turns Dark Depths into a black source.
As to the number of cards that are dead after sideboarding, I'd put it somewhere in the 5-10 range. Ichorid is a 4-mana Lightning Bolt, and Golgari Grave-Troll I would consider dead, but Golgari Thug and Dread Return can help recurse Vampire Hexmage (so if you have Dark Depths in your opening hand you can actually dredge for black mana and for the Hexmage, if you want; this also shuts down countermagic fairly well, albeit slowly). All those cantrips help filter through the deck and find the combo.
Regarding countermagic: They're definitely not going to keep Spell Snare in unless they see our sideboard (say, via Top 8 lists) which for many decks means Daze and/or Force of Will are the only relevant cards in the deck.
To clarify: To recurse Vampire Hexmage from the graveyard with Golgari Thug, you dredge the Thug, then cast it, then when it resolves you maintain priority and flashback a Cabal Therapy. Put Hexmage on top and draw it next turn. If they have counters, you can do this repeatedly.
As to Wasteland: Unless it looks like we're going to successfully aggro them out, and we have Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, we'd never play out Dark Depths until we can activate it. Dakmor Salvage is nigh-immune to Wasteland, and our opponent's hand should be pretty terrible if they got a Leyline of the Void (where them doing so game 3 is the main reason to run this sideboard at all).
As to the maindeck: I wanted 16 cantrips to maximize combo consistency post-board, and 4 Dakmor Salvage for the same reason. That doesn't leave room for the full playset of TazandDread Return targets. Nonetheless, I think the maindeck plays just fine.
Edit: I think I want to cut a Dread Return or two from the maindeck for Darkblast. What do you guys think?
Went to a tournament today, using the list I recommended in the primer except -4 Mindbreak Trap in the sideboard, +4 Leyline of Sanctity.
Round 1:
L 0-2 versus Bant (?)
Game 1 I dredged through 30-40 cards but couldn't find any creatures. I could have started discarding my 2 Nether Shadow from hand at EOT, but I wasn't paying attention (too used to playing Modern) and simply forgot. Game 2 I had a much more reasonable series of dredges and discarded with Phantasmagorian against an active Knight of the Reliquary. He responded by Bojuka Bogging my graveyard, but I had a few zombie tokens. We played draw-go for a few turns while I chumped his Knight, and he killed me right as I was getting things together. Absent my misplay, I think I definitely would have won.
Round 2:
W 2-0 versus Hive Mind
Games 1 and 2 I shred his hand as I combo him out and kill him before he can do anything but cantrip and counter Cabal Therapys.
Round 3:
W 2-1 versus UWr (?) Control
Game 1 I crushed, fairly straightforward.
Game 2 He landed a Peacekeeper and due to my forgetting that I sideboarded out a Dread Return I killed myself via mill (I combo'ed down to zero cards in library), despite zero pressure. He had a semi-relevant Moat in hand when the game ended.
Game 3 I played more conservatively and used Realm Razer to lock him out(killing Peacekeeper), and a horde of tokens and some Ichorid to lethal him exactly. He had Moat but could never play it due to Peacekeeper's upkeep cost.
Round 4:
W 2-0 versus Stasis Control Orb of Dreams was his only relevant play Game 1, so I killed him with a turn or two of delay.
Game 2 he eventually landed Stasis but I managed to kill him with Ichorid, unintentionally playing around Echoing Truth by not bringing back more-than-lethal Ichorids.
After playing some more games, I think the main-deck beats almost everything, especially if you include Darkblast, and if it does you can just sideboard an anti-Leyline of the Void plan and win those matches too. I'm much more intent on the Vampire Hexmage plan than I was before.
Regarding the sideboard, it seemed like none of it mattered at all, except Realm Razer and possibly Child of Alara.
Next time use the search feature to find the deck you're using. Warning issued.
Hi guys ! im currently building a deck that i saw in Star City Games tournament Cincinnati.
The deck is Manaless Dredge.
The PROBLEM is that i dont understand why phantasmagorian is suppose to be a must in this deck and what is the super combo he's suppose to do...
Can you explain me the mechanic around it plz.
Phantasmagorian = 3 free dredgers or anything you want out of your hand when he hits the grave.
Street wraith lets you dredge off the draw. so he basically gives 1 free dredge activation (or a 2 life dredge activation)
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And all that the Lorax left here in this mess
was a small pile of rocks, with one word...
UNLESS.
Whatever that meant, well, I just couldn't guess.
thanks to The Highlight Studios for the amazing avatar
ok so tell me if i'm ok:
Here is the description of Phantasmagorian.
« When you play(discard it to put it in the graveyard?) Phantasmagorian, any player(me) may discard three cards (dredgers if possible). If a player does (discard 3 card), counter Phantasmagorian (???).
Discard three cards: Return Phantasmagorian from your graveyard to your hand.» (repeat the combo??)
Street Wraith: how can you dredge with this card? you use a dread return? it come in play, after that, you pay 2 life --» you discard a dredger and draw a card?
You don't seem to understand how this deck works. It works by Dredging cards into the Graveyard, and cannot function in any other way. Phantasmagorian is Discard/Dredged into the Graveyard, allowing you to abuse it's second ability. Dread Return does not cast it, so it's first ability will never come up.
Street Wraith has the ability "Cycle". If you bother to read the reminder text, it is clear that the ability can only be activated from the hand.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
I took a deck pretty close to the original manaless build to a small (six person) tournament the other night. It was brutal.
Match 1: vs UW Control
Game 1: I explode on turn 3 and bad things happen to him.
Game 2: He leads Tundra in to Relic of Progenitus.
Game 3: He leads Island in to Relic, turn two he drops a second Relic.
0-1
Match 2: vs Zoo
Game 1: He beats in with Goyfs as I fail to find Dredgers anywhere.
Game 2: He leads turn 1 Relic of Progenitus in to turn two Relic of Progenitus.
0-2
Match 3: vs Suicide Black
Game 1: He leads off with Dark Ritual in to Jailer.
Game 2: He leads off with the same.
0-3
Match 4: vs Sligh
Game 1: I get crushed by damage on turn 4 before I was able to go off.
Game 2: I draw a 3 Street Wraith hand and think this is the wrong deck for that. But, when I swing 9 Zombies and a Zealot on turn 3 I figure that six life was worth it.
Game 3: He draws the nuts and has me burned out on turn 3.
0-4
Match 5: vs Donate Illusions
Both games I just played with myself after a turn four Iona lands naming blue against a mono blue deck.
I took a deck pretty close to the original manaless build to a small (six person) tournament the other night. It was brutal.
Match 1: vs UW Control
Game 1: I explode on turn 3 and bad things happen to him.
Game 2: He leads Tundra in to Relic of Progenitus.
Game 3: He leads Island in to Relic, turn two he drops a second Relic.
0-1
Match 2: vs Zoo
Game 1: He beats in with Goyfs as I fail to find Dredgers anywhere.
Game 2: He leads turn 1 Relic of Progenitus in to turn two Relic of Progenitus.
0-2
Match 3: vs Suicide Black
Game 1: He leads off with Dark Ritual in to Jailer.
Game 2: He leads off with the same.
0-3
Match 4: vs Sligh
Game 1: I get crushed by damage on turn 4 before I was able to go off.
Game 2: I draw a 3 Street Wraith hand and think this is the wrong deck for that. But, when I swing 9 Zombies and a Zealot on turn 3 I figure that six life was worth it.
Game 3: He draws the nuts and has me burned out on turn 3.
0-4
Match 5: vs Donate Illusions
Both games I just played with myself after a turn four Iona lands naming blue against a mono blue deck.
1-4
I would cautiously advise against playing graveyard-based decks in your metagame.
I'm pretty sold on the Vampire Hexmage plan. It is somewhat irksome that Sphinxes don't fit into that build but at least this can be considered when entering a metagame with lots of Leyline.
I do have some suggestions for your transformational list, ajfirecracker.
I think that having a 3rd Taz in game 1 is more important than having a 16th cantrip in game 3. I agree wholeheartedly about Darkblast but I think 1 is enough and cutting a Thug for it seems reasonable. With that change in hand I find myself drawn back to Angel of Despair over the Primus to maintain possible Ichorid food. Finally without the explosive finishes provided by Sphinx and FKZ you are looking for Iona as quickly as possible, so I'd strongly lean towards fitting in River Kelpie.
Are you very sold on Barren Moor as an extra cantrip post-board? I was considering Undiscovered Paradise instead.
I'm thinking of cutting an Ichorid for a Nether Shadow, as I'm not sure if I can really support 4 Ichorid. That said, Ichy is often a full turn faster, always bigger, and sacrifices himself. All of this is obviously awesome.
Barren Moor is approximately infinitely better than Undiscovered Paradise. The plan post-board is to play multiple lands which produce only black mana, and kill them. Additionally, Undiscovered Paradise blanks the best way to play through reactive cards when you have to go for it with Vampire Hexmage. Namely, cast Hexmage and when it resolves play Dark Depths. Because we get priority after our spells resolve, and playing a land doesn't use the stack, this allows us to go from having the combo in hand to on the field without the opponent reacting in between with Swords to Plowshares or Wasteland. From here, if we suspect reactive cards, we beat down until Cabal Therapy or Gitaxian Probe shows us that the way is clear, and then kill them. In the meantime, if they try to kill either combo piece we just combo in response.
Golgari Thug has Dredge 4 and is relevant post-board in multiple ways. I would be very cautious about cutting him.
Keep in mind that I don't like 3 Phantasmagorian even in non-transformational lists, so I'm pretty much entirely uninterested in running a third. It's not a terrible idea, but I think he's just unnecessary as a 3-4 of. I'm glad that you're trying a third rather than immediately jumping up to 4, but I think you should at least test with 2, if you haven't.
Regarding the 2 Darkblast: I think you want 2 just to go nuts with the number of dredgers, and also to better deal with Yixlid Jailer and to hit cards like Peacekeeper when you still have many cards left in the library (as it may take a few turns to bleed them of counters). I also think if you're running 2 you can run something like Woodfall Primus instead of Angel of Despair, basically getting free persist, which I think matters more than being Ichorid food.
Overall, your list looks pretty reasonable.
Edit: To anyone else reading this, note that The_Wall cut the 4th Urza's Bauble rather than the 4th Mishra's Bauble. This is definitely the right call. We have a ton of ways to look at their hand, and seeing an extra card into the future (on their deck) is definitely worth it over sometimes maybe seeing a relevant card.
The original list had Contagion to deal with Yixlid Jailer. Its about the only card in his entire sideboard that I would consider keeping. In a Relic-heavy metagame like you described I'd consider Serum Powder and Leyline of Sanctity in the board.
I find the Sphinx build more consistent at dealing with decks like Zoo and Sligh game 1. The deck goes off on turn 3 average.
Plus I've managed to play the Sphinx build through a pair of first turn Tormod's Crypt with ease, to the point where I don't even bother boarding for them.
Gut Shot is a better answer to Yixlid Jailer but much worse against random creature decks. If Contagion is only there for Jailer, Gut Shot is probably an upgrade. If not, Contagion is probably the way to go (if you really want that effect). Alternately, Dakmor Salvage + Darkblast is fine too.
Edit: I found this little gem in an old PV article:
Take, for example, Dredge. I fully believe that, if Dredge could play a transformational sideboard, it would just win all the tournaments, yet it just doesn’t have one because there is just nothing that it can play. It’d be awesome to completely ignore all those very specific hate cards people bring against you, but how are you going to do that? First, the deck plays a very low number of Lands, so some of your sideboard would have to be Lands to help casting the spells you are bringing. Second, most big cheap creatures you’d bring – historically the main Transformational Sideboard, immortalized in Phyrexian Negator – will end up suffering from the hate anyway. All the time I think of Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker, and how those cards would be so insane as big beaters for two in Dredge, but then I remind myself that they will be bringing cards that happen to combat exactly those cards – your Tombstalker is not going to look very good in the face of a turn 1 Leyline of the Void. You also have so many cards dedicated to the Combo that you’ll end up playing Stinkweed Imps, Careful Studies, and Narcomoebas in your post-sideboard deck, which is just weak. As it is, you just cannot do anything other than combat those cards directly, with cards such as Chain of Vapor and Pithing Needle.
The original list had Contagion to deal with Yixlid Jailer. Its about the only card in his entire sideboard that I would consider keeping. In a Relic-heavy metagame like you described I'd consider Serum Powder and Leyline of Sanctity in the board.
I find the Sphinx build more consistent at dealing with decks like Zoo and Sligh game 1. The deck goes off on turn 3 average.
Plus I've managed to play the Sphinx build through a pair of first turn Tormod's Crypt with ease, to the point where I don't even bother boarding for them.
I was playing Sphinx as a four of. I can post my exact list if I can find my deck.
It was our first Legacy tournament (most people were using some sort of proxies still) and lots of people expected the budget decks to show up in force so they had massive hate against dredge.
As for mentioning a transformational sideboard, that's currently my plan sort of. I'm planning on starting g1 as manaless and trying to make a regular Dredge deck from the sideboard with some anti-hate cards.
Additionally, Undiscovered Paradise blanks the best way to play through reactive cards when you have to go for it with Vampire Hexmage. Namely, cast Hexmage and when it resolves play Dark Depths. Because we get priority after our spells resolve, and playing a land doesn't use the stack, this allows us to go from having the combo in hand to on the field without the opponent reacting in between with Swords to Plowshares or Wasteland.
Worth mentioning that in such scenario you shouldn't activate hexmage right away though. Since having both cards in play doesn't mean you're there just yet. You still give your opponent two openings to deal with your combo. First one being Wasting the land in response to your hexmage trigger, and second one being wasting your land in response to depths' 0 counters trigger. This means that you have to wait for your opponent to waste depths our tap it out. Otherwise he/she can respond to it. Thus a good opposing pilot with a Wasteland in play won't wasteland Dark Depths if both pieces are already in play, effectively stalling you with a hexmage in play and nothing else to do.
Ok, I'm really hooked into this deck. What do you guys think about Realm Razer? wouldn't that be much better than Iona? Iona will only be good against monocolored decks, or against decks that rely too much on one color of mana. Whereas Realm Razer will knock them out of plays for a couple turns no matter what.
I'm well aware of the "float mana" let it land and blow it problem. But heck, we have baubles, we have therapies, we have Gitaxian Probe. It shouldn't be much of a problem IMO. So what are your thoughts on this?
Also, could someone explain why has RIver Kelpie been put over Sphinx of Lost Truths in some builds? I don't see the logic to it. Care to Explain?
Worth mentioning that in such scenario you shouldn't activate hexmage right away though. Since having both cards in play doesn't mean you're there just yet. You still give your opponent two openings to deal with your combo. First one being Wasting the land in response to your hexmage trigger, and second one being wasting your land in response to depths' 0 counters trigger. This means that you have to wait for your opponent to waste depths our tap it out. Otherwise he/she can respond to it. Thus a good opposing pilot with a Wasteland in play won't wasteland Dark Depths if both pieces are already in play, effectively stalling you with a hexmage in play and nothing else to do.
Ok, I'm really hooked into this deck. What do you guys think about Realm Razer? wouldn't that be much better than Iona? Iona will only be good against monocolored decks, or against decks that rely too much on one color of mana. Whereas Realm Razer will knock them out of plays for a couple turns no matter what.
I'm well aware of the "float mana" let it land and blow it problem. But heck, we have baubles, we have therapies, we have Gitaxian Probe. It shouldn't be much of a problem IMO. So what are your thoughts on this?
Also, could someone explain why has RIver Kelpie been put over Sphinx of Lost Truths in some builds? I don't see the logic to it. Care to Explain?
You can activate Vampire Hexmage right away in some situations, mostly the one in which you know they're running Wasteland and they don't currently have one in play, especially if you know they're not running Swords to Plowshares and/or they don't currently have any. Also, if they don't currently have Swords or access to white mana, but they're running both Swords and Wasteland (and don't have one currently untapped), you should activate Hexmage right away to cut down the number/combination of live cards.
River Kelpie is to Sphinx of Lost Truths as Ad Nauseam is to Infernal Tutor (or, say, Infernal Contract). It requires a bigger investment of deck-space and initial resources but is much more powerful and provides more of every resource when it takes effect. In manaless in particular, 4 Dakmor Salvage, 4 Bloodghast makes River Kelpie into a near-guaranteed Draw 5, which is obviously a lot more powerful than a Draw-3. Additionally, it provides an army from a single body (due to Persist) while Sphinx does not.
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Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
I went 6-1 against tempered steel. I know you can say not fair but I went 3-0 when I piloted ts and the games were closer than I expected. I loved contested warzone recurring bloodghast, my friend wasn't expecting that. I'm going to playtest against affinity with a full dredge hate package tonight after I sleeve it.
I went 6-1 against tempered steel. I know you can say not fair but I went 3-0 when I piloted ts and the games were closer than I expected. I loved contested warzone recurring bloodghast, my friend wasn't expecting that. I'm going to playtest against affinity with a full dredge hate package tonight after I sleeve it.
Why were you running Contested War Zone? Who wouldn't be surprised to see that in Dredge, considering that there are so many better options.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Patrician's Scorn, Abolish, and Reverent Silence are, I believe, the only ways to deal with an enchantment without generating mana.
Also Leyline of the Void + Leyline of Singularity. (Presumably also with Serum Powder).
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Abolish seems terrible, in my estimation. The Leyline of Singularity plan does get around counters, but the downside is it takes a million slots and a million cards from your opening hand and it sucks.
I think that Leyline of the Void just isn't common enough right now to be worth having a plan against. 2-3 Playsets in the Top 16 means Manaless probably isn't going to be winning any events, but it also is low enough to let Manaless hit that Top 16 to begin with (imo).
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Ichorid
Discard Outlets:
2 Phantasmagorian
Dredgers:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Dakmor Salvage
2 Darkblast
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
Draw Effects:
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
Dread Return Targets:
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Woodfall Primus
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Barren Moor
The transformational plan is: -4 Narcomoeba, -4 Bridge from Below, -1 River Kelpie, -1 Flame-Kin Zealot, -3 Golgari Grave-Troll, -2 Phantasmagorian, +1 Entire Sideboard
Edit: Made a couple small changes.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
He wouldn't have to with all those Baubles and Cycles.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
This definitely does work post sideboard. I usually mulligan for one of the two combo pieces and try to cantrip into the other. Based on 10 or so games, it usually puts up a win somewhere in the turn 3-6 range, but it can definitely win as early as turn 2 (well, get the 20/20 that early). Additionally, with the influx of land, you can aggro them out.
The plan is there in case they have Leyline of the Void or some other strong hate package (like 4 Relic of Progenitus with backup).
You can dredge them out even after sideboarding. You lose Bridge and Narcomoeba, but it's entirely possible to just beat them to death with Ichorid and Bloodghast.
The combo doesn't necessarily require 4 cards, as Urborg turns Dark Depths into a black source.
As to the number of cards that are dead after sideboarding, I'd put it somewhere in the 5-10 range. Ichorid is a 4-mana Lightning Bolt, and Golgari Grave-Troll I would consider dead, but Golgari Thug and Dread Return can help recurse Vampire Hexmage (so if you have Dark Depths in your opening hand you can actually dredge for black mana and for the Hexmage, if you want; this also shuts down countermagic fairly well, albeit slowly). All those cantrips help filter through the deck and find the combo.
Regarding countermagic: They're definitely not going to keep Spell Snare in unless they see our sideboard (say, via Top 8 lists) which for many decks means Daze and/or Force of Will are the only relevant cards in the deck.
To clarify: To recurse Vampire Hexmage from the graveyard with Golgari Thug, you dredge the Thug, then cast it, then when it resolves you maintain priority and flashback a Cabal Therapy. Put Hexmage on top and draw it next turn. If they have counters, you can do this repeatedly.
As to Wasteland: Unless it looks like we're going to successfully aggro them out, and we have Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, we'd never play out Dark Depths until we can activate it. Dakmor Salvage is nigh-immune to Wasteland, and our opponent's hand should be pretty terrible if they got a Leyline of the Void (where them doing so game 3 is the main reason to run this sideboard at all).
As to the maindeck: I wanted 16 cantrips to maximize combo consistency post-board, and 4 Dakmor Salvage for the same reason. That doesn't leave room for the full playset of Taz and Dread Return targets. Nonetheless, I think the maindeck plays just fine.
Edit: I think I want to cut a Dread Return or two from the maindeck for Darkblast. What do you guys think?
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Round 1:
L 0-2 versus Bant (?)
Game 1 I dredged through 30-40 cards but couldn't find any creatures. I could have started discarding my 2 Nether Shadow from hand at EOT, but I wasn't paying attention (too used to playing Modern) and simply forgot. Game 2 I had a much more reasonable series of dredges and discarded with Phantasmagorian against an active Knight of the Reliquary. He responded by Bojuka Bogging my graveyard, but I had a few zombie tokens. We played draw-go for a few turns while I chumped his Knight, and he killed me right as I was getting things together. Absent my misplay, I think I definitely would have won.
Round 2:
W 2-0 versus Hive Mind
Games 1 and 2 I shred his hand as I combo him out and kill him before he can do anything but cantrip and counter Cabal Therapys.
Round 3:
W 2-1 versus UWr (?) Control
Game 1 I crushed, fairly straightforward.
Game 2 He landed a Peacekeeper and due to my forgetting that I sideboarded out a Dread Return I killed myself via mill (I combo'ed down to zero cards in library), despite zero pressure. He had a semi-relevant Moat in hand when the game ended.
Game 3 I played more conservatively and used Realm Razer to lock him out(killing Peacekeeper), and a horde of tokens and some Ichorid to lethal him exactly. He had Moat but could never play it due to Peacekeeper's upkeep cost.
Round 4:
W 2-0 versus Stasis Control
Orb of Dreams was his only relevant play Game 1, so I killed him with a turn or two of delay.
Game 2 he eventually landed Stasis but I managed to kill him with Ichorid, unintentionally playing around Echoing Truth by not bringing back more-than-lethal Ichorids.
Top 8:
L 1-2 versus Zoo:
Game 1 he beat face with multiple huge Tarmogoyf, but I combo'ed out with River Kelpie doing some gymnastics to kill him.
Game 2 he had Leyline of the Void.
Game 3 he had Leyline of the Void.
After playing some more games, I think the main-deck beats almost everything, especially if you include Darkblast, and if it does you can just sideboard an anti-Leyline of the Void plan and win those matches too. I'm much more intent on the Vampire Hexmage plan than I was before.
Regarding the sideboard, it seemed like none of it mattered at all, except Realm Razer and possibly Child of Alara.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Hi guys ! im currently building a deck that i saw in Star City Games tournament Cincinnati.
The deck is Manaless Dredge.
The PROBLEM is that i dont understand why phantasmagorian is suppose to be a must in this deck and what is the super combo he's suppose to do...
Can you explain me the mechanic around it plz.
And what about Street Wraith... (pay 2 life discard it (create zombie with Bridge from Below) + draw a card?)
Thx for your help !
3 Dakmor Salvage
CREATURES
4 Bloodghast
4 Street Wraith
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Shambling Shell
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Nether Shadow
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Gigapede
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
OTHER SPELLS
4 Bridge from Below
1 Gigapede
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Terastodon
1 Stormtide Leviathan
1 Blazing Archon
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
4 Contagion
Street wraith lets you dredge off the draw. so he basically gives 1 free dredge activation (or a 2 life dredge activation)
thanks to The Highlight Studios for the amazing avatar
Here is the description of Phantasmagorian.
« When you play(discard it to put it in the graveyard?) Phantasmagorian, any player(me) may discard three cards (dredgers if possible). If a player does (discard 3 card), counter Phantasmagorian (???).
Discard three cards: Return Phantasmagorian from your graveyard to your hand.» (repeat the combo??)
Street Wraith: how can you dredge with this card? you use a dread return? it come in play, after that, you pay 2 life --» you discard a dredger and draw a card?
Street Wraith has the ability "Cycle". If you bother to read the reminder text, it is clear that the ability can only be activated from the hand.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Match 1: vs UW Control
Game 1: I explode on turn 3 and bad things happen to him.
Game 2: He leads Tundra in to Relic of Progenitus.
Game 3: He leads Island in to Relic, turn two he drops a second Relic.
0-1
Match 2: vs Zoo
Game 1: He beats in with Goyfs as I fail to find Dredgers anywhere.
Game 2: He leads turn 1 Relic of Progenitus in to turn two Relic of Progenitus.
0-2
Match 3: vs Suicide Black
Game 1: He leads off with Dark Ritual in to Jailer.
Game 2: He leads off with the same.
0-3
Match 4: vs Sligh
Game 1: I get crushed by damage on turn 4 before I was able to go off.
Game 2: I draw a 3 Street Wraith hand and think this is the wrong deck for that. But, when I swing 9 Zombies and a Zealot on turn 3 I figure that six life was worth it.
Game 3: He draws the nuts and has me burned out on turn 3.
0-4
Match 5: vs Donate Illusions
Both games I just played with myself after a turn four Iona lands naming blue against a mono blue deck.
1-4
Manaless Dredge
Standard:
Jund Birthing Pod Toolbox
I would cautiously advise against playing graveyard-based decks in your metagame.
I'm thinking of cutting an Ichorid for a Nether Shadow, as I'm not sure if I can really support 4 Ichorid. That said, Ichy is often a full turn faster, always bigger, and sacrifices himself. All of this is obviously awesome.
Barren Moor is approximately infinitely better than Undiscovered Paradise. The plan post-board is to play multiple lands which produce only black mana, and kill them. Additionally, Undiscovered Paradise blanks the best way to play through reactive cards when you have to go for it with Vampire Hexmage. Namely, cast Hexmage and when it resolves play Dark Depths. Because we get priority after our spells resolve, and playing a land doesn't use the stack, this allows us to go from having the combo in hand to on the field without the opponent reacting in between with Swords to Plowshares or Wasteland. From here, if we suspect reactive cards, we beat down until Cabal Therapy or Gitaxian Probe shows us that the way is clear, and then kill them. In the meantime, if they try to kill either combo piece we just combo in response.
Golgari Thug has Dredge 4 and is relevant post-board in multiple ways. I would be very cautious about cutting him.
Keep in mind that I don't like 3 Phantasmagorian even in non-transformational lists, so I'm pretty much entirely uninterested in running a third. It's not a terrible idea, but I think he's just unnecessary as a 3-4 of. I'm glad that you're trying a third rather than immediately jumping up to 4, but I think you should at least test with 2, if you haven't.
Regarding the 2 Darkblast: I think you want 2 just to go nuts with the number of dredgers, and also to better deal with Yixlid Jailer and to hit cards like Peacekeeper when you still have many cards left in the library (as it may take a few turns to bleed them of counters). I also think if you're running 2 you can run something like Woodfall Primus instead of Angel of Despair, basically getting free persist, which I think matters more than being Ichorid food.
Overall, your list looks pretty reasonable.
Edit: To anyone else reading this, note that The_Wall cut the 4th Urza's Bauble rather than the 4th Mishra's Bauble. This is definitely the right call. We have a ton of ways to look at their hand, and seeing an extra card into the future (on their deck) is definitely worth it over sometimes maybe seeing a relevant card.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Gut Shot is a better answer to Yixlid Jailer but much worse against random creature decks. If Contagion is only there for Jailer, Gut Shot is probably an upgrade. If not, Contagion is probably the way to go (if you really want that effect). Alternately, Dakmor Salvage + Darkblast is fine too.
Edit: I found this little gem in an old PV article:
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
I was playing Sphinx as a four of. I can post my exact list if I can find my deck.
It was our first Legacy tournament (most people were using some sort of proxies still) and lots of people expected the budget decks to show up in force so they had massive hate against dredge.
As for mentioning a transformational sideboard, that's currently my plan sort of. I'm planning on starting g1 as manaless and trying to make a regular Dredge deck from the sideboard with some anti-hate cards.
Manaless Dredge
Standard:
Jund Birthing Pod Toolbox
Worth mentioning that in such scenario you shouldn't activate hexmage right away though. Since having both cards in play doesn't mean you're there just yet. You still give your opponent two openings to deal with your combo. First one being Wasting the land in response to your hexmage trigger, and second one being wasting your land in response to depths' 0 counters trigger. This means that you have to wait for your opponent to waste depths our tap it out. Otherwise he/she can respond to it. Thus a good opposing pilot with a Wasteland in play won't wasteland Dark Depths if both pieces are already in play, effectively stalling you with a hexmage in play and nothing else to do.
Ok, I'm really hooked into this deck. What do you guys think about Realm Razer? wouldn't that be much better than Iona? Iona will only be good against monocolored decks, or against decks that rely too much on one color of mana. Whereas Realm Razer will knock them out of plays for a couple turns no matter what.
I'm well aware of the "float mana" let it land and blow it problem. But heck, we have baubles, we have therapies, we have Gitaxian Probe. It shouldn't be much of a problem IMO. So what are your thoughts on this?
Also, could someone explain why has RIver Kelpie been put over Sphinx of Lost Truths in some builds? I don't see the logic to it. Care to Explain?
NeoFinnity... A Control Affinity Primer
You can activate Vampire Hexmage right away in some situations, mostly the one in which you know they're running Wasteland and they don't currently have one in play, especially if you know they're not running Swords to Plowshares and/or they don't currently have any. Also, if they don't currently have Swords or access to white mana, but they're running both Swords and Wasteland (and don't have one currently untapped), you should activate Hexmage right away to cut down the number/combination of live cards.
I really like Realm Razer in place of Woodfall Primus except that he fails to hit a lot of the soft-hate we might care about in a longer game, like Ensnaring Bridge, Ghostly Prison, or Moat.
River Kelpie is to Sphinx of Lost Truths as Ad Nauseam is to Infernal Tutor (or, say, Infernal Contract). It requires a bigger investment of deck-space and initial resources but is much more powerful and provides more of every resource when it takes effect. In manaless in particular, 4 Dakmor Salvage, 4 Bloodghast makes River Kelpie into a near-guaranteed Draw 5, which is obviously a lot more powerful than a Draw-3. Additionally, it provides an army from a single body (due to Persist) while Sphinx does not.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
currently playing:
Standard
UW Control
UWB Control
UB Control
MODERN
BRGJund
X Affinity
UWR Control
LEGACY
Dredge
R Burn
UWx Miracles
EDH
BRW Kaalia
______
Quotes:
My Magic Card nicknames.
You have to built the SB exclusively to deal with that, such as using Reverent Silence and possibly a mana base to use it, or SB in Forest.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Why were you running Contested War Zone? Who wouldn't be surprised to see that in Dredge, considering that there are so many better options.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
I wasn't running it he wasn't running contested warzone. I got control of it by ichorids beating face thus triggering bloodG's landfall ability.