in a discard strategy, hymn would really shine. most BUG control lists don't have much discard, though, and there isn't much that people would want to cut for it.
in a discard strategy, hymn would really shine. most BUG control lists don't have much discard, though, and there isn't much that people would want to cut for it.
But... do you need to have a discarding strategy for BB: +1 CA to be good?
I can't speak for what it might replace, but for its raw power I feel it must be considered.
Hymn is awesome but better paired with an aggro followup to capitalize. Honestly in Legacy(here comes the flames) that counterspells as a complementary form of disruption suck. Using counters to protect your position cool. Using them as threat suppression is terrible. Here's why. Counters that are commonly used aside from Force are terribly narrow and may be the wrong stack answer. I never liked that aspect. Answer cards need to be the most flexible. Narrow counters like Spell Snare are good if you NOT only have it in your hand BUT its not always relevant. Whatever end rant. So play discard instead of non Force counters maindeck. Leave Spell Piece in the sideboard. If you want another counter use counterspell. It least it can hit anything. Or even ManaLeak. Hymn and Inquisition are powerhouses. They take cards away and provide hand information. Be proactive more. Use counters to protect your stuff or hurt combo decks.
Hymn is awesome but better paired with an aggro followup to capitalize. Honestly in Legacy(here comes the flames) that counterspells as a complementary form of disruption suck. Using counters to protect your position cool. Using them as threat suppression is terrible. Here's why. Counters that are commonly used aside from Force are terribly narrow and may be the wrong stack answer. I never liked that aspect. Answer cards need to be the most flexible. Narrow counters like Spell Snare are good if you NOT only have it in your hand BUT its not always relevant. Whatever end rant. So play discard instead of non Force counters maindeck. Leave Spell Piece in the sideboard. If you want another counter use counterspell. It least it can hit anything. Or even ManaLeak. Hymn and Inquisition are powerhouses. They take cards away and provide hand information. Be proactive more. Use counters to protect your stuff or hurt combo decks.
I haven't posted in this thread yet but this deck has sparked my interest. Seems like some of my old Landstill friends are looking at this. God I loved that deck...but let's face it, BUG Control is what's hot/projects to actually have a gameplan over the next few months.
Raze, we've gone back and forth in the past theory crafting and you always raise great arguments. It's taken me a while but I think you nailed it regarding counterspells. For the most part, countermagic from a control deck's sake of 'countermagic' is just not cutting it.
Magic has evolved so that THIS old plan won't work:
(a) opponent plays creature T1
(b) you try to counter/remove it
(a) drops threats consistently for rest of game
(b) you try to respond by dropping answer cards for the rest of game
Attrition via countermagic just won't work anymore. The format is too fast. BUG has Deed, which is probably the greatest sweeper in the format aside from EE (which is a strong #2). Deed is better than anything a deck can pack to build x-for-1 situations.
The build up of delver, snapcaster, maverick strategies...pretty much all the 'good stuff' in the format means conventional countermagic-based attrition won't cut it. I think Deed CAN compete with what's out there atm but it's going to be really iffy (theory-debates) with what it takes to compliment that card. Raze, I think your analysis that pro-active prevention a la discard = good assumption. But now let's look at the legit options:
1. Thoughtseize. It's the most versatile card....but it comes at a hefty price at times. How much lifeloss we eat over thru the 'Deed' turn is crucial. I think TS eating cards like Jace or KOTR makes this #1 pick for discard. I'd much rather take away any non-land than take away a limited (sometimes irrelevant) stack.
2. Inquisition. This is the next best thing to TS because it's still versatile. You trade limitations of "grab anything costing 3 or less" with "lose 2 life to grab any non land".
3. Hymn. I honestly see this card as a catch 22. Hymn is best used in the early game to crap on people establishing themselves. I've been victim to it AND I've used it on others. No matter what, the card is doing damage. I don't know if BUG control has enough manipulation to properly use this card because you DON'T want to topdeck this in say...turn 12. You want this as early as possible to do the most damage. An interesting line of play is to T4/5 snapcaster a Hymn back at them. Could be brutal.
What I believe we should do: Run a split of TS with Inquistion. Hymn is probably a valuable SB card against (a) combo...who need cards/sculpting, (b) aggro-control, and (c) tempo...who need every card in their hand.
Countermagic
I'm weird here. I like what Raze says. I'd honestly need to see how my decklist fans out. Force of Will is 3-4x but an increase/high amount of discard will probably come at the expense of key [blue] slots. Can we keep enough blue cards in the deck? For reference, Nicholas Spagnolo has 20 blue cards...3 are FoW. 9 counters total.
As I type this, I would aim to have between 8 and 10 counters. This could be as simple as a 4-3-3 breakdown or more complex like Nick's 3-2-2-2 config. I'd also shoot for "counters everything" rather than "is cheap but counters a niche cardtype" (ie; pierce, snare, etc). Snapcaster is another wrench in the equation. You don't necessarily need him to recur countermagic, but when he does it's awesome.
......
With all I've rambled about, there are some interesting angles/possibilities with the deck in terms of construction. UB Control schemes have interested me for a while. I remember getting crushed by a simple-yet-effective UB rogue list over a year ago. Thing just ate me alive. Dark Confidant COULD be used in our lists, but it would morph the deck to take a very very aggressive edge. If you want to sit back and deed the table, there's a list for you. However, I think you can also forgo some of that approach for an equally effective confidant-speed build.
Confidant + Discard/Removal + Deed/Lili/Jace to finish could conceivably work out
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
A) Most of the time, you won't have Thrun onboard when you're blooding anyway.
B) You don't use Blood when you're on Thrun beatdown.
c) Opt for targeted removal instead of running 4 Innocent Blood.
Besides, Blood can be super awful against Maverick. You try to muck Knight, but instead, you get to hit Noble/Dryad Arbor? Seems awkward. I'd much rather run Ghastly Demise/Deathmark.
Also, it's very easy to run Virtue's Ruin instead of Perish against Maverick as well, considering Ruin is loads better than Perish anyway. Killing Mom and Thalia > Noble Hierarch.
Now, Deed is obviously the reason to play this deck, but the new card Killing Field (or whatever it's called, but I'm calling it Killing Fields since it reminds me of the Khmer Rouge) might be an interesting addition as well. It's a sac effect as well, and is a clock if they want to save any of their guys. Field for X=3 can be a pretty big deterrent for keeping a bunch of little critters on board.
Skeletal Scrying has been something I've wanted to play forever, and I used to play it in Train Wreck. Could be nice to draw infinite cards against those certain matchups, but the life loss doesn't help this deck against the matchups we're already losing due to being glacially slow. I mean, 43 lands is only a bit slower.
-Matt
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm your Huckleberry." - Doc Holliday
"You're like the nicest person on the forum!" -Maicol
I haven't posted in this thread yet but this deck has sparked my interest. Seems like some of my old Landstill friends are looking at this. God I loved that deck...but let's face it, BUG Control is what's hot/projects to actually have a gameplan over the next few months.
Raze, we've gone back and forth in the past theory crafting and you always raise great arguments. It's taken me a while but I think you nailed it regarding counterspells. For the most part, countermagic from a control deck's sake of 'countermagic' is just not cutting it.
Magic has evolved so that THIS old plan won't work:
(a) opponent plays creature T1
(b) you try to counter/remove it
(a) drops threats consistently for rest of game
(b) you try to respond by dropping answer cards for the rest of game
Attrition via countermagic just won't work anymore. The format is too fast. BUG has Deed, which is probably the greatest sweeper in the format aside from EE (which is a strong #2). Deed is better than anything a deck can pack to build x-for-1 situations.
The build up of delver, snapcaster, maverick strategies...pretty much all the 'good stuff' in the format means conventional countermagic-based attrition won't cut it. I think Deed CAN compete with what's out there atm but it's going to be really iffy (theory-debates) with what it takes to compliment that card. Raze, I think your analysis that pro-active prevention a la discard = good assumption. But now let's look at the legit options:
1. Thoughtseize. It's the most versatile card....but it comes at a hefty price at times. How much lifeloss we eat over thru the 'Deed' turn is crucial. I think TS eating cards like Jace or KOTR makes this #1 pick for discard. I'd much rather take away any non-land than take away a limited (sometimes irrelevant) stack.
2. Inquisition. This is the next best thing to TS because it's still versatile. You trade limitations of "grab anything costing 3 or less" with "lose 2 life to grab any non land".
3. Hymn. I honestly see this card as a catch 22. Hymn is best used in the early game to crap on people establishing themselves. I've been victim to it AND I've used it on others. No matter what, the card is doing damage. I don't know if BUG control has enough manipulation to properly use this card because you DON'T want to topdeck this in say...turn 12. You want this as early as possible to do the most damage. An interesting line of play is to T4/5 snapcaster a Hymn back at them. Could be brutal.
What I believe we should do: Run a split of TS with Inquistion. Hymn is probably a valuable SB card against (a) combo...who need cards/sculpting, (b) aggro-control, and (c) tempo...who need every card in their hand.
Countermagic
I'm weird here. I like what Raze says. I'd honestly need to see how my decklist fans out. Force of Will is 3-4x but an increase/high amount of discard will probably come at the expense of key [blue] slots. Can we keep enough blue cards in the deck? For reference, Nicholas Spagnolo has 20 blue cards...3 are FoW. 9 counters total.
As I type this, I would aim to have between 8 and 10 counters. This could be as simple as a 4-3-3 breakdown or more complex like Nick's 3-2-2-2 config. I'd also shoot for "counters everything" rather than "is cheap but counters a niche cardtype" (ie; pierce, snare, etc). Snapcaster is another wrench in the equation. You don't necessarily need him to recur countermagic, but when he does it's awesome.
......
With all I've rambled about, there are some interesting angles/possibilities with the deck in terms of construction. UB Control schemes have interested me for a while. I remember getting crushed by a simple-yet-effective UB rogue list over a year ago. Thing just ate me alive. Dark Confidant COULD be used in our lists, but it would morph the deck to take a very very aggressive edge. If you want to sit back and deed the table, there's a list for you. However, I think you can also forgo some of that approach for an equally effective confidant-speed build.
Confidant + Discard/Removal + Deed/Lili/Jace to finish could conceivably work out
In my eyes, it all depends on the style of play. In Paulo VDdR's article, he shows that there are two types of control decks; Draw-Go and Tapout. I strongly recommend that anyone reading my post reads this article; it is well written and will make what I'm about to say make more sense.
How I've been playing the deck is a Draw-Go style; with some Tapout aspects (liliana turn 3 is not unreasonable). I tend to protect myself from discard and other hazardous things like chalice in the early game, wipe the board, then play liliana and/or jace with counter backup to make sure they can't re-establish their board. Spell pierce is an awesome card in this strategy; almost all of the things i want to deal with in the early game are non-permanents (the rest deed can take care of; chailce i will counter however), and they usually don't have mana to pay the 2. I've up'd my count to 4. Even when I start to win with PWs pierce still comes in handy... only the really really really late game does it start to suck, and by that time my opponent should be about dead anyways. I will board out pierce from time to time when it doesn't pull it's weight, though. But anyways, this Draw-Go version that I play (with 13 counterspells; the list I play is in the last section of the OP, with -1 leak and +1 pulse) does better and better as the game goes on, as it should, if you look at Paulo's graph.
The discard version suggested seems much more like a Tapout version. You aim to get their hand size down to a very low number, drop liliana and/or jace asap, and win; much faster and more effectively than a Draw-Go version. That's a very viable strategy, but as Paulo's graph shows, it will have a much worse late game if things don't go your way. If your opponent is top-decking and so are you, they are going to be playing goyfs and stoneforge mystics while you sit on worthless hymns and seizes. If you were running more counters, at least stuff like snare and leak would be doing stuff for you. Sure, as suggested, this Tapout list would also be running counters, but you would have already wasted so much gas getting to your current board state that stuff like FoW off the top wouldn't be so sexy. With Draw-go, you might have taken more hits and not presented much of a threat/clock, but you should still have half a hand of cards left.
I feel there is no "better" version, unless someone persuades me otherwise. I've not been loosing much with my current discardless Draw-Go version. If "attrition by counters doesn't work" then that wouldn't be the case. I believe I will try more of a Tapout version, or at least one with more discard, and see how it goes, but again I haven't had trouble with my current version.
Lastly, dark confidant in this deck with an aggressive twist is just what it sounds like - not control any more, but tempo. Something along those lines belongs in the team america thread, not here. Playing creatures makes your innocent bloods and deeds conciderably worse. The only creature I dare consider playing in here is clique and snapcaster, but I haven't been running any snapcasters, and only 2-3 cliques in the board.
A) Most of the time, you won't have Thrun onboard when you're blooding anyway.
B) You don't use Blood when you're on Thrun beatdown.
c) Opt for targeted removal instead of running 4 Innocent Blood.
Besides, Blood can be super awful against Maverick. You try to muck Knight, but instead, you get to hit Noble/Dryad Arbor? Seems awkward. I'd much rather run Ghastly Demise/Deathmark.
Also, it's very easy to run Virtue's Ruin instead of Perish against Maverick as well, considering Ruin is loads better than Perish anyway. Killing Mom and Thalia > Noble Hierarch.
Now, Deed is obviously the reason to play this deck, but the new card Killing Field (or whatever it's called, but I'm calling it Killing Fields since it reminds me of the Khmer Rouge) might be an interesting addition as well. It's a sac effect as well, and is a clock if they want to save any of their guys. Field for X=3 can be a pretty big deterrent for keeping a bunch of little critters on board.
Skeletal Scrying has been something I've wanted to play forever, and I used to play it in Train Wreck. Could be nice to draw infinite cards against those certain matchups, but the life loss doesn't help this deck against the matchups we're already losing due to being glacially slow. I mean, 43 lands is only a bit slower.
-Matt
Bloods are only good because you can keep off a little pressure in the early game, by taking out their delver or even hierarch. Then, you let them build up a board, while you are building up a hand full of counters and such, then wipe it clean with a deed. Then blood and liliana once again come in handy, destroying what they play. Liliana and/or jace at this point either get your opponent down to zero cards in hand, or swamp them in card advantage and counterspells, respectively. If things don't go your way, just deed again and repeat.
Thrun is just awkward for this deck... he makes deed slightly worse, and is pretty bad when your opponent has a 6/7 goyf. You would want to play blood at that point, but it kills thrun too... he just isn't what I would want as part of my 60.
AVR's Killing Wave is bad for the same reason browbeat is bad in burn.. it gives your opponent options. They might choose to sac a couple small dudes but they will be fine paying 10 life to keep their huge monsters on the field. Besides, this deck doesn't win by damage (with small exceptions), so the life loss wouldn't matter. On top of that, you would have spend a boat-load of mana to make this even close to relevant.
Skeletal scrying grabbed my interest too; but in the end I feel the life loss is just too relevant.
I think if I was going to play confidant in this deck I would go with the 9-yards of 4 delvers, goyfs, and etc but then the deck would be BUG delver and not BUG control. So in other words, if I wanted another win condition I would probably play batterskull since it's an recurring threat. Sure, people play with artifact hate but it's not like they will always see a batterskull coming especially from a deck that doesn't even play with stoneforge mystic.
I tested a list out with discard. I wasn't impressed. It was really hard to get blue cards to pitch to FoW. I played 2 matches, and the discard was sweet at the beginning but then they just became annoying draws.
Could be just unlucky, but I think I like my list better.
Btw, Kevin, you can change my list in the OP... I figured I needed a better way to kill stoneblade's equipment, so it's -1 mana leak, +1 maelstrom pulse. Also, in the side, it's -1 clique, +1 maelstrom pulse.
Yeah, I made the changes, maelstrom pulse is definitely pretty good right now I just wish it hit lands as well but you can't have everything you want. Also, just to let you know that I won't always have time to update your decklist unless it's some major change to your decklist that also has been working well for you in either hours playtesting and/or tournament play.
I think I am going to try to add some general sideboarding strategies to Nick's build in the opening post later this week or the next. Not sure when but I will definitely try to get some free time.
First off, thank you Warden for the complimentary words, likewise. We all know this is a draw-go deck, thats apparent. And thats fine and I played it as such for awhile now. What I am saying is:
If your playing additional countermagic in the maindeck aside from Force it should be as flexible as possible. That means Counterspell and or Mana Leak. The reason being that a Draw-Go deck that isnt pure MUC has removal, and having the removal makes narrow maindeck counterspells a waste of space. Narrow counters aside from being less flexible, get worse as the game goes long.....oh yeah, like this slow grindy control deck. Counterspell in particular maintains its flexibility throughout the gamestate meaning its a superior control card.
Wardens other pints are equally valid. Legacy is fast. You can be a Draw-Go deck thats fine. What you need is apparent. Solid answers, powerful card advantage engines, library manipulation, a powerful sweeper and superior win conditions. However, even still playing the wait and respond game while effective is tough in Legacy. Its because threats are so good on their own and resilient, relying on counter that, kill that, deed the board, win with Jace is a formula that can work but has gotten more difficult.
I do like draw-go deed control. And it is good. But some lists need help, and just copying Nicks deck and trying to apply it everywhere is well, asking for a beating. I dont like alot of the elements........but thats another story, he won so I wont invite flames. Here's my build so everyone can beat me over the head.......my Draw-Go version anyway:
I personally think you should play with some form in engineered explosives if you want to consistently live long enough to draw cards off of your visions but that's just my opinion since pulse doesn't actually hit mongoose while EE does and it's another out to shroud creatures besides deed + innocent blood.
Also, if your metagame is full of burn, a x number of kitchen finks, and blue elemental blasts seems like it could be decent in the sideboard. While leyline of sancitity can also be relevant too against burn and possibly even RUG threshold.
First off, thank you Warden for the complimentary words, likewise. We all know this is a draw-go deck, thats apparent. And thats fine and I played it as such for awhile now. What I am saying is:
If your playing additional countermagic in the maindeck aside from Force it should be as flexible as possible. That means Counterspell and or Mana Leak. The reason being that a Draw-Go deck that isnt pure MUC has removal, and having the removal makes narrow maindeck counterspells a waste of space. Narrow counters aside from being less flexible, get worse as the game goes long.....oh yeah, like this slow grindy control deck. Counterspell in particular maintains its flexibility throughout the gamestate meaning its a superior control card.
Wardens other pints are equally valid. Legacy is fast. You can be a Draw-Go deck thats fine. What you need is apparent. Solid answers, powerful card advantage engines, library manipulation, a powerful sweeper and superior win conditions. However, even still playing the wait and respond game while effective is tough in Legacy. Its because threats are so good on their own and resilient, relying on counter that, kill that, deed the board, win with Jace is a formula that can work but has gotten more difficult.
I do like draw-go deed control. And it is good. But some lists need help, and just copying Nicks deck and trying to apply it everywhere is well, asking for a beating. I dont like alot of the elements........but thats another story, he won so I wont invite flames. Here's my build so everyone can beat me over the head.......my Draw-Go version anyway:
I don't see why the counters one plays have to be so open. I find mana leak and counterspell to be very slow, and pierce/snare to be amazing. When they are no longer amazing, pitch them to force, shuffle away with brainstorm, etc. In the early game, when they are on the play and drop SFM fetching batterskull, you are going to wish you had snare. Same with when they are trying to play chalice on turn 2 on the play or seize turn 1 on the draw; pierce is very important. And it tends to keep being important later into the game than you'd think.
Your list I isn't the type I was referring to, though I do have constructive criticisms. I was referring to the suggested idea of replacing some counters with discard. And I most certainly don't play Nick's list... I think it's awful. You can find my list in the last section of the OP.
As for your list, I really don't like the lack of counters, nor the addition of vision/fiction. But I guess that if we disagree, we disagree. No mishra's factorys makes my eyes bleed, however. I strongly recommend cutting a tropical, an underground, and a wasteland for 3 factories. I also don't like tar pit; my reasoning you can find on the first page of the thread.
Other than that and some other mild changes I would make, I approve.
OK we disagree. I don't think spell Pierce is amazing in a slow deck. Pitched to force or shuffle away are terrible counterarguments because I prefer more flexibility than narrow counters maindeck. I'd rather play 4 counterspells or mana leaks than spell snare or Pierce. I used to run factories but I prefer wastelands and I don't want more than 4 coroless mana sources. Ancestral vision is slow but its one of the better draw go cards. Same with fact or fiction. Slow but guess what the deck is a late game strategy Ans needs raw cardboard advantage not just virtual card advantage from snappy etc. Drawing more cards replaces lost resources and provides more ways to handle the opponent and provides options. Recently I've found I don't like Liliana since it makes me want to tap out turn 3 which is terrible. If I wait she is only good post deed and then Jace is better. So she's coming out. Ill replace her with engineered explosives as a 1-2 of and a Singleton of something else maybe a batterskull LOL ill see. Hey like everyone I'm trying. I'm just offering my thoughts and results with a hardcore draw go card advantage machine.
Perhaps with the lack of countermagic Razefire has means that he's pushing for more removal and being able to draw into more removal with the addition of ancestral visions + the singleton Fact or fiction. I definitely like this concept against the more aggressive decks like RUG Thresh since it seems like it was everywhere in almost every major tournament of Legacy for the last few months or so. Just my thoughts though.
Edit: I am not saying that RUG threshold/RUG Delver/RUG Tempo Thresh is a bad matchup though considering I usually beat it with Nick's BUG control build.
OK we disagree. I don't think spell Pierce is amazing in a slow deck. Pitched to force or shuffle away are terrible counterarguments because I prefer more flexibility than narrow counters maindeck. I'd rather play 4 counterspells or mana leaks than spell snare or Pierce. I used to run factories but I prefer wastelands and I don't want more than 4 coroless mana sources. Ancestral vision is slow but its one of the better draw go cards. Same with fact or fiction. Slow but guess what the deck is a late game strategy Ans needs raw cardboard advantage not just virtual card advantage from snappy etc. Drawing more cards replaces lost resources and provides more ways to handle the opponent and provides options. Recently I've found I don't like Liliana since it makes me want to tap out turn 3 which is terrible. If I wait she is only good post deed and then Jace is better. So she's coming out. Ill replace her with engineered explosives as a 1-2 of and a Singleton of something else maybe a batterskull LOL ill see. Hey like everyone I'm trying. I'm just offering my thoughts and results with a hardcore draw go card advantage machine.
Yah, no disrespect intended; we just have different views, I guess. Though I'm not sure what your list can do against discard, which seems like a big disadvantage.
And with you only running 5 counterspells in the whole deck (3 of which can be played for free) I don't see why tapping out for Liliana is bad. Almost your whole deck is sorcerys and permanents, with the exception of BS, FoF, and two removal spells (and the counters of course). That doesn't seem like "Draw-Go" to me in the first place, though I'm sure it does have a good late game.
In any case, Liliana has been an all-star for me; the repeated innocent bloods have been very important to protect Jace and myself; and the discard is hugely relevant... similar to Jace, she can put them in a brutal soft-lock. Quite frankly I think my matchups vs. mavrick and RUG tempo would fall from 60% to 50% or less without her.
But hey, we all are trying, as you said. I too am just offering my thoughts and results.
Perhaps with the lack of countermagic Razefire has means that he's pushing for more removal and being able to draw into more removal with the addition of ancestral visions + the singleton Fact or fiction. I definitely like this concept against the more aggressive decks like RUG Thresh since it seems like it was everywhere in every major tournament of Legacy.
Edit: Not saying that RUG threshold/RUG Delver/RUG Tempo Thresh is a bad matchup though considering I usually beat it with Nick's BUG control build.
Right, I can see that, but as you said, RUG tempo / mavrick / creature decks are actually pretty good MUs to begin with. All I see this extra removal doing is making combo/control MUs worse.
Yeah, we are here to find out what is the optimal build of BUG control to play in this environment if there is a such a thing. Everyone does have their own playstyle when it comes to playing control and so I am sure they all can work well since it fits our playstyles. So there are possibly numerous differentiating BUG control lists that we find to our liking and being able to play our own takes on BUG control comfortably.
Fair enough. I guess what it comes down to for me is I don't really think a heavy counterspell version is very good. I know the typical counter setup. Force/spell snare/counterspell. Typically 2 counterspells. And if you prefer that or more that's fine. I do think the deck needs draw power for the late game. Maybe I'm too old school its possible. I'm just not digging late game ponders and snaps with jacestorming as a replacement for just card drawing spells (not filtering).
Nothing wrong with being old school to be honest, I think it's one of the reasons why we play competitive magic IMO. I even go old school like the time I almost won a magic-league legacy trial with MUC when mental misstep first made an appearance and the deck happened to have like 4 Fact or fictions in it which the streamlined Athen's Blue deck didn't. I was just lucky and very happy to play against 3 BUG aggro-control decks that ran a couple of thruns but managed to win against each of them since they couldn't draw a Thrun. I was glad that God let me play magic since I didn't have any outs to a thrun except hibernation in the board.
Heh, even RUG Thresh has kind of went back to old school with playing nimble mongoose but that's what happens when the metagame is full of stps + snapcasters and as well as there is Punishing Fire + grove. Going back to the old school ways is just another way to adapt to the current environment. I mean, even sulfur elemental sees a ton of play in RUG Thresh sideboards and that's definitely an old school card but a effective tech against the million maverick decks and also stoneforge decks with lingering souls.
Fair enough. I guess what it comes down to for me is I don't really think a heavy counterspell version is very good. I know the typical counter setup. Force/spell snare/counterspell. Typically 2 counterspells. And if you prefer that or more that's fine. I do think the deck needs draw power for the late game. Maybe I'm too old school its possible. I'm just not digging late game ponders and snaps with jacestorming as a replacement for just card drawing spells (not filtering).
If you look at my list, I run zero ponders, zero snapcasters, and not the largest counter package in the world (2 leak, 3 snare, 4 pierce, 4 fow). I definitely get where you are coming from on a heavy counterspell version being bad, but I don't see my list as a "heavy" counterspell list.
I don't see a problem with jacestorming, though. It's one of his best abilities... drawing a bunch of extra cards and countering/removing whatever they play until their hand is close to zero and you can fateseal.
Lastly, as a side note, one reason why I like mana leak over counterspell though is because of liliana and pulse; you don't want to be fetching up duals all the time in the early game due to wasteland being so prevalent.
I must say that I am very pleased that a proper 'BUG Control' thread has been started. I am a little curious but I've seen lists called 'Pernicious Jace' and they seem to be the same deck.
In any case, I have been playing this deck since snapcaster came out and I've stumbled with my decklists. I began playing this deck as a MB control deck with no creatures and a full set of Innocent Bloods and then SB'ed into Team America with Goyfs and Cliques. I must say that this approach was horrible and made the deck unfocused.
I currently have a straight up control list running 2 Snapcasters and 4 Factories as my only creatures. (I'm trying not running wastelands and increasing the number of basics in my build... been ruined by timely wastelands a lot in my tourney experience)
I will edit this post to include my actual deck list, but for now I just have a couple of things to ask about the deck and a few points to contribute to the thread.
First of all, I understand that drawing multiple cards and proper CA is key to a good control deck. I tried running standstills when I first started playing and have since dropped them because I felt like they never came out before the opponent had a viable threat in play. I found that despite the necessity of card advantage, card quality is almost as important. BUG control has extremely good answers for the various 'top' decks running around. (SFM, Thresh, Maverick) Deed has been a clear MVP except when I face the combo decks that have been popping up in my meta. Being able to clear the field for Jace and Liliana has been my most consistent win condition. I often had trouble searching for the proper answers in my deck until I started using a misers Lim-Dul's Vault to go along with the Brainstorms, Ponders and Jaces that fuel the deck. The ability to fix your next five draws paired with the numerous fetchlands allows you get exactly what you need at the cost of 1*X life.
I have also started playing a misers copy of Noxious Revival as a way to rebuy Jaces and Deeds. It works well with snapcaster and Life from the Loam as well. Though the best use i've had for it so far is to screw up the GY of a Reanimator or Dredge player. (Returning their Reanimate target or their Dredger always feels great)
Another quirky addition I've made to the deck is to MD 2 Surgical extractions. I added these for my Meta because of the combo match ups. It also never hurts to permanently remove a cracked wasteland or other important cards that have either died, countered or were discarded thanks to Thoughtseize.
After numerous playtests, I can say that BUG control is very viable in the current meta. I have yet to lose to a Maverick deck and have won a high percentage of my SFM matchups. (maybe 65-35)
The only problem with it in my opinion is that I feel like I auto-scoop to burn. I'm not sure if Blue Elemental Blasts are enough. I picked up a few Chills to try and make the match up better but I have yet to try it out yet. I also thought about trying Zuran Orb to go along with 2 LftL but that'll be for future playtest sessions.
Has anyone had any success with Burn using this deck? What do you guys think about the cards I mentioned?
I'm very sorry for the long post, but I hope I added something substantial to this thread's discussion. Hopefully, we see this deck reach Tier 1 soon.
I don't have much to say to the rest of your post, EnzB, until i see your list (though i think it will look so abstract i still won't know what to say); however, i can at least tell you that burn is un-winnable unless you do what i did.
my list is in the last section of the primer; i'm sure you can figure out the disgusting step i took to beat burn. the good part is that i can actually consistently beat burn now in a 2/3 by taking that little step... and the drawback of opposing wastelands hasn't really effected me much.
Chill. Its pretty much the best option out there. The match is atrocious, so if you think you might see alot of Burn, maybe some lifegain the sideboard to compliment Chills.
I like the noxious revival technology, kinda lke my lone Eternal Witness, but free lol. I forgot about that card.
I reoriented my list again to add more counterspells but I still need Ancestral Visions to make up for all the 1 for 1 trades. New list:
Ive tried different configurations for the sideboard, but this has been a bit better for the last few days, especially Negate has pulled its weight well. I have a little trouble with 6 colorless lands versus opposing Wastelands, but Life makes it more manageable. I had a Bayou but it came out for the 3/3 split of Mishra's Factory/Wasteland. I still do like Ancestral Visions as I like the fact it can refuel my hand when it gets low, and in combination with Jace is great draw power.
It seems pretty solid Raze. I still am not a fan of Ancestral visions in this deck but there is nothing wrong with adding more card draw into the deck if you feel that you need it which by the sound of it it's definitely an important card for your build Raze. I love the negates in the board too, they are definitely relevant when you board them in.
On another note, I just added two more decklists to the opening post and Tomathan88 I tried adding your BUG control banner to the opening post but it won't let me for some reason. I think you should ask Warden or another mod to help you add the banner to the opening post if you want to see the banner. I am personally fine with not having a banner but then again I am used to just all text in a primer as I really like the descriptive aspect of primers that grasp people's attention to play the decks. But yeah if you want your banner up on the opening post you should just have a moderator edit it in as I don't know how to add the banner.
@raze: I do like your list better this time around, though I too am not a fan of visions, and liliana missing makes me sad. But other than that, I like it.
Regarding chill, it is plain awful. Against burn, it only really helps if it comes down turn 2 (which most likely isn't going to happen). If it comes down any later than that, you are probably already at something like 10 or less life, and they won't mind spending 3 mana to bolt you to death, or 2 mana to fireblast you.
Running CoP:R has been wonderful for me; the tundra isn't much of a drawback; if anything it's helped confuse my opponent. When CoP:R comes down against burn, it wins, even if it's turn 3 or 4 or even 5 (my spell pierces help keep the game going a little longer).
@kevin: all you have to do is click "reply" to my PM, and then copy all of the text and paste it in your primer. it's not difficult. i did about an hour of work on it last night, on just the text, so i'd really appreciate if you used some of it. just be sure to read the red parts and then delete them afterwards.
Eh, well, I tried copying and pasting the primer with the banner and it still didn't work.
As for chill, I personally prefer blue elemental blast myself for the same decks. I have always been a fan of blue blast since the days of when Goblins was the best deck in Legacy(Which was quite a long time ago but still I think blue blast is still pretty relevant).
Edit: I just added Razefire's most updated list to the opening post of this thread.
But... do you need to have a discarding strategy for BB: +1 CA to be good?
I can't speak for what it might replace, but for its raw power I feel it must be considered.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
I haven't posted in this thread yet but this deck has sparked my interest. Seems like some of my old Landstill friends are looking at this. God I loved that deck...but let's face it, BUG Control is what's hot/projects to actually have a gameplan over the next few months.
Raze, we've gone back and forth in the past theory crafting and you always raise great arguments. It's taken me a while but I think you nailed it regarding counterspells. For the most part, countermagic from a control deck's sake of 'countermagic' is just not cutting it.
Magic has evolved so that THIS old plan won't work:
(a) opponent plays creature T1
(b) you try to counter/remove it
(a) drops threats consistently for rest of game
(b) you try to respond by dropping answer cards for the rest of game
Attrition via countermagic just won't work anymore. The format is too fast. BUG has Deed, which is probably the greatest sweeper in the format aside from EE (which is a strong #2). Deed is better than anything a deck can pack to build x-for-1 situations.
The build up of delver, snapcaster, maverick strategies...pretty much all the 'good stuff' in the format means conventional countermagic-based attrition won't cut it. I think Deed CAN compete with what's out there atm but it's going to be really iffy (theory-debates) with what it takes to compliment that card. Raze, I think your analysis that pro-active prevention a la discard = good assumption. But now let's look at the legit options:
1. Thoughtseize. It's the most versatile card....but it comes at a hefty price at times. How much lifeloss we eat over thru the 'Deed' turn is crucial. I think TS eating cards like Jace or KOTR makes this #1 pick for discard. I'd much rather take away any non-land than take away a limited (sometimes irrelevant) stack.
2. Inquisition. This is the next best thing to TS because it's still versatile. You trade limitations of "grab anything costing 3 or less" with "lose 2 life to grab any non land".
3. Hymn. I honestly see this card as a catch 22. Hymn is best used in the early game to crap on people establishing themselves. I've been victim to it AND I've used it on others. No matter what, the card is doing damage. I don't know if BUG control has enough manipulation to properly use this card because you DON'T want to topdeck this in say...turn 12. You want this as early as possible to do the most damage. An interesting line of play is to T4/5 snapcaster a Hymn back at them. Could be brutal.
What I believe we should do: Run a split of TS with Inquistion. Hymn is probably a valuable SB card against (a) combo...who need cards/sculpting, (b) aggro-control, and (c) tempo...who need every card in their hand.
Countermagic
I'm weird here. I like what Raze says. I'd honestly need to see how my decklist fans out. Force of Will is 3-4x but an increase/high amount of discard will probably come at the expense of key [blue] slots. Can we keep enough blue cards in the deck? For reference, Nicholas Spagnolo has 20 blue cards...3 are FoW. 9 counters total.
As I type this, I would aim to have between 8 and 10 counters. This could be as simple as a 4-3-3 breakdown or more complex like Nick's 3-2-2-2 config. I'd also shoot for "counters everything" rather than "is cheap but counters a niche cardtype" (ie; pierce, snare, etc). Snapcaster is another wrench in the equation. You don't necessarily need him to recur countermagic, but when he does it's awesome.
......
With all I've rambled about, there are some interesting angles/possibilities with the deck in terms of construction. UB Control schemes have interested me for a while. I remember getting crushed by a simple-yet-effective UB rogue list over a year ago. Thing just ate me alive. Dark Confidant COULD be used in our lists, but it would morph the deck to take a very very aggressive edge. If you want to sit back and deed the table, there's a list for you. However, I think you can also forgo some of that approach for an equally effective confidant-speed build.
Confidant + Discard/Removal + Deed/Lili/Jace to finish could conceivably work out
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
A) Most of the time, you won't have Thrun onboard when you're blooding anyway.
B) You don't use Blood when you're on Thrun beatdown.
c) Opt for targeted removal instead of running 4 Innocent Blood.
Besides, Blood can be super awful against Maverick. You try to muck Knight, but instead, you get to hit Noble/Dryad Arbor? Seems awkward. I'd much rather run Ghastly Demise/Deathmark.
Also, it's very easy to run Virtue's Ruin instead of Perish against Maverick as well, considering Ruin is loads better than Perish anyway. Killing Mom and Thalia > Noble Hierarch.
Now, Deed is obviously the reason to play this deck, but the new card Killing Field (or whatever it's called, but I'm calling it Killing Fields since it reminds me of the Khmer Rouge) might be an interesting addition as well. It's a sac effect as well, and is a clock if they want to save any of their guys. Field for X=3 can be a pretty big deterrent for keeping a bunch of little critters on board.
Skeletal Scrying has been something I've wanted to play forever, and I used to play it in Train Wreck. Could be nice to draw infinite cards against those certain matchups, but the life loss doesn't help this deck against the matchups we're already losing due to being glacially slow. I mean, 43 lands is only a bit slower.
-Matt
Legacy:
Thanks to SGT Chubbs for the sig
In my eyes, it all depends on the style of play. In Paulo VDdR's article, he shows that there are two types of control decks; Draw-Go and Tapout. I strongly recommend that anyone reading my post reads this article; it is well written and will make what I'm about to say make more sense.
How I've been playing the deck is a Draw-Go style; with some Tapout aspects (liliana turn 3 is not unreasonable). I tend to protect myself from discard and other hazardous things like chalice in the early game, wipe the board, then play liliana and/or jace with counter backup to make sure they can't re-establish their board. Spell pierce is an awesome card in this strategy; almost all of the things i want to deal with in the early game are non-permanents (the rest deed can take care of; chailce i will counter however), and they usually don't have mana to pay the 2. I've up'd my count to 4. Even when I start to win with PWs pierce still comes in handy... only the really really really late game does it start to suck, and by that time my opponent should be about dead anyways. I will board out pierce from time to time when it doesn't pull it's weight, though. But anyways, this Draw-Go version that I play (with 13 counterspells; the list I play is in the last section of the OP, with -1 leak and +1 pulse) does better and better as the game goes on, as it should, if you look at Paulo's graph.
The discard version suggested seems much more like a Tapout version. You aim to get their hand size down to a very low number, drop liliana and/or jace asap, and win; much faster and more effectively than a Draw-Go version. That's a very viable strategy, but as Paulo's graph shows, it will have a much worse late game if things don't go your way. If your opponent is top-decking and so are you, they are going to be playing goyfs and stoneforge mystics while you sit on worthless hymns and seizes. If you were running more counters, at least stuff like snare and leak would be doing stuff for you. Sure, as suggested, this Tapout list would also be running counters, but you would have already wasted so much gas getting to your current board state that stuff like FoW off the top wouldn't be so sexy. With Draw-go, you might have taken more hits and not presented much of a threat/clock, but you should still have half a hand of cards left.
I feel there is no "better" version, unless someone persuades me otherwise. I've not been loosing much with my current discardless Draw-Go version. If "attrition by counters doesn't work" then that wouldn't be the case. I believe I will try more of a Tapout version, or at least one with more discard, and see how it goes, but again I haven't had trouble with my current version.
Lastly, dark confidant in this deck with an aggressive twist is just what it sounds like - not control any more, but tempo. Something along those lines belongs in the team america thread, not here. Playing creatures makes your innocent bloods and deeds conciderably worse. The only creature I dare consider playing in here is clique and snapcaster, but I haven't been running any snapcasters, and only 2-3 cliques in the board.
-Tom
EDIT:
Bloods are only good because you can keep off a little pressure in the early game, by taking out their delver or even hierarch. Then, you let them build up a board, while you are building up a hand full of counters and such, then wipe it clean with a deed. Then blood and liliana once again come in handy, destroying what they play. Liliana and/or jace at this point either get your opponent down to zero cards in hand, or swamp them in card advantage and counterspells, respectively. If things don't go your way, just deed again and repeat.
Thrun is just awkward for this deck... he makes deed slightly worse, and is pretty bad when your opponent has a 6/7 goyf. You would want to play blood at that point, but it kills thrun too... he just isn't what I would want as part of my 60.
AVR's Killing Wave is bad for the same reason browbeat is bad in burn.. it gives your opponent options. They might choose to sac a couple small dudes but they will be fine paying 10 life to keep their huge monsters on the field. Besides, this deck doesn't win by damage (with small exceptions), so the life loss wouldn't matter. On top of that, you would have spend a boat-load of mana to make this even close to relevant.
Skeletal scrying grabbed my interest too; but in the end I feel the life loss is just too relevant.
-Tom
Could be just unlucky, but I think I like my list better.
Btw, Kevin, you can change my list in the OP... I figured I needed a better way to kill stoneblade's equipment, so it's -1 mana leak, +1 maelstrom pulse. Also, in the side, it's -1 clique, +1 maelstrom pulse.
I think I am going to try to add some general sideboarding strategies to Nick's build in the opening post later this week or the next. Not sure when but I will definitely try to get some free time.
If your playing additional countermagic in the maindeck aside from Force it should be as flexible as possible. That means Counterspell and or Mana Leak. The reason being that a Draw-Go deck that isnt pure MUC has removal, and having the removal makes narrow maindeck counterspells a waste of space. Narrow counters aside from being less flexible, get worse as the game goes long.....oh yeah, like this slow grindy control deck. Counterspell in particular maintains its flexibility throughout the gamestate meaning its a superior control card.
Wardens other pints are equally valid. Legacy is fast. You can be a Draw-Go deck thats fine. What you need is apparent. Solid answers, powerful card advantage engines, library manipulation, a powerful sweeper and superior win conditions. However, even still playing the wait and respond game while effective is tough in Legacy. Its because threats are so good on their own and resilient, relying on counter that, kill that, deed the board, win with Jace is a formula that can work but has gotten more difficult.
I do like draw-go deed control. And it is good. But some lists need help, and just copying Nicks deck and trying to apply it everywhere is well, asking for a beating. I dont like alot of the elements........but thats another story, he won so I wont invite flames. Here's my build so everyone can beat me over the head.......my Draw-Go version anyway:
3 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Innocent Blood
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 [card[Diabolic[/card]
1 Ghastly Demise
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Life from the Loam
1 Eternal Witness (my recent experimental card)
1 Creeping Tarpit
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
Sideboard:
4 Thoughtseize
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Chill
1 Perish
2 current open slots
Also, if your metagame is full of burn, a x number of kitchen finks, and blue elemental blasts seems like it could be decent in the sideboard. While leyline of sancitity can also be relevant too against burn and possibly even RUG threshold.
I don't see why the counters one plays have to be so open. I find mana leak and counterspell to be very slow, and pierce/snare to be amazing. When they are no longer amazing, pitch them to force, shuffle away with brainstorm, etc. In the early game, when they are on the play and drop SFM fetching batterskull, you are going to wish you had snare. Same with when they are trying to play chalice on turn 2 on the play or seize turn 1 on the draw; pierce is very important. And it tends to keep being important later into the game than you'd think.
Your list I isn't the type I was referring to, though I do have constructive criticisms. I was referring to the suggested idea of replacing some counters with discard. And I most certainly don't play Nick's list... I think it's awful. You can find my list in the last section of the OP.
As for your list, I really don't like the lack of counters, nor the addition of vision/fiction. But I guess that if we disagree, we disagree. No mishra's factorys makes my eyes bleed, however. I strongly recommend cutting a tropical, an underground, and a wasteland for 3 factories. I also don't like tar pit; my reasoning you can find on the first page of the thread.
Other than that and some other mild changes I would make, I approve.
Edit: I am not saying that RUG threshold/RUG Delver/RUG Tempo Thresh is a bad matchup though considering I usually beat it with Nick's BUG control build.
Yah, no disrespect intended; we just have different views, I guess. Though I'm not sure what your list can do against discard, which seems like a big disadvantage.
And with you only running 5 counterspells in the whole deck (3 of which can be played for free) I don't see why tapping out for Liliana is bad. Almost your whole deck is sorcerys and permanents, with the exception of BS, FoF, and two removal spells (and the counters of course). That doesn't seem like "Draw-Go" to me in the first place, though I'm sure it does have a good late game.
In any case, Liliana has been an all-star for me; the repeated innocent bloods have been very important to protect Jace and myself; and the discard is hugely relevant... similar to Jace, she can put them in a brutal soft-lock. Quite frankly I think my matchups vs. mavrick and RUG tempo would fall from 60% to 50% or less without her.
But hey, we all are trying, as you said. I too am just offering my thoughts and results.
-Tom
EDIT:
Right, I can see that, but as you said, RUG tempo / mavrick / creature decks are actually pretty good MUs to begin with. All I see this extra removal doing is making combo/control MUs worse.
-Tom
Heh, even RUG Thresh has kind of went back to old school with playing nimble mongoose but that's what happens when the metagame is full of stps + snapcasters and as well as there is Punishing Fire + grove. Going back to the old school ways is just another way to adapt to the current environment. I mean, even sulfur elemental sees a ton of play in RUG Thresh sideboards and that's definitely an old school card but a effective tech against the million maverick decks and also stoneforge decks with lingering souls.
If you look at my list, I run zero ponders, zero snapcasters, and not the largest counter package in the world (2 leak, 3 snare, 4 pierce, 4 fow). I definitely get where you are coming from on a heavy counterspell version being bad, but I don't see my list as a "heavy" counterspell list.
I don't see a problem with jacestorming, though. It's one of his best abilities... drawing a bunch of extra cards and countering/removing whatever they play until their hand is close to zero and you can fateseal.
Lastly, as a side note, one reason why I like mana leak over counterspell though is because of liliana and pulse; you don't want to be fetching up duals all the time in the early game due to wasteland being so prevalent.
-Tom
In any case, I have been playing this deck since snapcaster came out and I've stumbled with my decklists. I began playing this deck as a MB control deck with no creatures and a full set of Innocent Bloods and then SB'ed into Team America with Goyfs and Cliques. I must say that this approach was horrible and made the deck unfocused.
I currently have a straight up control list running 2 Snapcasters and 4 Factories as my only creatures. (I'm trying not running wastelands and increasing the number of basics in my build... been ruined by timely wastelands a lot in my tourney experience)
I will edit this post to include my actual deck list, but for now I just have a couple of things to ask about the deck and a few points to contribute to the thread.
First of all, I understand that drawing multiple cards and proper CA is key to a good control deck. I tried running standstills when I first started playing and have since dropped them because I felt like they never came out before the opponent had a viable threat in play. I found that despite the necessity of card advantage, card quality is almost as important. BUG control has extremely good answers for the various 'top' decks running around. (SFM, Thresh, Maverick) Deed has been a clear MVP except when I face the combo decks that have been popping up in my meta. Being able to clear the field for Jace and Liliana has been my most consistent win condition. I often had trouble searching for the proper answers in my deck until I started using a misers Lim-Dul's Vault to go along with the Brainstorms, Ponders and Jaces that fuel the deck. The ability to fix your next five draws paired with the numerous fetchlands allows you get exactly what you need at the cost of 1*X life.
I have also started playing a misers copy of Noxious Revival as a way to rebuy Jaces and Deeds. It works well with snapcaster and Life from the Loam as well. Though the best use i've had for it so far is to screw up the GY of a Reanimator or Dredge player. (Returning their Reanimate target or their Dredger always feels great)
Another quirky addition I've made to the deck is to MD 2 Surgical extractions. I added these for my Meta because of the combo match ups. It also never hurts to permanently remove a cracked wasteland or other important cards that have either died, countered or were discarded thanks to Thoughtseize.
After numerous playtests, I can say that BUG control is very viable in the current meta. I have yet to lose to a Maverick deck and have won a high percentage of my SFM matchups. (maybe 65-35)
The only problem with it in my opinion is that I feel like I auto-scoop to burn. I'm not sure if Blue Elemental Blasts are enough. I picked up a few Chills to try and make the match up better but I have yet to try it out yet. I also thought about trying Zuran Orb to go along with 2 LftL but that'll be for future playtest sessions.
Has anyone had any success with Burn using this deck? What do you guys think about the cards I mentioned?
I'm very sorry for the long post, but I hope I added something substantial to this thread's discussion. Hopefully, we see this deck reach Tier 1 soon.
my list is in the last section of the primer; i'm sure you can figure out the disgusting step i took to beat burn. the good part is that i can actually consistently beat burn now in a 2/3 by taking that little step... and the drawback of opposing wastelands hasn't really effected me much.
I like the noxious revival technology, kinda lke my lone Eternal Witness, but free lol. I forgot about that card.
I reoriented my list again to add more counterspells but I still need Ancestral Visions to make up for all the 1 for 1 trades. New list:
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
1 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Smother
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Ghastly Demise
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 [card[Life from the Loam[/card]
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
Sideboard:
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate
2 Chill
1 Perish
2 Negate
Ive tried different configurations for the sideboard, but this has been a bit better for the last few days, especially Negate has pulled its weight well. I have a little trouble with 6 colorless lands versus opposing Wastelands, but Life makes it more manageable. I had a Bayou but it came out for the 3/3 split of Mishra's Factory/Wasteland. I still do like Ancestral Visions as I like the fact it can refuel my hand when it gets low, and in combination with Jace is great draw power.
On another note, I just added two more decklists to the opening post and Tomathan88 I tried adding your BUG control banner to the opening post but it won't let me for some reason. I think you should ask Warden or another mod to help you add the banner to the opening post if you want to see the banner. I am personally fine with not having a banner but then again I am used to just all text in a primer as I really like the descriptive aspect of primers that grasp people's attention to play the decks. But yeah if you want your banner up on the opening post you should just have a moderator edit it in as I don't know how to add the banner.
Regarding chill, it is plain awful. Against burn, it only really helps if it comes down turn 2 (which most likely isn't going to happen). If it comes down any later than that, you are probably already at something like 10 or less life, and they won't mind spending 3 mana to bolt you to death, or 2 mana to fireblast you.
Running CoP:R has been wonderful for me; the tundra isn't much of a drawback; if anything it's helped confuse my opponent. When CoP:R comes down against burn, it wins, even if it's turn 3 or 4 or even 5 (my spell pierces help keep the game going a little longer).
@kevin: all you have to do is click "reply" to my PM, and then copy all of the text and paste it in your primer. it's not difficult. i did about an hour of work on it last night, on just the text, so i'd really appreciate if you used some of it. just be sure to read the red parts and then delete them afterwards.
-Tom
As for chill, I personally prefer blue elemental blast myself for the same decks. I have always been a fan of blue blast since the days of when Goblins was the best deck in Legacy(Which was quite a long time ago but still I think blue blast is still pretty relevant).
Edit: I just added Razefire's most updated list to the opening post of this thread.