Eh, well, I tried copying and pasting the primer with the banner and it still didn't work.
That's just impossible.
I guess you could just look at the red writing, make changes, and then PM it to a mod and ask him to make the changes... strange you can't do it though.
Um, can we just talk about this through PM instead? I don't really want to derail this thread with irrelevant content any further. I am not trying to be offensive but this should really be handled through private messages.
Anyway, back to discussion, Razefire, how has the pair of negates going for you in testing? Also, have you missed Lilianna in your maindeck or if not can you explain why you cut her from the MD?
Chill was pure theory craft. Maybe its wrong. Perhaps blue blast or a life gain option would be better. Liliana is good but she's more of a tapout card turns 3-4. I don't like that it leaves me too vulnerable. After a Deed Jace is tons better because you start fatesealing most times. This is why Ancestral vision is good because its usually resolving by the Tim Jace comes down which allows me to fateseal instead of Jacestorm unless I have too which hasn't happened yet. I had to make as much removal as possible instant speed to synergize with a dominant counterspell game plan. See Jace and Ancestral visions are late game cards that pull you ahead and this is draw go where late game is my goal. So I don't want tapout cards like discard Liliana tempo cards maindeck because they significantly weaken the late game. Negate has been SO good versus my control and combo adversaries. I bring in thoughtseizes vendilion cliques and negates and dominate LOL. So Chill needs to go because I trust your critique plus it makes sense.
Yeah, well, just to be fair Chill does have some merit since it makes fireblasts more expensive and such but sometimes it may come down a bit too late to save you from a lethal burn spell. *Shrugs*
I think I read from a starcity games article somewhere that Lilianna also seems like card disadvantage since to tick her up you will have to discard a card while many times a healthy control deck wants to have a full grip of cards. But in my opinion I still like lilianna in a control deck but I can understand why you cut her Razefire since by the sound of it the only reason to tap out on your turn is to play Jace and that's about it. Which is understandable, considering, you definitely want to play Jace at the best opportunity and tapping out to play Jace can for sure be just one of those opportunities.
Also, by the looks of it, Lilianna is probably worse on the draw then on the play because when you tap out on turn 3 lets say to play lilianna against stoneblade it can open up a window for them to play Jace on their fourth turn which is just backbreaking and you will have to spend much needed resources(mana) to try to remove Jace by activating manlands and then attacking. I have watched Nick a few times on camera at the invitational and he waited until about turn 5 or so to play cards and so he was playing draw-go most of the time. In other words, your card choices and magic theory does make sense Razefire as well.
As a general rule I don't play jace until the board is clear versus creature deck or I have counter backup versus control. Both of these objectives get easier to achieve after sideboard since you have more tools of a similar type to help you. I wish they're was a better option for ancestral vision. I love fact but I can't rock 8 four drops especially in a world where wasteland exists. Think twice and accumulated knowledge were considered but seemed Meg. Out of either accumulated knowledge seemed better since I have lots of card filtering.
Um, can we just talk about this through PM instead? I don't really want to derail this thread with irrelevant content any further. I am not trying to be offensive but this should really be handled through private messages.
it's not really derailing if it is about the primer. plus, at least for this post, i need to show you that it does, in fact, work.
but without the 2 stars (*) in the [center] and [img].
to keep the thread more on topic; liliana isn't card disadvantage. not only does your opponent have to discard as well, but you can gain a huge advantage via life from the loam. returning 3 lands to your hand and then over the course of turns discarding them is a key element to BUGC. she can usually take out several creatures, as well, and that right there makes card advantage, not card disadvantage.
if you have a good card in your hand, just don't use her.
As a general rule I don't play jace until the board is clear versus creature deck or I have counter backup versus control. Both of these objectives get easier to achieve after sideboard since you have more tools of a similar type to help you. I wish they're was a better option for ancestral vision. I love fact but I can't rock 8 four drops especially in a world where wasteland exists. Think twice and accumulated knowledge were considered but seemed Meg. Out of either accumulated knowledge seemed better since I have lots of card filtering.
I meant replacing ancestral vision with four fact or fictions that would be eight four drops including Jace. I've considered it trust me. The reason I don't is because of the cost. But it is an instant and I'd only cast it end of turn. Fact or fiction also pressures other control decks by forcing a counter eot or letting me draw cards. Against other decks casting it eot allows me to either counter/remove/draw cards on my terms and at instant speed. The only time fact or fiction is bad is before turn four but the same goes for Jace. I think I'm just going to go for it and replace ancestral vision with a full set of fact or fictions. I honestly feel this will just be better for my draw go list. On Liliana, yeah she can do that but I'd rather not tap out turn 3-4 and keep counter/removal up. Once deed blasts Jace is just better. I also don't like the need for life from the loam to make Liliana's discard effective. If you do cool but I'm fine without plus like I said she's more tapout and I'm a draw go deck.
once deed blasts, though, i can't see jace being better. how are you supposed to keep your opponent's creatures off of jace at that point? even you don't run that much removal. i much prefer liliana at this point to put them in a soft lock of top decking while liliana has counters, and dropping jace afterward to make the lock even tougher to break. sure, this doesn't happen all the time, but otherwise my opponent can get out of it easier (unless they have no cards in hand; then jace is better, but that doesn't always happen vs. deed).
FoF doesn't seem so amazing. As a 1-of it is interesting, but at a 4-of it seems bad. it's pretty old school; at this point in legacy, there is almost never a time where your opponent isn't dropping a threat... meaning you will usually have to use your counters/removal on it and then you won't be able to play FoF. and if they don't have a hand (which is a hard situation to achieve without liliana) then sure they might not be dropping a threat, but jace would just win in that case.
i like FoF and Visions, but not for the main deck. they seem explicitly for against control. they can help you out sometimes vs. other decks... but there is a reason no one really plays them anymore.
no disrespect intended,
Tom
EDIT: yah matt, you make a point on negate... the same point i'm trying to make with spell pierce. except that pierce is even lighter on mana, so it can stop turn 1 chalice or turn 1 seize. even at like turn 3-5 your opponent doesn't usually have 2 mana open to pay for it.
I know AK generally isn't good anymore, but it's value with Intuition I think is still undeniable, and that only gets better with Snapcaster. And you can also grab LftL and Worm Harvest and/or Raven's Crime to take advantage of playing those cards unlimitedly. Of course, post-board if they have seen these cards, you can always side them out to negate the Surgical Extractions they may have brought in.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
I think the problem with AK + Intuition is that it takes a ton of mana to make this work. Your also diluting your deck as well by casting intuition and then grabbing and dumping AKs with it. I do like the singleton Intuition that Lewis Laskin used in his BUG control deck that got him 20th place at GP indy though. I think it did provide a nice touch to his build(You can find his list on the opening post of this thread.).
it can work, but i'd rather run more protection. the little bit of card advantage this package offers is pretty cool, but it also takes up a bit of slots that can be used for other stuff that in my view is more productive.
i definitely like the idea, but it seems like it could be better used in a much more graveyard oriented deck; not classic BUG control, in my opinion.
These criticisms are probably all true, but let me lay out the reasons I like it. Firstly, it's all instant speed, so each step can be done at the end of the opponent's turn, which allows you to keep Counterspell or creature destruction mana open if necessary. Seconly, the mana required can be split up over turns, so even though it requires 5 mana to Intuition and then AK, or 7 mana to AK twice, you don't have to have 5-7 mana to do it. But the payoff is still there, since 7 mana for 7 cards is a good deal.
Thirdly, AK plays awesomely with Snapcaster. If you get all four in the yard, 4 mana is gonna get you another 4 cards. Fourthly, AK also plays well with Liliana, since you straight up want the first card in the yard anyway.
Fifthly, Intuition also allows you to play a Loam control package, without actually playing Loam control (which sucks right now due to Surgical Extraction). Sixthly, Intuition is also a three-mana tutor for any card you have three or more of in your deck, though I would use this sparingly as it puts the rest of the pieces in the yard. Then again, with Snapcaster Mage this isn't as bad as it could be. Seventhly, the fact that this is a huge card-advantage engine makes me comfortable playing Chrome Mox, which in turn speeds up the deck, which I think is important for a deck based on so many three and four drops.
Of course, this has drawbacks too, mostly the fact that it takes up space in the deck. That alone might make it unplayable. And I'd rather have this in a non-graveyard-based deck, actually, even though that would give you more options with Intuition, because graveyard hate is too ubiquitous right now to be playing that kind of deck, and if you run like a graveyard-based deck game one, you can just side pieces of this out to negate the hate they bring in for games 2 and 3.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
I can see what your trying to say about intuition. Intuition can definitely be relevant in here and fetching for loam, wasteland + something else is flexible and solid. However, BUG control isn't really a loam control deck, it's just a straight up control deck and only really uses loam for some utility here and there while at the sametime it doesn't really depend on the loam engine to make the deck work.
This deck's true power comes from the planeswalkers which the plan is supplemented with both countermagic and removal. Intuition doesn't correlate that much with the deck's mainstream game plan and so if we are to run intuition it will just be another utility spell that we may or may not need.
I used to play intuition + AK all of the time way back in the day in a classic UW control deck and it was actually an draw engine that was definitely needed and so intuition was a big part in the deck for it to succeed as a control deck. However, in BUG control, we already have a ton of flexibility and a much wider spectrum of control cards like deed, lillianna, jace, countermagic, and the list goes on.
Although, if you feel that you need the extra draw power, there is always fact or fiction or Ancestral visions. They both require less design space in a control deck compared to running multiple intuitions while they also net you about the same amount of cards in the long run.
Hey guys; I know I said I didn't like snapcaster from the beginning, but it was really only because he looked anti-synergistic with deed and blood.
I hadn't ever tested with him, so I'm going to give it a try. I moved 1x deed and 1x pierce to the SB, and took out the 2x vendilion clique that haven't been doing much for me (I always seem to want to bring in 'seize over clique). In their place I'm going to try 2x snapcaster. I'll get back to everyone on how it goes in a few days.
I also made a few more changes to the SB, but i'll discuss that more when I perfect my list.
This is fresh from Jupiter's April NELC. I wasn't there but my friend Greg made 3rd with RUG. At the moment I'm not sure what the T8 brackets look like (ie; if this beat my friend Greg playing RUG or not). Some interesting choices here. It should be 75...haven't added it. Literally fresh from Vestal results.
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Dread of Night isn't super-new, but it is a damn good card.
That list has 35 Spells and 19 Land. I'm assuming some number of Underground Seas are missing, not sure what else. Generally looks good, although with all of these lists I always want more Maelstrom Pulses, for extra token-killing ability and general versatility.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
that is the exact same list as Nick's 2nd place invitational list; the scavenging ooze in the SB turned into a 3rd clique though.
yes, 4 underground seas are missing. and if DMel counted right, one other thing; not sure how that works though. i don't see anything he has extra of, but Sam's list doesn't have the 2 pierce Nick's does.
Hey guys! What do you think of Garruk, Primal Hunter as a finisher/Other PW protector ( +1 ability). I know that GGG might be hard to achieve but i was wondering if anybody else have tried him. I would feel more confortable bringing this deck to a legacy tournament with another win con than Jace / Factory. When I'm playing Bug against my friends, it seems to take a lot of time before closing the deal.
Still new to this archetype, but I enjoy it a lot.
Hey guys! What do you think of Garruk, Primal Hunter as a finisher/Other PW protector ( +1 ability). I know that GGG might be hard to achieve but i was wondering if anybody else have tried him. I would feel more confortable bringing this deck to a legacy tournament with another win con than Jace / Factory. When I'm playing Bug against my friends, it seems to take a lot of time before closing the deal.
Still new to this archetype, but I enjoy it a lot.
I Feel the same. I'm using the old time tombstalker as a finisher. Without him thes games can easily slip through my hands.
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Hey guys! What do you think of Garruk, Primal Hunter as a finisher/Other PW protector ( +1 ability). I know that GGG might be hard to achieve but i was wondering if anybody else have tried him. I would feel more confortable bringing this deck to a legacy tournament with another win con than Jace / Factory. When I'm playing Bug against my friends, it seems to take a lot of time before closing the deal.
Still new to this archetype, but I enjoy it a lot.
Adding questionable cards to the deck isn't the correct answer. I suggest you just keep practicing with the deck to get the hang of it. Considering, I always felt that this deck had plenty of win conditions when I would play it. Goodluck.
Edit: As for adding more creatures other then snapcaster mages, I don't see any good reason to unless you are going to cut the innocent bloods but I feel innocent blood is very strong right now due to nimble mongoose being extremely popular. While sure you can play Diabolic edict but I don't want to risk being time walked by a spell snare from a RUG thresh player. Well, at least I have came to that conclusion anyway, I am not sure about the rest of you. Obviously, we are going to have our card choice differences. *Shrugs*
If people want a token generator, go with Garruk Relentless, not Primal Hunter. Not only his Relentless easier to cast, but his abilities are superior. If you run a build with snapcasters, even his second ability on the flip side does something.
But I agree with Kevin. Winning isn't too hard with this deck as it stands. I run a different build than Nick's, however, but still no extra win-cons. I'm currently trying out a slightly altered list though, which might become my actual current one.
That's just impossible.
I guess you could just look at the red writing, make changes, and then PM it to a mod and ask him to make the changes... strange you can't do it though.
Anyway, back to discussion, Razefire, how has the pair of negates going for you in testing? Also, have you missed Lilianna in your maindeck or if not can you explain why you cut her from the MD?
I think I read from a starcity games article somewhere that Lilianna also seems like card disadvantage since to tick her up you will have to discard a card while many times a healthy control deck wants to have a full grip of cards. But in my opinion I still like lilianna in a control deck but I can understand why you cut her Razefire since by the sound of it the only reason to tap out on your turn is to play Jace and that's about it. Which is understandable, considering, you definitely want to play Jace at the best opportunity and tapping out to play Jace can for sure be just one of those opportunities.
Also, by the looks of it, Lilianna is probably worse on the draw then on the play because when you tap out on turn 3 lets say to play lilianna against stoneblade it can open up a window for them to play Jace on their fourth turn which is just backbreaking and you will have to spend much needed resources(mana) to try to remove Jace by activating manlands and then attacking. I have watched Nick a few times on camera at the invitational and he waited until about turn 5 or so to play cards and so he was playing draw-go most of the time. In other words, your card choices and magic theory does make sense Razefire as well.
it's not really derailing if it is about the primer. plus, at least for this post, i need to show you that it does, in fact, work.
all you have to do is copy this text:
[CENTER*][IMG*]http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh58/pokemonuserbarsproject/bugbanner-1.png[/IMG][/CENTER]
but without the 2 stars (*) in the [center] and [img].
to keep the thread more on topic; liliana isn't card disadvantage. not only does your opponent have to discard as well, but you can gain a huge advantage via life from the loam. returning 3 lands to your hand and then over the course of turns discarding them is a key element to BUGC. she can usually take out several creatures, as well, and that right there makes card advantage, not card disadvantage.
if you have a good card in your hand, just don't use her.
-Tom
EDIT:
what are you talking about eight 4-drops?
also, think twice and accumulated knowledge are horrible for legacy.
-Matt
Legacy:
Thanks to SGT Chubbs for the sig
FoF doesn't seem so amazing. As a 1-of it is interesting, but at a 4-of it seems bad. it's pretty old school; at this point in legacy, there is almost never a time where your opponent isn't dropping a threat... meaning you will usually have to use your counters/removal on it and then you won't be able to play FoF. and if they don't have a hand (which is a hard situation to achieve without liliana) then sure they might not be dropping a threat, but jace would just win in that case.
i like FoF and Visions, but not for the main deck. they seem explicitly for against control. they can help you out sometimes vs. other decks... but there is a reason no one really plays them anymore.
no disrespect intended,
Tom
EDIT: yah matt, you make a point on negate... the same point i'm trying to make with spell pierce. except that pierce is even lighter on mana, so it can stop turn 1 chalice or turn 1 seize. even at like turn 3-5 your opponent doesn't usually have 2 mana open to pay for it.
I know AK generally isn't good anymore, but it's value with Intuition I think is still undeniable, and that only gets better with Snapcaster. And you can also grab LftL and Worm Harvest and/or Raven's Crime to take advantage of playing those cards unlimitedly. Of course, post-board if they have seen these cards, you can always side them out to negate the Surgical Extractions they may have brought in.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
i definitely like the idea, but it seems like it could be better used in a much more graveyard oriented deck; not classic BUG control, in my opinion.
Thirdly, AK plays awesomely with Snapcaster. If you get all four in the yard, 4 mana is gonna get you another 4 cards. Fourthly, AK also plays well with Liliana, since you straight up want the first card in the yard anyway.
Fifthly, Intuition also allows you to play a Loam control package, without actually playing Loam control (which sucks right now due to Surgical Extraction). Sixthly, Intuition is also a three-mana tutor for any card you have three or more of in your deck, though I would use this sparingly as it puts the rest of the pieces in the yard. Then again, with Snapcaster Mage this isn't as bad as it could be. Seventhly, the fact that this is a huge card-advantage engine makes me comfortable playing Chrome Mox, which in turn speeds up the deck, which I think is important for a deck based on so many three and four drops.
Of course, this has drawbacks too, mostly the fact that it takes up space in the deck. That alone might make it unplayable. And I'd rather have this in a non-graveyard-based deck, actually, even though that would give you more options with Intuition, because graveyard hate is too ubiquitous right now to be playing that kind of deck, and if you run like a graveyard-based deck game one, you can just side pieces of this out to negate the hate they bring in for games 2 and 3.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
This deck's true power comes from the planeswalkers which the plan is supplemented with both countermagic and removal. Intuition doesn't correlate that much with the deck's mainstream game plan and so if we are to run intuition it will just be another utility spell that we may or may not need.
I used to play intuition + AK all of the time way back in the day in a classic UW control deck and it was actually an draw engine that was definitely needed and so intuition was a big part in the deck for it to succeed as a control deck. However, in BUG control, we already have a ton of flexibility and a much wider spectrum of control cards like deed, lillianna, jace, countermagic, and the list goes on.
Although, if you feel that you need the extra draw power, there is always fact or fiction or Ancestral visions. They both require less design space in a control deck compared to running multiple intuitions while they also net you about the same amount of cards in the long run.
I hadn't ever tested with him, so I'm going to give it a try. I moved 1x deed and 1x pierce to the SB, and took out the 2x vendilion clique that haven't been doing much for me (I always seem to want to bring in 'seize over clique). In their place I'm going to try 2x snapcaster. I'll get back to everyone on how it goes in a few days.
I also made a few more changes to the SB, but i'll discuss that more when I perfect my list.
-Tom
2 Snapcaster Mage
Instants/Sorceries:
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
2 Ponder
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Innocent Blood
1 Darkblast
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Maestrom Pulse
2 Life From the Loam
3 Pernicious Deed
Legendary Enchantments:
1 Night of Soul’s Betrayal
Planeswalkers:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
Basic Land:
1 Island
Non-Basic Land:
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Mishra’s Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Dread of Night
2 Perish
3 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Vindilion Clique
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Raven’s Crime
2 Nature’s Claim
EDIT: Dread of Night is some serious tech.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
That list has 35 Spells and 19 Land. I'm assuming some number of Underground Seas are missing, not sure what else. Generally looks good, although with all of these lists I always want more Maelstrom Pulses, for extra token-killing ability and general versatility.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
yes, 4 underground seas are missing. and if DMel counted right, one other thing; not sure how that works though. i don't see anything he has extra of, but Sam's list doesn't have the 2 pierce Nick's does.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Still new to this archetype, but I enjoy it a lot.
I Feel the same. I'm using the old time tombstalker as a finisher. Without him thes games can easily slip through my hands.
It's been confirmed as +2 pierce / +4 Sea to what I posted
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Adding questionable cards to the deck isn't the correct answer. I suggest you just keep practicing with the deck to get the hang of it. Considering, I always felt that this deck had plenty of win conditions when I would play it. Goodluck.
Edit: As for adding more creatures other then snapcaster mages, I don't see any good reason to unless you are going to cut the innocent bloods but I feel innocent blood is very strong right now due to nimble mongoose being extremely popular. While sure you can play Diabolic edict but I don't want to risk being time walked by a spell snare from a RUG thresh player. Well, at least I have came to that conclusion anyway, I am not sure about the rest of you. Obviously, we are going to have our card choice differences. *Shrugs*
But I agree with Kevin. Winning isn't too hard with this deck as it stands. I run a different build than Nick's, however, but still no extra win-cons. I'm currently trying out a slightly altered list though, which might become my actual current one.