Do you favor Echoing Truth over Chain of Vapor? Is there any reason you run the former in the side rather than the latter?
It's something that I'm testing to specifically fight Eldrazi's Leyline with Chalice on 1. It also helps that it hits all Leylines should the opponent open with multiples.
Edit: FNM didn't fire off but I got a few of these flip tokens yesterday. Click.
Welp, I'm mad. I'll trade you a pack of 100 Islands for your Zombie tokens. That way you can play the best deck in format: Show-N-Tell + Omniscience + 52 Islands. After all, you could be representing anything with 16 untapped Islands.
I've unironically built that deck at least once, except mainboard game 1 was Mountains and Lightning Storm. So when people board in their Leyline of Sanctity, I just board out Lightning Storm and put in Zombie Infestation plus Swamps.
Granted, I still lost to counterspells... It was a simpler time in Magic.
White just got a new toolbox card, Recruiter of the Guard. This could be a non-issue if we're quick, but I reckon this card is gonna fit in a few lists out there.
Thing about this card is the sheer number of cards out there it can grab, and not just the slow ones like Containment Priest or Jötun Grunt, but the ones they can use instantly, like Faerie Macabre.
I smell trouble.....
Just look at this new toy Sanctum Prelate. It shuts us down at 1 and they can flicker it and choose a different number like 4 for Dread Return or 2 for Abrupt Decay. Just imagine a turn 2 Thalia followed by a turn 3 Sanctum Prelate on 0, 1, 2, or 4. I almost forgot, the new recruiter can fetch for this card as well. They better have something for us Dredge pilots to make things more interesting. Or else we need to go off on turn 1 or 2 (if we win the die roll) against D&T.
Honestly, since Dredge is played so little in the meta right now, I don't think we'll see many changes in the sideboard. If SHABOOGS goes out and steamrolls people on stream at an SCG Open event, then there's some cause for concern. I feel like Cedric Phillips and Patrick Sullivan said it best in this video: no one goes up to someone and says "Hey want to test the Dredge match-up?" Most of the time they go "Let's do the Delver mirror" or "Let's test Miracles versus Storm" and things like that.
So, I mean, we could be concerned. Or we could loom like an impending shaodw and enjoy their quaking fear.
If SHABOOGS goes out and steamrolls people on stream at an SCG Open event, then there's some cause for concern.
I'd love to see anyone on stream play Legacy Dredge in a big tournament and succeed. I personally would really love to play in a big tournament like SCG, BOM, or a GP but my location is way too far and too expensive for me to go to most of them. I was originally going to play at GP Chiba this November but my financial situation right now just makes it impossible. Plus GP Chiba sold out in a day I think. If by any chance we get another Legacy GP in Asia next year I would def make it a point to go there and represent the Dredge banner. My friend who went last year also told me that there weren't any Dredge pilots in that GP which should have made it the perfect place to strike. Being under the radar is one of this archetype's strengths.
I'll be at the Eternal Week end in Paris in octobre It's for the title of European Legacy Champion and of course I'll be dredging the hell out of that tournament ^^ let's hope for the best Would have loved to be able to be at BOM in Paris also but I'll be at work (the money needs to come from somewhere to pay for all the cards :-p )
Hey man, good luck out there! Give 'em hell!
(Just moved, there's no Legacy at any local shops near me. Please send help.)
I'll be at the Eternal Week end in Paris in octobre It's for the title of European Legacy Champion and of course I'll be dredging the hell out of that tournament ^^ let's hope for the best Would have loved to be able to be at BOM in Paris also but I'll be at work (the money needs to come from somewhere to pay for all the cards :-p )
Good luck. Hope they stream the matches so we can watch you kill them with zombies.
So after doing some testing, I've decided it's best for me to keep Flame-Kin Zealot in the main.
While I liked the 4 Golgari Thug, I honestly felt better having FKZ as an out rather than relying solely on Golgari Grave-Troll, Zombie tokens, Ichorid beats or Iona. It just feels better to have an Alpha Strike sitting in my graveyard in case I want to pop it off with 4 or 5 Zombies lingering on the field. My current list feels like the best I can make it without maxing out on LEDs (which will probably involve cutting a DR target) or Careful Study.
Anyways, I'd like some opinions on this to make sure I'm doing the right thing.
@GoldenOldBoy: 3 LED looks weird to me. Is it a budget issue? How does your list feel when you're goldfishing or playtesting? I think that as long as you know the ins and outs of the deck, tweaking a few cards based on preference is fine. For example: I dropped PImp on my list and have a Flayer package. Less bodies for a lethal FKZ and zombie finish but just enough to get it done with Flayer and GGT.
Edit: Scratch that. Saw the description on your link.
@GoldenOldBoy: 3 LED looks weird to me. Is it a budget issue? How does your list feel when you're goldfishing or playtesting? I think that as long as you know the ins and outs of the deck, tweaking a few cards based on preference is fine. For example: I dropped PImp on my list and have a Flayer package. Less bodies for a lethal FKZ and zombie finish but just enough to get it done with Flayer and GGT.
Edit: Scratch that. Saw the description on your link.
Yeah, I think I should be running 4 LEDs just for consistency and combo purposes, but I don't know what else to cut besides a Dread Return target. I'm already low on Ichorid food (running 3 Putrid Imp and 3 Golgari Thug) so it feels like perhaps I'm trying too hard to ensure a win in game one (which we have an incredibly good win percentage in anyways)? Wouldn't it be more purposeful to shift Iona, Shield of Emeria and a Dread Return to the side and go deep on Zombies and Ichorids? I'm not sure what else to do here. The deck runs as well as it can, but there's something about having 11 Dredgers and a shortage of Ichorid food that makes me nervous.
tl;dr here's my perceived problems with my deck, even though I don't want to change anything:
Cut 1 DR in the main it's by far enough for a combo kill ! I struggled a long time with this but having just one target in the main and one DR ist perfect. The one turn combo kill is cool but in our case not necessary !
Agree with most of all you've mentioned except for the Dread Returns. It's not just the combo kill with FKZ where you want the card. I sometimes just make a huge Golgari Grave Troll if I want to pressure the board. With mana up for regeneration, it's a fast clock. I've had games where the Dread Return gets stuck towards the bottom of the deck and I wanted 2 to possible bring more threats to the board.
I've also been playing 1x Prized Amalgam in the main to test it out. So far, I haven't been unhappy. He triggers off Narcomoebas and Ichorids. I can sac him to Cabal Therapy etc. Sure he dies to bolt but unless he gets exiled, he always comes back. Wouldn't say he's a must play but try it out?
Also, played a hilarious game recently. Opponent was playing Turbo Depths. G1 he surprised me with Bojuka Bog and I died quick.
Game 2. T1: I Cabal Therapy him naming Crop Rotation. He has 2 in hand. But I see a Bojuka Bog as well...always threatens to not let me go off unless I try a big turn with an LED + Faithless Looting. But didn't see those in my opening.
We both develop our hands. In the end, I hard cast a Narcomoeba, Prized Amalgam and 2x Golgari Thug over 4 turns and just beat down with *****ty inefficient creatures. He finds nothing else. The game ended without a single dredge! That's gotta be a first...
I also agree with Yannutwin except for the DR count with dedicated DR targets. If you are playing a single dedicated DR target like FKZ, 2 DR would be the bare minimum coz 1 DR would not be consistent enough for a dedicated DR target like FKZ in most cases. If you have more than 1 dedicated DR target, then I would suggest increasing the DR count as well. In summary:
0 non-GGT dedicated DR target = 0-2 DR
1 non-GGT dedicated DR target = 2 DR (3 for Flayer)
2 non-GGT dedicated DR target = 3 DR
My suggestions are of course based of my list Running no DR target other than GG I really have no need for more main board =)
I think GoldenOldBoy was looking for suggestions to keep his dedicated DR target in the main. I understand that having no DR target other than GGT is often enough to get free wins, but getting the occassional "supercombofinish" via FKZ/DK/Flayer also appeals to some pilots.
I did some testing and in the end I decided to drop Iona from the main, max out on LEDs, and once I get my 4th Careful Study in the mail I'll be swapping it out with one copy of Breakthrough. I goldfished for about three to four hours last night and it played really well; the deck was far more streamlined without the Iona package and I found myself relying more on Ichorids and Zombie tokens.
So, surprise! Now I'm actually playing a focused deck. And yes, it always feels good to hit FKZ.
Also, I wanted to ask about sideboarding. It's easy to know what comes into a deck, but how does one choose what comes out of a deck? Against the big decks like Miracles, Delver, Storm, and Reanimator I'm never sure what I should drop from the main in order to bring in the sideboard. I've noticed that a lot of primers on this website lack this critical information, e.g., what to cut in order to make room. LED immediately comes to mind as less powerful on the draw in game 2.
I know I'm posting a lot but I feel this is important to have in our primer, especially for new players when they come to learn about the deck.
That is a great suggestion, OldBoy. I think we should include a section about what to take out after game one.
Fortunately, taking out a lot of cards is bad for us. That makes it easy. Personally, if I am sideboarding in anti-graveyard hate cards then I tend to cut my all-in cards, which would be some combination of Lion's Eye Diamond and Breakthrough. In fact, that is almost always my plan no matter what I want to bring in.
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Edit: FNM didn't fire off but I got a few of these flip tokens yesterday. Click.
Granted, I still lost to counterspells... It was a simpler time in Magic.
SPOILER ALERT
=============
White just got a new toolbox card, Recruiter of the Guard. This could be a non-issue if we're quick, but I reckon this card is gonna fit in a few lists out there.
Thing about this card is the sheer number of cards out there it can grab, and not just the slow ones like Containment Priest or Jötun Grunt, but the ones they can use instantly, like Faerie Macabre.
I smell trouble.....
Oh, only that? Pfft, doesn't seem too-
Conspiracy: Death and Taxes edition
Just look at this new toy Sanctum Prelate. It shuts us down at 1 and they can flicker it and choose a different number like 4 for Dread Return or 2 for Abrupt Decay. Just imagine a turn 2 Thalia followed by a turn 3 Sanctum Prelate on 0, 1, 2, or 4. I almost forgot, the new recruiter can fetch for this card as well. They better have something for us Dredge pilots to make things more interesting. Or else we need to go off on turn 1 or 2 (if we win the die roll) against D&T.
So, I mean, we could be concerned. Or we could loom like an impending shaodw and enjoy their quaking fear.
Hey man, good luck out there! Give 'em hell!
(Just moved, there's no Legacy at any local shops near me. Please send help.)
While I liked the 4 Golgari Thug, I honestly felt better having FKZ as an out rather than relying solely on Golgari Grave-Troll, Zombie tokens, Ichorid beats or Iona. It just feels better to have an Alpha Strike sitting in my graveyard in case I want to pop it off with 4 or 5 Zombies lingering on the field. My current list feels like the best I can make it without maxing out on LEDs (which will probably involve cutting a DR target) or Careful Study.
Anyways, I'd like some opinions on this to make sure I'm doing the right thing.
Your list looks fine to me, GoldenOldBoy. Just keep doing your thing.
3 LED looks weird to me. Is it a budget issue?How does your list feel when you're goldfishing or playtesting? I think that as long as you know the ins and outs of the deck, tweaking a few cards based on preference is fine. For example: I dropped PImp on my list and have a Flayer package. Less bodies for a lethal FKZ and zombie finish but just enough to get it done with Flayer and GGT.Edit: Scratch that. Saw the description on your link.
Yeah, I think I should be running 4 LEDs just for consistency and combo purposes, but I don't know what else to cut besides a Dread Return target. I'm already low on Ichorid food (running 3 Putrid Imp and 3 Golgari Thug) so it feels like perhaps I'm trying too hard to ensure a win in game one (which we have an incredibly good win percentage in anyways)? Wouldn't it be more purposeful to shift Iona, Shield of Emeria and a Dread Return to the side and go deep on Zombies and Ichorids? I'm not sure what else to do here. The deck runs as well as it can, but there's something about having 11 Dredgers and a shortage of Ichorid food that makes me nervous.
tl;dr here's my perceived problems with my deck, even though I don't want to change anything:
Edit:
What if I went for the FKZ combo in the main instead and just moved Iona to the side and cut Chain of Vapor entirely?
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Putrid Imp
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
Artifacts/Enchantments
4 Bridge from Below
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
3 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
3 Lotus Petal
1 Ashen Rider
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Nature's Claim
3 Firestorm
2 Echoing Truth
Agree with most of all you've mentioned except for the Dread Returns. It's not just the combo kill with FKZ where you want the card. I sometimes just make a huge Golgari Grave Troll if I want to pressure the board. With mana up for regeneration, it's a fast clock. I've had games where the Dread Return gets stuck towards the bottom of the deck and I wanted 2 to possible bring more threats to the board.
I've also been playing 1x Prized Amalgam in the main to test it out. So far, I haven't been unhappy. He triggers off Narcomoebas and Ichorids. I can sac him to Cabal Therapy etc. Sure he dies to bolt but unless he gets exiled, he always comes back. Wouldn't say he's a must play but try it out?
Also, played a hilarious game recently. Opponent was playing Turbo Depths. G1 he surprised me with Bojuka Bog and I died quick.
Game 2. T1: I Cabal Therapy him naming Crop Rotation. He has 2 in hand. But I see a Bojuka Bog as well...always threatens to not let me go off unless I try a big turn with an LED + Faithless Looting. But didn't see those in my opening.
We both develop our hands. In the end, I hard cast a Narcomoeba, Prized Amalgam and 2x Golgari Thug over 4 turns and just beat down with *****ty inefficient creatures. He finds nothing else. The game ended without a single dredge! That's gotta be a first...
0 non-GGT dedicated DR target = 0-2 DR
1 non-GGT dedicated DR target = 2 DR (3 for Flayer)
2 non-GGT dedicated DR target = 3 DR
So, surprise! Now I'm actually playing a focused deck. And yes, it always feels good to hit FKZ.
Also, I wanted to ask about sideboarding. It's easy to know what comes into a deck, but how does one choose what comes out of a deck? Against the big decks like Miracles, Delver, Storm, and Reanimator I'm never sure what I should drop from the main in order to bring in the sideboard. I've noticed that a lot of primers on this website lack this critical information, e.g., what to cut in order to make room. LED immediately comes to mind as less powerful on the draw in game 2.
I know I'm posting a lot but I feel this is important to have in our primer, especially for new players when they come to learn about the deck.
Fortunately, taking out a lot of cards is bad for us. That makes it easy. Personally, if I am sideboarding in anti-graveyard hate cards then I tend to cut my all-in cards, which would be some combination of Lion's Eye Diamond and Breakthrough. In fact, that is almost always my plan no matter what I want to bring in.