Should be SFM. I actualy tested this deck alot today and deed is a good sideboard card but not what I wanted enough to keep it mb. I was however board in lilana so often and she was so good when I drew her I almost want to run 2 main deck. One game was T1 DRS pass. He T1 DRS. T2 lilana kill his DRS pass . He plays and land passes . I T3 jace he just scoops. I am for sure going to main deck her and kick pulse 2 to the SB I'm not sure if cutting a SB and kicking another hymn to SB is correct or not but I'm going to main her for now she's been solid.
I tried the pure control build its just not as good as shardless bug for my meta at least. The other list's still work just not as well or as fun. Also DRS is just too good to not use he's like a 1 mana plains walker birds of paradise hybrid that blocks goblin lackeys. lol
Well I have been playing alot of legacy last few days this list and DDFT. First off my build is working awesome right now I win most if my matches. As I play the deck though I find in alot of matchups I find myself boarding out 1 or even 2-3 hymn to tourach. Also liliana has been incredible she's just as good in hymn in most matchups if not better and alot better int the MU hymn is not. Thinking of cutting hymn #3 MD for liliana #2 thoughts?
Edit; baleful strix has been MUCH better than I anticipated as well. On alot of fair MU hymn is an abysmal top deck when all you need to do to stabilize is deal with on board threats. Liliana and strix are both fairly good for this if the deck didn't already have so many blank or subpar cards game 1 vs combo I'm pretty sure I'd kick all the hymns to SB for 4 strix 2 liliana lineup. But for now baby steps as always hymn is an amazing turn 2-4 play it just seems weaker after that 2 might be the right number DRS into liliana when your opponent drops a t1 creature is just brutal.
Edit; baleful strix has been MUCH better than I anticipated as well. On alot of fair MU hymn is an abysmal top deck when all you need to do to stabilize is deal with on board threats. Liliana and strix are both fairly good for this if the deck didn't already have so many blank or subpar cards game 1 vs combo I'm pretty sure I'd kick all the hymns to SB for 4 strix 2 liliana lineup. But for now baby steps as always hymn is an amazing turn 2-4 play it just seems weaker after that 2 might be the right number DRS into liliana when your opponent drops a t1 creature is just brutal.
as ive stated before, strix is a deck allstar imo, though ive seen many successful lists running 2x recently.
something i am curious in is the 22 land count as of late, how are people liking that? I currently am at 23, but dropping a land for more spells might be a better call. Currently i run a little land heavy because i run sub-optimal Vinelasher Kudzu over goyf due to my lack of goyf funds. (heres hoping modern masters drop his price by about 20 bucks a pop)
22 lands is fine considering i run 2 less wastelands than you do. I never really want more than 1 wasteland in this deck due to high colored mana requirements and people realizing DRS needs to die ASAP. Also getting wasted by a deck that has stronger 1 drops can really hurt if your holding your own. DRS is not in every opening hand ( i wish) so less wastelands are fine. the only games i have been stuck on 2 or less lands have been when i don't get DRS and i get wasted but that happens 22 or 23 doesn't matter. How have you liked 4 hymn? I seem to only put 4 copies in when im dealing with no permanents IE storm and i just want 0 dead cards but even in this MU Liliana is a powerhouse as well. Also i don't know how i feel about the plants im sure they are good early but for those games you don't find them until later :/ heck even pick them up 1 by 1. You were very right on strix i need to find a 4th copy as im relizing this deck really doesn't need the DEED. So the deed slot im gonna either kick hymn #2 too and play another MD Liliana if i can find one (swear i had 2) if not i want to find another strix.. Deck has been very powerful for me so far been testing alot against my buddy on R/U dlever today was back and fourth but i won more than my fair share i actually really liked the MD FOW against tempo for G1. Also is crushes my DDFT combo deck in me playing against myself. So far i have went to some smaller nights but other than me just drawing horrible and mulling to 5 and drawing bad again im not losing with this deck very often,
22 lands is fine considering i run 2 less wastelands than you do. I never really want more than 1 wasteland in this deck due to high colored mana requirements and people realizing DRS needs to die ASAP. Also getting wasted by a deck that has stronger 1 drops can really hurt if your holding your own. DRS is not in every opening hand ( i wish) so less wastelands are fine. the only games i have been stuck on 2 or less lands have been when i don't get DRS and i get wasted but that happens 22 or 23 doesn't matter. How have you liked 4 hymn? I seem to only put 4 copies in when im dealing with no permanents IE storm and i just want 0 dead cards but even in this MU Liliana is a powerhouse as well. Also i don't know how i feel about the plants im sure they are good early but for those games you don't find them until later :/ heck even pick them up 1 by 1. You were very right on strix i need to find a 4th copy as im relizing this deck really doesn't need the DEED. So the deed slot im gonna either kick hymn #2 too and play another MD Liliana if i can find one (swear i had 2) if not i want to find another strix.. Deck has been very powerful for me so far been testing alot against my buddy on R/U dlever today was back and fourth but i won more than my fair share i actually really liked the MD FOW against tempo for G1. Also is crushes my DDFT combo deck in me playing against myself. So far i have went to some smaller nights but other than me just drawing horrible and mulling to 5 and drawing bad again im not losing with this deck very often,
Wasteland: 2 does seem to be the magic number as of late. I think i will drop 1, go down to 3 wastelands, and see where that puts me.
I want to drop deed from my list as well, and pick up some maelstrom pulses to fill the open 2 slots ill have (-1 waste, -1 deed).
I enjoy having 4 hymns, due to the devastating effect a turn 2 hymn into a turn 3 hymn (or better yet, hymn off a cascade on turn 3). I dont think i'll part with them, especially since i lack targeted discard in my main deck.
i ONLY run the plants because i cant afford goyf. simple as that. i'd love to replace them. as you stated, i will be getting goyfs 1 by 1. Gotta take my time though. cant run out and get them. im thinking i'll pick 1 up if i see it hit 90, and move from there.
Yea understandable. The hymns are good liliana has just been even better still trying to find my other copy. 3 waste probly fine I almost want to test a few basics but this might be due to my number one test partner playing u/r delver and MDing 4 price of progress XD. I dunno I normally feel best with 2-3 hymns in most fair MU.
I'd really like to build a Bug Depths deck. A strong Bug control shell with the Dark Depths combo as the primary win-con. Maybe Jace and/or worm harvest/creeping tar pit as secondary win-cons. Thoughts?
Although I havent' said much, I've been following you guys (only in this forum) to see how the deck evolves.
My meta is aggro and combo, with some Junds and almost no control or tempo, so I decided to go Shardless with a lot of attrition. In my opinion, there are cards that, although they are pure Card Advantage, more CA is not needed and what you need is to stabilize in order for some other CA cards to win the game for you.
With this in mind, and willing to optimize my first turns to avoid getting out of solutions too early, I played a more conservative option, a deck that was focused to a war of attrition.
I'm not here to bother you with yet-another decklist. I'll only point out the "major" changes:
- Play Thoughtseize instead of Hymn To Tourach.
I decided to have a better T1, affect my opponent if I was on the play and to see what I was facing as soon as I could. Also, my idea was to remove key cards and prepare for other threads instead of "just" discarding him. (let me point out I'm a big fan of Hymtos)
- Play 4 Baleful Strix.
This card claims Card Advantage everywhere. It also pumps Goyf in the yard. If i don't play into Hymto, I'd better play into Strix
- 2 Pernicious Deed main.
I'll win the long run, I'm sure of that and I will reach it.
- 2 Disfigure main
I want to kill all the Deathrites I can face at T1, and all the Delvers, Guides, Khalias on the spot. There are a lot of targets for this spell, I'm happy with it
- No Ancestral Vision in the deck
Yep, I may be doing it wrong, but to get benefit of it I need to be able to resolve it. I prefer to do other things T1 (Thoughtseize) rather than suspending this, and sorting it out of a Shardless means I need to use Brainstorms for that, they are already optimized for me. Also, I play 2 liliana, and Ancestral Visions didn't work well for me in playtesting (when I didn't have the strix yet, I bought them before registering the deck).
- 2 Liliana of the Veil + 2 Pernicious Deed + 3 Abrupt Decay + 2 Disfigure is a lot of board control. If you sum Jace, you get a kind of blue version of jund.
I went undefeated in Swiss rounds (4 win, 1 Draw, 1 ID) but lost Top 8 to Miracles-RIP. I can give you more info if needed.
For me, in that tournament:
- The WORST: Tombstalker. I played 2 of them as they combo great with Pernicious Deed and the deck was more aggro before getting the strixes. Sadly, they were disppointing and have to be out.
- The BEST: Strix. I loved when I draw them or when I cascaded into them. They stalled the ground enough time for the rest of the deck to catch in. They bought time and Card Advantge, great for UB.
You deck sounds more like a team america hybrid moreso than a shardless agent or bug control build.
Something i love about the BUG shell is how mutable it is with cards. I could play raw control tomorrow, swap out 8 cards and become team america and then swap out another 8 and become shardless bug.
Congrats on the top 8 man. Do you have a play by play report on your tourney climb?
I'd really like to build a Bug Depths deck. A strong Bug control shell with the Dark Depths combo as the primary win-con. Maybe Jace and/or worm harvest/creeping tar pit as secondary win-cons. Thoughts?
Josh
Between Swords to Plowshares, Terminus, and Karakas, not to mention countermagic, U/W/x Control decks have tons of outs to depths tokens.
Aggro decks have Wasteland and sometimes Stifle, plus again countermagic.
Against combo, this is a t4 kill at the earliest, which is often a bit too slow, especially as it applies little other pressure.
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Between Swords to Plowshares, Terminus, and Karakas, not to mention countermagic, U/W/x Control decks have tons of outs to depths tokens.
Aggro decks have Wasteland and sometimes Stifle, plus again countermagic.
Against combo, this is a t4 kill at the earliest, which is often a bit too slow, especially as it applies little other pressure.
not to mention her evasion is not a win con, considering lingering souls buys them 4 turns. i dont think its a wise win cond at all
Here's the point, Why is Ancestral Vision good in here as a 4 of? What's the plan with this card? For me, it doesn't solve anything and it's an awful topdeck (like Hymtos or discard, usually).
Thanks for the recap.
The idea with Ancestral are the following reasons:
1) We are greedy with this deck. we want cool interactions and we are chasing the dragon in hopes of catching a cascade into it.
2) We carry 3-4 jace, 4 brainstorm. If we top deck it we can always pitch it back in or in really fortuitous situations, set up our cascade.
3) Its actually a fantastic turn 1 play. A good opponent will plan to counter it, but to us, thats as if they threw away 1-2 cards in hand with a minor choice, making it essentially a turn 1 hymn to as they cling to their counter magic. If they dont, when we reach into mid game, we hit a draw 4 cards reload, which is amazingly powerful.
4) in the event that its sitting in hand, its not gaining us any ground, and we draw into it mid-late game without a way to shuffle it back in, we can still pitch it to force of will. If we shift to disfigure and thoughtseize, we lose out on 4 more blue cards in the deck. we dont want to get caught pitching strix or agent to force, and that leaves us brainstorm and jace as our other blue cards.
All that said, ive heard from several people claiming success. I have been playing the deck for about 3 months now, put it together late january because i got tired of reanimator combo with a SnT sideboard. In my experience, Strix is the deck's unsung all star, but i strongly feel ancestral is a clutch card as well.
In the coming months where punishing fire seems to grow in popularity, i think reloading your hand will become more and more important.
If what you say is true, and Punishing becomes the way to go, think about Sinkhole to keep them from the land they need to recast it and you are golden. Really, keeping Jund out of BB and out of 4th mana is so vital...
How's Shardless BUG's MU against combo? I've heard it's not a combo killer like RUG or Esper Stoneblade, but it's significantly better than Jund at fighting combo. I ask because I'm thinking about switching over to it from Jund and because my meta is mostly combo.
Notion thief IMO isn't even worth worrying about. Theoretically you can gotcha people with it, but at 4 mana and the opponent having to cast brainstorm it doesn't seem worth it to run anywhere. Its better to simply run the jace.
Notion thief IMO isn't even worth worrying about. Theoretically you can gotcha people with it, but at 4 mana and the opponent having to cast brainstorm it doesn't seem worth it to run anywhere. Its better to simply run the jace.
Though I do agree for the most part with this, I do find that it seems...particularly easy to screw over people's Ancestral Visions, as you can see it (Visions) coming a mile away and will have time to prep for it. Seems like it at least...
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Though I do agree for the most part with this, I do find that it seems...particularly easy to screw over people's Ancestral Visions, as you can see it (Visions) coming a mile away and will have time to prep for it. Seems like it at least...
the problem with notion thief is that his effect is incredible, but you have to take into account his cost. you have to pass on turn 4 without accomplishing anything on the hope that they are prepping for a brainstorm. Yes, its a massive and incredible swing if it lands, but i just cant imagine him being worth it. He's a side board card at best imo, and what sb card are you going to drop to replace him with?
the problem with notion thief is that his effect is incredible, but you have to take into account his cost. you have to pass on turn 4 without accomplishing anything on the hope that they are prepping for a brainstorm. Yes, its a massive and incredible swing if it lands, but i just cant imagine him being worth it. He's a side board card at best imo, and what sb card are you going to drop to replace him with?
I just feel like he's a card that, should BUG and its variants become popular enough to where people start trying to actively super-hate it, he'd be THAT guy; as with 3-4x Visions, 4x Brainstorms, 2-3x Jaces, it seems like Thief would work wonders and near-guaranteed easy draws/counter-draws. Yes, they still have to play their draw spells, and you have to be ready for it, but isn't that the same for other cards of this nature (well ok, this thing needs 4 feking mana...)? Thief to stop Visions looks doable. I mean, yeah you won't be able to make a play turn 4. But do you really need to, given the particular colors? Those colors can usually hold its own and control the gamestate those first 3 turns. And your turn 4 play is basically drop Thief, draw 3 -- when Visions is only on 1 counter, they HAVE to remove the last one and cast the card.
That said, I agree like, 89.46% that the card won't see much play, as 1) Sideboard card at best, 2) You never really want him that badly even in the side 3) His applications are like, in a few match-ups and only in those match-ups 4) 3/1 Non-flying body in a color not really the best at aggression. And outside the 3 power for potential trades, Thief isn't very good at playing defense 5) 4 cmc. Pretty large hindrance; expensive and loss of tempo, unless you get the draws (bolted/plowed/Darkblasted makes it a super waste of a turn and to that extent a sideboard slot)...but at the same time somewhat workable. *somewhat....*
I don't know, I feel like it's a monster of a card. But too awkward to reliably run. It's kinda weird. Basically, I think we agree. It's just one of those cards that trolls you really hard if they drop it right in some really dumb situation...almost as bad as the time someone was playing Esper Deathblade (but it seemed *really* derpy), and they dropped Sigarda on me game 2. My hand had 2 Swords to Plowshares. I was like, "seriously?" -_- Sided out my Verdict and FoW, as it was mostly attrition match, and I didn't think I'd need a board wipe; game 1 I was able to deal with each creature one at a time without any trouble. Proceeded to lose g2 and won g3. It was funny/fun though.
Tl;dr: I agree that it's not something to actively worry about.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Started playing Shardless BUG and quite frankly its awesome. I placed well at a small local FNM but I was wondering what your guys thoughts are about the DnT match up. I lost to a player in swiss but beat him in top 4 when I left FoW in (not sure if this is the correct move or not but it netted better results, mom is just too hard to interact with). It seemed like a very tough match up almost in the realm of 30/70 in their favor.
I ended up losing to dredge in the finals because I only saw 1 of my SB cards (a single spell pierce). Obviously the combo match up isn't great, but I definitely felt like I could have won the post board games.
I'm considering dropping 2 Hymns in my shardless BUG main board for 2 lilianas. I'm worried that my casacdes will be much less consistent, though Liliana main will no doubt strengthen a ton of other match ups. Can anyone comment on the matter?
Also anyone running Leylines instead of Nihil Spellbomb or can comment on the matter, my instinct says Leyline would be worse unless you're running 4, in which case I don't have 4 slots to dedicate to GY hate.
I was playing lilianas sideboard for a fair amount of time, but switched 2 to the main for some removal as her edict ability makes up for that. I found myself before the switch sometimes wanting another threat, and in a lot of match ups she is a must answer card which draws all your opponents focus letting your other cards take over the game a lot easier. And is you get lily and Jace on a fairly empty board it's pretty much gg.
My meta is filled with a lot of rogue decks and 'fair' decks, so tonight at a small tourney I'm trying out a list without Force of Will MD as I'm not a huge fan of the card, but it's a necessary evil for the format as some spells win on the spot. I've got the full set in the board along with other disruption for combo, but in their place (I had 3 MD) I've added a third Baleful Strix, a third Hymn to Tourach and a third Thoughtseize (this should possibly be a four of, and cut down to two hymns).
From the top of my head, my list looks a bit like this at the moment:
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Standard: Mono Red Blitz
Modern: Hatebears and Dredgevine
Legacy: UG Madness and The Mighty Quinn
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Edit; baleful strix has been MUCH better than I anticipated as well. On alot of fair MU hymn is an abysmal top deck when all you need to do to stabilize is deal with on board threats. Liliana and strix are both fairly good for this if the deck didn't already have so many blank or subpar cards game 1 vs combo I'm pretty sure I'd kick all the hymns to SB for 4 strix 2 liliana lineup. But for now baby steps as always hymn is an amazing turn 2-4 play it just seems weaker after that 2 might be the right number DRS into liliana when your opponent drops a t1 creature is just brutal.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
I've been playing the following list:
4 Jace TMS
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Worm Harvest
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 E.E.
1 Darkblast
3 LftL
4 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacomb
2 Misty Rainforest
Its based off BUGstill. I don't like Standstill, though, so I cut that and relied on the other cards in the deck for card advantage.
[180 classic cube]
as ive stated before, strix is a deck allstar imo, though ive seen many successful lists running 2x recently.
something i am curious in is the 22 land count as of late, how are people liking that? I currently am at 23, but dropping a land for more spells might be a better call. Currently i run a little land heavy because i run sub-optimal Vinelasher Kudzu over goyf due to my lack of goyf funds. (heres hoping modern masters drop his price by about 20 bucks a pop)
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Wasteland: 2 does seem to be the magic number as of late. I think i will drop 1, go down to 3 wastelands, and see where that puts me.
I want to drop deed from my list as well, and pick up some maelstrom pulses to fill the open 2 slots ill have (-1 waste, -1 deed).
I enjoy having 4 hymns, due to the devastating effect a turn 2 hymn into a turn 3 hymn (or better yet, hymn off a cascade on turn 3). I dont think i'll part with them, especially since i lack targeted discard in my main deck.
i ONLY run the plants because i cant afford goyf. simple as that. i'd love to replace them. as you stated, i will be getting goyfs 1 by 1. Gotta take my time though. cant run out and get them. im thinking i'll pick 1 up if i see it hit 90, and move from there.
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Josh
You deck sounds more like a team america hybrid moreso than a shardless agent or bug control build.
Something i love about the BUG shell is how mutable it is with cards. I could play raw control tomorrow, swap out 8 cards and become team america and then swap out another 8 and become shardless bug.
Congrats on the top 8 man. Do you have a play by play report on your tourney climb?
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
Between Swords to Plowshares, Terminus, and Karakas, not to mention countermagic, U/W/x Control decks have tons of outs to depths tokens.
Aggro decks have Wasteland and sometimes Stifle, plus again countermagic.
Against combo, this is a t4 kill at the earliest, which is often a bit too slow, especially as it applies little other pressure.
Currently Playing:
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not to mention her evasion is not a win con, considering lingering souls buys them 4 turns. i dont think its a wise win cond at all
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
Thanks for the recap.
The idea with Ancestral are the following reasons:
1) We are greedy with this deck. we want cool interactions and we are chasing the dragon in hopes of catching a cascade into it.
2) We carry 3-4 jace, 4 brainstorm. If we top deck it we can always pitch it back in or in really fortuitous situations, set up our cascade.
3) Its actually a fantastic turn 1 play. A good opponent will plan to counter it, but to us, thats as if they threw away 1-2 cards in hand with a minor choice, making it essentially a turn 1 hymn to as they cling to their counter magic. If they dont, when we reach into mid game, we hit a draw 4 cards reload, which is amazingly powerful.
4) in the event that its sitting in hand, its not gaining us any ground, and we draw into it mid-late game without a way to shuffle it back in, we can still pitch it to force of will. If we shift to disfigure and thoughtseize, we lose out on 4 more blue cards in the deck. we dont want to get caught pitching strix or agent to force, and that leaves us brainstorm and jace as our other blue cards.
All that said, ive heard from several people claiming success. I have been playing the deck for about 3 months now, put it together late january because i got tired of reanimator combo with a SnT sideboard. In my experience, Strix is the deck's unsung all star, but i strongly feel ancestral is a clutch card as well.
In the coming months where punishing fire seems to grow in popularity, i think reloading your hand will become more and more important.
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
excellent idea.
now to acquire a set...
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
Currently Playing and/or Building:
Legacy:
BUG Shardless BUG BUG
BUG Team America BUG
UBRG Cabal ANT UBRG
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Baleful Strix
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Sinkhole
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
Though I do agree for the most part with this, I do find that it seems...particularly easy to screw over people's Ancestral Visions, as you can see it (Visions) coming a mile away and will have time to prep for it. Seems like it at least...
the problem with notion thief is that his effect is incredible, but you have to take into account his cost. you have to pass on turn 4 without accomplishing anything on the hope that they are prepping for a brainstorm. Yes, its a massive and incredible swing if it lands, but i just cant imagine him being worth it. He's a side board card at best imo, and what sb card are you going to drop to replace him with?
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
I just feel like he's a card that, should BUG and its variants become popular enough to where people start trying to actively super-hate it, he'd be THAT guy; as with 3-4x Visions, 4x Brainstorms, 2-3x Jaces, it seems like Thief would work wonders and near-guaranteed easy draws/counter-draws. Yes, they still have to play their draw spells, and you have to be ready for it, but isn't that the same for other cards of this nature (well ok, this thing needs 4 feking mana...)? Thief to stop Visions looks doable. I mean, yeah you won't be able to make a play turn 4. But do you really need to, given the particular colors? Those colors can usually hold its own and control the gamestate those first 3 turns. And your turn 4 play is basically drop Thief, draw 3 -- when Visions is only on 1 counter, they HAVE to remove the last one and cast the card.
That said, I agree like, 89.46% that the card won't see much play, as 1) Sideboard card at best, 2) You never really want him that badly even in the side 3) His applications are like, in a few match-ups and only in those match-ups 4) 3/1 Non-flying body in a color not really the best at aggression. And outside the 3 power for potential trades, Thief isn't very good at playing defense 5) 4 cmc. Pretty large hindrance; expensive and loss of tempo, unless you get the draws (bolted/plowed/Darkblasted makes it a super waste of a turn and to that extent a sideboard slot)...but at the same time somewhat workable. *somewhat....*
I don't know, I feel like it's a monster of a card. But too awkward to reliably run. It's kinda weird. Basically, I think we agree. It's just one of those cards that trolls you really hard if they drop it right in some really dumb situation...almost as bad as the time someone was playing Esper Deathblade (but it seemed *really* derpy), and they dropped Sigarda on me game 2. My hand had 2 Swords to Plowshares. I was like, "seriously?" -_- Sided out my Verdict and FoW, as it was mostly attrition match, and I didn't think I'd need a board wipe; game 1 I was able to deal with each creature one at a time without any trouble. Proceeded to lose g2 and won g3. It was funny/fun though.
Tl;dr: I agree that it's not something to actively worry about.
I ended up losing to dredge in the finals because I only saw 1 of my SB cards (a single spell pierce). Obviously the combo match up isn't great, but I definitely felt like I could have won the post board games.
Also anyone running Leylines instead of Nihil Spellbomb or can comment on the matter, my instinct says Leyline would be worse unless you're running 4, in which case I don't have 4 slots to dedicate to GY hate.
From the top of my head, my list looks a bit like this at the moment:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Shardless Agent
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Baleful Strix
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil
4x Ancestral Vision
4x Brainstorm
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Thoughtseize
3x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
3x Wasteland
12x fetchlands
There should a Maelstrom Pulse in all honesty, but I don't own one at the moment :s